By SK Guillory Mic Journalist Troy Sivan’s and Jónsi's song “Revelatn” was wrten for the bgraphil drama film “Boy Erased.” Gerard Conoley’s memoir turned movie chronicl his experience of beg a pastor's son, g out as gay and havg to endure the atroci of nversn therapy. If you’ve ever vised a church worship service, you…
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While has been reviewed by human transcribers, may nta errors. Please review the episo d before quotg om this transcript and email wh any qutns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">From “The New York Tim,” I’m Mata Stevis-Gridneff. This is “The Daily.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg 1</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Italy about to see the untry’s most right-wg ernment sce World War II — Grgia Meloni.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg 2</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Her party, Brothers of Italy, draws s roots om Italy’s fascist history.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">A year ago, Italian far-right polician, Grgia Meloni, beme prime mister on an agenda that many feared would mark a radil turn for Italy.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (grgia meloni)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thank you. I’m very pleased to be here today to ttify the ep iendship that bonds the Uned Stat and Italy. I want to thank Print Bin for his hospaly.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Last week, she vised the Whe Hoe for the first time.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (grgia meloni)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And this closens is based on mon valu and cultural roots.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">A move that bolsters her crentials on the ternatnal stage. Today, my lleague, Rome Bure Chief Jason Horowz, on Grgia Meloni’s rise and the path she has rved out for Europe’s far-right parti.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s Monday, July 31.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Jason, “The Daily” team tells me that the show don’t normally ver viss om foreign heads of state to the Whe Hoe. But there was a state vis last week that surprised me. And you vered . Tell me about .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. So last week, Print Bin weled Prime Mister Grgia Meloni of Italy to the Whe Hoe. And at first look, this seemed like a regular vis om a foreign head of state. They seem sync on several thgs. Grgia Meloni has been a rock rib supporter of Ukrae the war. And the Uned Stat appreciat that. She is nsirg pullg out of a astcture al wh Cha, which the Uned Stat has never liked. And so the Uned Stat appreciat that, too.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And at first glance aga, jt seemed like your regular meetg between alli. But if you take a step back and you look at what symbolilly Meloni reprents, was much more tertg, bee Ms. Meloni is not jt any prime mister, she is arguably the lear of the far right wh Europe. And Italy has been the hotbed of populism wh Europe for years now. And for many, she reprents the culmatn of that movement.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And even Print Bin, when she was first elected last year, he was very wary of her electn. And the days after her victory, he publicly said that Meloni was a warng sign for the progrs of the far right around the world. And so I thk how she got to where she started om, as that very hard-right sort of symbol to where she is now, meetg wh Print Bin, that’s an tertg story. Tell</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Me that story. How did Meloni go om someone the Whe Hoe was clearly ncerned about to someone they’re rollg out the red rpet for.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, to unrstand Grgia Meloni, you really have to unrstand the far right Italy. And that starts wh Beno Msoli. He was the Italian dictator who got Italy to World War II. And he brought fascism not only to Italy but to all of Europe. So after the war, fascism is feated, Msoli is ad. But unlike Germany, where the Nazis were held acuntable for their actns, Italy tak a different path and has a different story.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Italy bans the support of fascism. But the people who were the fascists, they’re allowed to stick around. They don’t disappear. And they’re allowed to form parti. So, y, those parti are margalized, but they bee entrenched Italian society. And that go on for s until the early 1990s when a very young Grgia Meloni — she’s only a teenager at that pot — cis she wants to bee a youth activist for this post-fascist far-right polil party.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. So this is clearly not a very sanized or popular part of the polil spectm or Italian society. So how do Meloni get there?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Grgia Meloni has a very tertg personal life story. And she shared wh me an terview at a hotel rtrant Sardia last year.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Anyway, well, thank you for takg the time. I appreciate .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">grgia meloni</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And you’re wele.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">She’s om a workg class neighborhood. And she’s raised by a sgle mother.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I read that your mom was a wrer, right?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">grgia meloni</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. My mother has a very particular story. She wasn’t so lucky her life. So she did lots of jobs. And as we know, we didn’t have a father. My father left .</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Her father and her mother spl. Her father took off to the Canary Islands.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">grgia meloni</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So at the end, she was directg a shop. And failed. So she was whout nothg. And I don’t know how, she began to wre the night a love story.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Her mother, to make ends meet, took up wrg romance novels.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">grgia meloni</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And at the end, she wrote 144 of the small books like “Harmony.”</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And wrote a lot of them but even still —</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">grgia meloni</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And they failed, too. Me, I joke wh my mother about that.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It was not a very lucrative venture. She was not succsful at the time. So Meloni om a very different pot of view than many the Italian polil spectm e om. She felt that maybe she didn’t f . But she found a home wh the far-right post-fascist party, which was sort of born om the ash of fascism.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So let me jt pse there. Can you expla what you mean when you say post-fascist? What is post-fascism?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Y. It’s actually a tricky qutn. So post-fascism refers to far-right polil parti and movements that n clearly trace their roots back to fascism and Msoli. So when the first post-fascist party forms right after World War II, there’s still wh a strong stra that had a skepticism of mocracy. There were still people who believed polics through vlence. There’s a natnalism, a very strong feelg that Italy should be first, a hatred of munism. There’s an embrace of the tradnal fay and of the church.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But the qutn has long been, how much parts of fascism lgered? And how much Meloni is tged by them? And how much she ever embraced them? What is clear is that the young people drawn to this world, their polil anctors, the people they uld draw a direct le to, those were people who had been disgraced, who were taboo, who had brought Italy to World War II and vastated the untry. They were people mted atroci and passed racial laws.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So the young people who all of a sudn found themselv drawn to this party, they say, not for those terrible thgs but for other reasons, for the tradnal fay, for the belief that Italy should be patrtic. They need to tablish new hero. They need to create new orig stori for themselv. And so strangely enough, “The Lord of the Rgs” ends up beg an extremely powerful document or ttament or bible for that world.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Wa. “Lord of the Rgs” as the JRR Tolkien epics wh the hobbs and the elv, that stuff?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Jason, is a long time sce I last read “Lord of the Rgs,” but ’s not exactly obv to me how relat or how ’s appealg to the far right.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, there’s a lot of woods and mysticism and epic battl. But I thk what matters to the far-right youth at the time is that gave them clear archetyp, warrrs and regular folks, the se of the books, Hobbs, who were fendg dividual cultur.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">In the book, we’re talkg about elf culture or dwarf culture. But their md, they’re talkg about Italy. They’re talkg about Christian culture. They’re thkg of all the people who have an tert ncelg out what they view to be historic Italian valu.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So you’re a huge “Lord of the Rgs” fan, I found out.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">grgia meloni</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, yeah. I n tell you whatever you want. Me, I read the book when I was 11 years old.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And Meloni, beg a hard-right youth, looks to “Lord of the Rgs,” and she still quot to this very day, as sort of a very clear way to see good and evil.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So “The Lord of the Rgs” sort of right-wg Italian polics means somethg. Is that right? What is ?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">grgia meloni</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk that Tolkien would say better than that than for a nservative believ . you fd everythg that. And [SPEAKING ITALIAN]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">There’s lots of archetyp . And aga, those archetyp realy were no longer available to her and to the others the youth groups of the post-fascist parti.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">grgia meloni</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[SPEAKING ITALIAN]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So that’s how “The Lord of the Rgs” be so fluential to them. And they actually drs up as hobbs at certa pots when they go to school. They would have nam for each other, bee was a world where they felt nstantly battle wh the munists the other part of town. So there was a warlike mentaly, so they had nam. And the nam were often characters om “Lord of the Rgs.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Wow. So, OK. So how do she go om splay to profsnal polics?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So right off the bat, she fds herself at home this group of like-md young people and activists. They’re htg the streets. They’re monstratg. They’re givg speech. They’re puttg up posters. They’re rippg down the leftist posters. They’re out there every week and every day.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg 3</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[SPEAKING ITALIAN]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And she’s gettg noticed. I mean, when a French TV crew to Rome —</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg 4</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[SPEAKING FRENCH]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— they terview her. And one of the thgs that she says, which back to hnt her s later —</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (grgia meloni)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[SPEAKING FRENCH]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— is that she scrib Msoli as a good polician and says —</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (grgia meloni)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[SPEAKING FRENCH]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Everythg he did he did for Italy.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Wow.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But regardls of whatever admiratn Meloni may or may not have harbored for Msoli her youth, her party at the time was gog through a major upheaval. It was tryg to jo a new aln led by Silv Berlni, the nservative mogul, who was reanizg Italian polics. He had jt bee prime mister. And he need aln partners. So eher as an effort to rebrand or as a sign of scere nversn, the party mak a real effort to distance themselv om fascism and Msoli.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So she sounds like she’s a risg star the youth movement om the street up. But where do she go once she has tablished herself as an amb upwardly movg young activist?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So she tch the eye of the party lear who regniz a talent her. And he grooms her. And then she ws a small seat Rome ernment 1998. But really, she remas a highly lol and eply unknown figure to the polil tablishment.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And when do she get her big break?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So her big break 2008. And that’s when another Berlni ernment is charge Italy. And Meloni is brought as the youngt mister at that time the history of Italy. She’s then 31 years old. And she be the Mister for Youth Affairs for all of Italy. And she be sort of a fixture of Italian polics.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But by 2012, she’s ready to strikeout on her own. She cis wh a few others to leave Berlni’s big tent to form her own polil party. And they ll the Brothers of Italy.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What are some of the thgs that she’s llg for her new party?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So when the populists are really ascendg, everyone’s sort of tryg to outdo one another and be more extreme than the other. And Meloni is very much part of this.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (grgia meloni)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[SPEAKING ITALIAN]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">When to migratn, she’s sayg that migrant ships should be sunk, though she’s very clear always that the migrants should be off the ships when time to sk them.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg 5</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[SPEAKING ITALIAN]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">She memorat the 100th anniversary of World War I by nng a vio which there are an empire of vars g to Italy.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg 6</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[SPEAKING ITALIAN]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And the vars are Wall Street, and they’re Soros, and they’re Macron, and they’re Merkel. So ’s the European Unn and ’s the bankg terts who are the vars who are tryg to Italy.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (grgia meloni)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[SPEAKING ITALIAN]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And this wilrns perd ntu for Meloni. And she keeps tryg to look for an issue to ga populary on.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And how do go? How is her party received Italian polics and society at the time? Is she succeedg?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Don’t go terrific. The party is sort of relegated to the margs. Pole society se them as unacceptable. Even though she is clearly, as I said, not alone this space, she’s jt not wng . She’s stuck the low sgle digs. And she’s not dog very well.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So she’s really jt lookg for any issue that she n to ga some polil tractn. And she keeps givg speech. In the speech, she has a very particular speakg style. I thk the saft way to scribe is full of energy. So one of the speech that she giv Rome really hs a nerve.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (grgia meloni)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[SPEAKING ITALIAN]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And is opposn to inty polics. So she giv this speech which she bellows —</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (grgia meloni)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[SPEAKING ITALIAN]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— I am Grgia.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (grgia meloni)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[SPEAKING ITALIAN]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I am a woman.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (grgia meloni)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[SPEAKING ITALIAN]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I am a mother.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (grgia meloni)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[SPEAKING ITALIAN]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I am Italian. I am Christian.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (grgia meloni)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[SPEAKING ITALIAN]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And one of the ma parts of the speech is she rails agast this ia that gay upl n adopt children or have children through surrogacy. And that on the birth certifit, stead of mother and father, says —</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (grgia meloni)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[SPEAKING ITALIAN]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— parent one parent two.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (grgia meloni)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[SPEAKING ITALIAN]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So this speech did not go unnoticed. It was seen as hyperbolic. A lot of people on the left and even the center and even some of her alli on the right sort of teased her about . And was nsired so much of almost a joke.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That some hoe DJs cid to put on a dance track. And the chos of the song is Grgia Meloni sayg —</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">— parent one, parent two, parent one, parent two Italian. And that song was everywhere.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">In fact, she says her book, she said that the DJs ma a mistake is that they ma the song too good and too danceable. And went everywhere. And her msage went everywhere. And her populary went up. Now, I don’t thk that this song on the rad is what ed Grgia Meloni to tapult to power. But I also don’t thk that ’s pletely irrelevant. I thk that was Grgia Meloni beg everywhere. And was Grgia Meloni not beg dangero.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So she has this advertent h. Where do she go om there?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The key thg that happens for Grgia Meloni is that durg the bleak years of COVID, Italy formed what is lled a Natnal Uny Government, which is basilly everyone got the ernment, bee was such a major challenge to the untry that everyone need to be a part of . And so her petn the populist space enters this ernment.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Grgia Meloni stays out of this ernment. And so when that ernment ultimately, as ernments Italy often do, llapsed, all of a sudn, she is left alone. And her former petors are now tged wh this adly tablishmentism, right? They are seen as operatg wh all the people that they have sworn that they would fight. And their support plung. And her support tak off.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And didn’t hurt her that the Italian left tried to ame her as a fascist. Italian voters didn’t believe that. They knew Grgia Meloni. She was a known quanty on the stage. And so to all of a sudn say, oh, you n’t elect her, she’s a fascist, when she had been workg wh some of the people who were llg her a fascist for years, seemed disgenuo and helped her, too.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And all of a sudn, Grgia Meloni, who was for years stuck the sgle digs, was by far the most popular polician the untry. And there was an electn for the first time five years on the immediate horizon. She ws the electns. And she be the first woman to be the prime mister of Italy. And all of a sudn, all of Europe is lookg at Grgia Meloni. And they have a big qutn. What is Grgia Meloni actually gog to do as prime mister after years of sayg all the thgs that she has been sayg?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be right back.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Jason, for the first time sce Msoli, there is a far-right polician leadg Italy. How do Meloni ern when she gets to power? Do she stay te to her more extreme ias?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So when Meloni tak office, there was apprehensn all across Europe of what she would be like. And so when she go to the sort of halls of Bssels and meets wh the other lears, people around the ntent were surprised that Grgia Meloni didn’t prent as a fire-breathg dragon, the one that they had read about. And on the major issu, she was playg wh their l, on enomic issu.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And most importantly, on Ukrae, she is not waverg. She is an absolute supporter of Ukrae agast Rsian aggrsn. This is somethg that a lot of people were worried about. They were qutng whether she was jt sayg this the mpaign to seem more acceptable. And right away, she ma absolutely clear she was not gog to change. And so this immediately put people at ease Europe. It pecially put people at ease the Whe Hoe. So that’s sort of the most important sign that, oh, wa, I thk this might be OK.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And on the issue of migratn, she’s arguably bee a lear Europe on the issue. She’s holdg nferenc wh lots of natns, not jt Europe, but Ai, the Middle East, raisg money to aid velopment the untri that are the source of migratn. She is strikg als wh lears North Ai to keep migrants om g to Europe. And she says she’s dog this bee she’s tryg to save the migrants at sea.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Crics say that she really jt wants the migrants out of Italy. And that she’s phg for a harsh policy to crack down even more on asylum seekers rights. But what’s clear is that Meloni, who was a bomb thrower om the margs, is now playg a central role Europe’s migratn policy.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. So as prime mister, she’s basilly erng and speakg like a n-of-the-l nservative and, I gus, granted the EU nservative movement has also lurched to the right, too. But I’m gusg that her base is still part far right. How do she keep her re voters happy? How do she ensure that they don’t feel abandoned?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, I thk this go back to Meloni’s credibily. She spent her time g up the ranks. She was actually out on the streets, livg , breathg . So I don’t thk her hard right base has any qutns about her. But she’s also been reful to dole out some red meat to keep them satisfied.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">After a urt lg, her ernment has cracked down on same-sex upl that have tried to have children through surrogacy. And her ernment is actually erasg the nam of those parents om birth certifit, sayg as her song said, you n’t have parent one and parent two. There has to be a mother and a father, bee she sists that’s the only way a child should be born. And her prry ernment, she said, is to raise the Italian birth rate. And that’s sort of an existential problem for Italy, the olst populatn Europe and have very low birth rate.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But for a lot of her liberal crics, rais alarm bells, bee ’s somethg that the fascist ernment red a lot about. The ia was a tradnal Italian fay populatg the untry wh lots of Italian babi. And that was the way you projected power was also through populatn. And so Meloni emphasizg birth rate, even though really ’s somethg that is agreed upon across the polil spectm, has ma some people unfortable.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Jason, Meloni as a far-right European lear actually looks que unual. First of all, unlike all other far-right lears Europe, she ws, she gas power. But also feels that once power, she starts to chart a more morate path, maybe not fully at home, of urse, but fely ternatnally. And I wonr, is she creatg a new template for other far-right parti Europe or other lears like Mare Le Pen France?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk that Meloni has sort of bee evince to be ed on both sis of the biggt bate gog on Europe right now, which is there’s this eptn of far-right parti, and what is the bt way to al wh them. So one si would say what you need to do is margalize them. We need to get rid of them, keep them taboo, which has been the way Europe has handled this sce World War II.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And then the other si says, they are g up too often, too fast, they’re all over the place. They’re France. They’re Fland. They’re Spa. They’re all over Europe. The only way to handle this is to normalize them, to brg them , to brg them to ernment.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so the people who would make that argument would pot to Grgia Meloni and say, see, here’s Grgia Meloni. She was the most far right of the far-right policians. And now, she’s ernment and she’s erng like a normal center-right nservative. She has been normalized by realy, by the nstrats of budgets, by the nstrats of foreign policy. That is the cure here to this fever. That’s what that si of the bate would say.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So sounds like this new approach that you’ve jt outled to let the far right orr to normalize them as opposed to ostracizg them has kd of worked Meloni’s favor here. I mean, here she is meetg wh Bin and ntug to ga legimacy on the ternatnal stage.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. I mean, ’s fely workg for her. I mean, she’s got this veted meetg. But I thk that om the Whe Hoe perspective — which, by the way, the Uned Stat has been willg to hold s nose to plenty of dictators and unsavory characters throughout history. But this se, I thk that the Uned Stat feels that has a pendable partner on the issu r about most.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Jason, this leav me wonrg if she’s tly morated at some level or if she hasn’t what that means for people or groups that she regularly targets.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, I thk ’s hard to image that after s polics and s steeped hard-right iology that Meloni has had a nversn wh the last year to centrist polics. And there are plenty of people throughout Italy and Europe who rema very worried about what her tentns actually are, whether be rollg back civil rights or gay rights, whether she tends to do somethg stctive to the European Unn.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">She has, though, rejected her nnectns to some of the most vile parts of Italy’s far-right past. That’s beyond doubt. But still, ’s plited. People her party keep gettg ught, actg ways that, to put dly, seem very nostalgic for fascism, whether be plimentg someone’s swastika tattoo or gettg ught dog a fascist salute.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">When I talk to Meloni a year ago, jt before she beme prime mister, we talked about all this. And I was very terted to hear om her how much she was willg to really break wh that past.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What is your view of fascism and Msoli now?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">grgia meloni</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">My view of fascism and Msoli now is that is what I said about 18 years, 15 years ago, not now. That Rsia lov war and privatn of eedom unts more than all the rt.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And one of the thgs that I was terted about is often people that world, they will nmn Msoli. And they will say he was terrible for Italy, bee he got Italy to the Send World War, bee he aligned wh Hler, and bee he passed the racial laws. But then there’s often a but.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">grgia meloni</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Then if you ask me, was the operative to fancy a good thg to help mothers to do children? Y, but that don’t change.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And the but is ually, but he did many great thgs, right? But he draed the swamps Italy. But he passed welfare reforms.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">grgia meloni</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">He did some good thgs, but my judge my judgment about mocracy, about the law, the Rsian laws was a negative one. But we nnot know .</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But I prsed her.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’re cherry-pickg polici, right?</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Regardls of all the veats, did she thk — not the historil judgment — but did she thk that Msoli was bad for Italy?</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The nsens historil view of Msoli is that he was a bad figure history and very bad for Italy. Is that somethg you agree wh?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">grgia meloni</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. Yeah.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And a sort of quiet voice, she said yeah.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so a few months later, she’s now prime mister. And one of the first and most important thgs she do symbolilly is that on Liberatn Day, April, liberatn om fascism, liberatn om the Nazi-n puppet ernment, she wr an open letter to the untry’s largt newspaper. And , she says, quote, “As any hont observer will acknowledge, the right-wg parti parliament have clared their patibily wh any nostalgia for fascism.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So she was immediately tryg to get rid of the shadow of fascism, to st off of her. But at the same time this letter, she sort of dipped back to the old grievanc of her and her iends beg unfairly kept out of society for so long.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So she’s walkg a fe le there.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">She’s walkg a very fe le.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Jason, thank you.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jason horowz</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thank you, Marta. [MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mata stevis-gridneff</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be right back.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Here’s what else you need to know today. In Pakistan on Sunday, an explosn at a polil rally killed at least 35 people and wound 200 more the untry’s latt act of terrorism. The attack, believed to be a suici bombg, occurred at an event anized by an Islamist party that is part of Pakistan’s erng aln. Milant groups have bee more active Pakistan over the last two years sce fdg a haven neighborg Afghanistan unr Taliban le.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today’s episo was produced by Rachelle Bonja, Shannon L, Alex Stern, and Na Feldman. It was eded by Liz O. Baylen and Michael Benoist wh help om Marc Ge, fact-checked by San Lee, ntas origal mic by Dan Powell, Elisheba Ittoop, and Marn Lozano, and was engeered by Chris Wood. Our theme mic is by Jim Bnberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonrly.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s for “The Daily.” I’m Mata Stevis-Gridneff. See you tomorrow.</p></dd></dl></div></div></div></div><div style="posn:absolute;width:0;height:0;visibily:hidn;display:none"></div><hear class="css-1vwfk9f" data-breakpot=""><div style="width:100%" data-ttid="flt-layout"><div style="background-image:url()" class="css-18qqsen e1llfg0"><div class="css-1hmsypo e1llfg2"><div class="css-131hid3 e1llfg3"><div class="css-1uhi299 e1llfg1"></div><div class="css-1tloyb6"><div class="css-1kltdsh ehra6vc0"><a href=" class="css-2ne0py"><span class="css-1f76qa2"><img alt="The Daily logo" src="><span>The Daily</span></span></a><span class="css-1lhttlg ehra6vc1"><span class="css-sj5ozi ehra6vc2">Subscribe:</span><ul class="css-hx5n"><li><a href=" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Apple Podsts</a></li><li><a href=" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Google Podsts</a></li></ul></span></div></div><div class="css-1r0dpua e1llfg4"><div class="css-1gu519p edye5kn0"><div><h1 class="css-1xbyom1 edye5kn2">Italy’s Grgia Meloni Charts a Path for the Far Right</h1><h2 class="css-rlih edye5kn3">A look at the rise of the Italian prime mister and what might mean for Europe.</h2></div><span class="css-lsnb14 edye5kn4"></span><button type="button" class="css-w62hzm" aria-haspopup="te" aria-label="Show Aud Transcript"><div class="css-1vd84sn"><svg xmlns=" width="24" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 20" fill="#F8F8F8"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M0 0H24V20H0V0ZM3 7H21V9H3V7ZM21 11H3V13H21V11ZM3 15H21V17H3V15ZM11 3H3V5H11V3Z" fill="#F8F8F8"></path></svg><span class="css-16bt4xd">Transcript</span></div></button></div><div class="css-1g7y0i5 e1drnplw0"><button tabx="100" class="css-1rtlxy" type="button" aria-label="close"><svg width="60" height="60" viewBox="0 0 60 60" fill="none"><circle cx="30" cy="30" r="30" fill="whe" fill-opacy="0.9"></circle><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M38.4844 20.1006L39.8986 21.5148L21.5138 39.8996L20.0996 38.4854L38.4844 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M21.5156 20.1006L20.1014 21.5148L38.4862 39.8996L39.9004 38.4854L21.5156 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path></svg></button><div class="css-rdbib0 e1drnplw1"></div><div class="css-18ow4sz e1drnplw2"><div aria-labelledby="modal-tle" role="regn"><hear class="css-1bzlfz"><div class="css-mln36k" id="modal-tle">transcript</div><button type="button" class="css-1igvuto"><div class="css-f40pzg"></div><span>Back to The Daily</span></button><div class="css-f6lhej" data-ttid="transcript-playback-ntrols"><div class="css-1ialerq"><button tabx="99" type="button" class="css-1t9gw" aria-label="play"><svg xmlns=" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M8 13.7683V6L14.5 9.88415L8 13.7683Z" fill="var(--lor-ntent-sendary,#363636)"></path><circle cx="10" cy="10" r="9.25" stroke="var(--lor-stroke-primary,#121212)" stroke-width="1.5"></circle></svg></button><div class="css-1701swk"><svg xmlns=" viewBox="0 0 40 36" id="el_0kpS9qL_S"><tle>bars .