The Chillg Confsns of a Cop Turned Serial Killer of Gay Men

Contents:

• THE CHILLG CONFSNS OF A COP TURNED SERIAL KILLER OF GAY MENTHE FACE OF EVILHARRY DEMPSTER/DAILY EXPRS/HULTON ARCHIVE/GETTYTHE NETFLIX DOC “MEMORI OF A MURRER: THE NILSEN TAP” NTAS CREEPY TERVIEWS WH DENNIS NILSEN, A MADMAN WHO ADMTED TO KILLG 15 RENT BOYS OVER A FIVE-YEAR PERD.NICK SCHAGERENTERTAMENT CRICUPDATED AUG. 17, 2021 5:42AM EDT / PUBLISHED AUG. 17, 2021 5:01AM EDT KILLERS DON’T LIKE TO GET UGHT, BUT ONCE CTODY, THEY SURE DO LIKE TO TALK, AS EVINCED BY A RAFT OF TE-CRIME EFFORTS—CONVERSATNS WH A KILLER: THE TED BUNDY TAP, CONONTG A SERIAL KILLER, THE CONFSN KILLER, THE SONS OF SAM: A DCENT INTO DARKNS AND ELIZE MATSUNAGA: ONCE UPON A CRIME, AMONG OTHERS—CENTERED AROUND TAPED NVERSATNS WH NOTOR FIENDS. TO THAT LIST ONE N NOW ADD MEMORI OF A MURRER: THE NILSEN TAP, A NON-FICTN FILM WHOSE PRIMARY DRAW IS A RAFT OF PERSONAL RERDGS MA BY DENNIS NILSEN, THE STTISH MADMAN WHO TERRORIZED LONDON DURG THE 1980S, AND WHOSE KILLG SPREE, AND ATTEMPT TO AVOID RCERATN, WAS RECENTLY IMMORTALIZED BY A SUNDANCE NOW DRAMATIC SERI STARRG DAVID TENNANT.HELMED BY FIRST-TIME DIRECTOR MICHAEL HARTE, WHO’S PREVLY EDED DON’T F**K WH CATS: HUNTG AN INTER KILLER AS WELL AS THREE INTIL STRANGERS, MEMORI OF A MURRER: THE NILSEN TAP (AUG. 18, ON NETFLIX) BEGS WH NILSEN SLAMMG THE NOTN THAT HE LIBERATELY SOUGHT IMMORTALY, AS WAS CLAIMED BY A NEWSPAPER ARTICLE THAT SURMISED HE HAD A HUNGER FOR THE SPOTLIGHT OM THE HANNIBAL LECTER POSTER HANGG HIS JAIL CELL. NILSEN’S PROTTS, HOWEVER, DON’T JIBE WH THE MANY D TAP HE MA WHILE PRISON. INTEND TO FORM THE FOUNDATN OF HIS TOBGRAPHY (SELF AN ATTENTN-URTG VANY PROJECT), THE RERDGS FD THE MURRER EXPOUNDG ON HIS LIFE AND CIRCUMSTANC WH AN ELOQUENCE THAT REEKS OF AFFECTED SMUGNS—A QUALY THAT’S ALSO TE OF HIS EVERYMAN SCHTICK, AS IF ANYONE WOULD BUY FOR A SEND THAT, BEE OF HIS ORDARY APPEARANCE AND MEANOR, HE WASN’T A DANGERO PREDATOR. THERE’S NO NYG THAT NILSEN’S NONSCRIPT EXTERR—LANKY AME, GLASS, SCHOOLBOY HAIRCUT—WAS PART OF WHAT MA HIM SUCH A MABRE SPECTACLE. LIKE TED BUNDY BEFORE HIM AND JEFEY DAHMER AFTER, NILSEN DIDN’T F THE TYPIL HOMICIDAL-MANIAC PROFILE (HE HAD EVEN SERVED, FOR A TIME, AS A POLICE OFFICER). NOHELS, HE WAS AS LD-BLOOD AS THEY E, A RAGG SOCPATH WHO ADMTED TO KILLG 15 MEN DURG A FIVE-YEAR SPAN OM 1978-1983, AND WHO WAS ONLY UGHT WHEN AN ENGEER WAS LLED TO FIX A CLOGGED DRA AT HIS CRANLEY GARNS APARTMENT PLEX NORTH LONDON, AND DISVERED THAT THE E OF THE BACK-UP WAS AN ENORMO AMOUNT OF HUMAN FLH AND BONE. NEIGHBORS CLAIMED THAT THEY’D SEEN NILSEN NEAR THAT DRA AROUND MIDNIGHT THE PREV EVENG, AND WHEN HE RETURNED HOME OM HIS JOB AT THE LOL JOB CENTRE, HE LED VTIGATORS TO HIS FLAT, WHERE THE STENCH WAS FETID THANKS TO TWO GIANT GARBAGE BAGS THAT, HE NFSED, NTAED THE REMAS OF NUMERO VICTIMS.THE TAILS THAT SOON EMERGED WERE GRISLY. NILSEN’S MOD OPERANDI VOLVED PICKG UP MALE DRIFTERS AND “RENT BOYS” AND BRGG THEM BACK TO HIS HOME, WHERE HE’D KILL THEM. AT CRANLEY GARNS, THE DRA PIPE WAS A CENTRAL MEANS OF BODY DISPOSAL, WHEREAS AT HIS PRR RINCE AT 195 MELROSE AVENUE HE’D STASHED RPS BENEATH THE FLOORBOARDS—AND BURNED THEIR BODI BONFIR A REAR GARN—UNTIL HE RAN OUT OF SPACE AND HAD TO MOVE. THIS RMATN, AS WELL AS THE FACT THAT NILSEN WAS GAY AND OFTEN PREYED UPON HOMOSEXUAL MEN, BEME PRIME FODR FOR THE MEDIA, AND BBC RRPONNT BILL HATON IS ONE OF MULTIPLE TERVIEWE TO STATE, MEMORI OF A MURRER: THE NILSEN TAP, THAT HE GOT A SENSATNALISTIC THRILL OUT OF LEARNG ABOUT NILSEN’S HORRIFIC CRIM. NILSEN DON’T REALLY DISCS THE PARTICULARS OF HIS GOME PASTIME; HIS THOUGHTS ON THAT SUBJECT ARE NVEYED BY DIRECTOR HARTE VIA TRANSCRIBED MENTARY, AND POLICE AND URT RERDS PRENTED AS TYPEWRER TEXT. WH REGARD TO HIS NOTORIETY, HOWEVER, HE DO STATE THAT “A CLEARLY PREJUDICED PICTURE HAD BEEN ALLOWED TO FORM THE PUBLIC’S MD, EVEN BEFORE I WAS CHARGED WH ANY FENSE, GIVG THE MEDIA FULL LATU TO K THEIR PROPERTY. THIS ALLOWED THE IMAGE OF MONSTROSY TO TAKE FULL FLIGHT, TO WHET THE PROFABLE PUBLIC IMAGATN.” HE’S TECHNILLY RRECT THIS ASSSMENT. YET MEMORI OF A MURRER: THE NILSEN TAP MAK CLEAR THAT HIS FAMO REPUTATN WAS WELL-EARNED, AND LISTENG TO HIM ARROGANTLY PRATTLE ON THIS WAY PROV LS UNNERVG THAN SIMPLY FURIATG.NILSEN’S SIRE TO P THE BLAME FOR HIS NDUCT ON AN UNRG MOTHER AND A PEDOPHILIC GRANDFATHER MIGHT BE MORE CREDIBLE IF NOT FOR HIS WHOLALE DUPLICY AND UNTSTWORTHS, AND MEMORI OF A MURRER: THE NILSEN TAP WISELY DON’T BUY EVERYTHG THE KILLER PEDDL. THROUGH TERVIEWS WH VTIGATORS, JOURNALISTS, FAY MEMBERS OF HIS VICTIMS AND ONE MAN, MARTYN, WHO NARROWLY PED HIS CLUTCH, EXPLAS HOW NILSEN EXPLOED 1980S LONDON’S RAMPANT HOMOPHOBIA ORR TO GET AWAY WH HIS HEO CRIM. REGNIZG THAT NO ONE WOULD MISS HIS YOUTHFUL DOWN-AND-OUT TARGETS, AND THAT HOMOSEXUAL MEN PARTICULAR WOULD BE APT TO STAY SILENT OUT OF FEAR OF PUBLIC REPRISALS FOR THEIR SEXUAL ORIENTATN, NILSEN LIBERATELY WENT AFTER SOCIETY’S MOST HELPLS AND MARGALIZED, AND HIS ABILY TO REMA UNTECTED FOR AS LONG AS HE DID IS A POWERFUL DICTMENT OF THE CLIMATE OF THE ERA. “NILSEN LIBERATELY WENT AFTER SOCIETY’S MOST HELPLS AND MARGALIZED, AND HIS ABILY TO REMA UNTECTED FOR AS LONG AS HE DID IS A POWERFUL DICTMENT OF THE CLIMATE OF THE ERA.” DIRECTOR HARTE SKIMS OVER SOME OF THE NUTS AND BOLTS OF NILSEN’S SAGA, AND HE MOSTLY KEEPS NILSEN’S FACE OFF-SCREEN DURG MEMORI OF A MURRER: THE NILSEN TAP. THANKFULLY, THE LONGER HIS DOCUMENTARY PROCEEDS, THE LS ONE ALSO HAS TO HEAR OM THE KILLER. COMPRISED OF THE UAL ARRAY OF ARCHIVAL TV NEWS BROADSTS, TEXTUAL GRAPHICS, IMAG OF D TAP, AND TALKG-HEAD TERVIEWS—WHICH ARE NDUCTED DIMLY-L ROOMS WHERE THE PAT IS OFTEN PEELG OFF THE WALL, FOR CREEPY ATMOSPHERIC EFFECT—THE FILM ISN’T TERTED BREAKG NEW FORMAL GROUND. STILL, AS WH SO MANY OF S STREAMG-SERVICE TE-CRIME BRETHREN, S NVENTNAL ATHETIC APPROACH ALLOWS TO ACHIEVE S FUNCTNAL ENDS.BETTER IS THAT DIRECTOR HARTE GIV VOICE TO THOSE WHO WERE VICTIMIZED, BOTH DIRECTLY BY NILSEN AND DIRECTLY BY A BRISH CULTURE THAT TOLD THEM THEY HAD NO WORTH, THAT THEY SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF THEIR HERENT NATURE, AND THAT THEY EHER WEREN’T VICTIMS AT ALL OR GOT WHAT THEY SERVED. IN THOSE PASSAG, MEMORI OF A MURRER: THE NILSEN TAP BE A PORTRA OF AN EVIL DIVIDUAL AND A CRIQUE OF THE LARGER ENVIRONMENT THAT ALLOWED HIM TO FLOURISH. NICK SCHAGER

THE CHILLG CONFSNS OF A COP TURNED SERIAL KILLER OF GAY MENTHE FACE OF EVILHARRY DEMPSTER/DAILY EXPRS/HULTON ARCHIVE/GETTYTHE NETFLIX DOC “MEMORI OF A MURRER: THE NILSEN TAP” NTAS CREEPY TERVIEWS WH DENNIS NILSEN, A MADMAN WHO ADMTED TO KILLG 15 RENT BOYS OVER A FIVE-YEAR PERD.NICK SCHAGERENTERTAMENT CRICUPDATED AUG. 17, 2021 5:42AM EDT / PUBLISHED AUG. 17, 2021 5:01AM EDT KILLERS DON’T LIKE TO GET UGHT, BUT ONCE CTODY, THEY SURE DO LIKE TO TALK, AS EVINCED BY A RAFT OF TE-CRIME EFFORTS—CONVERSATNS WH A KILLER: THE TED BUNDY TAP, CONONTG A SERIAL KILLER, THE CONFSN KILLER, THE SONS OF SAM: A DCENT INTO DARKNS AND ELIZE MATSUNAGA: ONCE UPON A CRIME, AMONG OTHERS—CENTERED AROUND TAPED NVERSATNS WH NOTOR FIENDS. TO THAT LIST ONE N NOW ADD MEMORI OF A MURRER: THE NILSEN TAP, A NON-FICTN FILM WHOSE PRIMARY DRAW IS A RAFT OF PERSONAL RERDGS MA BY DENNIS NILSEN, THE STTISH MADMAN WHO TERRORIZED LONDON DURG THE 1980S, AND WHOSE KILLG SPREE, AND ATTEMPT TO AVOID RCERATN, WAS RECENTLY IMMORTALIZED BY A SUNDANCE NOW DRAMATIC SERI STARRG DAVID TENNANT.HELMED BY FIRST-TIME DIRECTOR MICHAEL HARTE, WHO’S PREVLY EDED DON’T F**K WH CATS: HUNTG AN INTER KILLER AS WELL AS THREE INTIL STRANGERS, MEMORI OF A MURRER: THE NILSEN TAP (AUG. 18, ON NETFLIX) BEGS WH NILSEN SLAMMG THE NOTN THAT HE LIBERATELY SOUGHT IMMORTALY, AS WAS CLAIMED BY A NEWSPAPER ARTICLE THAT SURMISED HE HAD A HUNGER FOR THE SPOTLIGHT OM THE HANNIBAL LECTER POSTER HANGG HIS JAIL CELL. NILSEN’S PROTTS, HOWEVER, DON’T JIBE WH THE MANY D TAP HE MA WHILE PRISON. INTEND TO FORM THE FOUNDATN OF HIS TOBGRAPHY (SELF AN ATTENTN-URTG VANY PROJECT), THE RERDGS FD THE MURRER EXPOUNDG ON HIS LIFE AND CIRCUMSTANC WH AN ELOQUENCE THAT REEKS OF AFFECTED SMUGNS—A QUALY THAT’S ALSO TE OF HIS EVERYMAN SCHTICK, AS IF ANYONE WOULD BUY FOR A SEND THAT, BEE OF HIS ORDARY APPEARANCE AND MEANOR, HE WASN’T A DANGERO PREDATOR. THERE’S NO NYG THAT NILSEN’S NONSCRIPT EXTERR—LANKY AME, GLASS, SCHOOLBOY HAIRCUT—WAS PART OF WHAT MA HIM SUCH A MABRE SPECTACLE. LIKE TED BUNDY BEFORE HIM AND JEFEY DAHMER AFTER, NILSEN DIDN’T F THE TYPIL HOMICIDAL-MANIAC PROFILE (HE HAD EVEN SERVED, FOR A TIME, AS A POLICE OFFICER). NOHELS, HE WAS AS LD-BLOOD AS THEY E, A RAGG SOCPATH WHO ADMTED TO KILLG 15 MEN DURG A FIVE-YEAR SPAN OM 1978-1983, AND WHO WAS ONLY UGHT WHEN AN ENGEER WAS LLED TO FIX A CLOGGED DRA AT HIS CRANLEY GARNS APARTMENT PLEX NORTH LONDON, AND DISVERED THAT THE E OF THE BACK-UP WAS AN ENORMO AMOUNT OF HUMAN FLH AND BONE. NEIGHBORS CLAIMED THAT THEY’D SEEN NILSEN NEAR THAT DRA AROUND MIDNIGHT THE PREV EVENG, AND WHEN HE RETURNED HOME OM HIS JOB AT THE LOL JOB CENTRE, HE LED VTIGATORS TO HIS FLAT, WHERE THE STENCH WAS FETID THANKS TO TWO GIANT GARBAGE BAGS THAT, HE NFSED, NTAED THE REMAS OF NUMERO VICTIMS.THE TAILS THAT SOON EMERGED WERE GRISLY. NILSEN’S MOD OPERANDI VOLVED PICKG UP MALE DRIFTERS AND “RENT BOYS” AND BRGG THEM BACK TO HIS HOME, WHERE HE’D KILL THEM. AT CRANLEY GARNS, THE DRA PIPE WAS A CENTRAL MEANS OF BODY DISPOSAL, WHEREAS AT HIS PRR RINCE AT 195 MELROSE AVENUE HE’D STASHED RPS BENEATH THE FLOORBOARDS—AND BURNED THEIR BODI BONFIR A REAR GARN—UNTIL HE RAN OUT OF SPACE AND HAD TO MOVE. THIS RMATN, AS WELL AS THE FACT THAT NILSEN WAS GAY AND OFTEN PREYED UPON HOMOSEXUAL MEN, BEME PRIME FODR FOR THE MEDIA, AND BBC RRPONNT BILL HATON IS ONE OF MULTIPLE TERVIEWE TO STATE, MEMORI OF A MURRER: THE NILSEN TAP, THAT HE GOT A SENSATNALISTIC THRILL OUT OF LEARNG ABOUT NILSEN’S HORRIFIC CRIM. NILSEN DON’T REALLY DISCS THE PARTICULARS OF HIS GOME PASTIME; HIS THOUGHTS ON THAT SUBJECT ARE NVEYED BY DIRECTOR HARTE VIA TRANSCRIBED MENTARY, AND POLICE AND URT RERDS PRENTED AS TYPEWRER TEXT. WH REGARD TO HIS NOTORIETY, HOWEVER, HE DO STATE THAT “A CLEARLY PREJUDICED PICTURE HAD BEEN ALLOWED TO FORM THE PUBLIC’S MD, EVEN BEFORE I WAS CHARGED WH ANY FENSE, GIVG THE MEDIA FULL LATU TO K THEIR PROPERTY. THIS ALLOWED THE IMAGE OF MONSTROSY TO TAKE FULL FLIGHT, TO WHET THE PROFABLE PUBLIC IMAGATN.” HE’S TECHNILLY RRECT THIS ASSSMENT. YET MEMORI OF A MURRER: THE NILSEN TAP MAK CLEAR THAT HIS FAMO REPUTATN WAS WELL-EARNED, AND LISTENG TO HIM ARROGANTLY PRATTLE ON THIS WAY PROV LS UNNERVG THAN SIMPLY FURIATG.NILSEN’S SIRE TO P THE BLAME FOR HIS NDUCT ON AN UNRG MOTHER AND A PEDOPHILIC GRANDFATHER MIGHT BE MORE CREDIBLE IF NOT FOR HIS WHOLALE DUPLICY AND UNTSTWORTHS, AND MEMORI OF A MURRER: THE NILSEN TAP WISELY DON’T BUY EVERYTHG THE KILLER PEDDL. THROUGH TERVIEWS WH VTIGATORS, JOURNALISTS, FAY MEMBERS OF HIS VICTIMS AND ONE MAN, MARTYN, WHO NARROWLY PED HIS CLUTCH, EXPLAS HOW NILSEN EXPLOED 1980S LONDON’S RAMPANT HOMOPHOBIA ORR TO GET AWAY WH HIS HEO CRIM. REGNIZG THAT NO ONE WOULD MISS HIS YOUTHFUL DOWN-AND-OUT TARGETS, AND THAT HOMOSEXUAL MEN PARTICULAR WOULD BE APT TO STAY SILENT OUT OF FEAR OF PUBLIC REPRISALS FOR THEIR SEXUAL ORIENTATN, NILSEN LIBERATELY WENT AFTER SOCIETY’S MOST HELPLS AND MARGALIZED, AND HIS ABILY TO REMA UNTECTED FOR AS LONG AS HE DID IS A POWERFUL DICTMENT OF THE CLIMATE OF THE ERA. “NILSEN LIBERATELY WENT AFTER SOCIETY’S MOST HELPLS AND MARGALIZED, AND HIS ABILY TO REMA UNTECTED FOR AS LONG AS HE DID IS A POWERFUL DICTMENT OF THE CLIMATE OF THE ERA.” DIRECTOR HARTE SKIMS OVER SOME OF THE NUTS AND BOLTS OF NILSEN’S SAGA, AND HE MOSTLY KEEPS NILSEN’S FACE OFF-SCREEN DURG MEMORI OF A MURRER: THE NILSEN TAP. THANKFULLY, THE LONGER HIS DOCUMENTARY PROCEEDS, THE LS ONE ALSO HAS TO HEAR OM THE KILLER. COMPRISED OF THE UAL ARRAY OF ARCHIVAL TV NEWS BROADSTS, TEXTUAL GRAPHICS, IMAG OF D TAP, AND TALKG-HEAD TERVIEWS—WHICH ARE NDUCTED DIMLY-L ROOMS WHERE THE PAT IS OFTEN PEELG OFF THE WALL, FOR CREEPY ATMOSPHERIC EFFECT—THE FILM ISN’T TERTED BREAKG NEW FORMAL GROUND. STILL, AS WH SO MANY OF S STREAMG-SERVICE TE-CRIME BRETHREN, S NVENTNAL ATHETIC APPROACH ALLOWS TO ACHIEVE S FUNCTNAL ENDS.BETTER IS THAT DIRECTOR HARTE GIV VOICE TO THOSE WHO WERE VICTIMIZED, BOTH DIRECTLY BY NILSEN AND DIRECTLY BY A BRISH CULTURE THAT TOLD THEM THEY HAD NO WORTH, THAT THEY SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF THEIR HERENT NATURE, AND THAT THEY EHER WEREN’T VICTIMS AT ALL OR GOT WHAT THEY SERVED. IN THOSE PASSAG, MEMORI OF A MURRER: THE NILSEN TAP BE A PORTRA OF AN EVIL DIVIDUAL AND A CRIQUE OF THE LARGER ENVIRONMENT THAT ALLOWED HIM TO FLOURISH. NICK SCHAGER

This rmatn, as well as the fact that Nilsen was gay and often preyed upon homosexual men, beme prime fodr for the media, and BBC rrponnt Bill Haton is one of multiple terviewe to state, Memori of a Murrer: The Nilsen Tap, that he got a sensatnalistic thrill out of learng about Nilsen’s horrific don’t really discs the particulars of his gome pastime; his thoughts on that subject are nveyed by director Harte via transcribed mentary, and police and urt rerds prented as typewrer text. Through terviews wh vtigators, journalists, fay members of his victims and one man, Martyn, who narrowly ped his clutch, explas how Nilsen exploed 1980s London’s rampant homophobia orr to get away wh his heo crim. Regnizg that no one would miss his youthful down-and-out targets, and that homosexual men particular would be apt to stay silent out of fear of public reprisals for their sexual orientatn, Nilsen liberately went after society’s most helpls and margalized, and his abily to rema untected for as long as he did is a powerful dictment of the climate of the era.

As officials Canada tried to track down a serial killer who targeted gay men Toronto’s Village, they were thrown off by a post on a nnibalism fantasy fom. Navaratnam had left a gay bar The Village — an LGBTQ-iendly enclave — wh an unknown man and hadn't been been seen sce.

26, Amendola / AP fileHernanz's mored sexualyThough there had been long-standg speculatn about Hernanz's sexualy, "Killer Insi" ntends that he was gay and stggled wh his sexualy for the majory of his life. " He said that Hernanz was "terrified" that his father would fd out that he was said he and Hernanz were nstantly worried that someone would "tch" them and that they were "nial" about their sexualy bee they were O'Callahan, a former Natnal Football League player for the Patrts and the Kansas Cy Chiefs who me out as gay after leavg the NFL, suggts that livg as a closeted gay profsnal athlete ed Hernanz ner turmoil.

Films like Portra of Jason and Tongu Untied, for stance, tell ntemporary viewers as much about the dividual stori about gay Black men prented on screen as about the muni (real and imaged) that their rpective filmmakers brought to bear on their fished films. Siarly, aptly-tled works like Before Stonewall: The Makg of a Gay and Lbian Communy and Forbidn Love: The Unashamed Stori of Lbian Liv offer not jt potent history lsons but snapshots of how Amerins were nceivg of their own muny-buildg the years followg the 1969 Stonewall rts. Synopsis: Filmmaker Arthur Brsan missns filmmakers throughout the untry to rerd lbian and gay pri paras and march June 1977....

Synopsis: On the eve of 1987's Send Natnal March on Washgton for Lbian and Gay Rights, survivg fai and iends of... Crics Consens: The Celluloid Closet tak a thought-provokg look at the s of omissn and misreprentatn endured by the gay muny mastream cema. Synopsis: This documentary highlights the historil ntexts that gays, lbians, bisexuals and transgenrs have occupied cema history, and shows the...

Crics Consens: Outrage walks a difficult moral and ethil le -- and not always succsfully -- but spe s flaws, 's a fascatg, provotive look at homosexualy Amerin polics. Synopsis: Osr-nomated documentarian Kirby Dick directs this shockg and passnate dictment of the clanste hypocrisy of many closeted homosexuals Washgton,... Crics Consens: We Were Here reviss the cris facg the gay muny the early 1980s -- and offers a powerful tribute to the spirg rolve shown at a time of turmoil.

Synopsis: Durg the 1970s, San Francis beme a safe haven for the gay and lbian muny, providg a place where one... Synopsis: Filmmaker Yoba Richen exam the reactn of the black muny to the bate over legalizg gay marriage....

Synopsis: In Uganda, openly gay David Kato and his fellow activists work to feat new legislatn their untry that would...