Christopher Hchens – On Gay Marriage and Christiany | Geni

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• ON GAY MARRIAGE AND CHRISTIANYCHRISTOPHER HCHENSFEATURGBRIAN LAMB & ANDREW SULLIVANA SHORT CLIP OM A LL- SEGMENT OM C-SPAN’S WASHGTON JOURNAL 2002 WHICH JOURNALISTS CHRISTOPHER HCHENS AND ANDREW SULLIVAN EXPRS THEIR OPNS ON GAY… READ MORE 1 VIEWER5.7K VIEWS4 CONTRIBUTORSON GAY MARRIAGE AND CHRISTIANY LYRICSBRIAN LAMB: ORLANDO FLORIDA, REPUBLIN LE.CALLER #1: WHAT I'M GOG TO SAY IS PROBABLY GOG TO BE PRETTY UPSETTG TO BOTH OF YOU GENTLEMEN BUT I'M GOG TO BE AS STRAIGHT FORWARD AS I N AND I DON'T WANT TO BE CUT OFF WHILE I'M SAYG TOO. HETEROSEXUALS, WE GET MARRIED BEE OUR MARRIAGE IS SEALED BY GOD. WE FOLLOW THE LETTER OF THE LAW. NOW, WE'RE NOT PERFECT BUT WE DO. NOW YOU'RE SAYG, WE FOLLOW THE GOD OF WHO? NOT JT ANY GOD, NOT JT ANY PAGAN GOD; THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JAB. THE SAME ON THAT THE MLIMS, I MEAN YOU KNOW THEY CLAIM 'S THE SAME, AND THE JEWS - AND THAT'S WHY SAME SEX MARRIAGE IS AN ISSUE.ANDREW SULLIVAN: I WOULD JT POT OUT TO YOU THAT YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DO THAT, BUT WE DO NOT LIVE A THEOCRATIC STATE. THERE IS A SEPARATN BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE. FOR EXAMPLE IS AGAST, CLEARLY ABSOLUTELY CLEARLY, THE L OF ABRAHAM AND ED OF CHRISTIANY THAT YOU N DIVORCE. IT IS FORBIDN BUT AS CIZENS A CIVIL SOCIETY YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO A CIVIL DIVORCE. THIS IS A SOCIETY BASED ON A SEPARATN OF CHURCH AND STATE. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY, AND I WOULD FEND YOUR RIGHT TO EXCLU HOMOSEXUALS OM MARRIAGE YOUR NGREGATNS OR WHENEVER YOU WOULD SEE F - ALTHOUGH I WOULD DISAGREE WH YOU. BUT AS A MATTER OF CIVIL RIGHTS AND OF THE STATE AND OF A SECULAR SOCIETY, APART OM THE CHURCH, YOU'RE WRONG. IT'S A CIVIL RIGHT AND NEEDS TO BE FEND.CALLER #1: WELL THEN LET ME FEND MY SE THEN.ANDREW SULLIVAN: OKAY, YOU GO AHEAD.CALLER #1: WELL, THERE REALLY ISN'T A SEPARATN BETWEEN THE CHURCH AND THE STATE. THERE IS TECHNILLY, BUT NOT REALLY. AND I HAVE ANOTHER QUTN FOR YOU: WHAT IF A MAN SAYS THAT HE WAS VERY ATTRACTED TO A BEAST AND HE CID THAT HE WAS BORN BY NATURE TO BE WH THAT BEAST? BE A DOG, OR BE WHATEVER... AND HE JT CIS HE WANTS TO MARRY ... I MEAN HOW FAR SOCIETY ARE WE GOG TO GO?ANDREW SULLIVAN: I'M SORRY BUT I FD THE EQUATN OF A HUMAN BEG TO A BEAST, OF HOMOSEXUALS TO ANIMALS, TO BE SOMETHG THAT I AM ACTUALLY BENEATH ANSWERG.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: IT SEEMED TO ME THAT WHEN YOU SAID THAT SEPARATN OF CHURCH AND STATE WAS TECHNIL ONLY, RATHER THAN ACTUAL, THAT YOU HAD TO BE SCRIBG THE NSTUTN AS A TECHNILY THAT STANCE WHICH I HOPE WOULD BE FOR MOST LISTENERS, WELL MOST VIEWERS RATHER, A SUFFICIENT REBUTTAL; THE NSTUTN STAT VERY EXPLICLY THAT THE ERNMENT NNOT NCERN SELF WH THE BS OF RELIGN. THIS DON'T MEAN THAT RELIG PEOPLE N'T NCERN THEMSELV WH THE BS OF ERNMENT, NO ONE TENDS TO MEAN THAT. ANDREW AND I HAVE PROBABLY OUR BIGGT DISAGREEMENT ON THIS VERY POT - HE REGARDS HIMSELF AS, SOME WAY, CREATED AND SUPERVISED BY A SUPREME BEG... I N'T THK HOW ANYONE PEOPL SUCH A... THEY ALSO THK 'S A VERY HORRIBLE IA, THE IA OF CRADLE TO GRAVE VIGILATN. NOT ONLY DO STOP AT THE GRAVE, ACRDG TO PEOPLE LIKE ANDREW. I THK 'S A REALLY IGHTENG AND NSEATG WISH TO BE A SLAVE. FORTUNATELY, THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THERE'S ANY EVINCE FOR AT ALL.BRIAN LAMB: TENNSEE, YOU'RE ON. GO AHEAD.CALLER #2: OH, GOOD MORNG, BRIAN, CHRISTOPHER AND ANDREW. HOW ARE YOU TODAY?BRIAN LAMB: GOOD.CALLER #2: I WAS VERY TAKEN ABACK BY THE STATEMENT OM THE PREV LLER WHO EVINTLY THKS THEY'RE CHRISTIAN BEE THEY N BE BUT WE CHRISTIANS N'T BE AND I WAS VERY TAKEN ABACK BEE OF WHAT SHE WAS SAYG WAS ACTUALLY STEMMG OM WHAT HAPPENED THE GARN OF EN AND ADAM AND EVE WERE EXPELLED OM THE GARN OF EN AND THAT WAS AFTER THIS FALL OF MANKD, YOU KNOW, S ENTERED THE WORLD AND PEOPLE FOT WHO GOD WAS AND WANTED TO GO THE WRONG WAY. FROM THAT, WANTG TO GO THE WRONG WAY HAS STEMMED A PERVERSY OF MARRIAGE THAT WAS ORDAED BY GOD THE GARN OF EN BETWEEN MAN AND ONE WOMAN. ONE MAN, ONE WOMAN. EVERYTHG HAS STEMMED OM THAT. WELL, THE PREV LLER, WHICH IS A FAR EXTREME TO BTIALY, THAT IS SO ABHORRENT TO GOD. AS IS ANYTHG THAT IS OF HIS DIVE NATURE.BRIAN LAMB: THANKS, LLER. LET'S TALK WH CHRISTOPHER HCHENS ON THIS. WHAT'RE YOU THKG?CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: I WAS THKG ABOUT THE TALKG SNAKE AND THE GARN OF EN AND ALL THE SISTER FAIRY TAL. I MEAN, THE LLER SOUNDS SO SWEET I ALMOST DIDN'T WANT TO SAY WHAT I THK ABOUT THE HORROR OF THE BELIEFS.BRIAN LAMB: YOU DO NOT BELIEVE ANY OF THIS?CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: I THK IS A VERY NASTY FAIRYTALE AND I'M VERY RELIEVED THAT 'S NOT TE.BRIAN LAMB: ARE YOU AN ATHEIST?CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: I'M AN ANTI-THEIST. IN OTHER WORDS, 'S NOT THAT I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A GOD. I THK THAT THE DISVERY THERE ISN'T IS A HUGE RELIEF BEE WOULD BE LIKE LIVG A CELTIAL NORTH KOREA, IF THERE WAS ONE. YOU WOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO PE THIS ATTENTN. IT WOULD BE EVEN WORSE IF WAS BENIGN, AS SOME PEOPLE CLAIM TO BE. I THK 'S A HORRIBLE IA. I THK OM THE SLAVE ELEMENT WH : THE WISH TO BE LOOKED AFTER AND PROTECTED AND SOME SENSE OWNED, WHICH I REPUDIATE WH EVERY FIBRE OF MYSELF.ANDREW SULLIVAN: WELL, CHRISTOPHER...CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: THAT'S WHAT I REALLY BELIEVE, IF YOU WANT I'LL TELL YOU WHAT I REALLY THK ABOUT RELIGN. THAT'S THE BASE OF .ANDREW SULLIVAN: WE N E TOGETHER ON THE NSTUTN... WE N BOTH EXIST THIS REPUBLIC AS CIVIL PEOPLE BUT I MT SAY THAT THE NOTN THAT BELIEF GOD AND LOVE OF CHRIST IS SOME SORT OF PERMANENT SLAVERY THAT ON LIV ON LIFE NTROLLED AND UNABLE TO HAVE EEDOM, TO ME AT LEAST AS SOMEONE WHO IS A BELIEVER, IS A MIS-SCRIPTN OF THE WAY IS. IN FACT, IS A FORM OF LIBERATN. WHOUT , I KNOW I ULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN THROUGH WHATEVER LIFE HAS THROWN MY WAY AND I ALSO KNOW MY HEART OF HEARTS THAT MY BEG GAY IS SOMETHG ALSO THAT GOD LOV AND WANTS ME TO BRG TO S BT UN. BUT LIKE STRAIGHT PEOPLE OR GAY PEOPLE, WE N ALL S, WE N ALL GO AWAY OM GOD, BUT FOR ME CHRISTIANY IS NOT SLAVERY 'S LIBERATN AND THE ABILY TO HAVE SOME PERSPECTIVE ON THE WORLD, SOME PLACE TO GO, WHERE THIS WORLDS DAILY PRSUR DO NOT GET YOU AND NNOT GET YOU IS AN CREDIBLY LIBERATG AND IMPORTANT EXPERIENCE AND SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE AND I AM VERY GLAD THAT GOD IS AN EAR.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: SEE, ALL THAT'S SUPPOSED TO SOUND, AND DO A WAY, MOST AND HUMBLE AND SO FORTH BUT THK OF ALL THE CREDIBLY SOLIPSISTIC AND ARROGANT CLAIM REALLY IS. YOU CLAIM TO KNOW WHAT GOD WANTS.ANDREW SULLIVAN: NO, I DON'T.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: YOU CLAIM TO THK HE HAS A PLAN FOR YOU.ANDREW SULLIVAN: NO, I DO THK THAT BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: UNBELIEVABLE NCE OF THE SUPPOSEDLY HUMBLE AND MEEK... HERE'S WHY I THK 'S THORARIAN... I'M TOLD, THERE WAS A HUMAN SACRIFICE THAT TOOK PLACE 2000 YEARS OR SO AGO, WHICH I HAD NO SAY WHICH WOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN PLACE IF I'D HAVE HAD ANYTHG TO DO WH , BUT WHICH HAS SAVED ME WHETHER I WANT TO BE SAVED OR NOT. I DON'T LIKE TO BE TALKED TO THAT TONE OF VOICE.ANDREW SULLIVAN: WELL, THEN YOU'RE TALKG ABOUT A CERTA KD OF...CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: I REALLY DON'T. WHEN ISN'T SICKLY 'S RATHER THORARIAN THAT KD OF TALK, AND YOU MANAGED TO DO YOUR OWN QUTN IS A TY ELEMENT OF EASE.BRIAN LAMB: TULSA, OKLAHOMA. THE DEMOCRAT LE.CALLER #3: HEY, I MAY BE... RRECT ME IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN, YOU SAID THAT YOU'RE GAY.ANDREW SULLIVAN: THAT I AM, Y.CALLER #3: OKAY, SO THAT'S HOMOSEXUAL...ANDREW SULLIVAN: Y.CALLER #3: OKAY, AND YOU SAID THAT YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN ALSO?ANDREW SULLIVAN: I DID.CALLER #3: OKAY, WELL THERE'S A LETTER THAT WAS WRTEN TO THE CHURCH THAT WAS ROME A LONG TIME AGO THE NEW TTAMENT AND SPEAKS OF A, IF YOU DON'T MD I'LL JT QUOTE, SAYS "THE WRATH OF GOD IS BEG REVEALED OM HEAVEN AGAST ALL GODLSNS AND WICKEDNS OF MEN WHO SUPPRS THE TTH BY THEIR WICKEDNS SCE WHAT MAY BE KNOWN ABOUT GOD HAS PLAGUED THEM, BEE GOD'S MA PLA TO THEM.... AND HAVE BEEN CLEARLY SEEN, BEG UNRSTOOD OM WHAT HAS BEEN MA." IT SAYS RIGHT HERE, THAT SAYS "ALTHOUGH THEY KNEW GOD THEY DIDN'T GLORIFY HIM AS GOD OR GIVE HIM THANKS BUT THEIR THKG BEME PURE AND THEIR FOOLISH HEART WAS DARKENED" AND MY POT IS G UP: "ALTHOUGH CLAIMG TO BE WISE, THEY BEME FOOLS AND EXCHANGED THE GLORY OF THE IMMORAL GOD FOR IMAG REMBLG MORTAL MAN AND BIRDS AND ANIMALS AND REPTIL." OKAY, SAYS "SO THEREFORE GOD GAVE THEM OVER THE SFUL SIR OF THEIR HEARTS TO SEXUAL IMPURY FOR THE GRADG OF THEIR BODI WH ONE ANOTHER. THEY EXCHANGED THE TTH OF GOD FOR A LIE AND WORSHIPPED AND SERVED THE CREATURE RATHER THAN THE CREATOR" (ROMANS 1:18-32 NIV)BRIAN LAMB: THANKS, CALLER.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: I WAS ABOUT TO SAY, HOW MUCH MORE OF THAT WERE YOU GOG TO TAKE.ANDREW SULLIVAN: HE'S CG, I THK HE'S CG ROMANS, WHICH AND HE'S LEADG UP TO THE NMNATN OF HOMOSEXUALY OR AT LEAST WHAT ST. PL SEEMED TO THK WAS HOMOSEXUALY. LET ME SAY I WILL LEAVE YOUR NSCIENCE TO YOU AND YOUR GOD AND MAYBE YOU WILL LEAVE ME AND MY NSCIENCE TO ME AND ME. MORE BROADLY SPEAKG, THERE IS ENORMO BUNCH OF THGS THE GOSPELS AND NOT THE GOSPELS BUT THE BIBLE AND THE OLD TTAMENT WHICH ARE CLEARLY FORBIDN. FOR EXAMPLE ALL SORTS OF KOSHER REGULATNS, NOT MANY CHRISTIANS NTEMPORARILY FOLLOW THOSE KOSHER REGULATNS. IN FACT, THE BIBLE SAYS THAT IF YOU ARE GAY YOU SHOULD BE STONED TO ATH. THIS IS A PRACTICE THAT IS UPHELD MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD. WHAT I WOULD ASK OF ANY CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALIST WHO BELIEV THIS...CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THIS BOOK IS THE WORK OF GOD?ANDREW SULLIVAN: I BELIEVE THAT 'S SPIRED BY THE WORD OF GOD...CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: WELL, THEN I LEAVE YOU WH .ANDREW SULLIVAN: I'VE LIVED WH MY ENTIRE LIFE, CHRISTOPHER. YOU'RE WELE.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: BUT YOU JT SAID TO THIS GUY, YOU N HAVE YOUR GOD AND I N HAVE ME.ANDREW SULLIVAN: NO I DID NOT.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: WHY... Y YOU DID.ANDREW SULLIVAN: NO I DID NOT, I SAID YOU N'T...CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: IT'S THE WORD OF GOD OR 'S NOT, SURELY.ANDREW SULLIVAN: THERE ARE MANY MANY THEM CHRISTIAN BELIEF AND ONE OF THEM, ONLY ONE OF THEM, IS A FUNDAMENTALIST ONE WHICH EVERY SGLE WORD OF THE BIBLE IS ABSOLUTELY, LERALLY, TE. I DON'T HAPPEN TO HOLD THAT PARTICULAR VIEW, I'M A CATHOLIC I BELIEVE THE BIBLE HAS TO BE TERPRETED THROUGH ONE'S OWN EXPERIENCE, ONE'S OWN FAH EXPERIENCE, THROUGH TRADN OF THE CHURCH AND THE SCRIPTUR.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: TRADN OF THE CHURCH IS TO SAY THAT SOMETHG THAT'S SENTIAL TO YOUR NATURE IS A FILTHY S.ANDREW SULLIVAN: NO ISN'T, LET ME JT RRECT YOU ON THAT BEE 'S VERY IMPORTANT. THE TEACHG OF THE CHURCH TO WHICH ON THIS MATTER IS NOT A S...CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: THE TEACHG OF THE NON-PAEDOPHILE WG OF THAT CHURCH...ANDREW SULLIVAN: YOU N LEAVE YOUR ANTI-CATHOLIC SLURS ELSEWHERE.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: IT'S NOT ANTI-CATHOLIC....ANDREW SULLIVAN: THE POT... I'M NOT FENDG THOSE PEOPLE EHER. THE CHURCH OFFICIALLY SAYS THAT BEG GAY IS NOT A S. ONLY ACTG UPON A SEXUAL MATTER IS REGARD AS SFUL. THIS....CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: IT'S A WAY OF SAYG HATE THE S AND LOVE THE SNER... THEY'RE TALKG ABOUT YOUR NATURE.ANDREW SULLIVAN: I THK IS WHEN YOU ACTUALLY REFLECT UPON AND READ AND THK ABOUT HERENT. MY BOOK VIRTUALLY NORMAL HAS A WHOLE CHAPTER ALG ON THIS ISSUE.BRIAN LAMB: LET ME SHARE WH YOU ALSO AN E-MAIL...CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: GOOD BOOK, BY THE WAY.ANDREW SULLIVAN: THANK YOU, CHRISTOPHER.BRIAN LAMB: ... OM JOYCE BOY: "CONGRATULATNS YOU REALLY HAVE TWO OF THE LOWT "JOURNALIST" TO GRACE YOUR STAGE TODAY-SEEMS EASY FOR YOU TO TER TO THAT THKG SO EQUENTLY ANY MORE. I JT N'T "GH" HOW WONRFUL C-SPAN IS." J. MONTGOMERY SAYS: "I AM EPLY DISAPPOTED YOU. ANDREW SULLIVAN AND CHRISTOPHER HCHENS? THEY ARE LIKE TWO PEAS ON THE SAME POD. THERE'S NOT A DIM WORTH OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM. THEY ARE BOTH RIGHT WG EXTREMISTS. ANDREW SULLIVAN IS THE WORST OF THE WORST AND HCHENS IS NOT FAR BEHD. I STOPPED MY SUBSCRIPTN TO THE NATN MAGAZE BEE OF HCHENS."CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: RIGHT, WE N TAKE THAT AS A MENT...BRIAN LAMB: SWANSEA, SOUTH CAROLA. YOU'RE NEXT.CALLER #4: WELL, GOOD MORNG, COMPLAT-SPAN. I'D LIKE TO SAY THIS TO: MR. HCHENS MAYBE HE N IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY THE LEFT'S RECEDG FASTER THAN HIS HAIRLE THEN ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID ABOUT RELIGN. HE'S UNWILLG FOR PEOPLE TO LIVE UNR THE TYRANNI OF THEIR OWN NSCIENCE WHICH IS BASILLY WHAT RELIGN IS BUT HE'D BE PERFECTLY HAPPY FOR TO ALL LIVE UNR THE TYRANNY OF A THOAND OR A LN SOCIALIST BURECRATS. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS EXAME THE TELLECTUAL DISHONTY OF THAT TO SEE WHERE HE'S G OM.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: I N LISTEN TO THIS GUY ALL DAY.ANDREW SULLIVAN: IF RECEDG HAIRLE IS A FUNCTN, IS A SIGN OF ONE'S TELLECTUAL CREPU THEN I'M REALLY TROUBLE.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: HOW DO YOU KNOW WHERE MY HAIRLE WAS BEFORE, BY THE WAY?BRIAN LAMB: I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HEARD HIM BUT HE SLIPPED AN TERTG...CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: INTERTG THOUGH, IS HOW VERY OFTEN THE LOVG CHRISTIAN TYP BEG WH A NASTY AD-HOMEM REMARK AND THEY GO ON OF URSE TO GET STUPIR AND STUPIR. THE IA OF LIVG UNR THE TYRANNY OF YOUR OWN NSCIENCE IS NOT WHAT RELIGN SAYS AT ALL. RELIGN SAYS YOU HAVE TO LIVE UNR A TRANSMTED THROUGH HOLY BOOKS AND DIVE WARRANT AND SO ON. THOSE OF WHO LIVE WH THE TYRANNY ONLY OF OUR OWN NSCIENCE AND BELIEF THAT AN ETHIL LIFE N BE LIVED WHOUT REFERENCE TO THE SUPERNATURAL ARE LLED HUMANISTS - OR ATHEISTS, OR MY SE ANTI-THEISTS. YOU HAVE PRECISELY WRONG, SIR, BUT THEN SO YOU WOULD.BRIAN LAMB: DID YOU HEAR HIM SLIP COMPLAT-SPAN?CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: I DID, I THOUGHT THAT WAS SWEET.4EMBEDCANCELHOW TO FORMAT LYRICS:TYPE OUT ALL LYRICS, EVEN REPEATG SONG PARTS LIKE THE CHOSLYRICS SHOULD BE BROKEN DOWN TO DIVIDUAL LUSE SECTN HEARS ABOVE DIFFERENT SONG PARTS LIKE [VERSE], [CHOS], ETC.USE ALICS (<I>LYRIC</I>) AND BOLD (<B>LYRIC</B>) TO DISTGUISH BETWEEN DIFFERENT VOLISTS THE SAME SONG PARTIF YOU DON’T UNRSTAND A LYRIC, E [?]TO LEARN MORE, CHECK OUT OUR TRANSCRIPTN GUI OR VIS OUR TRANSCRIBERS FOMABOUTGENI ANNOTATN1 NTRIBUTORA SHORT CLIP OM A LL- SEGMENT OM C-SPAN’S WASHGTON JOURNAL 2002 WHICH JOURNALISTS CHRISTOPHER HCHENS AND ANDREW SULLIVAN EXPRS THEIR OPNS ON GAY MARRIAGE AND RELIGN WH HOST BRIAN LAMB AND LLERS OM AROUND THE UNED STAT.EXPAND SHAREASK A QUTN ABOUT THIS SONGASK A QUTN *‌CREDSFEATURGBRIAN LAMB & ANDREW SULLIVANTAGSNON-MICNEWS EXPAND COMMENTSADD A MENTSIGN UP AND DROP KNOWLEDGE ?GENI IS THE ULTIMATE SOURCE OF MIC KNOWLEDGE, CREATED BY SCHOLARS LIKE YOU WHO SHARE FACTS AND SIGHT ABOUT THE SONGS AND ARTISTS THEY LOVE.SIGN UPGENI IS THE WORLD’S BIGGT LLECTN OF SONG LYRICS AND MIL KNOWLEDGE
• SO WHO WERE THE TWO TORY MISTERS WHO HAD GAY FLGS WH CHRISTOPHER HCHENS AT OXFORD?
• AUTHOR CHRISTOPHER HCHENS REVEALS GAY FLGS WH TORI
• THE NEW ANTI-GAY BILL PROPOSED GHANA WILL DTROY LIV

ON GAY MARRIAGE AND CHRISTIANYCHRISTOPHER HCHENSFEATURGBRIAN LAMB & ANDREW SULLIVANA SHORT CLIP OM A LL- SEGMENT OM C-SPAN’S WASHGTON JOURNAL 2002 WHICH JOURNALISTS CHRISTOPHER HCHENS AND ANDREW SULLIVAN EXPRS THEIR OPNS ON GAY… READ MORE 1 VIEWER5.7K VIEWS4 CONTRIBUTORSON GAY MARRIAGE AND CHRISTIANY LYRICSBRIAN LAMB: ORLANDO FLORIDA, REPUBLIN LE.CALLER #1: WHAT I'M GOG TO SAY IS PROBABLY GOG TO BE PRETTY UPSETTG TO BOTH OF YOU GENTLEMEN BUT I'M GOG TO BE AS STRAIGHT FORWARD AS I N AND I DON'T WANT TO BE CUT OFF WHILE I'M SAYG TOO. HETEROSEXUALS, WE GET MARRIED BEE OUR MARRIAGE IS SEALED BY GOD. WE FOLLOW THE LETTER OF THE LAW. NOW, WE'RE NOT PERFECT BUT WE DO. NOW YOU'RE SAYG, WE FOLLOW THE GOD OF WHO? NOT JT ANY GOD, NOT JT ANY PAGAN GOD; THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JAB. THE SAME ON THAT THE MLIMS, I MEAN YOU KNOW THEY CLAIM 'S THE SAME, AND THE JEWS - AND THAT'S WHY SAME SEX MARRIAGE IS AN ISSUE.ANDREW SULLIVAN: I WOULD JT POT OUT TO YOU THAT YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DO THAT, BUT WE DO NOT LIVE A THEOCRATIC STATE. THERE IS A SEPARATN BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE. FOR EXAMPLE IS AGAST, CLEARLY ABSOLUTELY CLEARLY, THE L OF ABRAHAM AND ED OF CHRISTIANY THAT YOU N DIVORCE. IT IS FORBIDN BUT AS CIZENS A CIVIL SOCIETY YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO A CIVIL DIVORCE. THIS IS A SOCIETY BASED ON A SEPARATN OF CHURCH AND STATE. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY, AND I WOULD FEND YOUR RIGHT TO EXCLU HOMOSEXUALS OM MARRIAGE YOUR NGREGATNS OR WHENEVER YOU WOULD SEE F - ALTHOUGH I WOULD DISAGREE WH YOU. BUT AS A MATTER OF CIVIL RIGHTS AND OF THE STATE AND OF A SECULAR SOCIETY, APART OM THE CHURCH, YOU'RE WRONG. IT'S A CIVIL RIGHT AND NEEDS TO BE FEND.CALLER #1: WELL THEN LET ME FEND MY SE THEN.ANDREW SULLIVAN: OKAY, YOU GO AHEAD.CALLER #1: WELL, THERE REALLY ISN'T A SEPARATN BETWEEN THE CHURCH AND THE STATE. THERE IS TECHNILLY, BUT NOT REALLY. AND I HAVE ANOTHER QUTN FOR YOU: WHAT IF A MAN SAYS THAT HE WAS VERY ATTRACTED TO A BEAST AND HE CID THAT HE WAS BORN BY NATURE TO BE WH THAT BEAST? BE A DOG, OR BE WHATEVER... AND HE JT CIS HE WANTS TO MARRY ... I MEAN HOW FAR SOCIETY ARE WE GOG TO GO?ANDREW SULLIVAN: I'M SORRY BUT I FD THE EQUATN OF A HUMAN BEG TO A BEAST, OF HOMOSEXUALS TO ANIMALS, TO BE SOMETHG THAT I AM ACTUALLY BENEATH ANSWERG.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: IT SEEMED TO ME THAT WHEN YOU SAID THAT SEPARATN OF CHURCH AND STATE WAS TECHNIL ONLY, RATHER THAN ACTUAL, THAT YOU HAD TO BE SCRIBG THE NSTUTN AS A TECHNILY THAT STANCE WHICH I HOPE WOULD BE FOR MOST LISTENERS, WELL MOST VIEWERS RATHER, A SUFFICIENT REBUTTAL; THE NSTUTN STAT VERY EXPLICLY THAT THE ERNMENT NNOT NCERN SELF WH THE BS OF RELIGN. THIS DON'T MEAN THAT RELIG PEOPLE N'T NCERN THEMSELV WH THE BS OF ERNMENT, NO ONE TENDS TO MEAN THAT. ANDREW AND I HAVE PROBABLY OUR BIGGT DISAGREEMENT ON THIS VERY POT - HE REGARDS HIMSELF AS, SOME WAY, CREATED AND SUPERVISED BY A SUPREME BEG... I N'T THK HOW ANYONE PEOPL SUCH A... THEY ALSO THK 'S A VERY HORRIBLE IA, THE IA OF CRADLE TO GRAVE VIGILATN. NOT ONLY DO STOP AT THE GRAVE, ACRDG TO PEOPLE LIKE ANDREW. I THK 'S A REALLY IGHTENG AND NSEATG WISH TO BE A SLAVE. FORTUNATELY, THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THERE'S ANY EVINCE FOR AT ALL.BRIAN LAMB: TENNSEE, YOU'RE ON. GO AHEAD.CALLER #2: OH, GOOD MORNG, BRIAN, CHRISTOPHER AND ANDREW. HOW ARE YOU TODAY?BRIAN LAMB: GOOD.CALLER #2: I WAS VERY TAKEN ABACK BY THE STATEMENT OM THE PREV LLER WHO EVINTLY THKS THEY'RE CHRISTIAN BEE THEY N BE BUT WE CHRISTIANS N'T BE AND I WAS VERY TAKEN ABACK BEE OF WHAT SHE WAS SAYG WAS ACTUALLY STEMMG OM WHAT HAPPENED THE GARN OF EN AND ADAM AND EVE WERE EXPELLED OM THE GARN OF EN AND THAT WAS AFTER THIS FALL OF MANKD, YOU KNOW, S ENTERED THE WORLD AND PEOPLE FOT WHO GOD WAS AND WANTED TO GO THE WRONG WAY. FROM THAT, WANTG TO GO THE WRONG WAY HAS STEMMED A PERVERSY OF MARRIAGE THAT WAS ORDAED BY GOD THE GARN OF EN BETWEEN MAN AND ONE WOMAN. ONE MAN, ONE WOMAN. EVERYTHG HAS STEMMED OM THAT. WELL, THE PREV LLER, WHICH IS A FAR EXTREME TO BTIALY, THAT IS SO ABHORRENT TO GOD. AS IS ANYTHG THAT IS OF HIS DIVE NATURE.BRIAN LAMB: THANKS, LLER. LET'S TALK WH CHRISTOPHER HCHENS ON THIS. WHAT'RE YOU THKG?CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: I WAS THKG ABOUT THE TALKG SNAKE AND THE GARN OF EN AND ALL THE SISTER FAIRY TAL. I MEAN, THE LLER SOUNDS SO SWEET I ALMOST DIDN'T WANT TO SAY WHAT I THK ABOUT THE HORROR OF THE BELIEFS.BRIAN LAMB: YOU DO NOT BELIEVE ANY OF THIS?CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: I THK IS A VERY NASTY FAIRYTALE AND I'M VERY RELIEVED THAT 'S NOT TE.BRIAN LAMB: ARE YOU AN ATHEIST?CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: I'M AN ANTI-THEIST. IN OTHER WORDS, 'S NOT THAT I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A GOD. I THK THAT THE DISVERY THERE ISN'T IS A HUGE RELIEF BEE WOULD BE LIKE LIVG A CELTIAL NORTH KOREA, IF THERE WAS ONE. YOU WOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO PE THIS ATTENTN. IT WOULD BE EVEN WORSE IF WAS BENIGN, AS SOME PEOPLE CLAIM TO BE. I THK 'S A HORRIBLE IA. I THK OM THE SLAVE ELEMENT WH : THE WISH TO BE LOOKED AFTER AND PROTECTED AND SOME SENSE OWNED, WHICH I REPUDIATE WH EVERY FIBRE OF MYSELF.ANDREW SULLIVAN: WELL, CHRISTOPHER...CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: THAT'S WHAT I REALLY BELIEVE, IF YOU WANT I'LL TELL YOU WHAT I REALLY THK ABOUT RELIGN. THAT'S THE BASE OF .ANDREW SULLIVAN: WE N E TOGETHER ON THE NSTUTN... WE N BOTH EXIST THIS REPUBLIC AS CIVIL PEOPLE BUT I MT SAY THAT THE NOTN THAT BELIEF GOD AND LOVE OF CHRIST IS SOME SORT OF PERMANENT SLAVERY THAT ON LIV ON LIFE NTROLLED AND UNABLE TO HAVE EEDOM, TO ME AT LEAST AS SOMEONE WHO IS A BELIEVER, IS A MIS-SCRIPTN OF THE WAY IS. IN FACT, IS A FORM OF LIBERATN. WHOUT , I KNOW I ULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN THROUGH WHATEVER LIFE HAS THROWN MY WAY AND I ALSO KNOW MY HEART OF HEARTS THAT MY BEG GAY IS SOMETHG ALSO THAT GOD LOV AND WANTS ME TO BRG TO S BT UN. BUT LIKE STRAIGHT PEOPLE OR GAY PEOPLE, WE N ALL S, WE N ALL GO AWAY OM GOD, BUT FOR ME CHRISTIANY IS NOT SLAVERY 'S LIBERATN AND THE ABILY TO HAVE SOME PERSPECTIVE ON THE WORLD, SOME PLACE TO GO, WHERE THIS WORLDS DAILY PRSUR DO NOT GET YOU AND NNOT GET YOU IS AN CREDIBLY LIBERATG AND IMPORTANT EXPERIENCE AND SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE AND I AM VERY GLAD THAT GOD IS AN EAR.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: SEE, ALL THAT'S SUPPOSED TO SOUND, AND DO A WAY, MOST AND HUMBLE AND SO FORTH BUT THK OF ALL THE CREDIBLY SOLIPSISTIC AND ARROGANT CLAIM REALLY IS. YOU CLAIM TO KNOW WHAT GOD WANTS.ANDREW SULLIVAN: NO, I DON'T.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: YOU CLAIM TO THK HE HAS A PLAN FOR YOU.ANDREW SULLIVAN: NO, I DO THK THAT BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: UNBELIEVABLE NCE OF THE SUPPOSEDLY HUMBLE AND MEEK... HERE'S WHY I THK 'S THORARIAN... I'M TOLD, THERE WAS A HUMAN SACRIFICE THAT TOOK PLACE 2000 YEARS OR SO AGO, WHICH I HAD NO SAY WHICH WOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN PLACE IF I'D HAVE HAD ANYTHG TO DO WH , BUT WHICH HAS SAVED ME WHETHER I WANT TO BE SAVED OR NOT. I DON'T LIKE TO BE TALKED TO THAT TONE OF VOICE.ANDREW SULLIVAN: WELL, THEN YOU'RE TALKG ABOUT A CERTA KD OF...CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: I REALLY DON'T. WHEN ISN'T SICKLY 'S RATHER THORARIAN THAT KD OF TALK, AND YOU MANAGED TO DO YOUR OWN QUTN IS A TY ELEMENT OF EASE.BRIAN LAMB: TULSA, OKLAHOMA. THE DEMOCRAT LE.CALLER #3: HEY, I MAY BE... RRECT ME IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN, YOU SAID THAT YOU'RE GAY.ANDREW SULLIVAN: THAT I AM, Y.CALLER #3: OKAY, SO THAT'S HOMOSEXUAL...ANDREW SULLIVAN: Y.CALLER #3: OKAY, AND YOU SAID THAT YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN ALSO?ANDREW SULLIVAN: I DID.CALLER #3: OKAY, WELL THERE'S A LETTER THAT WAS WRTEN TO THE CHURCH THAT WAS ROME A LONG TIME AGO THE NEW TTAMENT AND SPEAKS OF A, IF YOU DON'T MD I'LL JT QUOTE, SAYS "THE WRATH OF GOD IS BEG REVEALED OM HEAVEN AGAST ALL GODLSNS AND WICKEDNS OF MEN WHO SUPPRS THE TTH BY THEIR WICKEDNS SCE WHAT MAY BE KNOWN ABOUT GOD HAS PLAGUED THEM, BEE GOD'S MA PLA TO THEM.... AND HAVE BEEN CLEARLY SEEN, BEG UNRSTOOD OM WHAT HAS BEEN MA." IT SAYS RIGHT HERE, THAT SAYS "ALTHOUGH THEY KNEW GOD THEY DIDN'T GLORIFY HIM AS GOD OR GIVE HIM THANKS BUT THEIR THKG BEME PURE AND THEIR FOOLISH HEART WAS DARKENED" AND MY POT IS G UP: "ALTHOUGH CLAIMG TO BE WISE, THEY BEME FOOLS AND EXCHANGED THE GLORY OF THE IMMORAL GOD FOR IMAG REMBLG MORTAL MAN AND BIRDS AND ANIMALS AND REPTIL." OKAY, SAYS "SO THEREFORE GOD GAVE THEM OVER THE SFUL SIR OF THEIR HEARTS TO SEXUAL IMPURY FOR THE GRADG OF THEIR BODI WH ONE ANOTHER. THEY EXCHANGED THE TTH OF GOD FOR A LIE AND WORSHIPPED AND SERVED THE CREATURE RATHER THAN THE CREATOR" (ROMANS 1:18-32 NIV)BRIAN LAMB: THANKS, CALLER.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: I WAS ABOUT TO SAY, HOW MUCH MORE OF THAT WERE YOU GOG TO TAKE.ANDREW SULLIVAN: HE'S CG, I THK HE'S CG ROMANS, WHICH AND HE'S LEADG UP TO THE NMNATN OF HOMOSEXUALY OR AT LEAST WHAT ST. PL SEEMED TO THK WAS HOMOSEXUALY. LET ME SAY I WILL LEAVE YOUR NSCIENCE TO YOU AND YOUR GOD AND MAYBE YOU WILL LEAVE ME AND MY NSCIENCE TO ME AND ME. MORE BROADLY SPEAKG, THERE IS ENORMO BUNCH OF THGS THE GOSPELS AND NOT THE GOSPELS BUT THE BIBLE AND THE OLD TTAMENT WHICH ARE CLEARLY FORBIDN. FOR EXAMPLE ALL SORTS OF KOSHER REGULATNS, NOT MANY CHRISTIANS NTEMPORARILY FOLLOW THOSE KOSHER REGULATNS. IN FACT, THE BIBLE SAYS THAT IF YOU ARE GAY YOU SHOULD BE STONED TO ATH. THIS IS A PRACTICE THAT IS UPHELD MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD. WHAT I WOULD ASK OF ANY CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALIST WHO BELIEV THIS...CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THIS BOOK IS THE WORK OF GOD?ANDREW SULLIVAN: I BELIEVE THAT 'S SPIRED BY THE WORD OF GOD...CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: WELL, THEN I LEAVE YOU WH .ANDREW SULLIVAN: I'VE LIVED WH MY ENTIRE LIFE, CHRISTOPHER. YOU'RE WELE.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: BUT YOU JT SAID TO THIS GUY, YOU N HAVE YOUR GOD AND I N HAVE ME.ANDREW SULLIVAN: NO I DID NOT.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: WHY... Y YOU DID.ANDREW SULLIVAN: NO I DID NOT, I SAID YOU N'T...CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: IT'S THE WORD OF GOD OR 'S NOT, SURELY.ANDREW SULLIVAN: THERE ARE MANY MANY THEM CHRISTIAN BELIEF AND ONE OF THEM, ONLY ONE OF THEM, IS A FUNDAMENTALIST ONE WHICH EVERY SGLE WORD OF THE BIBLE IS ABSOLUTELY, LERALLY, TE. I DON'T HAPPEN TO HOLD THAT PARTICULAR VIEW, I'M A CATHOLIC I BELIEVE THE BIBLE HAS TO BE TERPRETED THROUGH ONE'S OWN EXPERIENCE, ONE'S OWN FAH EXPERIENCE, THROUGH TRADN OF THE CHURCH AND THE SCRIPTUR.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: TRADN OF THE CHURCH IS TO SAY THAT SOMETHG THAT'S SENTIAL TO YOUR NATURE IS A FILTHY S.ANDREW SULLIVAN: NO ISN'T, LET ME JT RRECT YOU ON THAT BEE 'S VERY IMPORTANT. THE TEACHG OF THE CHURCH TO WHICH ON THIS MATTER IS NOT A S...CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: THE TEACHG OF THE NON-PAEDOPHILE WG OF THAT CHURCH...ANDREW SULLIVAN: YOU N LEAVE YOUR ANTI-CATHOLIC SLURS ELSEWHERE.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: IT'S NOT ANTI-CATHOLIC....ANDREW SULLIVAN: THE POT... I'M NOT FENDG THOSE PEOPLE EHER. THE CHURCH OFFICIALLY SAYS THAT BEG GAY IS NOT A S. ONLY ACTG UPON A SEXUAL MATTER IS REGARD AS SFUL. THIS....CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: IT'S A WAY OF SAYG HATE THE S AND LOVE THE SNER... THEY'RE TALKG ABOUT YOUR NATURE.ANDREW SULLIVAN: I THK IS WHEN YOU ACTUALLY REFLECT UPON AND READ AND THK ABOUT HERENT. MY BOOK VIRTUALLY NORMAL HAS A WHOLE CHAPTER ALG ON THIS ISSUE.BRIAN LAMB: LET ME SHARE WH YOU ALSO AN E-MAIL...CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: GOOD BOOK, BY THE WAY.ANDREW SULLIVAN: THANK YOU, CHRISTOPHER.BRIAN LAMB: ... OM JOYCE BOY: "CONGRATULATNS YOU REALLY HAVE TWO OF THE LOWT "JOURNALIST" TO GRACE YOUR STAGE TODAY-SEEMS EASY FOR YOU TO TER TO THAT THKG SO EQUENTLY ANY MORE. I JT N'T "GH" HOW WONRFUL C-SPAN IS." J. MONTGOMERY SAYS: "I AM EPLY DISAPPOTED YOU. ANDREW SULLIVAN AND CHRISTOPHER HCHENS? THEY ARE LIKE TWO PEAS ON THE SAME POD. THERE'S NOT A DIM WORTH OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM. THEY ARE BOTH RIGHT WG EXTREMISTS. ANDREW SULLIVAN IS THE WORST OF THE WORST AND HCHENS IS NOT FAR BEHD. I STOPPED MY SUBSCRIPTN TO THE NATN MAGAZE BEE OF HCHENS."CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: RIGHT, WE N TAKE THAT AS A MENT...BRIAN LAMB: SWANSEA, SOUTH CAROLA. YOU'RE NEXT.CALLER #4: WELL, GOOD MORNG, COMPLAT-SPAN. I'D LIKE TO SAY THIS TO: MR. HCHENS MAYBE HE N IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY THE LEFT'S RECEDG FASTER THAN HIS HAIRLE THEN ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID ABOUT RELIGN. HE'S UNWILLG FOR PEOPLE TO LIVE UNR THE TYRANNI OF THEIR OWN NSCIENCE WHICH IS BASILLY WHAT RELIGN IS BUT HE'D BE PERFECTLY HAPPY FOR TO ALL LIVE UNR THE TYRANNY OF A THOAND OR A LN SOCIALIST BURECRATS. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS EXAME THE TELLECTUAL DISHONTY OF THAT TO SEE WHERE HE'S G OM.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: I N LISTEN TO THIS GUY ALL DAY.ANDREW SULLIVAN: IF RECEDG HAIRLE IS A FUNCTN, IS A SIGN OF ONE'S TELLECTUAL CREPU THEN I'M REALLY TROUBLE.CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: HOW DO YOU KNOW WHERE MY HAIRLE WAS BEFORE, BY THE WAY?BRIAN LAMB: I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HEARD HIM BUT HE SLIPPED AN TERTG...CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: INTERTG THOUGH, IS HOW VERY OFTEN THE LOVG CHRISTIAN TYP BEG WH A NASTY AD-HOMEM REMARK AND THEY GO ON OF URSE TO GET STUPIR AND STUPIR. THE IA OF LIVG UNR THE TYRANNY OF YOUR OWN NSCIENCE IS NOT WHAT RELIGN SAYS AT ALL. RELIGN SAYS YOU HAVE TO LIVE UNR A TRANSMTED THROUGH HOLY BOOKS AND DIVE WARRANT AND SO ON. THOSE OF WHO LIVE WH THE TYRANNY ONLY OF OUR OWN NSCIENCE AND BELIEF THAT AN ETHIL LIFE N BE LIVED WHOUT REFERENCE TO THE SUPERNATURAL ARE LLED HUMANISTS - OR ATHEISTS, OR MY SE ANTI-THEISTS. YOU HAVE PRECISELY WRONG, SIR, BUT THEN SO YOU WOULD.BRIAN LAMB: DID YOU HEAR HIM SLIP COMPLAT-SPAN?CHRISTOPHER HCHENS: I DID, I THOUGHT THAT WAS SWEET.4EMBEDCANCELHOW TO FORMAT LYRICS:TYPE OUT ALL LYRICS, EVEN REPEATG SONG PARTS LIKE THE CHOSLYRICS SHOULD BE BROKEN DOWN TO DIVIDUAL LUSE SECTN HEARS ABOVE DIFFERENT SONG PARTS LIKE [VERSE], [CHOS], ETC.USE ALICS (<I>LYRIC</I>) AND BOLD (<B>LYRIC</B>) TO DISTGUISH BETWEEN DIFFERENT VOLISTS THE SAME SONG PARTIF YOU DON’T UNRSTAND A LYRIC, E [?]TO LEARN MORE, CHECK OUT OUR TRANSCRIPTN GUI OR VIS OUR TRANSCRIBERS FOMABOUTGENI ANNOTATN1 NTRIBUTORA SHORT CLIP OM A LL- SEGMENT OM C-SPAN’S WASHGTON JOURNAL 2002 WHICH JOURNALISTS CHRISTOPHER HCHENS AND ANDREW SULLIVAN EXPRS THEIR OPNS ON GAY MARRIAGE AND RELIGN WH HOST BRIAN LAMB AND LLERS OM AROUND THE UNED STAT.EXPAND SHAREASK A QUTN ABOUT THIS SONGASK A QUTN *‌CREDSFEATURGBRIAN LAMB & ANDREW SULLIVANTAGSNON-MICNEWS EXPAND COMMENTSADD A MENTSIGN UP AND DROP KNOWLEDGE ?GENI IS THE ULTIMATE SOURCE OF MIC KNOWLEDGE, CREATED BY SCHOLARS LIKE YOU WHO SHARE FACTS AND SIGHT ABOUT THE SONGS AND ARTISTS THEY LOVE.SIGN UPGENI IS THE WORLD’S BIGGT LLECTN OF SONG LYRICS AND MIL KNOWLEDGE

You are absolutely, and I would fend your right to exclu homosexuals om marriage your ngregatns or whenever you would see f - although I would disagree wh you.

Andrew Sullivan: I'm sorry but I fd the equatn of a human beg to a beast, of homosexuals to animals, to be somethg that I am actually beneath answerg. Whout , I know I uldn't have gotten through whatever life has thrown my way and I also know my heart of hearts that my beg gay is somethg also that God lov and wants me to brg to s bt un. But like straight people or gay people, we n all s, we n all go away om god, but for me Christiany is not slavery 's liberatn and the abily to have some perspective on the world, some place to go, where this worlds daily prsur do not get you and nnot get you is an credibly liberatg and important experience and so many people have and I am very glad that God is an ear.

SO WHO WERE THE TWO TORY MISTERS WHO HAD GAY FLGS WH CHRISTOPHER HCHENS AT OXFORD?

Christopher Hchens: I was about to say, how much more of that were you gog to Sullivan: He's cg, I thk he's cg Romans, which and he's leadg up to the nmnatn of homosexualy or at least what St. Pl seemed to thk was homosexualy. In fact, the Bible says that if you are gay you should be stoned to ath.

The church officially says that beg gay is not a s. Attemptg to expla this dissonance between the knowg and the guilels, and between the cynil world of gay-domated mil edy and the blamels universe of Bertie and the Earl, I once proposed that Wohoe mt have seen or read The Importance of Beg Earnt and somehow sublimated . )I had once thought, rather simple-mdly, that Wohoe's downplayg of Wil might have to do wh a revulsn om homosexualy.

And his few referenc to the subject his non-fictnal life—he lled "homosexualism"—are generally dly disobligg. But I learned om McCm that the terwar years he ed to thoroughly enjoy stayg wh a antly gay , efully named Charl Le Strange, who owned an eccentric but well-appoted untry hoe East Anglia.

AUTHOR CHRISTOPHER HCHENS REVEALS GAY FLGS WH TORI

Well, there's no real pot to a childls marriage, as the supporters of gay adoptn have admted.

Norman Mailer, sane as ever, announced that lerary England was the grips of a gay bal led by Amis, Hchens and Haton. Which two misters of Margaret Thatcher's ernment had gay relatns wh the wrer Christopher Hchens while at Oxford?

Acrdg to one ntemporary: 'He had a reputatn for beg AC/DC and, although a Trot, he was fancied by que a few gay Tori and moved those circl. ' Controversy: Christopher Hchens said he had gay relatns wh two members of Thatcher's bet while at OxfordYet Hchens was himself the victim of unrequed lt for two other men, one of them beg his lifelong iend, the novelist Mart Amis, which is only hted at his book.

THE NEW ANTI-GAY BILL PROPOSED GHANA WILL DTROY LIV

1981 and recently took Amerin cizenship, dismiss the homosexual episos as a 'dly enjoyable relapse' to somethg that began when he was at school. Jackson, whom Cherwell's diarist scribed at the time as a 'gay, trendy Conservative', helped Hchens by arrangg for the arch-Left-wg tra unnist (who later led the mers' strike that weakened Edward Heath) to stay at the gt llege and breakfast wh the Fellows the morng.