Gay Marriage - DOMA, 14th Amendment & Supreme Court | HISTORY

is gay marriage a civil rights issue

This was the birth of gay activism the U. S. , and occurred the summer of the year 1969. The gay civil rights movement has been particularly fuelled

Contents:

GAY MARRIAGE

The road to full marriage equaly for same-sex upl the Uned Stat was paved wh setbacks and victori. The landmark 2015 Supreme Court se Obergefell v. Hodg ma gay marriage legal throughout the untry. * is gay marriage a civil rights issue *

Early Years: Same-Sex Marriage Bans In 1970, jt one year after the historic Stonewall Rts that galvanized the gay rights movement, law stunt Richard Baker and librarian Jam McConnell applied for a marriage license Gerald Nelson rejected their applitn bee they were a same-sex uple, and a trial urt upheld his cisn. ” This lg effectively blocked feral urts om lg on same-sex marriage for s, leavg the cisn solely the hands of stat, which alt blow after blow to those hopg to see gay marriage beg 1973, for stance, Maryland beme the first state to create a law that explicly f marriage as a unn between a man and woman, a belief held by many nservative relig groups.

In 1989, the San Francis Board of Supervisors passed an ordance that allowed homosexual upl and unmarried heterosexual upl to register for domtic partnerships, which granted hospal visatn rights and other years later, the District of Columbia siarly passed a new law that allowed same-sex upl to register as domtic partners.

SHOULD GAY MARRIAGE BE LEGAL?

Proponents ntend that gay marriage bans are discrimatory and unnstutnal, opponents ague that marriage is primarily for procreatn. * is gay marriage a civil rights issue *

C., 1993, the hight urt Hawaii led that a ban on same-sex marriage may vlate that state nstutn’s Equal Protectn Clse—the first time a state urt has ever ched toward makg gay marriage Hawaii Supreme Court sent the se—brought by a gay male uple and two lbian upl who were nied marriage licens 1990—back for further review to the lower First Circu Court, which 1991 origally dismissed the the state tried to prove that there was “pellg state tert” jtifyg the ban, the se would be tied up ligatn for the next three Defense of Marriage Act Opponents of gay marriage, however, did not s on their hnch. That is, even if a state ma gay marriage legal, same-sex upl still wouldn’t be able to file e tax jotly, sponsor spo for immigratn benefs or receive spoal Social Secury payments, among many other act was a huge setback for the marriage equaly movement, but transient good news arose three months later: Hawaii Judge Kev S.

Phg for Change: Civil Unns The next saw a whirlwd of activy on the gay marriage ont, begng wh the year 2000 when Vermont beme the first state to legalize civil unns, a legal stat that provis most of the state-level benefs of years later, Massachetts beme the first state to legalize gay marriage when the Massachetts Supreme Court led that same-sex upl had the right to marry Goodridge v. For the first time the untry’s history, voters (rather than judg or legislators) Mae, Maryland, and Washgton approved Constutnal amendments permtg same-sex marriage marriage also beme a feral issue 2010, Massachetts, the first state to legalize gay marriage, found Sectn 3 of DOMA—the part of the 1996 law that fed marriage as a unn between one man and one woman—to be unnstutnal.

IS GAY MARRIAGE A MORAL ISSUE OR A CIVIL LIBERTI ISSUE? - PT. 1

Same-sex marriage is a civil rights issue for many gay Amerins, but many Ain Amerins disagree. Rep. Byron Rhg (D-Mass.), a straight, black polician, hop to change that. Thomas Allen Harris explor Rhg's work on behalf of gay marriage a documentary short, Marriage Equaly. * is gay marriage a civil rights issue *

Wdsor, nservative Jtice Anthony Kennedy sid wh Jtic Ruth Bar Gsburg, Stephen Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan favor of same-sex marriage rights, ultimately makg gay marriage legal across the natn June this time, was still outlawed only 13 stat, and more than 20 other untri had already legalized gay marriage, startg wh the Netherlands December 2000.

IS GAY MARRIAGE A CIVIL RIGHT?

The Hoe of Reprentativ on Tuday passed a bill to dify the right to gay marriage the wake of the Supreme Court's reversal of Roe v. Wa * is gay marriage a civil rights issue *

On July 25, 2014 Miami-Da County Circu Court Judge Sarah Zabel led Florida’s gay marriage ban unnstutnal and stated that the ban “serv only to hurt, to discrimate, to prive same-sex upl and their fai of equal digny, to label and treat them as send-class cizens, and to em them unworthy of participatn one of the fundamental stutns of our society.

TEXAS JUDGE WHO DON’T WANT TO PERFORM GAY MARRIAGE CEREMONI HOP WEB SIGNER’S SUPREME COURT SE HELPS HER FIGHT

McLennan County Jtice of the Peace Dianne Hensley filed a lawsu after a state agency warned her about refg to marry gay upl. She hop a recent U.S. Supreme Court se about relig eedom helps her e. * is gay marriage a civil rights issue *

2016 printial ndidate and former Hewlett-Packard CEO Carly Fra stated that civil unns are aquate as an equivalent to marriage: “Benefs are beg btowed to gay upl [ civil unns]… I believe we need to rpect those who believe that the word marriage has a spirual foundatn… Why n’t we rpect and tolerate that while at the same time sayg ernment nnot btow benefs unequally. Court papers filed July 2014 by attorneys fendg Arizona’s gay marriage ban stated that “the State regulat marriage for the primary purpose of channelg potentially procreative sexual relatnships to endurg unns for the sake of jog children to both their mother and their father… Same-sex upl n never provi a child wh both her blogil mother and her blogil father. Queer activist Anrs Zanichkowsky stated June 2013 that the then mpaign for gay marriage “tentnally and malicly eras and exclus so many queer people and cultur, particularly trans and genr non-nformg people, poor queer people, and queer people non-tradnal fai… marriage thks non-married people are viant and not tly servg of civil rights.

And that, you know, and he - bee he saw the nnectn between that and the civil rights movement, and, you know, and when I first met Byron, I had been relatnship for over 12 years wh my partner, and I didn't thk that marriage was an important part or somethg that I should stggle for or advote for, wh regards to where the gays and lbians -where gay and lbian folks should put their energi and efforts. S., many supporters of same sex unns believe that the most accurate way to discs support for same sex unns the Uned Stat is on a state-by-state or regn-to-regn Keller, a natnally regnized pastor New York Cy explaed that "you n believe homosexualy is a s and still believe that same-sex marriage should be legal. We still held our beliefs about what the Bible says about beg gay, but we uld have a healthy discsn about and love them as people ma the image of God servg the ncln of our time the profsor that morated our discsn turned to the gay activists and said, "Gentlemen, I have jt gone through the entire nference and never heard one negative ment about gays.

Scholars and the general public beme creasgly terted the issue durg the late 20th century, a perd when attus toward homosexualy and laws regulatg homosexual behavur were liberalized, particularly wtern Europe and the Uned issue of same-sex marriage equently sparked emotnal and polil clash between supporters and opponents. In other s, the cultural homogeney supported by the domant relign did not rult the applitn of doctre to the civic realm but may nohels have fostered a smoother seri of discsns among the cizenry: Belgium and Spa had legalized same-sex marriage, for stance, spe official opposn om their predomant relig stutn, the Roman Catholic Church.

GAY RIGHTS ARE CIVIL RIGHTS

Refg marriage as a civil right strips of s fg feature as a reproductive unn. This problem is seldom explicly acknowledged. Yet, is exprsed directly the semantics of the gay marriage bate. * is gay marriage a civil rights issue *

Most of the world religns have at some pots their histori opposed same-sex marriage for one or more of the followg stated reasons: homosexual acts vlate natural law or dive tentns and are therefore immoral; passag sacred texts nmn homosexual acts; and relig tradn regniz only the marriage of one man and one woman as valid. ” In short, this particular victory for gay rights was based not on the fundamental equaly or digny of gay and transgenr Amerins, as prev Supreme Court cisns have been; was based on the meang of a sgle opn also hts at a potentially ser obstacle on the horizon: claims by employers that beg prohibed om discrimatg agast gay and transgenr workers vlat their relig nvictns.

GAY MARRIAGE AS A CIVIL RIGHT—ARE WRONGS RIGHTS?

The Supreme Court says you n’t be fired for beg gay or transgenr. * is gay marriage a civil rights issue *

Such claims are likely to fd a sympathetic ear among this Supreme Court’s nservative majory, which has repeatedly voted to protect if not promote relign and relig now, however, Monday’s cisn is a victory to savor, the next major step a le of gay rights cisns stretchg back nearly a quarter century, and until now wrten solely by Jtice Anthony Kennedy. Dozens of other activists received ath threats om an obscure anti-gay group that claimed rponsibily for the killg of Grigoryeva, who was stabbed repeatedly and showed signs of 2017, reports of extrajudicial arrts, torture and killgs of gay men the republic of Chechnya drew ternatnal year, Andrei Vaganov and Yevgeny Yerofeyev, a uple raisg two adopted children, had to flee Rsia after a doctor reported them to police and thori opened a crimal se.

They clud Judh Kasen-Wdsor, widow of gay rights activist Edie Wdsor; Matthew Hayn, -owner of Club Q, the LGBTQ club Colorado Sprgs where a gunman last month killed five people a mass shootg; Club Q shootg survivors Jam Slgh and Michael Anrson; and a number of platiffs om s that culmated the landmark civil rights se Obergefell vs. The wispread misnceptn today of gay people as mostly smug, well-off wh wh fat bank acunts and fortable (and, we’re told, chosen) liftyl, however, do not negate the unniable history of often btal treatment of gays and lbians and their lack of basic human rights the ey of ernment for most of this natn’s history.

And jt yterday, a vio of Alveda Kg, the nservative activist niece of Mart Luther Kg Jr., surfaced of her speakg at the Natnal Organizatn for Marriage rally Atlanta this weekend, which she had not only equated gay marriage to a genoci but also stated that “marriage between one man and one woman remas the guard agast human extctn. And while I am vehemently opposed to the likeng of gay rights to the civil rights movement as I believe there has never been an effort to create a subordate class subject to exploatn based on sexual orientatn, I certaly would not ny any person, regardls of sexual orientatn, the human digny and the right to live as they are.

ARE GAY RIGHTS CIVIL RIGHTS?

The ACLU works to ensure that lbian, gay, bisexual, transgenr and queer people n live openly whout discrimatn and enjoy equal rights, personal tonomy, and eedom of exprsn and associatn. * is gay marriage a civil rights issue *

Durg our nversatn, which has been eded for length and clary, we discsed what ma the stggle for gay marriage distct om other civil-rights movements, how Tmp’s electn shifted the foc of social nservatism away om sexual polics, and what this fight n tell about future civil-rights is the stggle for gay marriage Ameri different om other stggl for civil rights Amerin history? And so the procs of g out, which is the unrlyg social enge of a lot of the opn change that leads to polil and legal victori, is somethg that’s available to members of the gay and lbian muny that is not available to Ain-Amerins or to women, their I still n’t ci whether this is a profound observatn or a banal one, but most gay people are born to straight people—which means that they are, one prum, evenly distributed across the populatn, which is to say that they’re not geographilly ncentrated, that the likelihood of anybody the untry g to know somebody as a neighbor or a fay member or a classmate who’s gay or lbian is probably more or ls equally distributed. So, the mid-neteen-neti, anti-gay activists on the maland who rpond to this urt cisn Hawaii end up unifyg a gay-rights movement that had been unvted marriage as a e and actured iologilly over as a strategic proposn—over the tra-offs, terms of cremental gas that would have to be put asi the qut for marriage rights.

RSIAN NSTUTN CHANGE ENDS HOP FOR GAY MARRIAGE

This is not the untry’s first move limg LGBT rights and fluence. Rsia has never legalized gay marriage and also has a “gay propaganda” law. * is gay marriage a civil rights issue *

"Rabbis belongg to the biggt and most liberal branch of Judaism the Uned Stat have voted to regnise the partnerships of gay and lbian Central Conference of Amerin Rabbis, which is part of the Jewish Reform movement, has agreed to sanctn relig ceremoni for same-sex Print of the Conference, Rabbi Charl Kroloff, said that gay and lbian people served the regnn and rpect due to people created the image of God. Proposn 8 was the most expensive proposn on any ballot the natn this year, wh more than $74 ln spent by both measure's most fervent proponents believed that nothg ls than the future of tradnal fai was at stake, while opponents believed that they were fightg for the fundamental right of gay people to be treated equally unr the years ago, Californians voted 61% to fe marriage as beg only between a man and a California Supreme Court overturned that measure, Proposn 22, s May 15 cisn legalizg same-sex marriage on the grounds that the state Constutn required equal treatment of gay and lbian upl. Cuomo signed the measure after passed a Republin-ntrolled Senate on Friday night [June 24, 2011], raisg qutns as to whether the move reflects new momentum the gay rights said the law will grant same-sex upl equal rights to marry 'as well as hundreds of rights, benefs and protectns that are currently limed to married upl of the oppose sex.

"Voters Mae and Maryland approved same-sex marriage on a day of electn rults that jubilant gay rights advot lled a historic turng pot, the first time that marriage for gay men and lbians has been approved at the ballot Mnota, another first, voters rejected a proposal to amend the State Constutn to fe marriage as between a man and a woman, a measure that has been enshred the nstutns of 30 stat. "The Supreme Court has dismissed an appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictnal grounds, lg Wednday private parti do not have 'standg' to fend California's voter-approved ballot measure barrg gay and lbian upl om state-sanctned lg clears the way for same-sex marriag California to 5-4 cisn avoids, for now, a sweepg ncln on whether same-sex marriage is a nstutnal 'equal protectn' right that would apply to all issue was whether the Constutn's guarantee of equal protectn unr the law prevents stat om fg marriage to exclu same-sex upl, and whether a state n revoke same-sex marriage through referendum, as California did, once already has been a majory of the Supreme Court opted not to le on those issu.

"All legally married same-sex upl will be regnized for feral tax purpos no matter what state they live , the Internal Revenue Service and the Treasury Department announced Thursday a change that will affect numero upl stat that have not permted gay change policy follows the Supreme Court's cisn June overturng a key provisn of the Defense of Marriage Act that barred the feral ernment om regnizg same-sex marriag for purpos such as surance benefs, immigratn and tax new approach 'provis accs to benefs, rponsibili and protectns unr feral tax law that all Amerins serve, ' Treasury Secretary Jab J.

EUROPEAN COURT OF HUMAN RIGHTS L RSIA MUST ALLOW GAY MARRIAGE, AS KREML SAYS MOVE WOULD BE ‘IMPOSSIBLE’ UNR NSTUTN

The fate of a nstutnal same-sex marriage ban uld largely be cid Friday when a Mnota Senate mtee nsirs whether the issue should go on the November ballot. Supporters of the nstutnal ban say they want to ensure that Mnota's Defense of Marriage Act nnot be overturned the urts. But opponents say they want gay upl to have the same civil rights and legal benefs afford to heterosexual upl. The civil rights argument has ed ncern among some Ain Amerin relig lears Mnota, pecially when 's pared to the fight for racial equaly. They argue that the civil rights stggle is pletely different than the gay marriage issue. * is gay marriage a civil rights issue *

"A tough ban on same-sex relatnships that threatens vlators wh 14-year prison terms has been quietly signed to law by the print of Nigeria, Ai’s most populo natn, a step that rights advot have long feared not only as a reprsn aimed at gays but as an afont to basic eedoms of speech and ban, known as the Same Sex Marriage Prohibn Act, was passed by Parliament May but was not signed by the print, Goodluck Jonathan, until Jan. Supreme Court on Monday cled to ci once and for all whether stat n ban gay marriage, a surprise move that will allow gay men and women to marry five stat where same-sex weddgs were prevly rejectg appeals s volvg Virgia, Oklahoma, Utah, Wisns and Indiana, the urt left tact lower-urt lgs that had stck down the bans those stat.

IS GAY RIGHTS A CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE? TWO LAWYERS OM OPPOSE ENDS OF THE IOLOGIL SPECTM SAY, “Y.”

People on both sis -- pro-LGBT and anti-LGBT -- actively avoid equatg gay rights wh civil rights. This avoidance is dishont, sultg, and meang to lbian, gay, bisexual, and transgenr people of all racial, ethnic, and cultural inti. It mt stop immediately. * is gay marriage a civil rights issue *

But the high urt's actn means there will be no imment natnal lg on the issue, wh ligatn stat where gay marriage is still banned likely to stat unr the jurisdictn of appeals urts that have stck down the bans will also be affected by the Supreme Court's cisn, meang the number of stat wh gay marriage is likely to quickly jump om 19 to 30. "A feral appeals urt panel upheld bans on same-sex marriage four stat Thursday, a break wh other feral urts that mak almost certa the Supreme Court mt take up the issue of whether gay upl have a nstutnal right to cisn overturned lower-urt lgs Michigan, Oh, Tennsee and Kentucky and mak the 6th Circu the first appeals urt to uphold state bans sce the Supreme Court stck down part of the feral Defense of Marriage Act 2013. "The EU's [European Unn's] top urt, a landmark lg for gay rights Europe, said on Tuday [June 5, 2018] that Romania mt grant rince to the Amerin hband of a lol man even though Romania do not self perm same-sex a se which has highlighted social differenc between wtern Europe and a more nservative, ex-munist east, the European Court of Jtice (ECJ) led that Romania mt accept the validy of the mens' 2010 Belgian marriage and treat Amerin Clay Haton as Adrian Coman's spoe unr EU law...

ISSUE REPORT: CIVIL UNNS VS. GAY MARRIAGE

* is gay marriage a civil rights issue *

"Five of ne judg Ecuador's top urt on Wednday [June 12, 2019] led favor of two gay upl who sued after their requt to be married was nied by the untry's civil Lat Amerin natn is the 27th untry to allow same-sex marriage wh the move g durg the annual gay Pri month and events to mark the 50th year of the [June 28, 1969] Stonewall rts New York that gave rise to the global movement for LGBT+ rights. The 11th annual Amerin Valu Survey rerd that 70% of Amerins support legal same-sex marriage, pared to 28% who are opposn, a rerd survey also found that 83% of Amerins support "laws that would protect gay, lbian, bisexual, and transgenr people agast discrimatn jobs, public acmodatns, and hog, " pared to 16% who are opposn. This is bee they would nstute a certa imatn or analogue of the nuptial blsg voked on the man and woman uned the sacrament of Matrimony, while fact 'there are absolutely no grounds for nsirg homosexual unns to be any way siar or even remotely analogo to God’s plan for marriage and fay' claratn of the unlawfulns of blsgs of unns between persons of the same sex is not therefore, and is not tend to be, a form of unjt discrimatn, but rather a remr of the tth of the lurgil re and of the very nature of the sacramentals, as the Church unrstands them.

LattSearchSearchLove Letter: Supreme Court Backs Digner Opposed to Same-Sex MarriagePl: a rerd number of transgenr laws, Larry Kramer’s memorial, Vows and Morn ground has shifted on gay marriage for nservative a foc of the natn’s culture wars, the issue has taken a back seat to genr Ruth GrahamSupreme Court Backs Web Digner Opposed to Same-Sex MarriageThe jtic settled a qutn left open 2018: whether bs open to the public and engaged exprsn may refe to serve ctomers based on relig Abbie VanSickle and Adam LiptakIndia’s Top Court Begs Hearg Same-Sex Marriage CaseThe Supreme Court recent years has stck down a ban on nsensual gay sex. In the Uned Stat the first major male anizatn, found 1950–51 by Harry Hay Los Angel, was the Mattache Society (s name reputedly rived om a medieval French society of masked players, the Société Mattache, to reprent the public “maskg” of homosexualy), while the Dghters of Bilis (named after the Sapphic love poems of Pierre Louÿs, Chansons Bilis), found 1955 by Phyllis Lyon and Del Mart San Francis, was a leadg group for women.

GAY MARRIAGE: AMERI'S LAST MAJOR CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT

Joe Bin’s long advocy for gay rights reached a historic moment when the print-elect named former South Bend, Ind., mayor Pete Buttigieg as his transportatn secretary. If nfirmed, Buttigieg will bee the first openly LBGTQ Cabet member. But Bin’s support of the gay muny has at tim ed a stir. At a sensive moment 2012, then-Vice Print Bin advertently prodd his boss, Print Barack Obama, to speed up his public affirmatn of same-sex marriage. * is gay marriage a civil rights issue *

Other issu of primary importance for the gay rights movement sce the 1970s clud batg the HIV/AIDS epimic and promotg disease preventn and fundg for rearch; lobbyg ernment for nondiscrimatory polici employment, hog, and other aspects of civil society; endg the ban on ary service for gay and lbian dividuals; expandg hate crim legislatn to clu protectns for gays, cludg transgenr dividuals; and securg marriage rights for same-sex upl (see same-sex marriage). Back 1989 two young activists phg for the normalizatn of homosexualy thored a book tend to serve as a polil strategy manual and public relatns gui for their “After the Ball: How Ameri Will Conquer s Fear and Hatred of Gays the 90s, ” thors Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen argued that efforts to normalize homosexualy and homosexual relatnships would fail unls their movement shifted s argument to a mand for civil rights, rather than for moral acceptance.

It is not about whether same-sex relatnships n volve the ntent of marriage: few would ny that gays and lbians are pable of iendship, timacy, “meet and happy nversatn, ” and mutual rponsibily, nor that they n have and raise children (whether their own om a prev marriage, children created wh their relatnship by surrogacy or artificial sematn, or adopted children).

IS GAY MARRIAGE A CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE? MART LUTHER KG’S NIECE DON’T THK SO

Gay rights movement, civil rights movement that advot equal rights for LGBTQ persons—that is, for lbians, gays, bisexuals, transgenr persons, and queer persons—and lls for an end to discrimatn agast LGBTQ persons employment, cred, hog, public acmodatns, and other areas of life. * is gay marriage a civil rights issue *

Such visceral prejudice is reflected the large number of hate crim that are perpetrated agast gay persons… irratnal nature of the prejudice directed at gay persons, who ‘‘are ridiculed, ostracized, spised, monized and nmned “merely for beg who they are” …is entirely different kd than the prejudice suffered by other groups that prevly have been nied spect or quasi-spect class stat.

1973 Uniform Parentage Act of 1973 1979 first adoptn by a gay uple the untry (California) 1996 Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) 1997 Hawaii first state to provi a classifitn of Domtic Partnership 2002 Uniform Parentage Act of 2002 2004 Massachetts first state to legalize marriage of same-sex partners 2013 Obergefell v.

GAY MARRIAGE AS A CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE ESSAY

GAY MARRIAGE TIMELE

GAY RIGHTS MOVEMENT

FIRST-PERSON: GAY MARRIAGE, A CIVIL RIGHT?

DIPLOMATIC TENSN REPORTEDLY RISG BETWEEN UNED STAT AND JAMAI OVER GAY AMERIN DIPLOMAT

*BEAR-MAGAZINE.COM* IS GAY MARRIAGE A CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE

bars</tle><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_65hRV2Qwn" class="css-1fxvzwo" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_ILVvi2tqx" class="css-1wnday1" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC"><rect x="34" width="6" height="36" id="el_qw_T_tngXw"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_p_9Pm85Ac" class="css-fwki7z" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_WxG3R40yd" class="css-t3i5e6" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU"><rect x="22.67" width="6" height="36" id="el_lf9GrROk6j"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_kYNRGDfcw" class="css-t9te0w" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_3c3bzSjOJ" class="css-1r5375t" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw"><rect x="11.33" width="6" height="36" id="el_-iueO8klO0"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_y_fKcpSxn" class="css-qknaag" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_R6bNB6_Ys" class="css-1vd04" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC"><rect width="6" height="36" id="el_dS5TKNZZ5w"></rect></g></g></g></svg></div><div><div class="css-1t7yl1y">0:00<!-- -->/<!-- -->28:47</div><div class="css-og85jy">-<!-- -->28:47</div></div></div></div></hear><div class="css-uzyn7p"><div class="css-1vxyw"><p class="css-1nng8z9">transcript</p><h2 class="css-9wqu2x">The Wrers’ Revolt Agast A.I. Compani</h2><h4 class="css-qsd3hm">Tech bs have been g onle wrg to velop their chatbots — whout permissn.</h4><time dateTime="2023-07-18T10:00:12.000Z" class="css-1e605">2023-07-18T06:00:12-04:00</time></div><dl class="css-p98d0w"><dt class="css-xx7kwh"></dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">This transcript was created g speech regnn software. While has been reviewed by human transcribers, may nta errors. Please review the episo d before quotg om this transcript and email wh any qutns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">From “The New York Tim,” I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today, to refe their popular technology, new artificial telligence platforms, like ChatGPT, are gobblg up the work of thors, poets, edians and actors, whout their nsent. As my lleague, Sheera Frenkel, found, a rebelln is brewg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s Tuday, July 18.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sheera, is really nice to have you back. It has been far too long.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I agree. It’s great to be back here.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We are turng to you our ongog and very diligent efforts to unrstand this new era artificial telligence and the bate that is ragg over s like ChatGPT, which have put artificial telligence really at everyone’s fgertips.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And rrect me if I’m wrong, but really feels like this is shapg up as a clash between those who are really exced about the pabili of s like ChatGPT — you know, what n do next? This is so tertg. And this huge group of people who are jt eaked out about , right? And ’s gog too far, ’s too sry. And we’ve done a lot of episos about this. A recent one looked at stunts who love ChatGPT, bee n do their homework for them, and their teachers and profsors who are like, wa a mute, you’re basilly cheatg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And you have been reportg on the latt chapter of this clash between human and mache. So tell about that.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, what I’ve been foced on is really jt all the battl over what go to the AI mach. And what mak them powerful, what mak them able to imate human voice is all of the ntent that we’ve put onle over all the years. It’s the poems, and the blogs, and the photographs, and the illtratns that are then pied, and scraped, and fed to the AI mach. It’s what teach them to imate human behavr.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mm-hmm.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And the past six months, as this software has bee really powerful and very popular, more and more people have started askg qutns about whether they want their ntent fed to AI mach. And if they don’t want there, if there’s really anythg they n do about .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So tell who exactly the people are who are askg the qutns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They kd of fall to two groups. There are the people who are dog so bee ’s their livelihood. They have a pyright on their material, and they have some kd of legal protectn agast their work.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The other group are the hobbyists. They’re the people who are wrg stori for the fun of , that are jt creatg art bee they’re passnate about somethg. And they’re puttg stuff out to the ether of the ter. They love . They want to share wh the world. This is jt a te moment of human creativy.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But, you know, both of the groups are seeg ChatGPT, they’re seeg the AI pani valued at hundreds of lns of dollars, and they’re realizg that their creativy is makg someone else a lot of money. And they’re feelg exploed. They’re feelg like their creativy, their moment of spiratn is beg ed.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So let’s start wh this first group of creativ who sound like they are the big fish bee they have pyright protectn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. The are people like actors, animators, wrers, people who make their livelihood by uploadg what they’re dog to the ter. And so they’ve been really alarmed when a ChatGPT along and n produce art their style or n wre a paragraph their style.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (sarah silverman)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I go — I go to the hotel. Super fancy hotel —</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Take, for stance, Sarah Silverman.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (sarah silverman)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— and I go to check . Oh, and the lady at the ont sk regnized me. And she was like, oh, my god, I love you. You are my top four all time favore edians.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">She is a edian, an actor, a wrer, who has honed an credibly distctive style over s of workg.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (sarah silverman)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I was like, you know that I know that means I’m fourth, right?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Not walkg away om this like, ooh, maybe I’m send, you know? No.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And if you go to ChatGPT and say, “Tell me a joke the style of Sarah Silverman”— which is somethg I tried out — really gets her spot on. And she argu that not only has read her jok and read her other onle edy, but that ’s even read this book that she wrote “Betwetter,” which has been upload onle and exists onle versns.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">She appears pretty nvced that ’s sentially learned who she is and what her edic style is. It n mimic her to the gree that you thk is her wrg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I’m gusg ChatGPT likely did that whout askg her permissn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. There is no permissns beg asked here bee there are sentially — image the giant mach that are crawlg the ter at all tim. And any data they e across, they llect. They scrape . They don’t know what they’re dog. They’re nvertg to numbers. It’s basilly bee math the systems. And so anythg onle is nstantly beg hoovered up by the mach and fed to AI systems.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so for a creative profsnal like Sarah Silverman, that feels credibly threateng terms of their livelihood, their abily to make a livg off of beg an artist wh an pennt voice that’s been honed over s. If a mache n do that, why would you need to pay Sarah Silverman to e and wre your script or pen a edy special?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mm-hmm. But how n you be so sure that ChatGPT is really stealg om you if you’re someone like Sarah Silverman, or if you’re anybody, really, whose work has been upload by ChatGPT? Bee my gus is that this gets a ltle b sticky. How much of is jt guswork and how much of is really beg rived om sentially borrowed or stolen material?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Defely. I mean, well, to beg wh, there are the reposori where you n go and check and see if your work has been scraped. A lot of artists do this. A lot of wrers do . And they’ll see there that your name will appear or your piece of art will appear. And so for someone like Sarah Silverman, she n go and see, OK, right, my book has been scraped.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But more specifilly, ’s really jt playg wh this, and ttg out for yourself and toyg wh . I was cur as I was reportg this story, so I went onle and I typed my name. And I said, “Can you wre a paragraph about the danger of onle extremism the voice of Sheera Frenkel?”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Which is the subject you ver, of urse —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— over and over and over aga for “The Tim.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Y, exactly. And I’ve wrten books. I’ve been wrg about for over a . It’s out there. My material is out there. And when I tell you that even after knowg about AI for a year, even after verg this topic for a year, I was creeped out at how close got my voice. I uld have easily wrten this sentence.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Expla that. I mean, I’m not on ChatGPT right now, so I n’t replite the search. But what happened when you said, you know, “Wre a paragraph about the subject I know bt, Sheera Frenkel,” and sp out the rults. What about felt so distctively Sheera Frenkel-que?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I will read to you. So wr this one openg sentence, which is “Onle platforms once hailed as bastns of ee exprsn have bee breedg grounds for hate, radilizatn, and the propagatn of dangero iologi.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That exprsn, “the bastns of ee exprsn,” I’ve ed that. I googled . I ed that an article ls than a year ago and aga an article three years ago. I didn’t even realize that that was a phrase or a turn of phrase that I often ed until ChatGPT repeated back to me.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. It’s kd of a distctive set of words you’re sayg that you turn to. And jt borrowed om you replitg your work.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, knew my bra better than I did. I didn’t realize that that was phrasg I equently ed.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">[lghs]</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I had to go to “The New York Tim” archiv to figure out, oh, yeah, ’s right, I do e that. And, oh, my god, I probably ed too often bee this mache has learned about me.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. And suffice to say, you were not, like Sarah Silverman, nsulted about your work beg scraped by ChatGPT.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Nope. We were never nsulted. And no one at “The New York Tim” was nsulted.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Got . So Sarah Silverman did not like that experience. You scribed as a ltle b eerie. I’m wonrg if ’s a touch flatterg to have ChatGPT borrow your stuff?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Or if you worry about the long-term enomic nsequenc of all, which is to say that someday ChatGPT might be able to replite your journalism so brilliantly, that maybe “The Tim” don’t need you on the beat anymore.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, you know, I’ve actually spent so much time thkg about this. And there’s a part of me that was thkg, oh, god, kd of would be nice when I was done wh reportg to plug my not to a mache and have — there are days where would be nice to have a mache wre my article for me.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But no, no, I thought about more, and then I was like, yeah, n imate what I’ve already done. But the whole pot of news is that what we’re brgg you is h and based on new reportg. So the nclns we’re drawg for rears are nstantly changg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And AI n’t do that. It n only repeat and regurgate what’s already been given to , what’s already the system. And so whatever answer giv you might be what Sheera Frenkel thought about somethg two years ago or five years ago. But won’t be what the newt ia is or the ht reportg has brought rears.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. It might jt keep tellg the world that you thk somethg’s a bastn of ee exprsn when you thk ’s a bastn of not ee exprsn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">[lghs]</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">If ’s bee a bastn of hate speech and extremism.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK, so what n creativ do about, sentially, this theft, right? What n the Sheera Frenkels and the Sarah Silvermans of the world do, and what are they dog about this problem?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So the creativ wh the pyright, the creativ wh the legal protectn of a pyright n file lawsus. And that’s exactly what we’re seeg happen. There’s been nearly a dozen lawsus that have been filed agast AI pani by everybody om book publishers to dividuals who have pyright protectns.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And one of them was Sarah Silverman, who got together wh another two thors to sue several AI pani, cludg Meta, which is the parent pany of Facebook, and OpenAI, which is the parent pany of ChatGPT, to say that their work was illegally scraped, and download, and upload to the AI systems.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And Sheera, what do legal experts thk are the chanc that this kd of a lawsu om a Sarah Silverman will prevail agast a pany like ChatGPT?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, you know, this is all brand new. It’s brand new se law. But they know they have to tablish some kd of law or precent gog forward bee this is material wh a pyright. For a lot of artists, books they wrote 10 years ago or 15 years ago, that’s gog to ntue to make them money throughout their liv.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And y, they’re evolvg nstantly as artists. They want to thk about their material gog forward. They don’t want ChatGPT to wre their jok for them gog forward. But they also want to be paid for the books that have already been published and are already out there.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so is the feelg that old school pyright law will provi someone like Sarah Silverman wh the legal protectns that she’s seekg?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, the legal experts seem credibly hopeful that there is some kd of pyright protectn here, and that, sentially, some kd of fancial damag will be award, and that some kd of moary value will be placed on the very strong pyright protectns that creative profsnals get.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The problem is that even if they get that money, even if Meta or OpenAI are forced to pay some kd of damag to Sarah Silverman, the ntent, the data, n never be retrieved. It’s out there. It’s bee numbers and on and zeros fed to a mache. There’s no way to go to , to that mache, and get that data back out. Once ’s , ’s forever.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so ultimately, even if they do get that fancial reward through the urt system, and they get the pyright protectn to their material affirmed by the urts, their data is gone. Their data is there forever.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">In other words, the horse is out of the stable. I assume that’s te, Sheera, for , for “The Tim,” for the work of people like you. We n’t retrieve your journalism back om a ChatGPT. So is “The Tim,” like Sarah Silverman, thkg of sug the AI pani?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So “The New York Tim,” to the bt of our knowledge, is not lookg at a lawsu. What we’ve seen “The New York Tim” and other news publishers do is start to thk about how to start chargg for this data gog forward. I mean, “The New York Tim” is creatg tons of ntent every sgle day that the mach want to stay up to date.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so they’re really tryg to figure out if there’s some kd of fancial arrangement that n be put to place where the AI pani pay . And ’s not jt news publishers. Webs, like Redd, they’re lookg at licensg their data as well. They’re sayg, this data is herently valuable and we want you to pay for .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But look, that’s gog to take a long time for them to e to an agreement. This is a brand new mol. This is a brand new technology. And the meantime, the data is still beg scraped. In the meantime, the systems have all the articl that have already been published. They probably are beg updated on new articl as they e out. And so all this material is still beg fed to the mach as the talks are ongog.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. And will be for some time. So you’re sayg the pyright protected creators, who would seem to have the strongt posn this equatn, are not really mountg that forceful a phback spe the anger that you’re scribg here.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. I mean, they are g the urts. They are g the legal system. But as we know, that’s slow. Wag for the urts to take actn, wag for lawyers to hammer out a fancial agreement between a massive news anizatn and an AI pany is a slow procs.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And what’s tertg for me is that this other group of people that I mentned, those that don’t have a pyright protectn, the hobbyists, the enthiasts, the people that are postg to the ter for the fun of , they’re the on that are leadg the most creative rebelln or revolt agast AI.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be right back.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Sheera, tell more about this send group of creators who are fightg back agast AI platforms — the hobbyists and amatrs, as you’ve scribed them, who lack the legal pyright protectns of people like you and Sarah Silverman.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So actually a group I spent a lot of time terviewg and thkg about was fan fictn wrers. And for anyone who’s not faiar — bee before I reported this story, I’d never actually read any fanfic, there are —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Fanfic? Now you’re an thory.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m now ep the fandoms. The are people who watch a movie like “Star Wars” and love , but walk away om thkg, what would happen if the ma characters at the end, Kylo Ren and Rey didn’t die? What if they fell love and got married? And I’m really sorry if I’m havg movie spoilers my answers here.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">What would happen if “Buffy the Vampire Slayer,” two of the vampir met high school and had a gay romance? I mean, they take the popular movi and TV shows, and they let their imagatns roam. And they publish the credible — I mean, book-length piec of ntent — about their favore movi and TV shows.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And, you know, this is not stuff they have any kd of pyright to. If anythg, they’re borrowg om ias and characters that are already out there. But they’re dog for the love of those characters and the storyl that they want to explore their own wrg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And how did wrers of fanfictn disver that their work was beg sucked up by platforms like ChatGPT?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So they actually disvered this a really, really funny way, which is that fan fictn, you create your own characters. And some of them have nam like Bucky, which is a batn of several characters om “Buffy the Vampire Slayer.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. [LAUGHS]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so they go to ChatGPT and they type , “Wre me a story about Bucky fallg love wh a vampire. Wre me a story about Bucky on a summer day eatg a popsicle.” And ChatGPT knew who that character was wh great specificy.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Another example that was actually given to me — and this was the most outrageo example as far as the fanfictn wrers were ncerned — is that there’s this sexual trope, lled the omegaverse, which fan fictn wrers really like to explore. And ’s very, very specific to fanfictn. And ChatGPT knew all about .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You’re not gog to tell any more about ?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m very nfed about myself.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">[lghs]</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I’m pretty new to fanfictn. From what I’ve read, there’s like tentacl volved. And ’s —</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">— I don’t thk ’s appropriate for the podst.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sure, sure, sure, sure.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But the pot is there’s no reason an AI mache would know about unls had read and gted their fanfictn wrg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Why would ChatGPT know anythg about this unls was scrapg fanfictn? But Sheera, aren’t the fanfictn wrers postg stuff that’s fair game, right? They don’t have pyright.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, they know they don’t have pyright protectns. But they still feel really, you know, wound. They’re afonted at the ia that the mach have scraped what is, for them, very much a labor of love.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Some of the fan fictn wrers I spoke to had spent s dog this. They had done as a form of therapy. They had done as an act of love towards the movi and televisn shows that they felt creatively spired by. And they felt like the mach are sentially attackg the very spir of human creativy that they had been prolific about onle.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hmm. Right. This is not necsarily their full time job. This is not how they make money. But you’re sayg taps to, some ways, who they are. It’s part of their inty. And so, on a moral level, they n’t tolerate ChatGPT jt stealg .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Many of them have day jobs where they make money. But their love, their passn is gog to this fan fictn. And they’ve tablished the really tertg ternal l on the foms where they post, where if one person imat another or borrows om another whout attributn, ’s nsired outrageo. They are booted om the muny. They are exmunited.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">They really have a lot of honor how they operate onle. And they want that to be rpected by the mach. And so li of that, they’ve had to get really, really creative about how they rebel or how they revolt agast the AI systems.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And how creative have they gotten? What are they dog?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. So I mean, for stance, one of the first protts they lnched is they got together and started feedg jt absolute nonsense to ChatGPT. They figured if you’re gog to scrape our material, we’re gog to give you total irreverent nonsense to nfe you so you don’t unrstand our characters, you don’t unrstand our storyle, and you nnot mimic what we do.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So they n’t sue, but they n gum up the works. They n basilly jt shove sticks and ston to this mache and try to grd out the gears.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly. I mean, they had to thk creatively. And so they thought, if you want our material, here’s our material. We’re gog to give you nonsense.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And do that tactic work?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, n if they do enough of . And they seem pretty mted and passnate about dog this. But they haven’t stopped there. A lot of them have also started makg their ntent private or removg om the web entirely. And so their thkg is, you know, until now they’ve shared all this eely, but if the mach are gog to e and scrape what they do, they’re gog to start lockg down.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK. Both of the techniqu, though, would seem to be pretty unterproductive if you’re the bs of creatg fan fictn. The first one jt creat a bunch of gibberish, which no one wants to read if you like fan fictn. The send one would lim who n view the fan fictn you wre. So aren’t the rebellns agast plac like ChatGPT jt hurtg the fan fictn muny? Aren’t they jt shootg themselv the foot?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, to a certa gree. And a lot of them say they kd of feel like they are, the short-term, dog somethg that go agast the entire spir of fan fictn. But they feel helpls. And so I thk, at this pot, they’re jt throwg darts at the wall to see what sticks and what works.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">A lot of them have been the muni for a long time, and so their thkg is, well, I might only get to share my wrg wh a uple dozen people, stead of a uple thoand, but at least the mach won’t get me.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So don’t really feel like eher of the two groups, Sheera, that we’ve been talkg about here — the group wh pyright protectns and the amatrs who don’t have pyright protectns — neher of them seem to be much of a match for the AI platforms and stoppg them om scrapg their work.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So that mak me thk that if you’re one of the wrers, the better solutn would be for the US ernment to step wh some simple regulatn that says, ChatGPT, for example, you n’t upload this work unls you pay for . And I know the ernment is havg the nversatns. There have been lots of ngrsnal heargs. So is that a possibily? The ernment says, no uploadg unls you pay the wrers and the creators.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, ’s te that the US ernment is havg talks wh all of the AI pani. But we have to remember that we’re still wag for the US ernment to take actn and e up wh some kd of regulatn about social media that’s been around for over a .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mhm.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The US ernment is very, very slow-actg. And the vast majory of members of Congrs are still wrappg their head around how this technology even works. And so whatever they do is years ahead. And ’s gog to be tempered by the fact that they don’t want to hold back the pani too much.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mhm. Expla that.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The US ernment se self an arms race, at the moment, agast Cha when to AI. Both Cha and the Uned Stat have a lot of scientists that are vted this. They have a lot of tert beg the world lears artificial telligence.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so they know that every b of regulatn they put place potentially holds back those US pani, as opposed to Cha, where there’s very ltle regulatn on data and where there’s a ton of data onle that the Che ernment n easily accs and even give to Che AI pani if they want to speed ahead what’s nsired the AI arms race between the US and Cha.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So the US ernment might have an tert actually sidg wh the AI platforms over the creators bee mak more petive agast our rivals.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. I mean, they don’t want to hamper US AI pani to the pot where they fall behd Cha.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hmm. In which se, feels like the only way for creative typ and for publishg platforms, like “The Tim,” to fight back is to fight back really on their own, for the next however many years. And I’m cur, Sheera, if, your reportg, you thk the plats of the Sarah Silvermans and the publishg platforms is actually gog to make the general public sympathetic and lead to a larger sle phback agast the ChatGPT-like platforms, or if the realy is jt that people like the thgs, they’re exced about them, and that’s gog to overri any of the worri that we’re talkg about.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, look, right now the people that are angry are the people that n see that their work has been pied or scraped and regurgated. It’s people who are already seeg that the mach have gted their work and n py their voic a really realistic way. And we don’t know what’s gog to happen gog forward.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, pani like Google and Facebook are still cidg on how they’re gog to tra their AI. And what happens if Facebook’s AI cis to tra on your data, and n fd posts that you wrote 10 years ago when you were llege and sound jt like you, or if Google cis to read your email and your Google docs, and n say, hey, this is what Michael sounds like when he’s planng a vatn wh his fay? Is the creeps factor then that much more that all of feel like our souls are beg replited by mach?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. And do that mean that sudnly we are all the fan fictn wrer? We are all Sarah Silverman. We are all sudnly seeg the platforms slowly suckg a versn of out and and givg to the world a way that is very weird.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Do bee a “Black Mirror” episo? It’s unclear. But uld be that the AI systems are so extremely eful and beneficial for our liv that none of re. Bee at one pot, people were really mad about Facebook suckg up their data and servg them ads and Google dog the same. And then we ultimately cid that they provid such a eful service that was OK wh that they sucked up our data. And we’re really jt the begng of this technology. And so we don’t know yet.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">You know, one of the fanfic wrers I spoke to actually put a really lovely way that — she was the middle of wrg this new piece of fictn, and happened to be about AI robots vers humans. And she stopped midway through wrg bee she didn’t want to post onle and feed more to the mache.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But she said that where she’s stuck and the thought she’s really stuck on is that this piece of fictn she was wrg, not every AI robot was bad. Some of them were helpful. Some of them were nice. Some of them were good. And some of them were evil. And was really about how the rporatns behd those robots e them that cid whether they were good or evil.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so she felt like she jt had so many qutns about the pani nng the AI, and how they’re g the data, and how they’re gog to license , and what value is gog to be — all the qutns are swirlg around her head. And ’s like, are the robots good or bad? We don’t know yet, and so we don’t feel fortable wh them.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so did she end up postg any of the story onle?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, she has not posted yet. I thk she still has too many qutns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, Sheera, thank you very much. We appreciate .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thank you for havg me. [MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be right back.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Here’s what else you need to know today — on Monday, Rsia said would end an agreement that had allowed Ukrae to export lns of tons of gra to the rt of the world, threateng global food pric and the food supply dozens of untri that rely on the gra.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The year-old agreement, known as the “Black Sea Gra Iniative,” was a succsful attempt to lim the global repercsns of Rsia’s war on Ukrae. But Rsia has repeatedly plaed that the agreement favored Ukrae over s own people.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg 1</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I eply regret the cisn by the Rsian Feratn to termate the implementatn of the “Black Sea Iniative.”</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Durg a news nference, the head of the Uned Natns said that Rsia’s cisn would e unnecsary sufferg across the world.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg 1</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today’s cisn by the Rsian Feratn will strike a blow to people need everywhere.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And smoke om wildfir Canada is returng to the US this week. By Monday afternoon, was affectg about 72 ln Amerins across 29 stat, om the Dakotas to New York. Nearly 900 wildfir are burng across Canada. Of those, the Canadian ernment says that more than 500 of them are burng out of s ntrol.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today’s episo was produced by Clare Toeniskoetter, Rob Szypko and Mooj Zadie. It was eded by Devon Taylor wh help om Lisa Chow, ntas origal mic by Elisheba Ittoop, and was engeered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme mic is by Jim Bnberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonrly.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s for “The Daily.” I’m Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd></dl></div></div></div></div><div style="posn:absolute;width:0;height:0;visibily:hidn;display:none"></div><hear class="css-1vwfk9f" data-breakpot=""><div style="width:100%" data-ttid="flt-layout"><div style="background-image:url()" class="css-18qqsen e1llfg0"><div class="css-1hmsypo e1llfg2"><div class="css-131hid3 e1llfg3"><div class="css-1uhi299 e1llfg1"></div><div class="css-1tloyb6"><div class="css-1kltdsh ehra6vc0"><a href=" class="css-2ne0py"><span class="css-1f76qa2"><img alt="The Daily logo" src="><span>The Daily</span></span></a><span class="css-1lhttlg ehra6vc1"><span class="css-sj5ozi ehra6vc2">Subscribe:</span><ul class="css-hx5n"><li><a href=" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Apple Podsts</a></li><li><a href=" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Google Podsts</a></li></ul></span></div></div><div class="css-1r0dpua e1llfg4"><div class="css-1gu519p edye5kn0"><div><h1 class="css-1xbyom1 edye5kn2">The Wrers’ Revolt Agast A.I. Compani</h1><h2 class="css-rlih edye5kn3">Tech bs have been g onle wrg to velop their chatbots — whout permissn.</h2></div><span class="css-lsnb14 edye5kn4"></span><button type="button" class="css-w62hzm" aria-haspopup="te" aria-label="Show Aud Transcript"><div class="css-1vd84sn"><svg xmlns=" width="24" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 20" fill="#F8F8F8"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M0 0H24V20H0V0ZM3 7H21V9H3V7ZM21 11H3V13H21V11ZM3 15H21V17H3V15ZM11 3H3V5H11V3Z" fill="#F8F8F8"></path></svg><span class="css-16bt4xd">Transcript</span></div></button></div><div class="css-1g7y0i5 e1drnplw0"><button tabx="100" class="css-1rtlxy" type="button" aria-label="close"><svg width="60" height="60" viewBox="0 0 60 60" fill="none"><circle cx="30" cy="30" r="30" fill="whe" fill-opacy="0.9"></circle><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M38.4844 20.1006L39.8986 21.5148L21.5138 39.8996L20.0996 38.4854L38.4844 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M21.5156 20.1006L20.1014 21.5148L38.4862 39.8996L39.9004 38.4854L21.5156 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path></svg></button><div class="css-rdbib0 e1drnplw1"></div><div class="css-18ow4sz e1drnplw2"><div aria-labelledby="modal-tle" role="regn"><hear class="css-1bzlfz"><div class="css-mln36k" id="modal-tle">transcript</div><button type="button" class="css-1igvuto"><div class="css-f40pzg"></div><span>Back to The Daily</span></button><div class="css-f6lhej" data-ttid="transcript-playback-ntrols"><div class="css-1ialerq"><button tabx="99" type="button" class="css-1t9gw" aria-label="play"><svg xmlns=" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M8 13.7683V6L14.5 9.88415L8 13.7683Z" fill="var(--lor-ntent-sendary,#363636)"></path><circle cx="10" cy="10" r="9.25" stroke="var(--lor-stroke-primary,#121212)" stroke-width="1.5"></circle></svg></button><div class="css-1701swk"><svg xmlns=" viewBox="0 0 40 36" id="el_0kpS9qL_S"><tle>bars.

TOP