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class="ContentHearHedAccredatnWrapper-GFiQf cDNVlV"><div data-ttid="ContentHearTleBlockWrapper" class="ContentHearTleBlockWrapper-cjmSKp jbzVNV"><div data-ttid="ContentHearRubric" class="ContentHearRubricBlock-LmpbT kkDiIx"><div data-ttid="ContentHearRubricDateBlock" class="ContentHearRubricDateBlock-kAQcZP fTFWxD"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX dZhWBL bric ContentHearRubricContaer-eTudtt iRsSlw"><a class="RubricLk-gRWSOU fgWnkQ bric__lk" href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">The New Yorker Interview</span></a></div></div></div><h1 data-ttid="ContentHearHed" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ ContentHearHed-NCyCC iUEiRd NbxED hpJvIc">Dick Cavett Tak a Few Qutns</h1></div><div class="ContentHearAccredatn-lfctVB etVsnJ ntent-hear__accredatn" data-ttid="ContentHearAccredatn"><div class="ContentHearDek-bIqFFZ Mtme">The legendary televisn host talks about his iendships wh Muhammad Ali and Groucho Marx, terviewg Kathare Hepburn and Bette Davis, and fdg a new dience on YouTube.</div><div class="ContentHearByle-kmPyCa gvUmxJ"><div class="ContentHearByleContent-dpPmNn DRFq"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl ContentHearByl-cZqgyJ bHLeKI"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH ivtvgj byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span><a class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM ByleLk-gEnFiw iUEiRd ggMZaT cXqSTL eErqIx byle__name-lk button" href="/ntributors/michael-schulman">Michael Schulman</a></span></span></p></div><time data-ttid="ContentHearPublishDate" dateTime="2022-12-25T06:00:00-05:00" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ ContentHearPublishDate-eIBicG iUEiRd kYZrFA iINaCX">December 25, 2022</time></div></div></div></div><div class="ContentHearLeadAsset-hGbumP fEknXh lead-asset ContentHearLeadAssetWrapper-hfXHEc Grck lead-asset--width-fullbleed" data-ttid="ContentHearLeadAsset"><figure class="ContentHearLeadAssetContent-kOfYSG dRGWbI"><div class="ContentHearLeadAssetContentMedia-bLEIpi jjhWdS lead-asset__ntent__photo"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW jvZaPI rponsive-asset ContentHearRponsiveAsset-bREgIb hONbnm"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jgsWEn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa ContentHearRponsiveAsset-bREgIb hONbnm rponsive-image"><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w, 960w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w, 960w, 1280w, 1600w, 1920w, 2240w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Dick Cavett" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></picture></div></div></span></div></figure></div><div class="ContentHearLeadContentFullWidth-cvJzX hHaBOT"><figure class="ContentHearLeadContentCaptnCred-hSIIqJ kQVfzg"><div class="CaptnWrapper-jSZdqE iTuhkZ ptn ContentHearLeadAssetCaptn-hPWmSN kuCzGS"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ CaptnText-bHjzlu iUEiRd hWyo iXWezO ptn__text">“I’m not analytil,” Cavett says. “When people lled me that awful name—the worst thg you n be lled televisn—an ‘tellectual,’ I wered.”</span><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ CaptnCred-ejegDm iUEiRd iicloT jbIJNS ptn__cred">Photographs by Gillian Lb for The New Yorker</span></div></figure></div></div></hear></div><div data-attribute-verso-pattern="article-body" class="ArticlePageContentBackGround-cNiFNN kbAoLA article-body__ntent"><div class="ActnBarWrapperContent-lasBkU cAHp"><div class="ActnBarWrapperComponent-cjwxLS bEeSLb"><div data-attr-viewport-monor="" class="ActnBarWrapper-dhxmQh kNjTbQ viewport-monor-anchor"><button id="bookmark" aria-label="Save this story" class="ActnBarButton-dyFOZU hQrwCF bookmark 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class="in-bookmark-fill" d="M20 23.9508L12.5 19.7312L5 23.9508V2.95081H14V3.93211H6V22.1845L12.5 18.5536L19 22.1845V8.83866H20V23.9508Z"></path><path class="in-bookmark-fill" d="M23 3H20V0H19V3H16V4H19V7H20V4H23V3Z"></path></svg></span><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ ActnBarButtonText-bYXYuh iUEiRd bkefvo gkccfO">Save this story</span></button></div></div></div><div class="LightboxWrapper-dxsWBV hhylRt"><div class="ArticlePageChunksContent-etcMtP imbgVA"><div data-ttid="ArticlePageChunks" class="ArticlePageChunks-fLyCVG lmuXQm"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bDFJoo"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="has-dropp has-dropp__lead-standard-headg">To revis “The Dick Cavett Show,” which ran late night on ABC om 1969 to 1975 (and var other rnatns before and after), is to enter a time psule—not jt bee of Cavett’s guts, who clud agg Hollywood doyenn (Bette Davis, Kathare Hepburn), rock legends their chaotic prime (Janis Jopl, Jimi Hendrix), and squabblg tellectuals (Gore Vidal, Norman Mailer), but bee Cavett’s ee-flowg yet rmed terviewg style is all but absent om ntemporary televisn. Late-night shows are now tightly scripted affairs, where celebri n plug a new movie, tell a rehearsed anecdote, and maybe get roped to a lip-synch battle. But Cavett gently prodd his subjects to revealg themselv. Though he was pegged as the “tellectual” late-night host, he risted the label. He was a creature of show bs: spontaneo, wty, and terted everythg.</p><p class="paywall">Cavett’s terviews wh the lik of Gee Harrison, Orson Well, Lily Toml, and Richard Pryor have racked up lns of views on <a href=">YouTube</a>, providg a unique wdow to a raw, eewheelg, ntent time. A Nebraska native who went to Yale and got his start wrg for the late-night hosts Jack Paar and Johnny Carson (before beg <a href=">Carson’s petn</a>), Cavett prid over an era spl between culture and unterculture, squar and hippi. He wasn’t que eher, but he was somehow at home wh both. Two of his most equent guts, each of whom beme a close iend, were Groucho Marx and Muhammad Ali—who reprented eher pole. On December 27th, Amerin Masters will air a documentary about the former, “<a href=">Groucho & Cavett</a>,” the filmmaker Robert S. Bar’s follow-up to “<a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Ali & Cavett: The Tale of the Tap</a>.”</p><p class="paywall">Cavett, now eighty-six, has spent <a href=">the panmic</a> his palatial 1912 Greek Revival mansn Connecticut. When I drove there recently, his send wife, Martha Rogers, led me to an ornate dg room: maroon walls wh whe crown moldg, oil patgs gild am, and a swan sculpture si a Corthian-lumned fireplace. In <a href=">a <em>New Yorker</em> Profile</a> of Cavett om 1972, L. E. Sissman wrote, “At close range, Cavett seems both siar to and different om his televisn image. On mera, he appears slight and boyish; his gtur are subtly gam, even elf, his poise is tlike. In person, all this is amplified to somethg larger than life and possibly even more magic.” Half a century later, this remaed te. Cavett sat at the end of a long dg table, a walker by his si, wearg a flannel shirt and headphon nnected to an amplifyg vice, to make up for hearg loss. His voice was faiar om old TV clips—nasal, refed, wh an dible “H” “what” and “while”—but sonoro enough to rry across several rooms. Sippg om a “Dick Cavett Show” mug, he uldn’t rist a pun, a clever asi, or an anecdote about a cultural tan. A few tim, he clutched his cht and gasped, sudnly awtck by his own star-studd life. Our nversatn has been eded for length and clary.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I was readg a <em>New Yorker</em> Profile of you om 1972.</strong></p><p class="paywall">You know, I haven’t seen that sce then. Would I like ? Tell me about .</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Well, there’s an tertg quote om Marshall Brickman scribg you: “He’s always unffled, lm, bland, and he jt sort of mov ahead at his own speed. I thk he’s not unaware of a kd of adjtment that he’s ma. He’s aware that he has to be a certa ame of md to whstand the prsure of dog this kd of a show. . . . Disengagement—that’s his particular style.”</strong></p><div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--article-mid-ntent" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--article-mid-ntent nsumer-marketg-un__slot---ntent"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><p class="paywall">My God, Brickman’s even smarter than I thought! I like that. What year was that, ’72? J. [<em>He ntemplat the time gone by.</em>] Lately, I keep seeg people who are well known who have aged dramatilly. I’d rather not name any nam, but at this dience last night [at a screeng of “The Fabelmans”], Martha spotted a uple of people, and I said, “No, that’s not who that is.” It <em>was</em>. Some of change more than others. Have you lost iends, relativ, to the curse?</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-1 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>No. A iend’s father died, though.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Two really good iends of me have died the last uple of months. One lived a very small town Nebraska, and about a year before he died he had wrten me a note. Roger Welsch—he ed to appear on “CBS Sunday Morng” overalls, dog a “Postrd om Nebraska.” Anyway, he wrote that the people around him, bee of an sect vasn, were “droppg <em>wh</em> fli.” [<em>Lghs loudly</em>.]</p><p class="paywall"><strong>This is partly me tryg to get some advice, bee I terview people for a livg, but do you have a guidg philosophy for terviewg?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I’m almost embarrassed that I don’t, bee I gus you’re supposed to. The first show I ever taped, I was nervo. My fear was: I was funny wh iends last night, but I don’t know if I’ll be able to be funny on the show. As luck would have , one of the guts was an ant expert, and I remember his wonrful name: Elmer Bursby. We go to mercial. They were gog to go back to me to troduce him, and I thought, Johnny [Carson], Jack [Paar], whoever, would ually have somethg amg an troductn. I wonr if I ever will. The red light went on, and I said, “No show is plete whout an ant expert.” This got jt the lgh I need.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>This was Day One?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Yeah, Day One. The show went pretty well. I was relieved that I got through nety mut of unscripted televisn. I went back to be plimented, I thought, but the guy om ABC said, “Nobody giv a sh what Gore Vidal or Muhammad Ali thk about Vietnam.” This sort of stunned me. They cid they would not air that as my first show. I objected. But they took one that I had taped a week later, when I was more broken . That show aired first, and the “ntroversy” show was five shows later. I saved a clippg om somebody who said, “Cavett has gotten a lot better”—and they were talkg about the first show!</p><p class="paywall"><strong>What was the harst part of learng the job?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I really n’t claim I ever found difficult. I jt seemed to fall to , looked forward to the next day’s show, but found that you have to fet the one you did the night before, bee the dience may not have seen and any referenc to wouldn’t work. Once, somebody said, “How’d your show go? Who was ?” And I said, “J! Oh, my God, she sat <em>right there</em>.” And took longer than you would gus for me to remember the somewhat obscure name Lucille Ball.</p><div class="Contaer-bkChBi byNLHx"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>And yet the name of the ant expert has never left you.</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-2 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">When I was workg for Johnny, when he was rather prsed, I said, “Is somethg botherg you?” And he said, “I went home last night, and my wife said, ‘Who were your four guts?’ ‘Well, we had—J!’ Couldn’t e up wh one!” So maybe that’s a val blsg when you have to start all over the next day. There’s a lot of crazy mental thgs this bs.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>The <em>New Yorker</em> Profile suggted that the monologu were the harst part for you, and you were much more at ease dog terviews. Do you thk that’s te?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I probably felt that at the time. I worried about them. And then they seemed to almost always go well. [This remd him of the story of how he got his first job wrg for the “Tonight” show, when he saw a newspaper headle that spired him to sneak on set wh sample jok.] “Jack Paar Worri More About His Monologue Than Anythg Else Life”—that’s what spurred me to take my wrg for him, as a py boy at <em>Time</em> makg sixty dollars a week, and tchg him on the way to the men’s room. Luck! I was rryg a CBS envelope, which I grabbed up at the last moment, wh the big logo. I thought that might tch his eye, and did. He said, “I’ll read them.”</p></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="9o97"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bDFJoo"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall"><strong>I love that story, bee ’s the kd of classic stumblg-to-show-bs tale you never hear anymore.</strong></p><p class="paywall">It might not have happened, and everythg would be different. Sat the dience, he me out his jacket, took out a fold paper. I thought, That’s ! But was not. It was somethg about mothers--law or somethg. So I began to sk down to the seat. But a woman he was speakg to the dience said, “Hey, how about this pirate ship?” It was the first of several hijackgs. And Jack said [a le I wrote], “It mt have been surprisg to the passengers to hear, ‘Attentn, please! This is your pirate speakg!’ ” This got a big lgh. And then he did another one. And then another one. So I ma a pot to be near him as he left the stud. Got the elevator. He said, “You want to wre? Send somethg.” I did, and I got the job. The odds agast a newspaper beg open on the py boy’s sk, and I saw <em>that</em> em. If not, you’d be stg here talkg to nobody!</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Wasn’t this around the time you met Groucho, while you were wrg for Jack Paar?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Oddly enough, I saw one day the paper, “All Hail. Gee S. Kfman Died.” I loved Kfman, and he was Groucho’s god. In the anteroom they had to put people at the funeral, I looked up and volts went through my body: there profile was Groucho [<em>whispers</em>] <em>fuckg</em> Marx.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>How did you break the ice wh him?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-3 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">I didn’t hear anythg anybody said for a while after regnizg him, but Moss Hart was charge, and he did about ten mut of logy. It featured his sayg, wh the Kfman sket behd him, “I thk I heard Gee’s voice jt now, sayg, ‘It needs cuttg!’ ” Groucho liked that. When the ftivi had end, everybody head for the exs, and I head for the one Groucho had head for, went out onto Eighty-first Street, and saw him partg wh I thk Art Carney on one si and Abe Burrows on the other. And I thought, I wish I were wh those guys! But they left. I got to Fifth Avenue and greeted him. He said, “You seem like a nice young man. I’d like you to have lunch wh me.” The world turned over my head, and we went to the Oak Room, had lunch. Groucho sulted the waers, to people’s amement. We probably talked for two hours. I had to pch myself the rt of that day.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>And then you end up wrg material for him, right?</strong></p><p class="paywall">When Jack left the “Tonight” show, they did a seri of gut hosts. Some jt awful, some wonrful. Then somebody said, “You know who’s g next week? [<em>Whispers</em>.] <em>Groucho Marx</em>.” So I wrote for Groucho for the “Tonight” show that night he was substute host. I remember, I sort of turned Groucho on my ear and typed, “But enough of this bridled hilary.” I uld hear Groucho sayg that. He got a huge lgh wh , and I felt affirmed.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>What did you learn about edy om him?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Greatt w, greatt man, never at a loss for a rponse. Twice when I was wh him, prits were enuntered, I thk both tim elevators. One said, “My mother’s a great fan of yours, Groucho.” And he said, “I didn’t know you fellas were allowed to have mothers.”</p><p class="paywall"><strong>When you were workg as a standup edian, after leavg “The Tonight Show,” you talk about some advice that Groucho gave you about your stage persona. Can you expla what was?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I had letters om Groucho, and he began one, “Saw you on ‘The Merv Griff Show’ last night and got that old feelg. I thk you’ve h on a mother lo”—which he spelled rrectly, of urse—“the ia of a”—I don’t know which word he ed, a bumpk? A hayseed?—“ the Ivy League.” The ia of a kid, unsophistited, om the Midwt, thst to the awome Ivy League. And he was right. I had done a uple of jok about that.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Let’s hear.</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-4 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">I said, “I didn’t know all the Ivy League practic of the time. In fact, my first appearance on the mp, I wore brown and whe sho.” Kd of a murmur. “Which is not practil, bee the whe one kept gettg dirty.” There were some like that. Some more refed than that. When I was new to the dience the night club, I’d tell people that I went to Yale, which mak some people hate you. But the fact that you e om Nebraska seems to get their sympathy back.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Were you a good standup? Was that what you wanted to do wh your reer?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I never set out to be a standup edian, but I had a lot of experience before I left Nebraska as a magician. I ma twenty dollars for my hour of magic, but I did enough that I was able to loan my parents eight hundred dollars toward buyg a new r. I realized that I uld ad-lib. My hero then was Bob Hope. Do you know about his g to Lln when I was high school? A iend of me and I went, stg as close as we uld get. “And now the star of our show, Bob Hope!” He walked out on the stage. [<em>Clutch cht, shudrg</em>.] I jt felt now—a horripilatn or somethg. Afterward, I went around to the stage door at this Hlerian-size lism. Bob Hope me down the steps, and I said, “Fe show, Bob!” And he said, “Thanks, son.” I told people I had been chattg wh Bob Hope at school the next day.</p></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="f1x6x9"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bDFJoo"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall"><strong>When you started your show, you had been steeped the great edians—Bob Hope, Groucho Marx, Jack Paar—but you were fairly young. How did you thk about the persona you wanted to create on your own show? Were you mollg after those old-timers?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I jt thought, How do I do this? Well, I did my magic act and I was that funny person, and I gus that’s what I do here. And that seemed to work. I’m not analytil. When people lled me that awful name—the worst thg you n be lled televisn—an “tellectual,” I wered. There’s a “wered”/”ward” pun, isn’t there? I felt a ltle sorry for people who thought I was an tellectual. It meant they maybe hadn’t ever really seen one.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>How nscly was your show an alternative to Carson? Did you have to give the dience somethg that they weren’t gettg om “The Tonight Show”?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Not any way that I nscly thought of. The prs began to say, “This guy’s a great answer to Carson.” Somebody said, “When Dick would have”—some brilliantly tellectual gut—“on, Johnny would have Charo.” I hated that, bee I liked Johnny, and he was enuragg to me the begng. He was smarter than <em>he</em> thought. I always felt kd of sorry for him that way, bee he really was. But he didn’t thk so. Maybe that’s his mother. Once, he got a big award, and he proudly told his mother. She said, “Well, I gus they know what they’re dog.”</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Jeez. You had wrten for Carson before gettg your own show and got along wh him very well. You’re both om Nebraska, you both were magicians. Were you able to mata a iendship once you beme his petor?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-5 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">Yeah. I almost wish I had phed more. I feel awful guilty, bee one day I was the NBC parkg lot Hollywood, and I was gettg my rental r, and Johnny had jt gotten—what was the r where the sis went up?</p><p class="paywall"><strong>A DeLorean?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Yeah. And he yelled at me om across the way, “Come on, Richard!” I said, “That’s all right, I’ve got my r.” As if he thought I need a ri! He wanted to be iendly, and I blew . But I was grateful that, sometime after, we had a dner together California. I was tapg out there, and somebody said, “Johnny Carson jt lled.” And I said, “Fd out who <em>really</em> was.” He ved me to meet him at a rtrant, and I said, “God, I don’t know how I n do . I’ve got my crappy daytime cloth on—I have muddy whe tennis sho.” He said, “It’s all right, Richard.” I got stuck traffic tryg to meet him. When I got there, I didn’t see him, and I thought, Who uld blame him? Then I saw him at the bar. He was havg a 7 UP, and, as I approached him his bpoke su, he had muddy whe tennis sho on. It was so touchg. He was so proud of his joke! We talked about all sorts of thgs, cludg early erotic sir and nostalgic Nebraska stuff. It really cemented the iendship.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Carson famoly stopped talkg to Joan Rivers once she beme a petor of his. Why do you thk that that didn’t happen wh you?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I gus bee we did have this background, and I had worked for him. Though I remember one day I had a chill, when I had taken my stuff down to his sk as ual. I got a ll later, the office, and he said, “Richard, I thk you’re pable of a ltle better monologue than this.” [<em>Shudrs</em>.] And I thought, J, am I gog to be fired? He was right—I <em>had</em> sloughed off that day. Wrote some “feebs,” as my great iend David Lloyd said.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>People often attribute Carson’s stayg power to his abily to float above the culture wars and ntentns of that time perd, while you really <a href=">barrelled right to </a> on your show.</strong></p><p class="paywall">I uldn’t <em>not</em>. And then I got overpraised for , I felt. There was a lumn somewhere: “Dumb up, Dick.” Cavett, you’re not playg to the Yale Alumni Associat! Dumb up, Dick! I hated beg a stick wh which they beat Johnny—or Merv. I like them. It all seemed like an improbable dream, anyway.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>That was such a divid time the culture, and you had both Goln Age stars on, like Bette Davis and Kathare Hepburn, and emissari om the unterculture, like Jimi Hendrix and Janis Jopl. And you seemed equally nversant wh both of those groups.</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-6 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">I’m not sure why that is, but I’m grateful for . <a href=">Janis</a>, I thk vtigatn would show, started a lot more rock people g on. So I got to have <a href=">Jimi Hendrix</a> and say to him, “Do you get up every day and try to do some work on your reer?” And he said, “I try to <em>get up</em> every day.” It’s funny how I remember only that.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>How did you place yourself that divi? You were young, but you were clean-cut. You weren’t of the unterculture, but you weren’t of neteen-thirti Hollywood, eher.</strong></p><p class="paywall">I loved that the rock acts would e on and get along wh me, and I wh them. I fet which one—[the episo] had multiple people , and, when they left, the ctodian at the stud buildg said, “Come here.” He showed me their drsg room, and had pot butts, regular cigarette butts, an empty bottle of Jack Daniel’s, and a pair of men’s jockey unrwear.</p></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="mi1u3p"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bDFJoo"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall"><strong>Oh, my goodns. There’s a moment when you were terviewg <a href=">Gee Harrison</a> where you ask him if he thks about the rponsibily of talkg about dgs, when uld lead to imprsnable young people wantg to do them. The dience boos you, and you turn to them and say, “Shut up.” You were playg the role of the square, sentially.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Yeah, my dience didn’t want that! I really began televisn — the words of the oft-quoted, probably fictnal Che proverb—“tertg tim.” Once I started that show, assassatns began, one after the other. It was pretty hard to go out and do a edy monologue. You <em>had</em> to talk about . But, yeah, I remember the dience sayg, “C’mon, Dick! Don’t sell out!”</p><p class="paywall"><strong>It’s tertg that your two most equent guts, Groucho Marx and Muhammad Ali, are the two sis of that divi.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Together aga, Marx and Ali! I liked them both, and took me a while to realize, pecially wh Ali, that we were beg iends. We would get together <em>not</em> on the show—once Montk, where he stayed overnight my hoe. My late wife lled. I had put him the ma bedroom. He picked up the phone. “Darlg,” she said. And he said, “This a’t darlg. It’s the only three-time heavyweight champn of the world, and I’m sleepg your bed and watchg your TV!” She was hip enough to say, “Well, Mr. Ali, I’ll have a plaque put on that bed.” Which, I have jokgly said, she never offered to do about me.</p><p class="paywall">Wh Groucho, there’s a thg I n always look at and feel better: a letter om his dghter Miriam, which end, “My father thought the world of you.” [<em>Shudrs aga</em>.] God, I mt be gettg sentimental. But that’s one of the treasur that my reer brought me, knowg Groucho. He ved me to the hoe once, and I didn’t go. I probably would have spent a week wh him there. I don’t know why I didn’t. Do you ever thk of thgs you didn’t do? What’s the cure for that?</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-7 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>There is none, I don’t thk. You only live once.</strong></p><p class="paywall">It’s good if you n have no regrets.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Is there anyone you regret not gettg on the show?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Oh, yeah. Mostly three nam: Mike Nichols, Cary Grant, and Frank Satra. At one pot I asked if Nichols uld e on, and he said, “I n’t for the next few weeks. I’m on my way to England for a while, but maybe when I e back I’ll be the mood to share and share.” Talked to Cary Grant on the phone, and he uttered the le, “I’m aaid they’ll fd out how dumb I am.”</p><p class="paywall"><strong>What happened wh Satra?</strong></p><p class="paywall">We had gotten along at events the biz. I lled, thkg, I’m close to gettg him, and the voice on the other end said, “<em>Yeah?</em>” I thought, Oh, boy, he’s a bad mood. But was some pug-nosed bodyguard or somethg. I told him what I wanted. He said, “I don’t know your show, but Frank don’t do sh like that.” And I said, “O.K., thank you, Ma’am.” I’m not sure what that ill-aimed sult meant. We would have had a good time. I mean Satra, not that guy.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Was different to terview the Old Hollywood greats vers the unterculture people? For stance, Bette Davis had a whole persona that she’d practiced for s. Is that different om havg Jimi Hendrix on? Did you have a different approach?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I mt have, but I’m not very thoughtful, the sense that I don’t analyze thgs people maybe thk I do, or don’t have a technique when people thk I mt have. But I kd of surprised myself at how fortable I was wh the rock people.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-8 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>I particularly love the <a href=">Bette Davis terview</a>—she did great talk-show appearanc the last years of her life. What was like to s across om her?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I would remember <em>that</em> when I went home that night, unlike poor Lucille Ball. It was a dream. It was a breeze, too. It was probably her send time on that I did somethg people were startled by. She said, “You’re a gentleman, Richard, and I feel fortable wh you.” Which led to [my sayg], “How’d you lose your virgy, Bette?” I sred myself a ltle b, but I knew I’d get away wh somehow, and of urse she said, “I’ll tell you!” and went on, “I waed until I married.” Applse, applse, applse. “And damn near <em>killed</em> me to wa.” She was perfect.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>That generatn of stars uld seem very adrift the new world of seventi unterculture.</strong></p><p class="paywall">They were hipper, often, than I thought they might be. That was a relief. But, my God, the list of people whose nam I uld mentn today to a room full of people whose ag would prevent them om knowg any of those nam— startl me. I mentned Groucho to someone I took to be only twenty years younger than I am, and he said, “I know that name.” And I said, “Oh, good for you.”</p><p class="paywall"><strong>There’s a moment the documentary where Groucho is on your show and he talks about “Hair,” and how he heard there are five guys who are naked —which is probably an unrunt. It’s a great moment of old culture crashg agast the sixti.</strong></p></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="cptys"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bDFJoo"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">Was that the one where he said, “I took off my cloth, looked at myself the mirror, and saved eight dollars”? He had the wrong price for tickets at that time, but didn’t matter. You uldn’t not lgh at a le livered wh the Groucho livery.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Speakg of the Old Hollywood stars that you had on, I’m pretty obssed wh the <a href=">first five mut of your time wh Kathare Hepburn</a>, when she rearranged your entire stud.</strong></p><p class="paywall">No gut had ever said, “I’ll e around before the show and see where I’ll s and what the lightg is.” But she did that, ostensibly, then said, “Why don’t we jt do [the terview] now?” Which is why I’m rolled-up sleev and khakis, stead of my ual, elegant stume.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-9 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>When she was plag about the hions of the g and wantg to nail down the table so she uld put her feet up, I n’t image what you were thkg.</strong></p><p class="paywall">I n’t, eher! It didn’t sre me. I thought was funny, but I had no ia that that day was gog to nta tapg a show wh her. There was a kd of woon fence on the set, and she said, “Do we need that?” The stagehand went, “Well, we’d have to unscrew—” “Don’t tell me what’s wrong, jt fix !”</p><p class="paywall"><strong>It’s like she’s the Queen. Who do that? It would be like me g to your dg room here and sayg, “The chairs have got to go.”</strong></p><p class="paywall">“That lamp is awful!” I know. She says somethg the actual show—maybe I crossed my leg and my whe tennis shoe was movg—like, “You’re gog to keep dog that while I’m talkg?” I talked to her [after the terview aired], and she said, “I’ve got a problem. You’ve ma me a goddam sat! Wherever I go, people open their wdows and yell down at me about that show.”</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Of the rock stars on your show, who was the most unpredictable?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Maybe David Bowie, bee I never knew what he was gog to do or say next. I didn’t feel I was on the same wavelength as him. And I thk he was a b sniffly. I found him very weird, and I didn’t know que what to do. That was probably the harst of the rock people, but looked O.K. to the dience, I gus.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>People expect that om Bowie. They don’t want him to be que human.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Fortunately, yeah. They don’t expect om Lter Maddox, [the segregatnist Geia ernor who <a href=">stormed off the show</a>]. God, I saw somethg the other day, a whole list of tribut to me—I had a birthday—and one of them was, “You have to take your hat off to Dick Cavett. He gave the untry the immortal le [to <a href=">Norman Mailer</a>], ‘Why don’t you fold five ways and put where the moon don’t she?’ ” That was the first time that’s ever been quoted rrectly. It’s always the sun that’s shg, which s . Or “where there isn’t a lot of sunshe.” Jt a study miswordg. In fact, I saw one of Groucho’s great quot a list onle, and jured one of the most famo, “I wouldn’t want to belong to any club that would have me as a member.” It’s quoted this alleged list of quot om Groucho, “I wouldn’t want to belong to any club that has such low standards that they would…”</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-10 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>No, no, no! Well, all the bt quot are misquoted.</strong></p><p class="paywall">People who misquote Groucho should— [<em>Ps</em>.]</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Should what?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Take a long walk on a short pier! I don’t know exactly what hearg he was at the McCarthy days, but he end by sayg, “Those are my prcipl, and if you don’t like ’em . . . well, I have others.”</p></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa RaHuL body ArticlePageBodyGridContaer-jrMoA-d xjuw body__grid-ntaer" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="GenericCalloutWrapper-tojWn pLUZ llout--has-top-borr" data-ttid="GenericCallout"><figure class="AssetEmbedWrapper-eVDQiB byBkf asset-embed"><div class="AssetEmbedAssetContaer-eJxoAx dBHGoQ asset-embed__asset-ntaer"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset AssetEmbedRponsiveAsset-cXBNxi eCxVQK asset-embed__rponsive-asset"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO KhjZz AssetEmbedRponsiveAsset-cXBNxi eCxVQK asset-embed__rponsive-asset rponsive-image rponsive-image--expandable"><noscript><img alt="Dick Cavett and his wife Martha Rogers" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src=" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w, 960w, 1280w, 1600w" siz="100vw"/></noscript></picture></span></div><div class="CaptnWrapper-jSZdqE iTuhkZ ptn AssetEmbedCaptn-fNQBPI fmQnYP asset-embed__ptn"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ CaptnText-bHjzlu iUEiRd hWyo iXWezO ptn__text">Cavett and his wife, Martha Rogers.</span></div></figure></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bDFJoo"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall"><strong>Your show now airs rens on the Des channel, and your vios have lns of views on YouTube. How did that all happen?</strong></p><p class="paywall">At first, I didn’t know I was on <a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Des</a>. Out here, if you punch [channel] 940, there I am at ne o’clock. Last night, at the movie première, I ran to Michelle Williams, and she said, “I’ve ma my children watch your show, bee I had the opportuny at an early age.” That was a pliment I’ve never had before.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Do you remember how you found out that you were big on the Inter? Did young people start g up to you?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Y, or a fan letter would somehow get to me and say, “I loved you the other night wh Bob Hope on Des,” and others would say “on YouTube.” And I thought, They mt be mistaken. I don’t have any reason to thk I’m on YouTube. And there I was.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-11 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>To me, the show is like somethg om another dimensn, bee nobody on TV is dog that right now—those kds of spontaneo nversatns. Do you see anythg out the culture that is dog what you were dog back then?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Not exactly. I figure anybody who do a talk show would do approximately that. Partly bee I never had a philosophy of how to do a talk show, and certaly not “I will try to be tellectual, bee nobody’s dog that.”</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Well, the talk-show hosts now are certaly cursed wh livg tertg tim. They have to figure out what you did, which is how to al wh a world that’s gone crazy and a untry that’s very polarized.</strong></p></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="m5ecs8"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bDFJoo"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">I’d like to know if any of them feel that tensely. Colbert to me do such wonrful [work]. We exchange amg e-mails and stuff. He is so bright, so smart. His monologue I hate to miss.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Sce I have to wrap up soon, do you have any strategi for endg an terview well?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Often I would do very badly. I would sh , hadn’t saved enough time. I almost lled a gut by the wrong name but ught , thank God, or whatever gods may be. What’s that om? “I thank whatever gods may be.” It’s a poem that’s often remend as good relig thkg. “I thank whatever gods may be for my domable soul”? Hmm.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Should I Google ? “Invict,” by William Ernt Henley.</strong></p><p class="paywall">“Invict”! Of urse.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-12 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>“I thank whatever gods may be / For my unnquerable soul.”</strong></p><p class="paywall">“Unnquerable”! Yeah. What’s the first le?</p><p class="paywall"><strong>“Out of the night that vers me, / Black as the p om pole to pole, / I thank whatever gods may be / For my unnquerable soul.”</strong></p><p class="paywall">It’s an <em>un</em>-God poem, but ’s ed as one. Funny about that. For some reason, I remembered the other day my great, great philosophy profsor Pl Weiss. God, he was brilliant. He tght Socratilly: “Come on, ask me anythg.” He was <a href=">on my show wh Jam Baldw</a>. It was as close to knowg Socrat as you’re gog to get.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>And you say your show wasn’t tellectual!</strong></p><p class="paywall">Smartass would sometim try to surprise him or rner him, and one time I said, changg the subject ly, “Mr. Weiss, n you name any act that would be pletely immoral?” And Weiss thought for a send or two and said, “You n’t e a man to stuff a hole.” I’ll never fet .</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Oh, my gosh. That may be our endg.</strong></p><p class="paywall">It’s a good one! ♦</p></div></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 PaywallInleBarrierWhWrapperGrid-fyrGfS jyGBoi"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="body body__le-barrier article__body article__body--grid-margs"><div class="ntaer ntaer--body"><div class="ntaer--body-ner"><asi class="PaywallInleBarrierWrapper-iBnuqk lfXXa-D" data-ttid="PaywallInleBarrierWrapper"><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--paywall-le-barrier" role="prentatn" aria-live="pole" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--paywall-le-barrier"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></asi></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ContentWrapperGrid-fvkmBv jfHKjr"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="body body__ntaer"><div class="ntaer ntaer--body"><div class="ntaer--body-ner"></div></div></div></div></div></div></article><div class="ContentFooterWrapper-jVNdRG bGJnrW ArticlePageContentFooterGrid-ccsXYy fzwwkW article-body__footer"><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="LkStackWrapper-NFLYw kgtXXB lkstack" data-ttid="LkStack"><div class="SectnTleRoot-dBGvdq kjAxEG LkStackHear-lKjbE hejl lk-stack--headg" data-ttid="SectnTle"><h2 class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SectnTleHed-dKqZet dxqEAa dqtvfu jttyjJ">More New Yorker Interviews</h2></div><div class="LkStackContent-jyKicS gPhyME"><ul class="LkStackList-gGcjdZ dnMwpz"><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Dean Baquet on <a href="/news/the-new-yorker-terview/an-baquet-never-wanted-to-be-an-edor" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">his tenure as the Tim’ executive edor</a>, and the state of journalism.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Alexandria Os-Cortez on <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/is-alexandria-os-rtez-an-sir-now" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">the “sh show” Congrs</a>—and her visn for how to change .</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>M J Lee on her arrival Ameri and <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/what-m-j-lee-wants--to-see" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">why she reads the Bible before wrg</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>David Hockney shows off <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/a-tour-of-david-hockneys-newt-patg-seri" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">a new seri of patgs</a> and discs the work he has left to do.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Stevie Nicks talks about style, spirs, and <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/stevie-nicks-tavi-gevson-nversatn" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">wrg one of her bt songs</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Patricia Lockwood discs her “<a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/patricia-lockwood-has-always-sound-this-way" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">atroc” early wrg</a> and how gettg <em class="small">COVID</em> rewired her bra.</p></div></li></ul><div class="LkStackFooter-KfRyO ebnmps lk-stack--footer"><div><p><a href=">Sign up for our daily newsletter</a> to receive the bt stori om <em>The New Yorker</em>.</p><p>Support award-wng journalism and get a ee tote bag. <a href=">Subscribe today</a>.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="ContributorsWrapper-eNpWFu GWFsc ntributors" data-ttid="Contributors"><div class="ContributorBWrapper-bnVHbt gMon"><div class="ContributorBAvatar-bIGTqf eMWbvj"><a href="/ntributors/michael-schulman"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW jvZaPI rponsive-asset"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa rponsive-image"><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></picture></span></a></div><div class="ContributorBContent-ubQdr jZTSSi"><div class="ContributorBHear-ledood XOIEx"></div><div class="ContributorBB-fBolsO giFhKz"><a href="/ntributors/michael-schulman">Michael Schulman</a>, a staff wrer, has ntributed to The New Yorker sce 2006. His most recent book is “<a href=">Osr Wars: A History of Hollywood Gold, Sweat, and Tears</a>.”</div><div class="ContributorBFooter-brqDlv ezUmSv"></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div data-ttid="TagCloudWrapper" class="TagCloudWrapper-gGgndx ctyZyK ContentFooterTagCloud-krQmRG ZLGh"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudSectnHear-cOforY iUEiRd bPyAoD kQQRmu">More:</span><a href="/tag/terview" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">Interview</span></a><a href="/tag/dick-vett" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">Dick Cavett</span></a><a href="/tag/televisn" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">Televisn</span></a><a href="/tag/edy" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">Comedy</span></a><a href="/tag/televisn-talk-shows" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">Televisn talk shows</span></a></div></div></div></div><div data-ttid="ContentFooterBottom" class="ContentFooterBottom-jwWZfC kcbyiW"><div class="ContentFooterNewsletterContentWrapper-bmjtna kixtae"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div data-ttid="NewsletterSubscribeFormWrapper" class="NewsletterSubscribeFormWrapper-fCqqkN jKSBhE newsletter-subscribe-form ContentFooterNewsletterForm-hKeYwa liPqcf"><div data-ttid="NewsletterSubscribeFormHedDekWrapper" class="NewsletterSubscribeFormHedDekWrapper-fpMElW eglIBL"><h3 class="NewsletterSubscribeFormDangeroHed-kRwWjt kbxOa-D newsletter-subscribe-form__hed ContentFooterNewsletterForm-hKeYwa liPqcf">Gogs On</h3><div class="NewsletterSubscribeFormDek-kXonvc cKOhTM newsletter-subscribe-form__k">What we’re watchg, listeng to, and dog this week, onle, N.Y.C., and beyond. 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This se is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google<a href=" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"> Privacy Policy</a> and<a href=" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"> Terms of Service</a> apply.</p></span></div></form></div></div></div></div></div><div class="ntent-bottom-anchor"></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--article-footer" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--article-footer"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div><div data-attr-viewport-monor="" class="recirc-list-wrapper viewport-monor-anchor"><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan ContentFooterRelated-kEBiFe kVUuwq"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 SummaryCollectnGridComponent-ktyEog bdTTVU summary-llectn-grid RecircListDefltOverlaySummaryCollectnGrid-AHJhY bEaXiL recirc-list__ems summary-llectn-grid--four-lumns summary-llectn-grid--DenseDktopStack"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="SummaryCollectnGridContent-eVUpRm jTGbEO"><div class="SectnTleRoot-dBGvdq kjAxEG SummaryCollectnGridSectnTle-fCmYwG izjbVn" data-ttid="SectnTle"><hear class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SectnTleHed-dKqZet dxqEAa dqtvfu jttyjJ">Read More</hear></div><div class="SummaryCollectnGridItems-DZShR eOCboB hi-read-more-ad" data-ttid="SummaryCollectnGridItems"><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff hlYhBH summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm eamwqR" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Novelist Whose Inventns Went Too Far" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl ldWYvC summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Life and Letters</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">The Novelist Whose Inventns Went Too Far</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Novelist Whose Inventns Went Too Far" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">After the Ao-Cuban wrer H. G. Carrillo died, his hband learned that almost everythg the wrer had shared about his life was ma up—cludg his Cuban inty.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>D. T. Max</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff hlYhBH summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm eamwqR" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="On Killg Charl Dickens" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl ldWYvC summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Life and Letters</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">On Killg Charl Dickens</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="On Killg Charl Dickens" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">I did everythg I uld to avoid wrg my historil novel. When I fally started “The Frd,” one prciple was clear: no Dickens.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Zadie Smh</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff hlYhBH summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm eamwqR" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="How Larry Gagosian Rhaped the Art World" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl ldWYvC summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Profil</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">How Larry Gagosian Rhaped the Art World</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="How Larry Gagosian Rhaped the Art World" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">The aler has been so succsful sellg art to masters of the universe that he has bee one of them.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Patrick Radn Keefe</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff hlYhBH summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm eamwqR" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Tan Submersible Was “an Accint Wag to Happen”" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl ldWYvC summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">A Reporter at Large</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">The Tan Submersible Was “an Accint Wag to Happen”</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Tan Submersible Was “an Accint Wag to Happen”" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">Interviews and e-mails wh expedn lears and employe reveal how OceanGate ignored sperate warngs om si and outsi the pany. “It’s a lemon,” one wrote.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div 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