bars</tle><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_65hRV2Qwn" class="css-1fxvzwo" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_ILVvi2tqx" class="css-1wnday1" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC"><rect x="34" width="6" height="36" id="el_qw_T_tngXw"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_p_9Pm85Ac" class="css-fwki7z" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_WxG3R40yd" class="css-t3i5e6" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU"><rect x="22.67" width="6" height="36" id="el_lf9GrROk6j"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_kYNRGDfcw" class="css-t9te0w" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_3c3bzSjOJ" class="css-1r5375t" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw"><rect x="11.33" width="6" height="36" id="el_-iueO8klO0"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_y_fKcpSxn" class="css-qknaag" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_R6bNB6_Ys" class="css-1vd04" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC"><rect width="6" height="36" id="el_dS5TKNZZ5w"></rect></g></g></g></svg></div><div><div class="css-1t7yl1y">0:00<!-- -->/<!-- -->39:27</div><div class="css-og85jy">-<!-- -->39:27</div></div></div></div></hear><div class="css-uzyn7p"><div class="css-1vxyw"><p class="css-1nng8z9">transcript</p><h2 class="css-9wqu2x">In Rsia, Gay People Are Routely Targeted. That’s Why This Ukraian Soldier Is Fightg.</h2><h4 class="css-qsd3hm">When Put vad, Oleksandr Zhuhan chose to fend a untry that hasn’t always fend him.</h4><time dateTime="2022-07-07T09:00:08.000Z" class="css-1e605">2022-07-07T05:00:08-04:00</time></div><dl class="css-p98d0w"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lulu garcia-navarro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">From The earlit days of the war Ukrae, we’ve seen the imag of everyday Ukraians signg up to fend their untry agast the Rsian vasn leavg behd the liv they’d been livg jt days before. Wars n be ung that way wh cizens g together agast a shared enemy, puttg their differenc asi. Oleksandr Zhuhan, Sashko for short, was one of those who joed Ukrae’s volunteer forc. He’s gay, and for him, Put’s Rsia held particular terror. Gay people are routely targeted their, arrted whout e, even tortured. And among the reasons Put gave for vadg Ukrae, he said the untry had embraced valu, quote, “ntrary to human nature.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But Sashko had also experienced homophobia wh Ukrae the years leadg up to the war. So when he started talkg to my lleague, Courtney Ste the early days of the fightg, he was facg dual fears a future unr Rsia, but also how he might be treated by the soldiers he was servg alongsi. From “New York Tim Opn,” this is “First Person.” I’m Lulu Garcia-Navarro. Today, Sashko and the fight for his future Ukrae.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Hi, Courtney. Today is lmer than was yterday, but still ’s not safe here. Anyway —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">When we first started talkg, Sashko was too by to get on the phone.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN We hear bumpg sounds like every 15 mut or every half an hour.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">He was jt a uple of days to his enlistment, and the were the early days of the war when Rsia was shellg Kyiv. His un was statned what had been a mall there.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN And we are sleepg now next to the wdow shop. It looks somehow surrealistic bee we see that betiful cloth and we are wearg the same cloth that we me here .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I asked him to send me voice memos whenever he had a ee mute. And what most me through was jt how disorientg this all was for him.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I haven’t — I hadn’t held a gun my life until the 24th of Febary. I skipped all the lsons of —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">In Ukrae, boys learn how to shoot guns school. But Sashko never wanted any part of that sort of thg. He’d never imaged fightg a war, even up to the moment he enlisted alongsi the partner he lls his hband, though they n’t be legally married.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We didn’t thk that we would be given guns. We thought that we would do somethg like, I don’t know, okg or cleang or rryg heavy thgs, somethg like that. My hband is a director, and I am an actor and a director and a playwright. We are very stereotypilly gay, if I n put this way, like we are a gay uple who are vegans and we are very anti, I don’t know, war.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Or at least they had been, then Rsia vad. Sashko and Antona spent the night of the vasn hidg their bathroom, weighg whether to enlist.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">For both of , was a very difficult cisn bee we ed to avoid plac where there are lots of manly men, like stereotypilly heterosexual men who want to fight. And we have met vlence agast gay people before and was difficult.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But the day after Rsia vad when beme clear jt how ser the suatn was, both Sashko and Antona signed up. They weren’t tellg anyone they were together though.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">There was a suatn when a man om our un me up to and asked, so are you brothers or iends? And sce he only gave like two optns, I said iends very quickly. But then I was sorry and I kept thkg to myself, what would have happened if I had said we are hband and hband? What would have changed? I’m not sure.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">In Ukrae, boys learned how to shoot guns school. But Sashko never wanted any part of that sort of thg he’d never imaged fightg a war, even up to the moment he enlisted alongsi the partner he lls his hband, though they n’t be legally married.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I grew up a small town the Central Ukrae. When I was born, was still the Soviet Unn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">As a kid, Sashko spoke Rsian school. Then 1991 when he was seven, Ukrae clared s pennce. But wasn’t a big patrtic moment Sashko’s memory. What he remembers is the enomic llapse that followed.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">People had to survive and they did different thgs, like some people stole, some people — I don’t the word for that. They did very bad thgs to survive and to get some food for their children.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sashko and his parents lived an apartment block wh a shared urtyard.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All the kids knew one another om the moment they were born. And I knew that there were some boys that my mom said, you mtn’t be iends wh those boys bee they smoke and their parents are not a very good fay. Some of them smoked cigarett begng at the age of five I suppose.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. Yeah. That’s te.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sashko wasn’t that kd of kid though. He was a le follower.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I was really very out of touch wh the realy I thk. I mean, I didn’t know much about sexualy, about homosexualy, or anythg like this. I really like to draw, and I drew thgs like every day. I had albums. Do you do you say album or notebooks?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Notebooks.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Filled wh sketch. Yeah. And I had a secret notebook where I drew all like naked, people naked men. And I was about, I don’t know, 10 or 11 years old. And my mom found and she said, oh my god, what was that? I was so ashamed. And she said that was really a bad thg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That was the msage Sashko got om basilly everyone growg up.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Homosexualy was somethg that you should be ashamed of. And was somethg that people prison, you know, prisoners ed to punish other prisoners. Do make sense what I’m sayg?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So wasn’t like that people were actually gay. It was jt a punishment.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. Yeah. Or whenever you heard the word homosexualy, was nsired some of the world’s biggt threats, you know, like homosexualy atomic war.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And given that, when he left his hometown and went to Kyiv for llege, he stayed the closet. But his send year, he fell love wh his roommate who was straight.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">One day I jt cid that, oh my god, if he don’t love me then I have no more reason to live. I know now that was very stupid, but I was 16. So I got all the dgs that I had, I mix them wh alhol and I drank them all. And at first, I fated, but then my iends found me and they lled the ambulance.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">He end up the hospal. They lled his mom to take him home.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And of urse, she started askg qutns, and I had to tell her.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">How did she rpond?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">She said, ’s OK, I love you. Maybe one day you’ll meet a woman and you’ll have children and I’ll pray for you. Let’s pray together. And I said, oh my god, mom, don’t. Please, I — and that was like send g out. I said, I don’t believe God. I’m an atheist. Yeah. And then some years later, I’m a vegan. And you know, like was a bgo, gay vegan atheist. No more hope for mom.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Which one was harst for her, the atheist, the veganism, or the beg gay?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t thk that she accepted anythg, any of the.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">When he fished llege, Sashko stayed Kyiv. He met some other gay people, but he said was still too early to ll a muny. He started datg, but didn’t always go well.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">One of them was a crimal, so that was that bad. Yeah. And so I embraced that some people fd their partners life and some people don’t. Some people die lonely. And stopped srg me bee before that, I thought that was one of my biggt prri, you know, to fd a partner, to make fay, and so on.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Then 2014, Sashko got a msage on a datg se.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And at that stage, I met Antona. I looked through his profile and I found out that he was to theater and that he was a refugee om Crimea. And that looked tertg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Antona recently began intifyg as non-bary and g she and her pronouns. But Sashko still go back and forth.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">He or she, yeah, I’m still nfg the thgs. We arranged a meetg. It wasn’t a date. It was a meetg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They nnected at a big moment Ukrae, the moment a lot of Ukraians say was the actual begng of this war. The Ukraian print at the time, who Put supported, had jt fled to Rsia after months of protts forced him om office. Wh days, Rsian troops moved to occupy Crimea. And like a lot of L.G.B.T.Q. people there, Antona fled and end up Kyiv.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We met on the bridge which is non-existent now. And we spend the night like talkg and drkg ffee, talkg about children, about theater and all kds of thgs. And was like, I don’t know how many hours. And that’s how we met. I thk that talkg to him and spendg evengs and nights talkg about what’s right and what’s wrong ma me the person I am today.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Not long after they met, Sashko says he and Antona cid to stop speakg Rsian. And they helped create a theater group that performed piec llg out Rsian aggrsn Crimea and homophobia wh Rsian culture. Outsi the theater, they were also llg on Ukrae to regnize L.G.B.T.Q. rights and takg part some of the earlit Pri celebratns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk was 2015, the biggt slogan of this Pri was that we exist. And there were like ls than 50 people and lots and lots and lots of the police.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sce then, Pri Kyiv has grown. In recent years, the para has attracted thoands of people, part of a broar liberalizatn, pecially among young people the ci. But wh that liberalizatn, there’s also been a backlash. Sashko told me about a night last November when he and Antona were approached by two men the street.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">First they me up to , and Antona was wearg a ty —</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">what’s this thg lled that’s not a stripe but ribbon? Oh, I fot the word.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Rabow?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Rabow. Y, rabow ribbon. Thanks. And I felt this danger right away the way they looked at . And they were like about 50 meters away, and the street was empty. And one of them started followg . And they started talkg to a very manner like, hey, are you fags? What are you wearg? Do you believe God? Are you patrts? And they started phg and so on. And that was the first time when all I am like anti-vlent person. If there is a chance for the words to work out, I ually e the words.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But then, one of the guys phed Antona to the ground.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I was like off. I went bananas. And I was so mad that I felt I uld tear those men wh my bare hands bee I was like, I don’t know where I got the strength. But was like the first, maybe the send time my life when I got to h a person right the face. And I felt so, I don’t know, empowered. That was the word. Like I h back, and they didn’t expect . Like, they thought that they were like no attackg to fags who uldn’t h back.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The attack was still h Sashko’s md when Rsian forc vad Ukrae jt a few months later. It was all part of what was weighg on him and Antona that night they spent huddled their bathroom nsirg their optns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I fely had doubts like, I was not aaid to go and fight, but I was really — I felt a great anxiety if I would f . And beg gay was part of thgs that gave me that anxiety. But on the send day when Rsia went full sle and when we unrstood that was not a joke, ’s gog to be for a long time, we uldn’t make any other choice really. What mattered was to protect our untry.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So that’s how Sashko and Antona me to enlist this war, fightg to protect a untry that hadn’t always protected them alongsi soldiers who peacetime might have been their enemi.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m not nsirg the optn of losg my eedom, bee for an L.G.B.T.Q. person to lose eedom, to get ptured by the Rsians is worse than ath, so I’ll be fightg until I w or I die.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Hi, Courtney. It’s the eighth of March, Tuday. So I’m gog to go on scribg what life has bee for me sce the war started.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Not long after he enlisted, Sashko sent me this voice memo.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN It’s been 13 days sce Rsia attacked Ukrae for no reason. I’m sick now, and almost everyone our un is eher sick or gettg better.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And ’s bee ’s always ld here. We’re sleepg on the floor now sleepg bags. But I’m not plag, ’s jt that you ask me to scribe what is like here. I go patrollg three tim a day.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">On the patrols, Sashko and Antona were often together but still keepg their relatnship a secret.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN The manr is very loyal. Well, he don’t know or he don’t want to know that we are a gay uple. We don’t touch or we don’t hold hands, we don’t hug each other. And the riskit thg that my hband has done sce the first day he kissed me on the forehead when I said that I probably had temperature. And he prsed his lips agast my forehead like jt to check if I had temperature. But was a kiss, I knew .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">He’s the one person who n —</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t know, who n lm me down and ask if I’m OK.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hello, Sashko? OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Courtney, n you hear me now?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I n hear you. Can you hear me?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Oh, that’s perfect. Yeah.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">As wter turned to sprg, Rsia ntued to foc a lot of s air power on Kyiv. At this pot, the volunteer forc were largely playg a support role away om the fightg. So Sashko and Antona weren’t seeg active bat, but the war was all around them.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">How are you?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Well, ’s been tough time. Tonight, there were like three regns where the bombs fell, and one of them was right next to , next to our base. But ’s OK. We’re alive and more or ls healthy. In 15 mut, I’ll have to go to unpack the big rs wh provisns and ammunn. So that’s our job. That’s the riskit thg I’ve done so far. We’re jt fendg the base. And how are you feelg about that beg your role right now?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN I’m OK. Well, on the first day when we me here, lots of guys, they were like, wow, I want to go and fight and so on. And I was like, I’m pretty much OK wh the thgs as they are now. And the terrible thg is that we are gettg ed to this state of thgs. And I don’t want this to be my ual state.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The day before yterday, we went to the place where we learn to shoot guns. We have Kalashnikovs, and I was thkg about my old sewg mache bee I work the theater so I n saw stum for a theater place. And I was thkg about, well, I ed to hate to oil my sewg mache, but I would love to do now stead of oilg my gun. So was like, you know, those flashbacks about what life ed to be.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hi, Courtney. It’s been a month and two days sce the begng of the war, and I have been thkg a lot about one hell of a time, which happened not so often bee we are eher too by or too exhsted to thk.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">There are thgs that prs me, but there are good thgs though.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">For example, some people om our un, they add as iends on Facebook. And one of them me up to me the other day and he said, I read your post on Facebook. And he said, I didn’t put a like below this post, but I really want to say that I thk ’s a great post and I liked .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">In the post, Sashko talked about the siari between the fight for L.G.B.T.Q. rights and Ukraian pennce. He said that where Rsia was driven by fear and hate, he hoped Ukrae would follow a different path after the war, a path of tolerance and acceptance.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN So was a good thg, and that really ma my day.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">For the next few weeks, Sashko’s un stayed the same warehoe Kyiv, protectg ammunn and ruppli for the regular army troops that were phg the Rsians back other parts of the cy. Then April, Ukraian forc retook the suburbs, plac like Bucha, where hundreds of civilians were tortured and killed. Sashko msaged that he and Antona had been moved and were now dog a different job but still maly on guard duty. A few days later, we got on the phone.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Hi, Courtney.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">antona ramanova</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hello, Courtney.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I got to hear Antona for the first time.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Yeah, Courtney, the thg is, Antona speaks very ltle English.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">antona ramanova</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">My English is not very good.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Antona jt listened while Sashko and I talked. Sashko said that now he assumed people their un unrstood that he and Antona were a uple, but they still weren’t publicly acknowledgg their relatnship.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN But sometim we like, I don’t know, touch fgers or — well, that’s mostly . We touch fgers. That’s .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I saw on your Facebook pag that you have rated your guns wh stickers. OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Yeah.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It feels like a small act of ristance.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Yeah. And our guns really stand out om the other guns.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Can you scribe them? OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Y. So like there’s a rabow and a unirn and a peapple.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Do other people rate their guns or is jt you guys?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN No, not really. We are the only on wh the stickers. Now, I saw one more person wh a sticker, but was like a sticker of a skull. And we have those optimistic, cute stickers.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And has your manr, anyone ever mentned like as a secury ncern or qutn you about ? OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Yeah, yeah, yeah. One person me up to me like two days ago and said, that sticker has lots of whe and ’s gog to be a problem if we fight the darkns like uld be seen om afar. And I said, OK, so when we fight the darkns, I’ll take off.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">At the end of April, Put clared victory Mariupol, and Rsian troops ntued to ph to Eastern and Southern Ukrae where hundreds of Ukraian troops were dyg every day. Sashko sent me a text msage. Their un had been given a choice, they uld pack up and go volunteer Kyiv as civilians or they uld help bolster the ary’s ranks and jo another battaln and be sent to the ont l the south.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">This time, the cisn wasn’t so clear. Sashko thought that he uld be more eful as a volunteer. But for Antona, returng to Kyiv was out of the qutn. Sashko wrote me that Antona was tent on gog wh or whout him. So he cid he was gog too. But they weren’t sent right away.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN We’re wag here for the transfer.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Weeks passed. Then at the end of May, Sashko got back touch.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Hi, Courtney. Sorry for not rpondg to you right away.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thgs had been by, he said.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN And on Wednday, that’s tomorrow, we are gog to Mykolaiv. Mykolaiv is a cy the south of Ukrae. It’s close to Ossa.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mykolaiv, Sashko explaed, was part of the New ontle the war. Like Mariupol to the east, the Rsians had managed to cut off water to Mykolaiv, forcg many of the cy’s half a ln rints to flee.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Before leavg for the south, Sashko and Antona were sent home to Kyiv for a few days. Their apartment hadn’t been damaged the shellg. And for the first time the three months sce they signed up for the terrorial fense, they were able to sleep their own bed. And wh the Rsians no longer anywhere near the cy, f and shops were open aga.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN We were walkg around the cy, and I felt like I was walkg next to a fish tank lookg at people who are havg their latt. And the war seemed very real, but this life Kyiv, the peaceful life seemed like somethg impossible. And I uld physilly feel . I felt weak at my kne, and I had a strange feelg my stomach and everythg seemed so unstable.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I jt n’t pull myself together. Everythg feels like a very bad, meangls movie whout the end. And the worst thg, the thg that I’m aaid most is that the war is gog to be for like two, three, five, eight years more.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sashko and Antona met up wh a iend om the theater world while Kyiv. But Sashko uld only thk about war. He no longer related to his past life, and he was distracted by his upg ployment.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN And the thg that I’m worried about is that the new battaln, maybe there will be like real army people wh strong hierarchy. I have an ia that Mykolaiv that new battaln, I’m gog to be more open about my sexualy. Like I’m not gog to wa if anyone asks or I’m not gog to let them be gusg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">A few days later, I heard om Sashko aga. They had ma to Mykolaiv.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Hey there, Courtney. Hope you’re hearg me OK.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">They’d begun diggg trench anticipatn of a new Rsian offensive.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN And today when we met our manr, and he was like gettg acquated, speakg to , givg his speech, he said, I’ve had gay guys my un before and was no problem wh them. So if I see or hear any s of homophobia, this un is not a place for homophobia. Is that clear? And we are not gog to talk about that aga.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">He said, I don’t re who you are or what you do until you break the l. So if you’re a good fighter, then I’m OK wh you.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Rsian troops were sendg a near-nstant stream of bombs and missil toward Mykolaiv. Huge swath of the cy had been burned to the ground or pletely stroyed. But on one quiet eveng, I was able to talk to Sashko by phone. And I asked him to tell me more about what happened wh his manr.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN He said, I know that there are guys our un who are gay. Like, he jt looked at me and I raised my hand like, here I am, hello.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">He ma the thgs clear, you see.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And how did the other people the un rpond?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN They were like, OK. Yeah. They didn’t say much. I mean, the way they talk, they are not like some narrow-md, homophobic savag. What I expected bee I expected the worst. Army is still a world of manly men, but we are not — I mean, I don’t feel threatened physilly and I feel much more nfint now. I really feel like here I jt have to be like a good soldier. And that’s like some guarantee that at least the manrs will protect me if anythg happens. But I’m sure that nothg bad will happen.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">A few weeks later, I got this msage om Sashko. OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Hey, Courtney. Sorry for takg so long to rpond to your msage. Here’s jt another piece of rmatn, which I thk is important to see a bigger picture of what’s happeng here Ukrae. So yterday I thk, that was yterday, L.G.B.T.Q. person was beaten.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And that happened when the guy was gog to give an terview about his boyiend who had died this Rsian-Ukraian war. And at that time, a group of young men me up to him and they attacked him. And they started shoutg homophobic thgs and they beat him.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t know what to add.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Over many months of nversatn, Sashko and I had talked a lot about his hop for the future and for the future of Ukrae. So many of them revolved around his uncertaty of what versn of the untry would greet him and Antona if and when the war fally end. But one time, I’d gotten a different answer.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Do you thk about the future?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Yeah, I sometim stop and thk about the future. And I’m tryg not to make some great plans like, oh, I’m gog to wre a play about this war or I’m gog to, I don’t know, to wre a song. Jt very, very small thgs, down to earth thgs. Like my mom, she liv the Central Ukrae.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And they bought a hoe the village. And they went there yterday for the first time. And she sent me a vio and she said, we’re wag for you and Antona to e and live there and repair bee the hoe is very old. And there’s a garn wh u tre. And I was, oh my God, yeah. I’d really love to do that, mom.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lulu garcia-navarro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">“First Person” is a productn of New York Tim Opn. We’ll be back next Thursday wh a new episo. Today’s episo was produced by Courtney Ste. It was eded by Stephanie Joyce and Lisa Tob wh help om Kaari Pk. Engeerg by Isaac Jon. Origal mic by Isaac Jon, Pat McCker and Carole Sabourd.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Fact-checkg by Mary Marge Locker. The rt of the first person team clus Cristal Duhaime, Christa Djossa, Olivia Natt, Derek Arthur and Jason Pagano. Special thanks to Krista Samulewski, Shannon Bta, Kate Sclair, Jefey Miranda, Pla Szuchman, Irene Noguchi, Patrick Healy and Katie Kgsbury.</p></dd></dl></div></div></div></div><div style="posn:absolute;width:0;height:0;visibily:hidn;display:none"></div><hear class="css-1vwfk9f" data-breakpot=""><div style="width:100%" data-ttid="flt-layout"><div style="background-image:url()" class="css-18qqsen e1llfg0"><div class="css-1hmsypo e1llfg2"><div class="css-131hid3 e1llfg3"><div class="css-1uhi299 e1llfg1"></div><div class="css-1tloyb6"><div class="css-1kltdsh ehra6vc0"><a href=" class="css-2ne0py"><span class="css-1f76qa2"><img alt="First Person logo" src="><span>First Person</span></span></a></div></div><div class="css-1r0dpua e1llfg4"><div class="css-1gu519p edye5kn0"><div><h1 class="css-1xbyom1 edye5kn2">In Rsia, Gay People Are Routely Targeted. That’s Why This Ukraian Soldier Is Fightg.</h1><h2 class="css-rlih edye5kn3">When Put vad, Oleksandr Zhuhan chose to fend a untry that hasn’t always fend him.</h2></div><span class="css-lsnb14 edye5kn4"></span><button type="button" class="css-w62hzm" aria-haspopup="te" aria-label="Show Aud Transcript"><div class="css-1vd84sn"><svg xmlns=" width="24" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 20" fill="#F8F8F8"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M0 0H24V20H0V0ZM3 7H21V9H3V7ZM21 11H3V13H21V11ZM3 15H21V17H3V15ZM11 3H3V5H11V3Z" fill="#F8F8F8"></path></svg><span class="css-16bt4xd">Transcript</span></div></button></div><div class="css-1g7y0i5 e1drnplw0"><button tabx="100" class="css-1rtlxy" type="button" aria-label="close"><svg width="60" height="60" viewBox="0 0 60 60" fill="none"><circle cx="30" cy="30" r="30" fill="whe" fill-opacy="0.9"></circle><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M38.4844 20.1006L39.8986 21.5148L21.5138 39.8996L20.0996 38.4854L38.4844 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M21.5156 20.1006L20.1014 21.5148L38.4862 39.8996L39.9004 38.4854L21.5156 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path></svg></button><div class="css-rdbib0 e1drnplw1"></div><div class="css-18ow4sz e1drnplw2"><div aria-labelledby="modal-tle" role="regn"><hear class="css-1bzlfz"><div class="css-mln36k" id="modal-tle">transcript</div><button type="button" class="css-1igvuto"><div class="css-f40pzg"></div><span>Back to First Person</span></button><div class="css-f6lhej" data-ttid="transcript-playback-ntrols"><div class="css-1ialerq"><button tabx="99" type="button" class="css-1t9gw" aria-label="play"><svg xmlns=" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M8 13.7683V6L14.5 9.88415L8 13.7683Z" fill="var(--lor-ntent-sendary,#363636)"></path><circle cx="10" cy="10" r="9.25" stroke="var(--lor-stroke-primary,#121212)" stroke-width="1.5"></circle></svg></button><div class="css-1701swk"><svg xmlns=" viewBox="0 0 40 36" id="el_0kpS9qL_S"><tle>bars

*BEAR-MAGAZINE.COM* GAY UKRAINE SOLDIERS

bars</tle><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_65hRV2Qwn" class="css-1fxvzwo" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_ILVvi2tqx" class="css-1wnday1" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC"><rect x="34" width="6" height="36" id="el_qw_T_tngXw"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_p_9Pm85Ac" class="css-fwki7z" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_WxG3R40yd" class="css-t3i5e6" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU"><rect x="22.67" width="6" height="36" id="el_lf9GrROk6j"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_kYNRGDfcw" class="css-t9te0w" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_3c3bzSjOJ" class="css-1r5375t" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw"><rect x="11.33" width="6" height="36" id="el_-iueO8klO0"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_y_fKcpSxn" class="css-qknaag" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_R6bNB6_Ys" class="css-1vd04" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC"><rect width="6" height="36" id="el_dS5TKNZZ5w"></rect></g></g></g></svg></div><div><div class="css-1t7yl1y">0:00<!-- -->/<!-- -->39:27</div><div class="css-og85jy">-<!-- -->39:27</div></div></div></div></hear><div class="css-uzyn7p"><div class="css-1vxyw"><p class="css-1nng8z9">transcript</p><h2 class="css-9wqu2x">In Rsia, Gay People Are Routely Targeted. That’s Why This Ukraian Soldier Is Fightg.</h2><h4 class="css-qsd3hm">When Put vad, Oleksandr Zhuhan chose to fend a untry that hasn’t always fend him.</h4><time dateTime="2022-07-07T09:00:08.000Z" class="css-1e605">2022-07-07T05:00:08-04:00</time></div><dl class="css-p98d0w"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lulu garcia-navarro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">From The earlit days of the war Ukrae, we’ve seen the imag of everyday Ukraians signg up to fend their untry agast the Rsian vasn leavg behd the liv they’d been livg jt days before. Wars n be ung that way wh cizens g together agast a shared enemy, puttg their differenc asi. Oleksandr Zhuhan, Sashko for short, was one of those who joed Ukrae’s volunteer forc. He’s gay, and for him, Put’s Rsia held particular terror. Gay people are routely targeted their, arrted whout e, even tortured. And among the reasons Put gave for vadg Ukrae, he said the untry had embraced valu, quote, “ntrary to human nature.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But Sashko had also experienced homophobia wh Ukrae the years leadg up to the war. So when he started talkg to my lleague, Courtney Ste the early days of the fightg, he was facg dual fears a future unr Rsia, but also how he might be treated by the soldiers he was servg alongsi. From “New York Tim Opn,” this is “First Person.” I’m Lulu Garcia-Navarro. Today, Sashko and the fight for his future Ukrae.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Hi, Courtney. Today is lmer than was yterday, but still ’s not safe here. Anyway —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">When we first started talkg, Sashko was too by to get on the phone.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN We hear bumpg sounds like every 15 mut or every half an hour.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">He was jt a uple of days to his enlistment, and the were the early days of the war when Rsia was shellg Kyiv. His un was statned what had been a mall there.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN And we are sleepg now next to the wdow shop. It looks somehow surrealistic bee we see that betiful cloth and we are wearg the same cloth that we me here .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I asked him to send me voice memos whenever he had a ee mute. And what most me through was jt how disorientg this all was for him.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I haven’t — I hadn’t held a gun my life until the 24th of Febary. I skipped all the lsons of —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">In Ukrae, boys learn how to shoot guns school. But Sashko never wanted any part of that sort of thg. He’d never imaged fightg a war, even up to the moment he enlisted alongsi the partner he lls his hband, though they n’t be legally married.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We didn’t thk that we would be given guns. We thought that we would do somethg like, I don’t know, okg or cleang or rryg heavy thgs, somethg like that. My hband is a director, and I am an actor and a director and a playwright. We are very stereotypilly gay, if I n put this way, like we are a gay uple who are vegans and we are very anti, I don’t know, war.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Or at least they had been, then Rsia vad. Sashko and Antona spent the night of the vasn hidg their bathroom, weighg whether to enlist.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">For both of , was a very difficult cisn bee we ed to avoid plac where there are lots of manly men, like stereotypilly heterosexual men who want to fight. And we have met vlence agast gay people before and was difficult.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But the day after Rsia vad when beme clear jt how ser the suatn was, both Sashko and Antona signed up. They weren’t tellg anyone they were together though.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">There was a suatn when a man om our un me up to and asked, so are you brothers or iends? And sce he only gave like two optns, I said iends very quickly. But then I was sorry and I kept thkg to myself, what would have happened if I had said we are hband and hband? What would have changed? I’m not sure.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">In Ukrae, boys learned how to shoot guns school. But Sashko never wanted any part of that sort of thg he’d never imaged fightg a war, even up to the moment he enlisted alongsi the partner he lls his hband, though they n’t be legally married.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I grew up a small town the Central Ukrae. When I was born, was still the Soviet Unn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">As a kid, Sashko spoke Rsian school. Then 1991 when he was seven, Ukrae clared s pennce. But wasn’t a big patrtic moment Sashko’s memory. What he remembers is the enomic llapse that followed.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">People had to survive and they did different thgs, like some people stole, some people — I don’t the word for that. They did very bad thgs to survive and to get some food for their children.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sashko and his parents lived an apartment block wh a shared urtyard.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All the kids knew one another om the moment they were born. And I knew that there were some boys that my mom said, you mtn’t be iends wh those boys bee they smoke and their parents are not a very good fay. Some of them smoked cigarett begng at the age of five I suppose.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. Yeah. That’s te.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sashko wasn’t that kd of kid though. He was a le follower.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I was really very out of touch wh the realy I thk. I mean, I didn’t know much about sexualy, about homosexualy, or anythg like this. I really like to draw, and I drew thgs like every day. I had albums. Do you do you say album or notebooks?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Notebooks.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Filled wh sketch. Yeah. And I had a secret notebook where I drew all like naked, people naked men. And I was about, I don’t know, 10 or 11 years old. And my mom found and she said, oh my god, what was that? I was so ashamed. And she said that was really a bad thg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That was the msage Sashko got om basilly everyone growg up.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Homosexualy was somethg that you should be ashamed of. And was somethg that people prison, you know, prisoners ed to punish other prisoners. Do make sense what I’m sayg?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So wasn’t like that people were actually gay. It was jt a punishment.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. Yeah. Or whenever you heard the word homosexualy, was nsired some of the world’s biggt threats, you know, like homosexualy atomic war.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And given that, when he left his hometown and went to Kyiv for llege, he stayed the closet. But his send year, he fell love wh his roommate who was straight.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">One day I jt cid that, oh my god, if he don’t love me then I have no more reason to live. I know now that was very stupid, but I was 16. So I got all the dgs that I had, I mix them wh alhol and I drank them all. And at first, I fated, but then my iends found me and they lled the ambulance.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">He end up the hospal. They lled his mom to take him home.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And of urse, she started askg qutns, and I had to tell her.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">How did she rpond?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">She said, ’s OK, I love you. Maybe one day you’ll meet a woman and you’ll have children and I’ll pray for you. Let’s pray together. And I said, oh my god, mom, don’t. Please, I — and that was like send g out. I said, I don’t believe God. I’m an atheist. Yeah. And then some years later, I’m a vegan. And you know, like was a bgo, gay vegan atheist. No more hope for mom.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Which one was harst for her, the atheist, the veganism, or the beg gay?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t thk that she accepted anythg, any of the.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">When he fished llege, Sashko stayed Kyiv. He met some other gay people, but he said was still too early to ll a muny. He started datg, but didn’t always go well.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">One of them was a crimal, so that was that bad. Yeah. And so I embraced that some people fd their partners life and some people don’t. Some people die lonely. And stopped srg me bee before that, I thought that was one of my biggt prri, you know, to fd a partner, to make fay, and so on.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Then 2014, Sashko got a msage on a datg se.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And at that stage, I met Antona. I looked through his profile and I found out that he was to theater and that he was a refugee om Crimea. And that looked tertg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Antona recently began intifyg as non-bary and g she and her pronouns. But Sashko still go back and forth.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">He or she, yeah, I’m still nfg the thgs. We arranged a meetg. It wasn’t a date. It was a meetg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They nnected at a big moment Ukrae, the moment a lot of Ukraians say was the actual begng of this war. The Ukraian print at the time, who Put supported, had jt fled to Rsia after months of protts forced him om office. Wh days, Rsian troops moved to occupy Crimea. And like a lot of L.G.B.T.Q. people there, Antona fled and end up Kyiv.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We met on the bridge which is non-existent now. And we spend the night like talkg and drkg ffee, talkg about children, about theater and all kds of thgs. And was like, I don’t know how many hours. And that’s how we met. I thk that talkg to him and spendg evengs and nights talkg about what’s right and what’s wrong ma me the person I am today.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Not long after they met, Sashko says he and Antona cid to stop speakg Rsian. And they helped create a theater group that performed piec llg out Rsian aggrsn Crimea and homophobia wh Rsian culture. Outsi the theater, they were also llg on Ukrae to regnize L.G.B.T.Q. rights and takg part some of the earlit Pri celebratns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk was 2015, the biggt slogan of this Pri was that we exist. And there were like ls than 50 people and lots and lots and lots of the police.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sce then, Pri Kyiv has grown. In recent years, the para has attracted thoands of people, part of a broar liberalizatn, pecially among young people the ci. But wh that liberalizatn, there’s also been a backlash. Sashko told me about a night last November when he and Antona were approached by two men the street.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">First they me up to , and Antona was wearg a ty —</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">what’s this thg lled that’s not a stripe but ribbon? Oh, I fot the word.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Rabow?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Rabow. Y, rabow ribbon. Thanks. And I felt this danger right away the way they looked at . And they were like about 50 meters away, and the street was empty. And one of them started followg . And they started talkg to a very manner like, hey, are you fags? What are you wearg? Do you believe God? Are you patrts? And they started phg and so on. And that was the first time when all I am like anti-vlent person. If there is a chance for the words to work out, I ually e the words.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But then, one of the guys phed Antona to the ground.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I was like off. I went bananas. And I was so mad that I felt I uld tear those men wh my bare hands bee I was like, I don’t know where I got the strength. But was like the first, maybe the send time my life when I got to h a person right the face. And I felt so, I don’t know, empowered. That was the word. Like I h back, and they didn’t expect . Like, they thought that they were like no attackg to fags who uldn’t h back.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The attack was still h Sashko’s md when Rsian forc vad Ukrae jt a few months later. It was all part of what was weighg on him and Antona that night they spent huddled their bathroom nsirg their optns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I fely had doubts like, I was not aaid to go and fight, but I was really — I felt a great anxiety if I would f . And beg gay was part of thgs that gave me that anxiety. But on the send day when Rsia went full sle and when we unrstood that was not a joke, ’s gog to be for a long time, we uldn’t make any other choice really. What mattered was to protect our untry.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So that’s how Sashko and Antona me to enlist this war, fightg to protect a untry that hadn’t always protected them alongsi soldiers who peacetime might have been their enemi.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">oleksandr zhuhan</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m not nsirg the optn of losg my eedom, bee for an L.G.B.T.Q. person to lose eedom, to get ptured by the Rsians is worse than ath, so I’ll be fightg until I w or I die.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Hi, Courtney. It’s the eighth of March, Tuday. So I’m gog to go on scribg what life has bee for me sce the war started.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Not long after he enlisted, Sashko sent me this voice memo.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN It’s been 13 days sce Rsia attacked Ukrae for no reason. I’m sick now, and almost everyone our un is eher sick or gettg better.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And ’s bee ’s always ld here. We’re sleepg on the floor now sleepg bags. But I’m not plag, ’s jt that you ask me to scribe what is like here. I go patrollg three tim a day.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">On the patrols, Sashko and Antona were often together but still keepg their relatnship a secret.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN The manr is very loyal. Well, he don’t know or he don’t want to know that we are a gay uple. We don’t touch or we don’t hold hands, we don’t hug each other. And the riskit thg that my hband has done sce the first day he kissed me on the forehead when I said that I probably had temperature. And he prsed his lips agast my forehead like jt to check if I had temperature. But was a kiss, I knew .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">He’s the one person who n —</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t know, who n lm me down and ask if I’m OK.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hello, Sashko? OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Courtney, n you hear me now?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I n hear you. Can you hear me?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Oh, that’s perfect. Yeah.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">As wter turned to sprg, Rsia ntued to foc a lot of s air power on Kyiv. At this pot, the volunteer forc were largely playg a support role away om the fightg. So Sashko and Antona weren’t seeg active bat, but the war was all around them.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">How are you?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Well, ’s been tough time. Tonight, there were like three regns where the bombs fell, and one of them was right next to , next to our base. But ’s OK. We’re alive and more or ls healthy. In 15 mut, I’ll have to go to unpack the big rs wh provisns and ammunn. So that’s our job. That’s the riskit thg I’ve done so far. We’re jt fendg the base. And how are you feelg about that beg your role right now?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN I’m OK. Well, on the first day when we me here, lots of guys, they were like, wow, I want to go and fight and so on. And I was like, I’m pretty much OK wh the thgs as they are now. And the terrible thg is that we are gettg ed to this state of thgs. And I don’t want this to be my ual state.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The day before yterday, we went to the place where we learn to shoot guns. We have Kalashnikovs, and I was thkg about my old sewg mache bee I work the theater so I n saw stum for a theater place. And I was thkg about, well, I ed to hate to oil my sewg mache, but I would love to do now stead of oilg my gun. So was like, you know, those flashbacks about what life ed to be.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hi, Courtney. It’s been a month and two days sce the begng of the war, and I have been thkg a lot about one hell of a time, which happened not so often bee we are eher too by or too exhsted to thk.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">There are thgs that prs me, but there are good thgs though.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">For example, some people om our un, they add as iends on Facebook. And one of them me up to me the other day and he said, I read your post on Facebook. And he said, I didn’t put a like below this post, but I really want to say that I thk ’s a great post and I liked .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">In the post, Sashko talked about the siari between the fight for L.G.B.T.Q. rights and Ukraian pennce. He said that where Rsia was driven by fear and hate, he hoped Ukrae would follow a different path after the war, a path of tolerance and acceptance.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN So was a good thg, and that really ma my day.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">For the next few weeks, Sashko’s un stayed the same warehoe Kyiv, protectg ammunn and ruppli for the regular army troops that were phg the Rsians back other parts of the cy. Then April, Ukraian forc retook the suburbs, plac like Bucha, where hundreds of civilians were tortured and killed. Sashko msaged that he and Antona had been moved and were now dog a different job but still maly on guard duty. A few days later, we got on the phone.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Hi, Courtney.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">antona ramanova</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hello, Courtney.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I got to hear Antona for the first time.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Yeah, Courtney, the thg is, Antona speaks very ltle English.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">antona ramanova</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">My English is not very good.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">urtney ste</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Antona jt listened while Sashko and I talked. Sashko said that now he assumed people their un unrstood that he and Antona were a uple, but they still weren’t publicly acknowledgg their relatnship.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN But sometim we like, I don’t know, touch fgers or — well, that’s mostly . We touch fgers. That’s .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I saw on your Facebook pag that you have rated your guns wh stickers. OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Yeah.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It feels like a small act of ristance.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Yeah. And our guns really stand out om the other guns.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Can you scribe them? OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Y. So like there’s a rabow and a unirn and a peapple.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Do other people rate their guns or is jt you guys?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN No, not really. We are the only on wh the stickers. Now, I saw one more person wh a sticker, but was like a sticker of a skull. And we have those optimistic, cute stickers.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And has your manr, anyone ever mentned like as a secury ncern or qutn you about ? OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Yeah, yeah, yeah. One person me up to me like two days ago and said, that sticker has lots of whe and ’s gog to be a problem if we fight the darkns like uld be seen om afar. And I said, OK, so when we fight the darkns, I’ll take off.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">At the end of April, Put clared victory Mariupol, and Rsian troops ntued to ph to Eastern and Southern Ukrae where hundreds of Ukraian troops were dyg every day. Sashko sent me a text msage. Their un had been given a choice, they uld pack up and go volunteer Kyiv as civilians or they uld help bolster the ary’s ranks and jo another battaln and be sent to the ont l the south.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">This time, the cisn wasn’t so clear. Sashko thought that he uld be more eful as a volunteer. But for Antona, returng to Kyiv was out of the qutn. Sashko wrote me that Antona was tent on gog wh or whout him. So he cid he was gog too. But they weren’t sent right away.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN We’re wag here for the transfer.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Weeks passed. Then at the end of May, Sashko got back touch.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Hi, Courtney. Sorry for not rpondg to you right away.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thgs had been by, he said.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN And on Wednday, that’s tomorrow, we are gog to Mykolaiv. Mykolaiv is a cy the south of Ukrae. It’s close to Ossa.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mykolaiv, Sashko explaed, was part of the New ontle the war. Like Mariupol to the east, the Rsians had managed to cut off water to Mykolaiv, forcg many of the cy’s half a ln rints to flee.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Before leavg for the south, Sashko and Antona were sent home to Kyiv for a few days. Their apartment hadn’t been damaged the shellg. And for the first time the three months sce they signed up for the terrorial fense, they were able to sleep their own bed. And wh the Rsians no longer anywhere near the cy, f and shops were open aga.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN We were walkg around the cy, and I felt like I was walkg next to a fish tank lookg at people who are havg their latt. And the war seemed very real, but this life Kyiv, the peaceful life seemed like somethg impossible. And I uld physilly feel . I felt weak at my kne, and I had a strange feelg my stomach and everythg seemed so unstable.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I jt n’t pull myself together. Everythg feels like a very bad, meangls movie whout the end. And the worst thg, the thg that I’m aaid most is that the war is gog to be for like two, three, five, eight years more.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sashko and Antona met up wh a iend om the theater world while Kyiv. But Sashko uld only thk about war. He no longer related to his past life, and he was distracted by his upg ployment.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN And the thg that I’m worried about is that the new battaln, maybe there will be like real army people wh strong hierarchy. I have an ia that Mykolaiv that new battaln, I’m gog to be more open about my sexualy. Like I’m not gog to wa if anyone asks or I’m not gog to let them be gusg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">A few days later, I heard om Sashko aga. They had ma to Mykolaiv.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Hey there, Courtney. Hope you’re hearg me OK.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">They’d begun diggg trench anticipatn of a new Rsian offensive.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN And today when we met our manr, and he was like gettg acquated, speakg to , givg his speech, he said, I’ve had gay guys my un before and was no problem wh them. So if I see or hear any s of homophobia, this un is not a place for homophobia. Is that clear? And we are not gog to talk about that aga.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">He said, I don’t re who you are or what you do until you break the l. So if you’re a good fighter, then I’m OK wh you.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Rsian troops were sendg a near-nstant stream of bombs and missil toward Mykolaiv. Huge swath of the cy had been burned to the ground or pletely stroyed. But on one quiet eveng, I was able to talk to Sashko by phone. And I asked him to tell me more about what happened wh his manr.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN He said, I know that there are guys our un who are gay. Like, he jt looked at me and I raised my hand like, here I am, hello.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">He ma the thgs clear, you see.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And how did the other people the un rpond?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN They were like, OK. Yeah. They didn’t say much. I mean, the way they talk, they are not like some narrow-md, homophobic savag. What I expected bee I expected the worst. Army is still a world of manly men, but we are not — I mean, I don’t feel threatened physilly and I feel much more nfint now. I really feel like here I jt have to be like a good soldier. And that’s like some guarantee that at least the manrs will protect me if anythg happens. But I’m sure that nothg bad will happen.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">A few weeks later, I got this msage om Sashko. OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Hey, Courtney. Sorry for takg so long to rpond to your msage. Here’s jt another piece of rmatn, which I thk is important to see a bigger picture of what’s happeng here Ukrae. So yterday I thk, that was yterday, L.G.B.T.Q. person was beaten.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And that happened when the guy was gog to give an terview about his boyiend who had died this Rsian-Ukraian war. And at that time, a group of young men me up to him and they attacked him. And they started shoutg homophobic thgs and they beat him.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t know what to add.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Over many months of nversatn, Sashko and I had talked a lot about his hop for the future and for the future of Ukrae. So many of them revolved around his uncertaty of what versn of the untry would greet him and Antona if and when the war fally end. But one time, I’d gotten a different answer.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Do you thk about the future?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OLEKSANDR ZHUHAN Yeah, I sometim stop and thk about the future. And I’m tryg not to make some great plans like, oh, I’m gog to wre a play about this war or I’m gog to, I don’t know, to wre a song. Jt very, very small thgs, down to earth thgs. Like my mom, she liv the Central Ukrae.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And they bought a hoe the village. And they went there yterday for the first time. And she sent me a vio and she said, we’re wag for you and Antona to e and live there and repair bee the hoe is very old. And there’s a garn wh u tre. And I was, oh my God, yeah. I’d really love to do that, mom.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lulu garcia-navarro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">“First Person” is a productn of New York Tim Opn. We’ll be back next Thursday wh a new episo. Today’s episo was produced by Courtney Ste. It was eded by Stephanie Joyce and Lisa Tob wh help om Kaari Pk. Engeerg by Isaac Jon. Origal mic by Isaac Jon, Pat McCker and Carole Sabourd.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Fact-checkg by Mary Marge Locker. The rt of the first person team clus Cristal Duhaime, Christa Djossa, Olivia Natt, Derek Arthur and Jason Pagano. Special thanks to Krista Samulewski, Shannon Bta, Kate Sclair, Jefey Miranda, Pla Szuchman, Irene Noguchi, Patrick Healy and Katie Kgsbury.</p></dd></dl></div></div></div></div><div style="posn:absolute;width:0;height:0;visibily:hidn;display:none"></div><hear class="css-1vwfk9f" data-breakpot=""><div style="width:100%" data-ttid="flt-layout"><div style="background-image:url()" class="css-18qqsen e1llfg0"><div class="css-1hmsypo e1llfg2"><div class="css-131hid3 e1llfg3"><div class="css-1uhi299 e1llfg1"></div><div class="css-1tloyb6"><div class="css-1kltdsh ehra6vc0"><a href=" class="css-2ne0py"><span class="css-1f76qa2"><img alt="First Person logo" src="><span>First Person</span></span></a></div></div><div class="css-1r0dpua e1llfg4"><div class="css-1gu519p edye5kn0"><div><h1 class="css-1xbyom1 edye5kn2">In Rsia, Gay People Are Routely Targeted. That’s Why This Ukraian Soldier Is Fightg.</h1><h2 class="css-rlih edye5kn3">When Put vad, Oleksandr Zhuhan chose to fend a untry that hasn’t always fend him.</h2></div><span class="css-lsnb14 edye5kn4"></span><button type="button" class="css-w62hzm" aria-haspopup="te" aria-label="Show Aud Transcript"><div class="css-1vd84sn"><svg xmlns=" width="24" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 20" fill="#F8F8F8"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M0 0H24V20H0V0ZM3 7H21V9H3V7ZM21 11H3V13H21V11ZM3 15H21V17H3V15ZM11 3H3V5H11V3Z" fill="#F8F8F8"></path></svg><span class="css-16bt4xd">Transcript</span></div></button></div><div class="css-1g7y0i5 e1drnplw0"><button tabx="100" class="css-1rtlxy" type="button" aria-label="close"><svg width="60" height="60" viewBox="0 0 60 60" fill="none"><circle cx="30" cy="30" r="30" fill="whe" fill-opacy="0.9"></circle><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M38.4844 20.1006L39.8986 21.5148L21.5138 39.8996L20.0996 38.4854L38.4844 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M21.5156 20.1006L20.1014 21.5148L38.4862 39.8996L39.9004 38.4854L21.5156 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path></svg></button><div class="css-rdbib0 e1drnplw1"></div><div class="css-18ow4sz e1drnplw2"><div aria-labelledby="modal-tle" role="regn"><hear class="css-1bzlfz"><div class="css-mln36k" id="modal-tle">transcript</div><button type="button" class="css-1igvuto"><div class="css-f40pzg"></div><span>Back to First Person</span></button><div class="css-f6lhej" data-ttid="transcript-playback-ntrols"><div class="css-1ialerq"><button tabx="99" type="button" class="css-1t9gw" aria-label="play"><svg xmlns=" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M8 13.7683V6L14.5 9.88415L8 13.7683Z" fill="var(--lor-ntent-sendary,#363636)"></path><circle cx="10" cy="10" r="9.25" stroke="var(--lor-stroke-primary,#121212)" stroke-width="1.5"></circle></svg></button><div class="css-1701swk"><svg xmlns=" viewBox="0 0 40 36" id="el_0kpS9qL_S"><tle>bars.