Story Saved</tle><path class="in-bookmark-fill in-bookmark--activated-outle" d="M20 24L12.5 19.7804L5 24V3H20V24ZM12.5 18.6028L19 22.2336V3.98131H6V22.2336L12.5 18.6028Z" fill="black"></path><path class="in-bookmark-fill in-bookmark--activated-checkmark" d="M11.5541 13.7033L9 11.2033L9.66216 10.5552L11.5541 12.407L15.3378 8.70331L16 9.35146L11.5541 13.7033Z" fill="black"></path></svg></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ AlertMsage-jgAjgo bVCFRm ifgabc loYW alert-msage"><p>To revis this article, select My Acunt, then<!-- --> <a href="/acunt/saved">View saved stori</a></p></div><button class="BaseButton-bLlsy ButtonWrapper-xCepQ bqVKKv dZjwET button button--utily close-alert-button" data-event-click="{"element":"Button"}" data-ttid="Button" role="button" type="button"><span class="ButtonLabel-cjAuJN bBWXSg button__label">Close Alert</span><div class="ButtonInWrapper-gFdzAL bPDyTT button__in-ntaer"><svg class="ButtonIn-YqaGo iwlhuX button-in in in-close" focable="false" viewBox="0 0 32 32" width="32" height="32" xmlns="><path d="M16 14.586l6.364-6.364 1.414 1.414L17.414 16l6.364 6.364-1.414 1.414L16 17.414l-6.364 6.364-1.414-1.414L14.586 16 8.222 9.636l1.414-1.414z" fill-le="nonzero"></path></svg></div></button></div><a href="/th/iate?redirectURL=%2Fnews%2Fq-and-a%2Fsasha-issenberg-on-the-fight-for-marriage-equaly&source=VERSO_NAVIGATION" rel="nofollow" data-ttid="signIn" class="StandardNavigatnAcuntLabel-pyqL jVPHWr">Sign In</a></div><div class="StackedNavigatnConsumerMarketgUnWrapper-epSkjf eqsNVO"><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--nav-cta" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--nav-cta"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--nav-rollover" role="prentatn"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--nav-rollover"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--nav-dialog" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--nav-dialog"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><a href="/search" class="BaseButton-bLlsy ButtonWrapper-xCepQ bqVKKv gVJotL button button--utily StackedNavigatnSearch-lFFwq ckLQNp" data-event-click="{"element":"Button","outgogURL":"/search"}" data-ttid="Button" type=""><span class="ButtonLabel-cjAuJN bBWXSg button__label">Search</span><div class="ButtonInWrapper-gFdzAL bPDyTT button__in-ntaer"><svg class="ButtonIn-YqaGo iwlhuX button-in in in-search" focable="false" viewBox="0 0 32 32" width="32" height="32" xmlns=" data-ttid="inSearch"><tle>Search</tle><path d="M14.5 10a4.5 4.5 0 1 0 0 9 4.5 4.5 0 0 0 0-9zm5.249 8.335l4.458 4.458-1.414 1.414-4.458-4.458a6.5 6.5 0 1 1 1.414-1.414z" fill-le="nonzero"></path></svg></div></a></div></div><div data-ttid="StackedNavigatnSectnPrimaryLks" class="StackedNavigatnSectnPrimaryLks-foRfJu jOZVNi"><nav aria-label="Primary" class="NavigatnWrapper-bFftAs fKSZRK StackedNavigatnNavigatnPrimaryLk-hGPvKW junrbk" data-ttid="navigatn"><ul class="NavigatnListWrapper-gWXLVS dnLcIy navigatn__list" data-ttid="navigatn__list"><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/news" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">News</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/culture" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Books & Culture</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/fictn-and-poetry" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Fictn & Poetry</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/humor" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Humor & Cartoons</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/magaze" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Magaze</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/crossword-puzzl-and-gam" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Puzzl & Gam</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href=" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Vio</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/podsts" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Podsts</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/gogs-on" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Gogs On</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href=" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Ftival</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="external-lk NavigatnExternalLk-hktPkS jLQUSr navigatn__lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Shop</a></li></ul></nav><span class="NavigatnDivir-fEDnwq ixXXMs navigatn__divir"></span></div><div class="StackedNavigatnBottom-dpkX bIeNbx"><div class="StackedNavigatnDrawer-jtJcEj edsvEF"><button class="BaseButton-bLlsy ButtonWrapper-xCepQ bqVKKv dZjwET button button--utily StackedNavigatnDrawerToggle-cycUFN eZCXFW" data-event-click="{"element":"Button"}" data-ttid="Button" role="button" type="button"><span class="ButtonLabel-cjAuJN bBWXSg button__label">Open Navigatn Menu</span><div class="ButtonInWrapper-gFdzAL bPDyTT button__in-ntaer"><svg class="ButtonIn-YqaGo iwlhuX button-in in in-menu" focable="false" viewBox="0 0 32 32" width="32" height="32" xmlns="><tle>Menu</tle><path d="M8 10h16v2H8v-2zm0 5h16v2H8v-2zm0 5h16v2H8v-2z" fill-le="evenodd"></path></svg></div></button><div class="AlertWrapper-gvFATk ePjLtR" data-ttid="BookmarkAlertMobile" role="tooltip"><div aria-hidn="te" role="prentatn" class="AlertArrow-daOgye dJBuXq alert-arrow"></div><div aria-hidn="te" role="prentatn" class="AlertInWrapper-iHNVmf iGkvlr"><svg class="in in-bookmark in-bookmark--activated" width="24" height="24" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" xmlns="><tle>Story Saved</tle><path class="in-bookmark-fill in-bookmark--activated-outle" d="M20 24L12.5 19.7804L5 24V3H20V24ZM12.5 18.6028L19 22.2336V3.98131H6V22.2336L12.5 18.6028Z" fill="black"></path><path class="in-bookmark-fill in-bookmark--activated-checkmark" d="M11.5541 13.7033L9 11.2033L9.66216 10.5552L11.5541 12.407L15.3378 8.70331L16 9.35146L11.5541 13.7033Z" fill="black"></path></svg></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ AlertMsage-jgAjgo bVCFRm ifgabc loYW alert-msage"><p>To revis this article, vis My Profile, then<!-- --> <a href="/acunt/saved">View saved stori</a></p></div><button class="BaseButton-bLlsy ButtonWrapper-xCepQ bqVKKv dZjwET button button--utily close-alert-button" data-event-click="{"element":"Button"}" data-ttid="Button" role="button" type="button"><span class="ButtonLabel-cjAuJN bBWXSg button__label">Close Alert</span><div class="ButtonInWrapper-gFdzAL bPDyTT button__in-ntaer"><svg class="ButtonIn-YqaGo iwlhuX button-in in in-close" focable="false" viewBox="0 0 32 32" width="32" height="32" xmlns="><path d="M16 14.586l6.364-6.364 1.414 1.414L17.414 16l6.364 6.364-1.414 1.414L16 17.414l-6.364 6.364-1.414-1.414L14.586 16 8.222 9.636l1.414-1.414z" fill-le="nonzero"></path></svg></div></button></div></div><div class="StackedNavigatnSectnLogo-gMsxSu kUeORh"><a href="/" class="StackedNavigatnLogoLk-byNqXP dmvHfj"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa rponsive-image"><img alt="The New Yorker" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="/verso/static/the-new-yorker/assets/" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/></picture></a></div><div class="StackedNavigatnSectnMobileOptn-iaaAJG bHHPuB"><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--mob-nav-cta" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--mob-nav-cta"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div></div></div></hear><div class="modal-ntaer"></div></div><div class="PersistentBottomWrapper-eddooY bIieWF persistent-bottom" data-journey-hook="persistent-bottom"><asi class="PaywallBarWrapper-hbEokK kqItQt paywall-bar"><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut paywall-bar__nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--paywall-bar-ll-to-actn" role="prentatn" aria-live="pole" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--paywall-bar-ll-to-actn"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></asi></div><div class="SpaceHolr-oayp fXtswJ ad-height-hold"></div><div class="StickyHeroAdWrapper-eNLJUc gStsdY ad-stickyhero ad-stickyhero--standard ad-stickyhero-enable-mobile should-hold-space"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--hero"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--hero" data-no-id="f1wyu"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-hero" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-hero"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="SpaceHolr-oayp fXtswJ ad-height-hold"></div><ma id="ma-ntent" tabx="-1" class="BasePageMaContent-kFvAuh ewPCZH page__ma-ntent"><article class="article ma-ntent" lang="en-US"><div class="ArticlePageLeBackground-EufvU tFsh"><hear class="ContentHearWrapper-clujbs bhNIJY ntent-hear article__ntent-hear"><div data-ttid="ContentHearContaer" class="ContentHearContaer-cGKRbE knDxNq"><div class="ContentHearHedAccredatnWrapper-GFiQf cDNVlV"><div data-ttid="ContentHearTleBlockWrapper" class="ContentHearTleBlockWrapper-cjmSKp jbzVNV"><div data-ttid="ContentHearRubric" class="ContentHearRubricBlock-LmpbT kkDiIx"><div data-ttid="ContentHearRubricDateBlock" class="ContentHearRubricDateBlock-kAQcZP fTFWxD"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX dZhWBL bric ContentHearRubricContaer-eTudtt iRsSlw"><a class="RubricLk-gRWSOU fgWnkQ bric__lk" href="/news/q-and-a"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Q. & A.</span></a></div></div></div><h1 data-ttid="ContentHearHed" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ ContentHearHed-NCyCC iUEiRd NbxED hpJvIc">Why the Marriage-Equaly Movement Succeed</h1></div><div class="ContentHearAccredatn-lfctVB enhwXT ntent-hear__accredatn" data-ttid="ContentHearAccredatn"><div class="ContentHearDek-bIqFFZ Mtme">The thor of “The Engagement” discs the activists, policians, and judicial figur who found themselv at the foreont of the battle over same-sex marriage.</div><div class="ContentHearByle-kmPyCa gvUmxJ"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW jvZaPI rponsive-asset ContentHearContributorImage-cvjZXn jKACOU"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa ContentHearContributorImage-cvjZXn jKACOU rponsive-image"><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w" siz="66px"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w" siz="66px"/><img alt="" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></picture></span><div class="ContentHearByleContent-dpPmNn DRFq"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl ContentHearByl-cZqgyJ bqbBYQ"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH ivtvgj byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span><a class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM ByleLk-gEnFiw iUEiRd ggMZaT cXqSTL eErqIx byle__name-lk button" href="/ntributors/isaac-choter">Isaac Choter</a></span></span></p></div><time data-ttid="ContentHearPublishDate" dateTime="2021-06-10T16:17:30-04:00" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ ContentHearPublishDate-eIBicG iUEiRd kYZrFA kEBrdf">June 10, 2021</time></div></div></div></div><div class="LightboxWrapper-dxsWBV hhylRt"><div class="ContentHearLeadAsset-hGbumP iWPCcH lead-asset ContentHearLeadAssetWrapper-hfXHEc fTrSlG lead-asset--width-smallle" data-ttid="ContentHearLeadAsset"><figure class="ContentHearLeadAssetContent-kOfYSG dRGWbI"><div class="ContentHearLeadAssetContentMedia-bLEIpi jjhWdS lead-asset__ntent__photo"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW jvZaPI rponsive-asset ContentHearRponsiveAsset-bREgIb khLUzS"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jHLlMr"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO KhjZz ContentHearRponsiveAsset-bREgIb khLUzS rponsive-image rponsive-image--expandable"><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w, 960w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w, 960w, 1280w, 1600w, 1920w, 2240w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Two women stand together as they speak to a room full of reporters." class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></picture></div></div></span><div class="CaptnWrapper-jSZdqE iTuhkZ ptn ContentHearLeadAssetCaptn-hPWmSN kuCzGS"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ CaptnText-bHjzlu iUEiRd hWyo iXWezO ptn__text">Julie and Hillary Goodridge, the first same-sex uple the Uned Stat to enjoy a state-sanctned marriage, 2004, talk to reporters after their ceremony.</span><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ CaptnCred-ejegDm iUEiRd iicloT jbIJNS ptn__cred">Photograph by Elise Amendola / AP / Shutterstock</span></div></div></figure><div data-ttid="ContentHearLeadRailAnchor" class="ContentHearLeadRailAnchor-jYVcDc djtEof"></div></div></div></div></hear></div><div data-attribute-verso-pattern="article-body" class="ArticlePageContentBackGround-cNiFNN kbAoLA article-body__ntent"><div class="ActnBarWrapperContent-lasBkU cAHp"><div class="ActnBarWrapperComponent-cjwxLS bEeSLb"><div data-attr-viewport-monor="" class="ActnBarWrapper-dhxmQh kNjTbQ viewport-monor-anchor"><button id="bookmark" aria-label="Save this story" class="ActnBarButton-dyFOZU hQrwCF bookmark large-screen"><span class="ActnBarSendaryButtonPrimaryIn-isbvyN cAwccV bookmark-button-in"><svg class="in in-bookmark" width="24" height="24" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" xmlns="><tle>Save this story</tle><path class="in-bookmark-fill" d="M20 23.9508L12.5 19.7312L5 23.9508V2.95081H14V3.93211H6V22.1845L12.5 18.5536L19 22.1845V8.83866H20V23.9508Z"></path><path class="in-bookmark-fill" d="M23 3H20V0H19V3H16V4H19V7H20V4H23V3Z"></path></svg></span><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ ActnBarButtonText-bYXYuh iUEiRd bkefvo gkccfO">Save this story</span></button></div><div data-attr-viewport-monor="" class="ActnBarWrapper-dhxmQh kAEsuD viewport-monor-anchor"><button id="bookmark" aria-label="Save this story" class="ActnBarButton-dyFOZU cjjxgx bookmark mobile"><span class="ActnBarSendaryButtonPrimaryIn-isbvyN cAwccV bookmark-button-in"><svg class="in in-bookmark" width="24" height="24" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" xmlns="><tle>Save this story</tle><path class="in-bookmark-fill" d="M20 23.9508L12.5 19.7312L5 23.9508V2.95081H14V3.93211H6V22.1845L12.5 18.5536L19 22.1845V8.83866H20V23.9508Z"></path><path class="in-bookmark-fill" d="M23 3H20V0H19V3H16V4H19V7H20V4H23V3Z"></path></svg></span><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ ActnBarButtonText-bYXYuh iUEiRd bkefvo gkccfO">Save this story</span></button></div></div></div><div class="LightboxWrapper-dxsWBV hhylRt"><div class="ArticlePageChunksContent-etcMtP bwyLBj"><div data-ttid="ArticlePageChunks" class="ArticlePageChunks-fLyCVG Uozmo"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="has-dropp has-dropp__lead-standard-headg">In his new book, “<a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">The Engagement: Ameri’s Quarter-Century Stggle Over Same-Sex Marriage</a>,” the journalist Sasha Issenberg chronicl one of our untry’s most recent civil-rights battl, tracg the evolutn of the e om 1990, when started to bee a polil movement, to s ratifitn by the Supreme Court, 2015. Issenberg’s subjects are the activists, policians, and judicial figur who, tentnally or not, found themselv at s foreont. That gay marriage would bee legal after only a twenty-five-year fight, Issenberg wr, “was beyond the wilst hop of gay-rights activists jt years before.” The book attempts to expla why this mpaign succeed so quickly and how relig nservativ advertently furthered a e they passnately opposed.</p><p class="paywall">I recently spoke by phone wh Issenberg, who has prevly wrten about the science behd polil mpaigns and electns. Durg our nversatn, which has been eded for length and clary, we discsed what ma the stggle for gay marriage distct om other civil-rights movements, how Tmp’s electn shifted the foc of social nservatism away om sexual polics, and what this fight n tell about future civil-rights battl.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>How is the stggle for gay marriage Ameri different om other stggl for civil rights Amerin history?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I thk the obv thgs that we want to pare to are the movements for racial equaly and for women’s rights. And one sential element is that, unlike race and genr, people generally have the abily to ntrol the circumstanc unr which they acknowledge and disclose the fact that they are gay or lbian. And so the procs of g out, which is the unrlyg social enge of a lot of the opn change that leads to polil and legal victori, is somethg that’s available to members of the gay and lbian muny that is not available to Ain-Amerins or to women, their .</p><p class="paywall">And I still n’t ci whether this is a profound observatn or a banal one, but most gay people are born to straight people—which means that they are, one prum, evenly distributed across the populatn, which is to say that they’re not geographilly ncentrated, that the likelihood of anybody the untry g to know somebody as a neighbor or a fay member or a classmate who’s gay or lbian is probably more or ls equally distributed. And we’ve seen across gay-rights issu, not jt marriage, that the bt predictor of liberal attus has always been how somebody answers the qutn “Do you have a iend, fay member, or -worker who’s gay or lbian?”</p><p class="paywall"><strong>What do your first observatn—that people n choose when they e out—mean practice?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-1 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">That people get some gree of cultural or social acceptance, then feel fortable g out, and then the people around them regnize that they know somebody who’s gay or lbian. I thk ’s ls likely that you’re, like, “Oh, voilà, my neighbor’s Black.” Or, “I jt learned that my kid’s schoolteacher’s a woman. Now I’m gog to revis how I thk about issu that perta to them.” One of the thgs that make very easy for people to grow more liberal on the marriage qutn—as basilly forty per cent of the Amerin populatn has, over a generatn—is that don’t ask the majory to give up much to the mory, which has been a central source of polil ictn around a lot of other civil-rights or social-jtice movements.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>You cid to ver both activists and big polil actors like the Supreme Court. Was there a reason you felt you had to do the si stggle and the outsi stggle?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Yeah. I mean, I thk that this is someplace where wrg about marriage is different than wrg about the entirety of the gay-rights movement. There was a much longer perd of the broar qut for equal rights for gays and lbians, when activists were operatg whout much acknowledgment om, reactn om, and teractn wh the polil class or stutns. And so I thk when people have wrten histori of gay activism the neteen-fifti or sixti or seventi, there are far fewer policians or judg there. The story I tell starts 1990. And at that pot there was hardly anybody who was an activist for same-sex-marriage rights. No signifint gay-rights group the untry had endorsed marriage as an objective. And end up the hands of the Hawaii Supreme Court. And, by 1996, this was ont of Congrs and the Print. Marriage was an issue that ma the jump. Activists did not spend s toilg obscury at the periphery of our polics tryg to get people to pay attentn to this. It land the laps of powerful people pretty quickly after emerged as a kd of viable policy objective.</p><div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--article-mid-ntent" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--article-mid-ntent nsumer-marketg-un__slot---ntent"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><p class="paywall"><strong>The way we normally tell stori about civil rights this untry is that there’s a ph for civil rights, and then there’s a reactnary backlash to that—which has effects of s own. But one of the tertg thgs about your book, I thought, was that a way you’re sayg that the backlash to gay marriage helped the gay-marriage e, or phed along. And the normal story we tell is reversed some way.</strong></p><div class="Contaer-bkChBi byNLHx"></div><p class="paywall">Yeah. So, this big victory at the Hawaii Supreme Court leads to the Defense of Marriage Act, which is clearly a form of backlash agast this signifint, but lol, victory Hawaii. Then all of a sudn Congrs and the Print are preëmptively fg marriage for one of the first tim feral law. And we see a slight h to the pollg support for gay marriage. Somethg siar happens 2003 after the Massachetts Supreme Court l favor of marriage: public opn dips aga, and you get an active ph for a feral marriage amendment eventually supported by the Bh Whe Hoe, and a blossomg of the state-level nstutnal bans. And I thk you n look at what happened California 2008, where the California Supreme Court orrs that same-sex upl have the right to marry and, wh six months, Proposn 8 has passed at the ballot box, takg away that right.</p><p class="paywall">So there were exampl of backlash all over this story, but, over the longer arc of this, the backlash end up provg unterproductive. So, the mid-neteen-neti, anti-gay activists on the maland who rpond to this urt cisn Hawaii end up unifyg a gay-rights movement that had been unvted marriage as a e and actured iologilly over as a strategic proposn—over the tra-offs, terms of cremental gas that would have to be put asi the qut for marriage rights. And, all of a sudn, some gay-rights activists who had been prcipled opponents of seekg marriage ci that, bee their opponents want to ny them that right, they feel basilly obliged to fight for .</p><p class="paywall"><strong>It’s not a bad argument, right? It’s, like, people want to take somethg away om you, you should damn well want to fight for </strong>.</p><p class="paywall">Yeah. It’s also the nature of aln polics. And gays and lbians and bisexuals and transgenr people were a aln, and their opponents cid that what was wh that aln had been a niche issue but was now gog to be the primary area which they were gog to fight. They basilly end up advertently bag the whole aln to fendg somethg they hadn’t wanted to fend. Then the level at which this nflict uld be rolved changed.</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><asi class="PersistentAsiWrapper-VGrR daRVRt persistent-asi" style="posn:absolute;top:to;height:to" data-ttid="PersistentAsiWrapper"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="gcifls"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></asi></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="vc6x8f"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">And that’s bee marriage had been, wh very few exceptns Amerin history—like when Congrs banned polygamy, or when the Supreme Court overturned state laws banng terracial marriage—somethg that had been left to the stat. And there’s a unterfactual where, if nservativ had not natnalized this issue, would have played out very slowly, state by state. This go om beg a qutn that uld have played out fifty state judiciari and state legislatur, and stead be somethg that ne Jtic n le on. And tak a while to see , but that ends up beg a huge strategic miscue by same-sex-marriage opponents that mak really easy for same-sex-marriage supporters to w natnally.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-2 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>The marriage movement advanced a fairly nservative objective—and did so the midst of the <em class="small">AIDS</em> crisis. I know that the ia spl more radil activists, such as Larry Kramer, whom you scribe as an early supporter of marriage equaly. How did divis the gay-rights movement manift themselv the marriage fight?</strong></p><p class="paywall">There were fely cleavag wh the movement over marriage. To the extent that people were batg same-sex marriage the neteen-eighti, was a circle of gay and lbian lawyers and legal theorists. The folks dog what we would ll L.G.B.T. fay law then were at the time overwhelmgly lbian lawyers reprentg lbian clients, who were ually women who had had children a heterosexual marriage, e out of the closet, left their hbands, and had to go to urt to fight for their own blogil children. And some of those lawyers had gone to llege and law school and been shaped by send-wave femism, and they saw marriage as an stutn that was tablished to subjugate women. And so there was this crique of marriage as an sentially patriarchal, heteronormative stutn.</p><p class="paywall">The objective for many of the fay-law typ was a legal regime that valued what they lled multiple fai—which was to say, a legal regime which the law treated equally a broad spectm of faial arrangements, so not jt pairgs of any genr batn but sgle parents and unmarried people habatg, and munal livg, and they saw the goal of gay and lbian fai as openg up the range of relatnships the ernment regnized.</p><p class="paywall">And there was also a related but separate ph, which grew out of the liberatnist impuls of gay polics the neteen-seventi—which argued that gays and lbians had adopted their own sexual valu and mor, and would be fundamentally regrsive to make a polil goal seekg acceptance what they saw as this middle-class, Amerin stutn, and the goal of gays and lbians should be to remake relatnships their own image, and not mand acceptance or assiatn.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>How central was the <em class="small">AIDS</em> movement to the cleavag</strong>?</p><p class="paywall">It magnified the extent to which gays and lbians were themselv a polil aln. <em class="small">AIDS</em> was overwhelmgly a problem for men the neteen-eighti more than women. Gay men were stantly forced to al wh all of the ath issu that had not really been prent—and certaly not part of the gay polil agenda. “Can I vis my partner the hospal?” “What happens to my property when I die?” That was not somethg lbians were facg the same way. But a lot of lbians were focsed on the life qutns. A lot of them had had children heterosexual marriag, and had to fight to adopt their own children, and saw that the urts held their sexualy agast them. And so, as the neteen-eighti end, they had divergent sets of material ncerns volvg the law.</p><p class="paywall">There is an important se that go to the New York Court of Appeals lled Braschi, where two men were livg a rent-stabilized apartment: one of them di, almost certaly of <em class="small">AIDS</em>, and the landlord tri to evict the survivg partner, and they challenge unr New York’s stabilizatn statute, and the urt l that two men who live together qualify as close fay members. That was a ncern that was clearly motivated by <em class="small">AIDS</em> that would not have been a legal e years earlier.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I thk, generally, when people thk of the stggle for gay marriage, they often thk about the relative speed wh which was acplished pared wh other stggl Amerin history. Do you thk that n be replited other movements?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-3 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">I thk there are certaly some stctural, tactil cisns that same-sex-marriage supporters ma that helped lead them to victory. And that, broadly, there are lsons that other mpaigners or social movements n adopt. But the ia that there’s a kd of off-the-shelf manual for twenty-five years of social change. . . .</p><p class="paywall">One important thg is there’s an anizatn lled Freedom to Marry, which was a sgle-issue mpaign anizatn wh one goal: equal marriage rights across fifty stat and the District of Columbia. And, up until this pot, the major players L.G.B.T. polics, the Human Rights Campaign, the Natnal Gay and Lbian Task Force, and a lot of state-level anizatns, have a really broad panoply of issu that they are vted . They reprent a aln that is fairly broad, basilly sexual mori, and have a whole lot of issu that they’re workg on: they’re tryg to stop hate crim, they’re tryg to get regnn for fai, they’re tryg to allow gays and lbians to serve the ary, a whole bunch of thgs. It’s been a recurrg trope among gay-rights activists that the Human Rights Campaign, the most wealthy and proment of the gay-rights groups, is too focsed on the si game, too focsed on wng accs, raisg money. Some activists believe that the gay-rights movement as a whole did not fight strongly enough agast the Defense of Marriage Act or agast the feral marriage amendment bee the Human Rights Campaign wasn’t ready to fight and that this was evince of their acmodatnist sort of approach to polics.</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="dhohvq"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">It’s clear that the H.R.C. was always actg, I thk, que ratnally, that they had had a broad set of issu that they red about, and they tend to e fluence Washgton stutns to get . And they had to weigh the mers of fightg over marriage wh the mers of tryg to get progrs on other issu. When Freedom to Marry along, they don’t have to make those promis. And so they are able to velop a strategy that’s not based on tra-offs between “If we ph for marriage this state, will step back our efforts to get a nondiscrimatn ordance passed?” And Freedom to Marry said, “We’re gog to put ourselv out of bs after we meet our goal,” which they did after the Supreme Court led 2015. And that is not the way that most tert groups are set up. They’re set up basilly to perpetuate themselv. And that means that they are havg to weigh not jt their policy objectiv, but their donors and their members and their long-term stabily.</p><p class="paywall">And I thk rais a lot of qutns. Where would gun laws be if, stead of havg the broad gun-ntrol anizatns, a group is focsed solely on background checks?</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Probably the same place, but your pot may still be rrect.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Yeah. But I thk that the natural physics of tert-group polics and alns is to make them bigger. And if you really are focsed on one discrete policy objective, the bigns and broadns of those groups n be self-featg.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Well, this also go to your earlier pot, that the relig right did the e of gay rights a favor by makg more about one specific thg.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Yeah. They helped set up the terms of a bate, and then, later, gay-rights activists wh big donors built an astcture that uld fight the nflict on those terms.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-4 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>We were talkg about backlash earlier, and you mentn near the end of the book that a backlash to gay marriage hasn’t really happened the way one often expects. How do you unrstand that?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I thk there are a few elements here. One is that anti-gay activists were not surprised when the Obergefell cisn me down 2015. It looked almost fated, based on the urt’s earlier lg and the way that had handled appeals to circu-urt cisns. So I don’t thk that there was the emotnal letdown on the day of the cisn that would’ve galvanized some opposn. And, bee of that, many of those activists had already begun to move to an area where they still had strength, where the public opn looked a lot more like did around gay marriage twenty years ago—which is trans issu. And so they basilly said, “We have lost the gay-marriage fight, but we have this nearby place where we n manufacture nflict om a posn of strength.” And many of the same stutns that had been fightg over gay marriage all of a sudn jt started fightg over issu related to transgenr people.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>That was gog to be my next qutn—to what gree is a cince that trans issu have bee more proment the past five years?</strong></p><p class="paywall">There was all this pacy that had been built. I mean, part of the story of how we end up fightg about gay marriage the neteen-neti is that the gay-rights movement and the relig right grew up more or ls parallel the late seventi and beme profsnalized and well fund through the eighti. By the neti, the gay-rights movement was a central part of the Democratic-left aln, and the relig right was a central player Republin polics. And they had veloped pacy for nflict. They were basilly on a llisn urse. And the only qutn was: What were they gog to fight over? And this popped up on the radar as the thg that they started to fight over.</p><p class="paywall">I thk what happened twenty years later, around the time of the 2015 Supreme Court lg, was that the alns were bigger and stronger many rpects, more entrenched, and still need somethg to fight over. Relig nservativ had lost their posn of strength for a variety of reasons—opn change, mographic chang. And then they cid that they were gog to go to trans issu stead.</p><p class="paywall">The other part of is the smology of relig nservativ shifted wh the feat over same-sex marriage, where they may have ced the broar culture wars. There’s a reason Jerry Falwell lled his anizatn the Moral Majory. The kd of motivatg nce of relig-nservative activism through the eighti and neti, and much of the two-thoands, was based on the ia that there’s a Juo-Christian majory the untry and the laws of the Uned Stat should reflect s valu. And losg the nflict over gay marriage, I thk, persuad many of those relig nservativ that they were not, fact, the majory—that now you don’t have to watch more than ten mut of Fox News to unrstand that the smology of the current Amerin right is that they are a bieged mory, unr siege by the urts, and amia, and Hollywood. And, once they began to thk of themselv as a bieged mory, they started dog what bieged mori do our nstutnal system, which is to ask the urts for protectn. And that tak the form of the relig-liberty exemptns, which is basilly an acknowledgment of the ncsn of feat the broar stggle.</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="zhwuoh"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="rmbns"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">The third part of the puzzle is Donald Tmp. In June, 2015, the two thgs happened. June 16th is when Donald Tmp announc his mpaign for Print. On the 26th of June, the Obergefell cisn down. If you had told me advance that a major civil-rights cisn was gog to land that overturned state laws that had been mocratilly enacted by the rints of Alabama the same month that one of the most talented magogu Amerin history was gog to announce his mpaign for Print, I would have assumed that those two thgs would bee terrelated some really dangero, sry ways, and they didn’t.</p><p class="paywall">Donald Tmp had an stct and a tremendo gift for ptg Amerins agast one another, and he cis he’s gog to n for Print and talk about Mexins and Mlims and women and immigrants, but he has no natural bile for gays and lbians. There are a lot of ways which his Admistratn later set back gay rights, but he did not want to talk about those issu. I thk, jt given the way that that primary played out, ndidat like Ted Cz or Rick Santom or Mike Huckabee or Bobby Jdal—who otherwise would have been highly cled to cheerlead a backlash to marriage sce the Obergefell cisn—regnized pretty quickly that that’s not where the news was the summer of 2015.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-5 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>You wrote an <a href=">op-ed</a> last weekend the <em>Tim</em> which was headled “Cancel Culture Works: We Wouldn’t Have Marriage Equaly Whout It.” For the book, you went back and looked at the different ways that gay-rights anizatns and gay-rights activists shamed, shunned, and boytted opponents of same-sex marriage. Do you feel that you’re seeg some of the same tactics that are today labelled “ncel culture,” or do you feel like those activists avoid what crics of ncel culture fd so damagg today?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Yeah. Well, I’m glad we’re not gog to have a nversatn about what ncel culture means or don’t, bee I actually don’t really know. I thk that one of the big chang that take place the marriage bate is how the money dynamic shifts the years between 2008, when gay-marriage supporters suffered this massive setback when Proposn 8 passed California, and four years later, 2012, the first time they sweep four ballot measur. One of the big thgs is the extent to which the pro-gay-marriage si of the bate opened up a major fancial advantage over opponents. You had a clter of exceedgly wealthy gay donors, mostly gay whe men who had ma their money through tech or hered , who the two-thoands had bee uniquely terted marriage among all the issu on the agenda. By 2012, Mike Bloomberg was givg major ntributns. Jeff Bezos was givg major ntributns. You had a whole lot of Wall Street donors, cludg Republins, who were givg generoly as well.</p><p class="paywall">The other thg that’s happeng is big donors basilly abandon the other si of the fight: by 2012, ’s clear that the folks nng the effort to ban same-sex marriage are jt havg trouble gog to their normal donors, cludg archdc. There’s somethg about beg associated wh this issue that people don’t want to al wh, terms of media scty and acceptance among their peers the bs world. I thk so often this ncel-culture nversatn is played out over the propriety of , or the place of the tactics a liberal mocracy, and here’s this really important recent se study that shows actually works. Srg away proposns’ fancial backers through shame is somethg that n have a dramatic effect on the trajectory of a particular polil bate, and the Inter has ma much easier for dividuals to lnch and anize the typ of attacks.</p><le-embed name="" attrs="[object Object]" childTyp="" hasProducts="false" ntentType="llout:"><hr class="paywall"/><h2 class="paywall">More New Yorker Conversatns</h2><ul class="paywall"><li><a href=">Pam Grier</a> on the needs of Hollywood, and her own.</li><li><a href=">Alexey Navalny</a> has the proof of his poisong.</li><li><a href=">Chance the Rapper</a> is still figurg thgs out.</li><li>How <a href=">Ben Stiller</a> will remember his father.</li><li><a href=">Esther Perel</a> says that love is not a permanent state of enthiasm.</li><li><a href=">Ad-Rock</a> jt wants to be iends.</li><li><a href=">Fran Lebowz</a> is never leavg New York.</li><li>Sign up for our <a href=">newsletter</a> and never miss another New Yorker Interview.</li></ul></le-embed></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="dkamuo"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 PaywallInleBarrierWhWrapperGrid-fyrGfS kLQIUk grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="body body__le-barrier article__body"><div class="ntaer ntaer--body"><div class="ntaer--body-ner"><asi class="PaywallInleBarrierWrapper-iBnuqk lfXXa-D" data-ttid="PaywallInleBarrierWrapper"><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--paywall-le-barrier" role="prentatn" aria-live="pole" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--paywall-le-barrier"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></asi></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ContentWrapperGrid-fvkmBv brYtrA grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="body body__ntaer"><div class="ntaer ntaer--body"><div class="ntaer--body-ner"></div></div></div></div></div></div></article><div class="ContentFooterWrapper-jVNdRG dTJkpP ArticlePageContentFooterGrid-ccsXYy eMZRHU article-body__footer"><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="ContributorsWrapper-eNpWFu GWFsc ntributors" data-ttid="Contributors"><div class="ContributorBWrapper-bnVHbt gMon"><div class="ContributorBAvatar-bIGTqf eMWbvj"><a href="/ntributors/isaac-choter"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW jvZaPI rponsive-asset"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa rponsive-image"><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></picture></span></a></div><div class="ContributorBContent-ubQdr jZTSSi"><div class="ContributorBHear-ledood XOIEx"></div><div class="ContributorBB-fBolsO giFhKz"><a href="/ntributors/isaac-choter">Isaac Choter</a> is a staff wrer at The New Yorker, where he is the prcipal ntributor to Q. & A., a seri of terviews wh public figur polics, media, books, bs, technology, and more.</div><div class="ContributorBFooter-brqDlv ezUmSv"></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div data-ttid="TagCloudWrapper" class="TagCloudWrapper-gGgndx ctyZyK ContentFooterTagCloud-krQmRG ZLGh"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudSectnHear-cOforY iUEiRd bPyAoD kQQRmu">More:</span><a href="/tag/civil-rights" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">Civil Rights</span></a><a href="/tag/lgbtq" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">LGBTQ</span></a><a href="/tag/gay-marriage" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">Gay Marriage</span></a><a href="/tag/social-jtice" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">Social Jtice</span></a></div></div></div></div><div data-ttid="ContentFooterBottom" class="ContentFooterBottom-jwWZfC kcbyiW"><div class="ContentFooterNewsletterContentWrapper-bmjtna kixtae"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div data-ttid="NewsletterSubscribeFormWrapper" class="NewsletterSubscribeFormWrapper-fCqqkN jKSBhE newsletter-subscribe-form ContentFooterNewsletterForm-hKeYwa liPqcf"><div data-ttid="NewsletterSubscribeFormHedDekWrapper" class="NewsletterSubscribeFormHedDekWrapper-fpMElW eglIBL"><h3 class="NewsletterSubscribeFormDangeroHed-kRwWjt kbxOa-D newsletter-subscribe-form__hed ContentFooterNewsletterForm-hKeYwa liPqcf">Daily</h3><div class="NewsletterSubscribeFormDek-kXonvc cKOhTM newsletter-subscribe-form__k">The bt of <i>The New Yorker</i> today, cludg sential reads, fictn, humor, and a peek behd the scen of our biggt stori.</div></div><div data-ttid="NewsletterSubscribeFormInputsWrapper" class="NewsletterSubscribeFormInputsWrapper-keARJE hVWbzr"><form class="form-wh-validatn NewsletterSubscribeFormValidatn-iCYa-Dt dweEln" id="newsletter" name="newsletter" novalidate="" method="POST"><span class="TextFieldWrapper-Pzdqp hNhevp text-field" data-ttid="TextFieldWrapper__email"><label class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TextFieldLabel-klrYvg iUEiRd stdEm fvoOvz text-field__label text-field__label--sgle-le" for="newsletter-text-field-email" data-ttid="TextFieldLabel__email"><div class="TextFieldLabelText-cvvxBl eeDYTb">E-mail addrs</div><div class="TextFieldInputContaer-jcMPhb oFrOs"><put type="email" aria-scribedby="privacy-text" aria-valid="false" id="newsletter-text-field-email" required="" name="email" placeholr="E-mail addrs" class="BaseInput-fAzTdK TextFieldControlInput-eFUxkf eGzzTT laFPCK text-field__ntrol text-field__ntrol--put" data-ttid="TextFieldInput__email"/></div></label><button class="BaseButton-bLlsy ButtonWrapper-xCepQ bqVKKv dwpimO button button--utily TextFieldButton-csBrgY edxbrw" data-event-click="{"element":"Button"}" data-ttid="Button" type="subm"><span class="ButtonLabel-cjAuJN hzwRuG button__label">Sign up</span></button></span><div id="privacy-text" tabx="-1" class="NewsletterSubscribeFormDisclaimer-bTVtiV bsgLJZ"><span><p>By signg up, you agree to our <a href=" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">User Agreement</a> and <a href=" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Privacy Policy & Cookie Statement</a>. This se is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google<a href=" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"> Privacy Policy</a> and<a href=" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"> Terms of Service</a> apply.</p></span></div></form></div></div></div></div></div><div class="ntent-bottom-anchor"></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--article-footer" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--article-footer"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div><div data-attr-viewport-monor="" class="recirc-list-wrapper viewport-monor-anchor"><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan ContentFooterRelated-kEBiFe kVUuwq"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 SummaryCollectnGridComponent-ktyEog bdTTVU summary-llectn-grid RecircListDefltOverlaySummaryCollectnGrid-AHJhY bEaXiL recirc-list__ems summary-llectn-grid--four-lumns summary-llectn-grid--DenseDktopStack"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="SummaryCollectnGridContent-eVUpRm jTGbEO"><div class="SectnTleRoot-dBGvdq kjAxEG SummaryCollectnGridSectnTle-fCmYwG izjbVn" data-ttid="SectnTle"><hear class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SectnTleHed-dKqZet dxqEAa dqtvfu jttyjJ">Read More</hear></div><div class="SummaryCollectnGridItems-DZShR jBCYOL hi-read-more-ad" data-ttid="SummaryCollectnGridItems"><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff ewgXAt summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm dqlGhv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Upper Wt Si Cult That Hid Pla Sight" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl bcywvc summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Unr Review</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">The Upper Wt Si Cult That Hid Pla Sight</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Upper Wt Si Cult That Hid Pla Sight" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">In the sixti and seventi, the Sullivanian Instute had a wng sal pch for young New Yorkers: parti, sex, low rent, and affordable therapy.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Jsi Wter</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff ewgXAt summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm dqlGhv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Are You the Same Person You Used to Be?" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl bcywvc summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Annals of Inquiry</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Are You the Same Person You Used to Be?</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Are You the Same Person You Used to Be?" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">Rearchers have studied how much of our personaly is set om childhood, but what you’re like isn’t who you are.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Joshua Rothman</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff ewgXAt summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm dqlGhv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Country Mic’s Culture Wars and the Remakg of Nashville" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl bcywvc summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Amerin Chronicl</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Country Mic’s Culture Wars and the Remakg of Nashville</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Country Mic’s Culture Wars and the Remakg of Nashville" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">Tennsee’s ernment has turned hard red, but a new set of outlaw songwrers is challengg Mic Cy’s nservative ways—and lg bro-untry sound.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Ey Nsbm</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff ewgXAt summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm dqlGhv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="On Killg Charl Dickens" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl bcywvc summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Life and Letters</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">On Killg Charl Dickens</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="On Killg Charl Dickens" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">I did everythg I uld to avoid wrg my historil novel. When I fally started “The Frd,” one prciple was clear: no Dickens.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Zadie Smh</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm dqlGhv ad ad--read-more"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--read-more" data-no-id="kcg0zr"></div></div></div><div class="SummaryCollectnGridToActnWrapper-gnReGN eGayfk"></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="TaboolaWrapper-hMVdpE iYfBhy"><div class="TaboolaWidgetWrapper-egPIjc hkSrgt TaboolaWidget-eUSdED hQCCRa" data-ttid="TaboolaWidgetWrapper"><div class="TaboolaWidgetContent-iBEQTO eXroXG TABOOLA" id="taboola-below-article-thumbnails---f" data-ttid="TaboolaWidgetContent"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--footer should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--footer" data-no-id="f33nm"></div></div></div></div></div></ma><div class="BasePageMaFooterFiller-hTlZph jSriYf page__ma-footer-filler"></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--cm-footer" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--cm-footer"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan BasePageSeFooterRow-kpEBGH rjBtU"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 BasePageSeFooterRowGrid-iBGjXL zQNeb"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><footer class="SeFooterWrapper-bXjkRY gKJGws se-footer--wh-store"><div class="SeFooterGridNoMargs-jSrXSj cQgGDp" data-ttid="SeFooterGridNoMargs"><div class="SeFooterBrandInfo-cdoqKy cdkwFG"><div class="SeFooterLogo-eYlNHY eigdAF se-footer__logo"><a href="/"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW jvZaPI rponsive-asset SeFooterLogoRponsiveAsset-ckjzWk kubVDn se-footer__rponsive-image"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SeFooterLogoRponsiveAsset-ckjzWk kubVDn se-footer__rponsive-image rponsive-image"><img alt="The New Yorker" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="/verso/static/the-new-yorker/assets/" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/></picture></span></a></div></div><nav aria-label="Sectns" class="NavigatnWrapper-bFftAs fKSZRK SeFooterNavigatnVertil-eawNCf hgahMe" data-ttid="navigatn"><p data-ttid="navigatn__headg" class="NavigatnHeadgWrapper-befTuI kSFYXD navigatn__headg"><button data-ttid="navigatn__headg-button" type="button" aria-expand="false" class="NavigatnHeadgButton-eDVixB fiYwDK">Sectns<span data-ttid="navigatn__headg-arrow" class="NavigatnHeadgArrow-iJeTMa gGaHQm"></span></button></p><ul class="NavigatnListWrapper-gWXLVS fSEziN navigatn__list" data-ttid="navigatn__list"><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/news" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">News</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/culture" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Books & Culture</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/fictn-and-poetry" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Fictn & Poetry</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/humor" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Humor & Cartoons</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/magaze" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Magaze</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/crossword-puzzl-and-gam" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Crossword</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href=" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Vio</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/podst" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Podsts</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/archive" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Archive</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/gogs-on-about-town" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Gogs On</a></li></ul></nav><span class="NavigatnDivir-fEDnwq ixXXMs navigatn__divir"></span><nav aria-label="More" class="NavigatnWrapper-bFftAs fKSZRK SeFooterNavigatnContactVertil-kReQvb ejvbAv" data-ttid="navigatn"><p data-ttid="navigatn__headg" class="NavigatnHeadgWrapper-befTuI kSFYXD navigatn__headg"><button data-ttid="navigatn__headg-button" type="button" aria-expand="false" class="NavigatnHeadgButton-eDVixB fiYwDK">More<span data-ttid="navigatn__headg-arrow" class="NavigatnHeadgArrow-iJeTMa gGaHQm"></span></button></p><ul class="NavigatnListWrapper-gWXLVS fSEziN navigatn__list" data-ttid="navigatn__list"><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href=" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Ctomer Care</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href=" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Shop The New Yorker</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href=" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Buy Covers and Cartoons</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href=" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Condé Nast Store</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/digal-edns" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Digal Accs</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/newsletter" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Newsletters</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/jigsaw" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Jigsaw Puzzle</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD JsNkg navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/about/feeds" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">RSS</a></li></ul></nav><span class="NavigatnDivir-fEDnwq ixXXMs navigatn__divir"></span><div class="SeFooterNoticWrapper-gbuTHd kdRVhS"><div class="SeFooterNoticContaerWrapper-cQMYXm jYCnSe"><nav aria-label="Notic" class="NavigatnWrapper-bFftAs fKSZRK SeFooterNavigatnHorizontal-cWLRMH eTQAIE" data-ttid="navigatn"><ul class="NavigatnListWrapper-gWXLVS dnLcIy navigatn__list" data-ttid="navigatn__list"><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/about/" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">About</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/about/reers" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Careers</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/about/ntact" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Contact</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/about/faq" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">F.A.Q.</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href=" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Media K</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/about/prs" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" role="lk">Prs</a></li><li class="NavigatnListItemWrapper-cxLZKD dsgTQs navigatn__list-em" data-ttid="navigatn__list-em"><a class="NavigatnInternalLk-cWEaeo knabMb navigatn__lk" href="/about/accsibily-help" data-ttid="navigatn__ternal-lk" rel="nofollow" role="lk">Accsibily Help</a></li></ul></nav><span class="NavigatnDivir-fEDnwq ixXXMs navigatn__divir"></span><p data-ttid="dangero-legale-brand-text" class="SeFooterLegaleText-bquxSW eUChdN">© <!-- -->2023<!-- --> Condé Nast. All rights rerved. Use of this se nstut acceptance of our<!-- --> <a class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">User Agreement</a> and <a class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Privacy Policy and Cookie Statement</a> and <a class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Your California Privacy Rights.</a> <em>The New Yorker</em> may earn a portn of sal om products that are purchased through our se as part of our Affiliate Partnerships wh retailers. The material on this se may not be reproduced, distributed, transmted, ched or otherwise ed, except wh the prr wrten permissn of Condé Nast.<!-- --> <a class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Ad Choic</a></p><div class="SeFooterCollectnContaer-iKPzYu cUTUWM"></div><div class="SocialInsWrapper-hKMEXV hwdgCG social-ins social-ins--footer SeFooterSocialIns-cLAKVY cPpkaJ"><ul data-ttid="socialInslist" class="SocialInsList-cHVTIA gBoIvv social-ins__list"><li class="SocialInsListItem-mbhR izQXJd social-ins__list-em social-ins__list-em--facebook social-ins__list-em--footer thner"><a aria-label="Follow on Facebook" class="external-lk SocialInExternalLk-huuzOU kupRzT social-ins__lk social-ins__lk--facebook" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank"><div class="SocialInContaer-huXzUC pMzVC social-ins__in-ntaer"><svg class="SocialInNetworkInComponent-cZaKGz dlOAhZ in in-facebook" focable="false" width="7.2" height="16" viewBox="0 0 7.2 16" xmlns="><tle>Facebook

new yorker gay marriage