bars</tle><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_65hRV2Qwn" class="css-1fxvzwo" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_ILVvi2tqx" class="css-1wnday1" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC"><rect x="34" width="6" height="36" id="el_qw_T_tngXw"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_p_9Pm85Ac" class="css-fwki7z" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_WxG3R40yd" class="css-t3i5e6" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU"><rect x="22.67" width="6" height="36" id="el_lf9GrROk6j"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_kYNRGDfcw" class="css-t9te0w" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_3c3bzSjOJ" class="css-1r5375t" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw"><rect x="11.33" width="6" height="36" id="el_-iueO8klO0"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_y_fKcpSxn" class="css-qknaag" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_R6bNB6_Ys" class="css-1vd04" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC"><rect width="6" height="36" id="el_dS5TKNZZ5w"></rect></g></g></g></svg></div><div><div class="css-1t7yl1y">0:00<!-- -->/<!-- -->28:47</div><div class="css-og85jy">-<!-- -->28:47</div></div></div></div></hear><div class="css-uzyn7p"><div class="css-1vxyw"><p class="css-1nng8z9">transcript</p><h2 class="css-9wqu2x">The Wrers’ Revolt Agast A.I. Compani</h2><h4 class="css-qsd3hm">Tech bs have been g onle wrg to velop their chatbots — whout permissn.</h4><time dateTime="2023-07-18T10:00:12.000Z" class="css-1e605">2023-07-18T06:00:12-04:00</time></div><dl class="css-p98d0w"><dt class="css-xx7kwh"></dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">This transcript was created g speech regnn software. While has been reviewed by human transcribers, may nta errors. Please review the episo d before quotg om this transcript and email wh any qutns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">From “The New York Tim,” I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today, to refe their popular technology, new artificial telligence platforms, like ChatGPT, are gobblg up the work of thors, poets, edians and actors, whout their nsent. As my lleague, Sheera Frenkel, found, a rebelln is brewg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s Tuday, July 18.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sheera, is really nice to have you back. It has been far too long.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I agree. It’s great to be back here.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We are turng to you our ongog and very diligent efforts to unrstand this new era artificial telligence and the bate that is ragg over s like ChatGPT, which have put artificial telligence really at everyone’s fgertips.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And rrect me if I’m wrong, but really feels like this is shapg up as a clash between those who are really exced about the pabili of s like ChatGPT — you know, what n do next? This is so tertg. And this huge group of people who are jt eaked out about , right? And ’s gog too far, ’s too sry. And we’ve done a lot of episos about this. A recent one looked at stunts who love ChatGPT, bee n do their homework for them, and their teachers and profsors who are like, wa a mute, you’re basilly cheatg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And you have been reportg on the latt chapter of this clash between human and mache. So tell about that.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, what I’ve been foced on is really jt all the battl over what go to the AI mach. And what mak them powerful, what mak them able to imate human voice is all of the ntent that we’ve put onle over all the years. It’s the poems, and the blogs, and the photographs, and the illtratns that are then pied, and scraped, and fed to the AI mach. It’s what teach them to imate human behavr.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mm-hmm.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And the past six months, as this software has bee really powerful and very popular, more and more people have started askg qutns about whether they want their ntent fed to AI mach. And if they don’t want there, if there’s really anythg they n do about .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So tell who exactly the people are who are askg the qutns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They kd of fall to two groups. There are the people who are dog so bee ’s their livelihood. They have a pyright on their material, and they have some kd of legal protectn agast their work.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The other group are the hobbyists. They’re the people who are wrg stori for the fun of , that are jt creatg art bee they’re passnate about somethg. And they’re puttg stuff out to the ether of the ter. They love . They want to share wh the world. This is jt a te moment of human creativy.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But, you know, both of the groups are seeg ChatGPT, they’re seeg the AI pani valued at hundreds of lns of dollars, and they’re realizg that their creativy is makg someone else a lot of money. And they’re feelg exploed. They’re feelg like their creativy, their moment of spiratn is beg ed.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So let’s start wh this first group of creativ who sound like they are the big fish bee they have pyright protectn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. The are people like actors, animators, wrers, people who make their livelihood by uploadg what they’re dog to the ter. And so they’ve been really alarmed when a ChatGPT along and n produce art their style or n wre a paragraph their style.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (sarah silverman)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I go — I go to the hotel. Super fancy hotel —</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Take, for stance, Sarah Silverman.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (sarah silverman)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— and I go to check . Oh, and the lady at the ont sk regnized me. And she was like, oh, my god, I love you. You are my top four all time favore edians.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">She is a edian, an actor, a wrer, who has honed an credibly distctive style over s of workg.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (sarah silverman)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I was like, you know that I know that means I’m fourth, right?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Not walkg away om this like, ooh, maybe I’m send, you know? No.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And if you go to ChatGPT and say, “Tell me a joke the style of Sarah Silverman”— which is somethg I tried out — really gets her spot on. And she argu that not only has read her jok and read her other onle edy, but that ’s even read this book that she wrote “Betwetter,” which has been upload onle and exists onle versns.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">She appears pretty nvced that ’s sentially learned who she is and what her edic style is. It n mimic her to the gree that you thk is her wrg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I’m gusg ChatGPT likely did that whout askg her permissn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. There is no permissns beg asked here bee there are sentially — image the giant mach that are crawlg the ter at all tim. And any data they e across, they llect. They scrape . They don’t know what they’re dog. They’re nvertg to numbers. It’s basilly bee math the systems. And so anythg onle is nstantly beg hoovered up by the mach and fed to AI systems.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so for a creative profsnal like Sarah Silverman, that feels credibly threateng terms of their livelihood, their abily to make a livg off of beg an artist wh an pennt voice that’s been honed over s. If a mache n do that, why would you need to pay Sarah Silverman to e and wre your script or pen a edy special?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mm-hmm. But how n you be so sure that ChatGPT is really stealg om you if you’re someone like Sarah Silverman, or if you’re anybody, really, whose work has been upload by ChatGPT? Bee my gus is that this gets a ltle b sticky. How much of is jt guswork and how much of is really beg rived om sentially borrowed or stolen material?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Defely. I mean, well, to beg wh, there are the reposori where you n go and check and see if your work has been scraped. A lot of artists do this. A lot of wrers do . And they’ll see there that your name will appear or your piece of art will appear. And so for someone like Sarah Silverman, she n go and see, OK, right, my book has been scraped.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But more specifilly, ’s really jt playg wh this, and ttg out for yourself and toyg wh . I was cur as I was reportg this story, so I went onle and I typed my name. And I said, “Can you wre a paragraph about the danger of onle extremism the voice of Sheera Frenkel?”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Which is the subject you ver, of urse —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— over and over and over aga for “The Tim.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Y, exactly. And I’ve wrten books. I’ve been wrg about for over a . It’s out there. My material is out there. And when I tell you that even after knowg about AI for a year, even after verg this topic for a year, I was creeped out at how close got my voice. I uld have easily wrten this sentence.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Expla that. I mean, I’m not on ChatGPT right now, so I n’t replite the search. But what happened when you said, you know, “Wre a paragraph about the subject I know bt, Sheera Frenkel,” and sp out the rults. What about felt so distctively Sheera Frenkel-que?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I will read to you. So wr this one openg sentence, which is “Onle platforms once hailed as bastns of ee exprsn have bee breedg grounds for hate, radilizatn, and the propagatn of dangero iologi.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That exprsn, “the bastns of ee exprsn,” I’ve ed that. I googled . I ed that an article ls than a year ago and aga an article three years ago. I didn’t even realize that that was a phrase or a turn of phrase that I often ed until ChatGPT repeated back to me.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. It’s kd of a distctive set of words you’re sayg that you turn to. And jt borrowed om you replitg your work.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, knew my bra better than I did. I didn’t realize that that was phrasg I equently ed.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">[lghs]</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I had to go to “The New York Tim” archiv to figure out, oh, yeah, ’s right, I do e that. And, oh, my god, I probably ed too often bee this mache has learned about me.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. And suffice to say, you were not, like Sarah Silverman, nsulted about your work beg scraped by ChatGPT.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Nope. We were never nsulted. And no one at “The New York Tim” was nsulted.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Got . So Sarah Silverman did not like that experience. You scribed as a ltle b eerie. I’m wonrg if ’s a touch flatterg to have ChatGPT borrow your stuff?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Or if you worry about the long-term enomic nsequenc of all, which is to say that someday ChatGPT might be able to replite your journalism so brilliantly, that maybe “The Tim” don’t need you on the beat anymore.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, you know, I’ve actually spent so much time thkg about this. And there’s a part of me that was thkg, oh, god, kd of would be nice when I was done wh reportg to plug my not to a mache and have — there are days where would be nice to have a mache wre my article for me.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But no, no, I thought about more, and then I was like, yeah, n imate what I’ve already done. But the whole pot of news is that what we’re brgg you is h and based on new reportg. So the nclns we’re drawg for rears are nstantly changg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And AI n’t do that. It n only repeat and regurgate what’s already been given to , what’s already the system. And so whatever answer giv you might be what Sheera Frenkel thought about somethg two years ago or five years ago. But won’t be what the newt ia is or the ht reportg has brought rears.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. It might jt keep tellg the world that you thk somethg’s a bastn of ee exprsn when you thk ’s a bastn of not ee exprsn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">[lghs]</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">If ’s bee a bastn of hate speech and extremism.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK, so what n creativ do about, sentially, this theft, right? What n the Sheera Frenkels and the Sarah Silvermans of the world do, and what are they dog about this problem?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So the creativ wh the pyright, the creativ wh the legal protectn of a pyright n file lawsus. And that’s exactly what we’re seeg happen. There’s been nearly a dozen lawsus that have been filed agast AI pani by everybody om book publishers to dividuals who have pyright protectns.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And one of them was Sarah Silverman, who got together wh another two thors to sue several AI pani, cludg Meta, which is the parent pany of Facebook, and OpenAI, which is the parent pany of ChatGPT, to say that their work was illegally scraped, and download, and upload to the AI systems.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And Sheera, what do legal experts thk are the chanc that this kd of a lawsu om a Sarah Silverman will prevail agast a pany like ChatGPT?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, you know, this is all brand new. It’s brand new se law. But they know they have to tablish some kd of law or precent gog forward bee this is material wh a pyright. For a lot of artists, books they wrote 10 years ago or 15 years ago, that’s gog to ntue to make them money throughout their liv.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And y, they’re evolvg nstantly as artists. They want to thk about their material gog forward. They don’t want ChatGPT to wre their jok for them gog forward. But they also want to be paid for the books that have already been published and are already out there.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so is the feelg that old school pyright law will provi someone like Sarah Silverman wh the legal protectns that she’s seekg?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, the legal experts seem credibly hopeful that there is some kd of pyright protectn here, and that, sentially, some kd of fancial damag will be award, and that some kd of moary value will be placed on the very strong pyright protectns that creative profsnals get.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The problem is that even if they get that money, even if Meta or OpenAI are forced to pay some kd of damag to Sarah Silverman, the ntent, the data, n never be retrieved. It’s out there. It’s bee numbers and on and zeros fed to a mache. There’s no way to go to , to that mache, and get that data back out. Once ’s , ’s forever.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so ultimately, even if they do get that fancial reward through the urt system, and they get the pyright protectn to their material affirmed by the urts, their data is gone. Their data is there forever.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">In other words, the horse is out of the stable. I assume that’s te, Sheera, for , for “The Tim,” for the work of people like you. We n’t retrieve your journalism back om a ChatGPT. So is “The Tim,” like Sarah Silverman, thkg of sug the AI pani?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So “The New York Tim,” to the bt of our knowledge, is not lookg at a lawsu. What we’ve seen “The New York Tim” and other news publishers do is start to thk about how to start chargg for this data gog forward. I mean, “The New York Tim” is creatg tons of ntent every sgle day that the mach want to stay up to date.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so they’re really tryg to figure out if there’s some kd of fancial arrangement that n be put to place where the AI pani pay . And ’s not jt news publishers. Webs, like Redd, they’re lookg at licensg their data as well. They’re sayg, this data is herently valuable and we want you to pay for .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But look, that’s gog to take a long time for them to e to an agreement. This is a brand new mol. This is a brand new technology. And the meantime, the data is still beg scraped. In the meantime, the systems have all the articl that have already been published. They probably are beg updated on new articl as they e out. And so all this material is still beg fed to the mach as the talks are ongog.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. And will be for some time. So you’re sayg the pyright protected creators, who would seem to have the strongt posn this equatn, are not really mountg that forceful a phback spe the anger that you’re scribg here.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. I mean, they are g the urts. They are g the legal system. But as we know, that’s slow. Wag for the urts to take actn, wag for lawyers to hammer out a fancial agreement between a massive news anizatn and an AI pany is a slow procs.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And what’s tertg for me is that this other group of people that I mentned, those that don’t have a pyright protectn, the hobbyists, the enthiasts, the people that are postg to the ter for the fun of , they’re the on that are leadg the most creative rebelln or revolt agast AI.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be right back.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Sheera, tell more about this send group of creators who are fightg back agast AI platforms — the hobbyists and amatrs, as you’ve scribed them, who lack the legal pyright protectns of people like you and Sarah Silverman.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So actually a group I spent a lot of time terviewg and thkg about was fan fictn wrers. And for anyone who’s not faiar — bee before I reported this story, I’d never actually read any fanfic, there are —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Fanfic? Now you’re an thory.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m now ep the fandoms. The are people who watch a movie like “Star Wars” and love , but walk away om thkg, what would happen if the ma characters at the end, Kylo Ren and Rey didn’t die? What if they fell love and got married? And I’m really sorry if I’m havg movie spoilers my answers here.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">What would happen if “Buffy the Vampire Slayer,” two of the vampir met high school and had a gay romance? I mean, they take the popular movi and TV shows, and they let their imagatns roam. And they publish the credible — I mean, book-length piec of ntent — about their favore movi and TV shows.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And, you know, this is not stuff they have any kd of pyright to. If anythg, they’re borrowg om ias and characters that are already out there. But they’re dog for the love of those characters and the storyl that they want to explore their own wrg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And how did wrers of fanfictn disver that their work was beg sucked up by platforms like ChatGPT?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So they actually disvered this a really, really funny way, which is that fan fictn, you create your own characters. And some of them have nam like Bucky, which is a batn of several characters om “Buffy the Vampire Slayer.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. [LAUGHS]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so they go to ChatGPT and they type , “Wre me a story about Bucky fallg love wh a vampire. Wre me a story about Bucky on a summer day eatg a popsicle.” And ChatGPT knew who that character was wh great specificy.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Another example that was actually given to me — and this was the most outrageo example as far as the fanfictn wrers were ncerned — is that there’s this sexual trope, lled the omegaverse, which fan fictn wrers really like to explore. And ’s very, very specific to fanfictn. And ChatGPT knew all about .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You’re not gog to tell any more about ?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m very nfed about myself.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">[lghs]</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I’m pretty new to fanfictn. From what I’ve read, there’s like tentacl volved. And ’s —</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">— I don’t thk ’s appropriate for the podst.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sure, sure, sure, sure.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But the pot is there’s no reason an AI mache would know about unls had read and gted their fanfictn wrg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Why would ChatGPT know anythg about this unls was scrapg fanfictn? But Sheera, aren’t the fanfictn wrers postg stuff that’s fair game, right? They don’t have pyright.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, they know they don’t have pyright protectns. But they still feel really, you know, wound. They’re afonted at the ia that the mach have scraped what is, for them, very much a labor of love.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Some of the fan fictn wrers I spoke to had spent s dog this. They had done as a form of therapy. They had done as an act of love towards the movi and televisn shows that they felt creatively spired by. And they felt like the mach are sentially attackg the very spir of human creativy that they had been prolific about onle.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hmm. Right. This is not necsarily their full time job. This is not how they make money. But you’re sayg taps to, some ways, who they are. It’s part of their inty. And so, on a moral level, they n’t tolerate ChatGPT jt stealg .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Many of them have day jobs where they make money. But their love, their passn is gog to this fan fictn. And they’ve tablished the really tertg ternal l on the foms where they post, where if one person imat another or borrows om another whout attributn, ’s nsired outrageo. They are booted om the muny. They are exmunited.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">They really have a lot of honor how they operate onle. And they want that to be rpected by the mach. And so li of that, they’ve had to get really, really creative about how they rebel or how they revolt agast the AI systems.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And how creative have they gotten? What are they dog?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. So I mean, for stance, one of the first protts they lnched is they got together and started feedg jt absolute nonsense to ChatGPT. They figured if you’re gog to scrape our material, we’re gog to give you total irreverent nonsense to nfe you so you don’t unrstand our characters, you don’t unrstand our storyle, and you nnot mimic what we do.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So they n’t sue, but they n gum up the works. They n basilly jt shove sticks and ston to this mache and try to grd out the gears.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly. I mean, they had to thk creatively. And so they thought, if you want our material, here’s our material. We’re gog to give you nonsense.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And do that tactic work?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, n if they do enough of . And they seem pretty mted and passnate about dog this. But they haven’t stopped there. A lot of them have also started makg their ntent private or removg om the web entirely. And so their thkg is, you know, until now they’ve shared all this eely, but if the mach are gog to e and scrape what they do, they’re gog to start lockg down.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK. Both of the techniqu, though, would seem to be pretty unterproductive if you’re the bs of creatg fan fictn. The first one jt creat a bunch of gibberish, which no one wants to read if you like fan fictn. The send one would lim who n view the fan fictn you wre. So aren’t the rebellns agast plac like ChatGPT jt hurtg the fan fictn muny? Aren’t they jt shootg themselv the foot?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, to a certa gree. And a lot of them say they kd of feel like they are, the short-term, dog somethg that go agast the entire spir of fan fictn. But they feel helpls. And so I thk, at this pot, they’re jt throwg darts at the wall to see what sticks and what works.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">A lot of them have been the muni for a long time, and so their thkg is, well, I might only get to share my wrg wh a uple dozen people, stead of a uple thoand, but at least the mach won’t get me.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So don’t really feel like eher of the two groups, Sheera, that we’ve been talkg about here — the group wh pyright protectns and the amatrs who don’t have pyright protectns — neher of them seem to be much of a match for the AI platforms and stoppg them om scrapg their work.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So that mak me thk that if you’re one of the wrers, the better solutn would be for the US ernment to step wh some simple regulatn that says, ChatGPT, for example, you n’t upload this work unls you pay for . And I know the ernment is havg the nversatns. There have been lots of ngrsnal heargs. So is that a possibily? The ernment says, no uploadg unls you pay the wrers and the creators.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, ’s te that the US ernment is havg talks wh all of the AI pani. But we have to remember that we’re still wag for the US ernment to take actn and e up wh some kd of regulatn about social media that’s been around for over a .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mhm.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The US ernment is very, very slow-actg. And the vast majory of members of Congrs are still wrappg their head around how this technology even works. And so whatever they do is years ahead. And ’s gog to be tempered by the fact that they don’t want to hold back the pani too much.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mhm. Expla that.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The US ernment se self an arms race, at the moment, agast Cha when to AI. Both Cha and the Uned Stat have a lot of scientists that are vted this. They have a lot of tert beg the world lears artificial telligence.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so they know that every b of regulatn they put place potentially holds back those US pani, as opposed to Cha, where there’s very ltle regulatn on data and where there’s a ton of data onle that the Che ernment n easily accs and even give to Che AI pani if they want to speed ahead what’s nsired the AI arms race between the US and Cha.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So the US ernment might have an tert actually sidg wh the AI platforms over the creators bee mak more petive agast our rivals.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. I mean, they don’t want to hamper US AI pani to the pot where they fall behd Cha.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hmm. In which se, feels like the only way for creative typ and for publishg platforms, like “The Tim,” to fight back is to fight back really on their own, for the next however many years. And I’m cur, Sheera, if, your reportg, you thk the plats of the Sarah Silvermans and the publishg platforms is actually gog to make the general public sympathetic and lead to a larger sle phback agast the ChatGPT-like platforms, or if the realy is jt that people like the thgs, they’re exced about them, and that’s gog to overri any of the worri that we’re talkg about.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, look, right now the people that are angry are the people that n see that their work has been pied or scraped and regurgated. It’s people who are already seeg that the mach have gted their work and n py their voic a really realistic way. And we don’t know what’s gog to happen gog forward.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, pani like Google and Facebook are still cidg on how they’re gog to tra their AI. And what happens if Facebook’s AI cis to tra on your data, and n fd posts that you wrote 10 years ago when you were llege and sound jt like you, or if Google cis to read your email and your Google docs, and n say, hey, this is what Michael sounds like when he’s planng a vatn wh his fay? Is the creeps factor then that much more that all of feel like our souls are beg replited by mach?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. And do that mean that sudnly we are all the fan fictn wrer? We are all Sarah Silverman. We are all sudnly seeg the platforms slowly suckg a versn of out and and givg to the world a way that is very weird.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Do bee a “Black Mirror” episo? It’s unclear. But uld be that the AI systems are so extremely eful and beneficial for our liv that none of re. Bee at one pot, people were really mad about Facebook suckg up their data and servg them ads and Google dog the same. And then we ultimately cid that they provid such a eful service that was OK wh that they sucked up our data. And we’re really jt the begng of this technology. And so we don’t know yet.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">You know, one of the fanfic wrers I spoke to actually put a really lovely way that — she was the middle of wrg this new piece of fictn, and happened to be about AI robots vers humans. And she stopped midway through wrg bee she didn’t want to post onle and feed more to the mache.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But she said that where she’s stuck and the thought she’s really stuck on is that this piece of fictn she was wrg, not every AI robot was bad. Some of them were helpful. Some of them were nice. Some of them were good. And some of them were evil. And was really about how the rporatns behd those robots e them that cid whether they were good or evil.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so she felt like she jt had so many qutns about the pani nng the AI, and how they’re g the data, and how they’re gog to license , and what value is gog to be — all the qutns are swirlg around her head. And ’s like, are the robots good or bad? We don’t know yet, and so we don’t feel fortable wh them.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so did she end up postg any of the story onle?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, she has not posted yet. I thk she still has too many qutns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, Sheera, thank you very much. We appreciate .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thank you for havg me. [MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be right back.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Here’s what else you need to know today — on Monday, Rsia said would end an agreement that had allowed Ukrae to export lns of tons of gra to the rt of the world, threateng global food pric and the food supply dozens of untri that rely on the gra.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The year-old agreement, known as the “Black Sea Gra Iniative,” was a succsful attempt to lim the global repercsns of Rsia’s war on Ukrae. But Rsia has repeatedly plaed that the agreement favored Ukrae over s own people.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg 1</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I eply regret the cisn by the Rsian Feratn to termate the implementatn of the “Black Sea Iniative.”</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Durg a news nference, the head of the Uned Natns said that Rsia’s cisn would e unnecsary sufferg across the world.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg 1</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today’s cisn by the Rsian Feratn will strike a blow to people need everywhere.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And smoke om wildfir Canada is returng to the US this week. By Monday afternoon, was affectg about 72 ln Amerins across 29 stat, om the Dakotas to New York. Nearly 900 wildfir are burng across Canada. Of those, the Canadian ernment says that more than 500 of them are burng out of s ntrol.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today’s episo was produced by Clare Toeniskoetter, Rob Szypko and Mooj Zadie. It was eded by Devon Taylor wh help om Lisa Chow, ntas origal mic by Elisheba Ittoop, and was engeered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme mic is by Jim Bnberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonrly.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s for “The Daily.” I’m Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd></dl></div></div></div></div><div style="posn:absolute;width:0;height:0;visibily:hidn;display:none"></div><hear class="css-1vwfk9f" data-breakpot=""><div style="width:100%" data-ttid="flt-layout"><div style="background-image:url()" class="css-18qqsen e1llfg0"><div class="css-1hmsypo e1llfg2"><div class="css-131hid3 e1llfg3"><div class="css-1uhi299 e1llfg1"></div><div class="css-1tloyb6"><div class="css-1kltdsh ehra6vc0"><a href=" class="css-2ne0py"><span class="css-1f76qa2"><img alt="The Daily logo" src="><span>The Daily</span></span></a><span class="css-1lhttlg ehra6vc1"><span class="css-sj5ozi ehra6vc2">Subscribe:</span><ul class="css-hx5n"><li><a href=" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Apple Podsts</a></li><li><a href=" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Google Podsts</a></li></ul></span></div></div><div class="css-1r0dpua e1llfg4"><div class="css-1gu519p edye5kn0"><div><h1 class="css-1xbyom1 edye5kn2">The Wrers’ Revolt Agast A.I. 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gay military love

Milary service is mandatory Turkey, and s policy on homosexuals servg the ary is that Turkey's armed forc nsir gays eligible to serve. From Istanbul, Matthew Bnwasser reports on Turkey's policy of 'will ask, mt tell.'

Contents:

TELL: AN INTIMATE HISTORY OF GAY MEN THE MILARY

As "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" to an end, we sent Chris Heath to terview dozens of gay servicemen om the past and prent to fd out what life was really like as Ameri's ary stggled wh s last great inty crisis * gay military love *

"I remember beg the Castro, " says John Forrett (army rerve, 1987–99), "and watchg the TV at a bar wh some iends, watchg Al Gore and Bill Clton swearg that if they beme the tag team for Ameri they were gog to get rid of the harassment of gays and lbians servg the ary. And therefore few people realized that the first Amerin serly wound the vasn of Iraq durg the send Gulf war was a gay Alva signed up, before "Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, " he had to lie on his paperwork. And when, 2006, the battl over "Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell" the ary and gay marriage the wir muny were simmerg, Alva’s boyiend at the time poted out to him that he did have some notoriety that might be of e.

In the shadow of "Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, " whenever gay servicemen did face any kd of homophobic harassment, they were powerls to draw attentn to whout potentially triggerg the end of their ary reer.

Of a number of latg events—Rocha was also force-fed dog food and locked to a sh-filled dog kennel—the most abive and explicly homophobic was when he was orred by his manr to act a dog-trag scenar, repeated over and over so that every dog the un uld be n through . Anyone who gets off thkg that ’Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ unr the Bh admistratn anyone uld have gone and said, ’Hey, I’m beg antagonized unr the prciple that I might be gay’ and feel safe is absurd. Life Seventy Years Ago as a Gay Serviceman: World War IIIt was only really around the Send World War that ary discrimatn beme dified and anized, and that the foc moved om simply sanctns agast homosexual acts to an attempt to intify and weed out homosexual tennci—though, as would be seen aga and aga, when fightg bodi were need badly enough, such ncerns would often evaporate.

BT GAY MILARY

The right to a ary burial for gay spo was guaranteed natnwi wh the legalizatn of same-sex marriage 2015, but only a handful of known same-sex ary upl are buried across US natnal cemeteri. For most, the right to such an honor has been hard won. * gay military love *

"JM: "I found out right after the war that if someone were discharged as homosexual, a notice of that fact was sent home to their lol draft board, so that their whole muny would e to know that they were gay.

MY BIG GAY AIR FORCE LIFE

Books shelved as gay-ary-romance: Skip Trace by Jenn Burke, General Misnduct by L.A. Wt, A Reason To Stay by R.J. Stt, A Rg and a Promise by... * gay military love *

And this led directly to the formatn of gay ghettos the major ci, where people who uldn’t go home, bee their sexualy had been revealed by the army, had to move to Greenwich Village or the San Francis Castro.

Manzella operated fully wh the vtigatn; when he was asked for evince that he wasn’t jt claimg to be gay orr to trigger a discharge, he even supplied photos, and footage of him and his boyiend passnately kissg on a road trip.

"While he was ployed, the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, a mpaigng group who had been givg him guidance, told him that 60 Mut wanted to do a piece about an openly gay man servg a bat zone, persuadg him that would give a voice to the "65, 000 men and women the ary" who weren’t able to live as openly as he was. I was nfed until beme clear that, partly by chance and partly by a cha of personal remendatns over the years, this trailer park had bee some kd of gay-veteran hot spot: There are eight or ten others livg here, and more nearby. ’ The CO looked at my iend and said, ’If somebody wants to get off my ship for beg gay, they have to e to me wh two Polaroids, both of them they have to be clearly suckg ck, and I want to be able to see their face.

NEW WWI MOVIE TO FEATURE A GAY LOVE STORY

The Uned Stat ary stggled wh s stance on gay service members for s prr to the signg of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” 1993 by former Print Bill Clton., * gay military love *

One Man’s Secret Too ManyIt’s temptg to see gay servicemen’s entire ary existence through the prism of this sgle issue—the mpaigner, the opprsed, the stoic endurer—and as the totaly of who they are.

In June 1998, Richard Merrt (Mar, 1985–98) appeared on the ver of The New York Tim Magaze, uniform but wh his face obscured, and si the story scribed what life was actually like for someone gay servg the ary.

’" The way he sometim jtified to himself what he did was that was a rponse to the ary’s homophobia, albe an extreme one: "I would feel very angry at the policy, and beme ’Well, fuck you, Mare Corps—I’m gog to do this and be as gay as I want to be for the world to see.

IN WWII, TWO GAY SOLDIERS’ FORBIDN ROMANCE LIV ON IN THEIR LOVE LETTERS

The tumultuo story of 2 gay soldiers battlg for love and eedom before, durg & after Don't Ask Don't Tell. gay soldier ary transgenr gay marriage. Coverg Parkland for Vany Fair. * gay military love *

"Navy #3: "Nobody joed up to be ’the un gay guy, ’ but that’s who you’re gog to be, and I thk ’s cumbent on who are senr to basilly intify ourselv so that younger kids n look and say, ’Hey, is okay. Some likely post-repeal plitns: ristant pockets of homophobia the ary; the ntued right to voice certa homophobic sentiments unr, for stance, the eedom of relig exprsn; possible aternizatn charg if gay servicemen of different ranks ntue to associate wh each other as they often did the silent years; growg disquiet at the absence of partner rights equivalent to those for servicemen’s wiv.

The right to a ary burial for gay spo was guaranteed natnwi wh the legalizatn of same-sex marriage 2015, but only a handful of known same-sex ary upl are buried across the 172 natnal cemeteri the US – grounds rerved chiefly for ary members and selected fay. "Homoerotic" is not nearly sufficient enough of a word to scribe , as Dave Holm wrote for Esquire prr to the summer release of the sequel "Top Gun: Maverick, " if for no other reason than nnot merely a suggtn of homosexual sire, whereas Holm argu the tentn is blatant.

“No longer will our untry be nied the service of thoands of patrtic Amerins who were forced to leave the ary – regardls of their skills, no matter their bravery or their zeal, no matter their years of exemplary performance – bee they happen to be gay, ” said former Print Barack Obama.

FOR GAY UPL HOPG FOR A ARY BURIAL, THE FIGHT FOR LOVE DON’T END WH ATH

Rishi Sunak has apologised on behalf of the Government for the 'horrific' historic treatment of LGBTQ+ people servg the ary. Servg personnel spected of beg gay, lbian, bisexual or... * gay military love *

“That is why I say to all Amerins, gay or straight, who want nothg more than to fend this untry uniform: Your untry needs you, your untry wants you, and we will be honored to wele you to the ranks of the ft ary the world has ever known, ” stated Obama. In rponse, and apparently to monstrate his petency his assigned posn, the nonmissned officer had taken upon himself to approach the person he nsired cled toward mtg a siar offense the future: me, the only openly gay soldier my un.

Together we approached our un’s learship, where she sisted that the ments had stemmed om the reprentative’s own homophobic feelgs and remend that he be reprimand and removed om his posn as the un’s sexual harassment watchdog. But by then was hard to ignore the anxiety I felt durg required social activi — “mandatory fun, ” as ’s lled the ary — or the tensn om my fellow moment I cid to bee a soldier and the moment I chose to live openly as a gay man occurred so closely time that ’s hard to remember which me first.

It was still four months before the repeal of “don’t ask, don’t tell, ” a double-edged policy prohibg askg any service member about his or her sexualy while enforcg a ban on openly gay service members. Every memory evok an emotn: rage that I had to serve wh a nstant sense of fear of my fellow soldiers; paralyzg sadns for those who endured ab worse than I n know; and, the worst, guilt over the service members — gay or straight or transgenr — who died while servg the ary while my body is still whole.

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After beg oted om the U.S. ary for beg gay, she beme an early fighter for gay rights and a proment figure the nascent L.G.B.T.Q. rights movement. * gay military love *

Promisg the ernment would implement the “vast majory” of Etherton’s remendatns, Wallace said he would fully update the Commons a formal bate about the issue after the about pensatn, Wallace said he hoped to fd “an elegant solutn that match the need and the requirements of those dividuals”, promisg to set this out after Kelly Holm, who served the army and me out as gay last year, was among mpaigners who weled the apology.

Image source, Emma RileyImage ptn, Rad operator Emma Riley was discharged om the Navy for beg a lbian the 1990sRishi Sunak has apologised for the historil treatment of LGBT veterans who were sacked or forced out of the ary for beg gay.The PM lled the ban an "appallg failure" of the Brish state.It was illegal to be gay the Brish ary until 2000 - wh thoands of veterans thought to be affected.A report to their treatment remend they be given a fancial reward and that the PM publicly apologise.Addrsg MPs, the prime mister said: "Many endured the most horrific sexual abe and vlence, homophobic bullyg and harassment all while bravely servg this untry."The LGBT Veterans Inpennt Review, led by Bra's first openly gay judge Lord Etherton, began last year and heard about the experienc of 1,145 veterans between 1967 to 2000.Homosexualy was crimalised the UK 1967 but a ban ntued the armed forc.

Acrdg to the report, the Mistry of Defence said at the time that jtifitn for the policy clud "matenance of operatnal effectivens and efficiency" - but the report said there had been an "prehensible policy of homophobic bigotry" the armed forc. It heard shockg acunts of homophobia, bullyg, blackmail, sexual asslts, "disgraceful" medil examatns, and nversn therapy.It mak 49 remendatns to the ernment cludg:Affected veterans to be given an "appropriate fancial reward" pped at £50m overallThe rtoratn of medals that had to be hand back on dismissal or dischargeThe clarifitn of pensn rights The prentatn of a special veterans' badgeThe ernment said would rpond full after summer recs.Some of the veterans affected watched the PM's public apology.One of them, Emma Riley, 51, was a Royal Navy rad operator for three years before she was arrted and discharged for beg a lbian after tellg a lleague her sexualy the early 1990s.She told BBC News she weled the report, and hoped would be put to place "swiftly.""Havg our history, experienc and enormo pa acknowledged and apologised for, hearg that the armed servic and ernment that perpetuated stutnal bullyg will now be held acuntable to fally support LBGT+ veterans, is a relief," she said.Veterans have prevly told the BBC how their liv were vastated by the ban.

I THOUGHT I COULD SERVE AS AN OPENLY GAY MAN THE ARMY. THEN CAME THE DEATH THREATS.

U.K. Prime Mister Rishi Sunak has apologized for the treatment of gay veterans by sayg that a prev ban on LGBTQ+ people servg the U.K. ary was “an appallg failure of the Brish state.” * gay military love *

Ken Wright, 62, served the Royal Air Force Police before losg his job when his boss found out he was gay.He scribed how losg his posn the ary had left him feelg as though "his untry didn't want him."He add: "After beg nied the opportuny to fend one's untry, beg told you aren't good enough to wear the uniform, tak huge ner strength to feel renciled all of a sudn today."Carryg that sult for 35 years srs you for life."Olympian Dame Kelly Holm, who served the army and me out as gay last year, lled the publitn of the report a "historic moment", while Cathere Dixon, a former army officer who is now vice chair at Stonewall, said was "an important step towards jtice" for those whose ary reers were "ed" bee of their sexualy.

Many still have a crimal rerd to this day.It also tails how some veterans faced a plete loss of e, while others were emed eligible to claim their pensn bee of their dismissal.The report more than 20 years after four servicemen and women, who were sacked for beg gay, won a se the European Court of Human Rights and overturned the ban.The armed forc chary Royal Brish Legn lled on the ernment to accept the report's remendatns full.The chary's director general Charl Byrne weled both the report and Mr Sunak's "landmark apology", sayg many people who had dited their liv to the untry were "forced or felt prsured to leave the armed forc, and this mistreatment stroyed or shortened their reer".

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The Nazi regime rried out a mpaign agast male homosexualy and persecuted gay men between 1933 and 1945. * gay military love *

Image source, Emma RileyImage ptn, Rad operator Emma Riley was discharged om the Navy for beg a lbian the 1990sRishi Sunak has apologised for the historil treatment of LGBT veterans who were sacked or forced out of the ary for beg PM lled the ban an "appallg failure" of the Brish was illegal to be gay the Brish ary until 2000 - wh thoands of veterans thought to be affected. It heard shockg acunts of homophobia, bullyg, blackmail, sexual asslts, "disgraceful" medil examatns, and nversn mak 49 remendatns to the ernment cludg:Affected veterans to be given an "appropriate fancial reward" pped at £50m overallThe rtoratn of medals that had to be hand back on dismissal or dischargeThe clarifitn of pensn rights The prentatn of a special veterans' badgeThe ernment said would rpond full after summer of the veterans affected watched the PM's public of them, Emma Riley, 51, was a Royal Navy rad operator for three years before she was arrted and discharged for beg a lbian after tellg a lleague her sexualy the early told BBC News she weled the report, and hoped would be put to place "swiftly.

'PASSAG' DIRECTOR NOUNC 'DANGERO' NC-17 RATG ON A FILM PICTG A GAY LOVE STORY

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"Olympian Dame Kelly Holm, who served the army and me out as gay last year, lled the publitn of the report a "historic moment", while Cathere Dixon, a former army officer who is now vice chair at Stonewall, said was "an important step towards jtice" for those whose ary reers were "ed" bee of their sexualy. Many still have a crimal rerd to this also tails how some veterans faced a plete loss of e, while others were emed eligible to claim their pensn bee of their report more than 20 years after four servicemen and women, who were sacked for beg gay, won a se the European Court of Human Rights and overturned the armed forc chary Royal Brish Legn lled on the ernment to accept the report's remendatns chary's director general Charl Byrne weled both the report and Mr Sunak's "landmark apology", sayg many people who had dited their liv to the untry were "forced or felt prsured to leave the armed forc, and this mistreatment stroyed or shortened their reer".

RISHI SUNAK APOLOGIS TO LGBT VETERANS FOR PAST ARMED FORC GAY BAN

Set asi your judgment, bee a gay uple the ary got married, and their photo is full of love. * gay military love *

Her discharge om the ary over her homosexualy had turned her to an Tob/The New York Public LibraryPublished July 19, 2023Updated July 23, 2023Lilli Vcenz, who beme a gay rights activist the hhed, reprsive era before the Stonewall rebelln of 1969, when such a ncept srcely existed, makg a mark as a newspaper edor, documentary filmmaker and psychotherapist voted to L. She was ath, at a re facily, was nfirmed by a niece, Julia Bo, who did not specify a Vcenz’s journey to promence the nascent gay rights movement of the mid-1960s began after a personal llisn wh tolerance.

In 1963, she was servg the Women’s Army Corps when a roommate outed her as gay, leadg to her discharge after only ne months took that rejectn as an opportuny to beg a fight agast jtice that would gui her for s.

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I jt really wanted to know kd of experienc you had as a Gay man the Milary or Navy?Also your experience what Branch has the most Gay guys ?I am sure we would love to hear your ... * gay military love *

Vicenz beme, by most acunts, the first lbian to picket the Whe Hoe support of equal rights for gay people as a member of the Mattache Society of Washgton, an early gay rights prott — the first of s kd, acrdg to the Library of Congrs — and others that followed were small but brought visibily to a movement s fancy. Vcenz beme the first out lbian to appear on the ver of a natnal gay magaze, The Ladr, a publitn produced by the untry’s first lbian-rights group, the Dghters of Bilis, acrdg to a retrospective on her life and reer by Lillian Farman, a historian of lbian and gay her scbbed, all-Amerin looks, Dr. Vcenz looked like “every mother’s dream dghter, ” as Barbara Gtgs, The Ladr’s edor, put Vcenz also ntributed to the e on the other si of a mera, makg two 16-limeter films that were later hailed as signifint artifacts of the early gay rights first, tled “The Send-Largt Mory, ” documents a Mattache Society prott ont of Inpennce Hall Philalphia on July 4, morn ey, the black-and-whe film, roughly seven mut, seems anythg but seismic.

E AND XAVER: GAY LOVE STORY OF WWI SOLDIERS BURIED TOGETHER GO VIRAL

3 quot have been tagged as gay-ary: Ensan Case, Wgmen: ‘I've ever felt better my life, Fred. Never.’, Ensan Case, Wgmen: ‘I've never felt b... * gay military love *

It was Washgton — not Bethda, Md., where is we handle rrectnsA versn of this article appears prt on, Sectn A, Page 20 of the New York edn wh the headle: Lilli Vcenz, a Trailblazer the Gay Rights Movement, Di at 85.

Veterans’ ttimoni “give shockg evince of a culture of homophobia, and of bullyg, blackmail and sexual asslts, abive vtigatns to sexual orientatn and sexual preference, disgraceful medil examatns, cludg nversn therapy, ” the report said.

“From a personal pot of view, the ban affected me terms of who I was and what I uldn’t be for 34 years, ” Holm ban on homosexualy was abandoned 2000, when the European Court of Human Rights led favor of four service personnel who were vtigated and then discharged bee of their sexualy. Fally, 1936 SS lear and Chief of the German Police Herich Himmler tablished the Reich Central Office for the Combatg of Homosexualy and Abortn (Reichszentrale zur Bekämpfung r Homosexualät und r Abtreibung).

TURKISH GAYS AND THE ARY

A few years later, May 2008, the Memorial to Homosexuals Persecuted unr Nazism (Denkmal für die im Natnalsozialism verfolgten Homosexuellen) was unveiled nearby Tiergarten park central Berl. Fortunately that policy was officially lifted by Print Obama back September 2011, and now that ’s legal for anyone the gay muny Ameri to marry, more and more ary personnel are takg their vows. Got missned as an officer 2002 and am approachg my 12th year a gay man, 2002 - 2004 were the worst bee I was so aaid of gettg kicked out unr Don't Ask Don't those were technilly supposed to be among the bt years of my datg life!

Surprisgly, I've found the Army to be the gay-iendlit branch (most of my good iends are straight Soldiers who know I'm gay and have been nothg but supportive) Anonymoreply 6Febary 9, 2014 9:51 PM. Her discharge om the ary over her homosexualy had turned her to an activist.Cred...Kay Tob/The New York Public LibraryPublished July 19, 2023Updated July 23, 2023Lilli Vcenz, who beme a gay rights activist the hhed, reprsive era before the Stonewall rebelln of 1969, when such a ncept srcely existed, makg a mark as a newspaper edor, documentary filmmaker and psychotherapist voted to L.G.B.T.Q.

In 1963, she was servg the Women’s Army Corps when a roommate outed her as gay, leadg to her discharge after only ne months uniform.She took that rejectn as an opportuny to beg a fight agast jtice that would gui her for s. Vicenz beme, by most acunts, the first lbian to picket the Whe Hoe support of equal rights for gay people as a member of the Mattache Society of Washgton, an early gay rights anizatn.The prott — the first of s kd, acrdg to the Library of Congrs — and others that followed were small but brought visibily to a movement s fancy.“What did I want to acplish?” she told Gay Today about her early efforts wh the society.

THE FILM PUT DON’T WANT THE WORLD TO SEE: FIREBIRD, A GAY LOVE STORY ABOUT FIGHTER PILOTS

Vcenz beme the first out lbian to appear on the ver of a natnal gay magaze, The Ladr, a publitn produced by the untry’s first lbian-rights group, the Dghters of Bilis, acrdg to a retrospective on her life and reer by Lillian Farman, a historian of lbian and gay culture.Wh her scbbed, all-Amerin looks, Dr. Vcenz also ntributed to the e on the other si of a mera, makg two 16-limeter films that were later hailed as signifint artifacts of the early gay rights movement.The first, tled “The Send-Largt Mory,” documents a Mattache Society prott ont of Inpennce Hall Philalphia on July 4, 1968.To morn ey, the black-and-whe film, roughly seven mut, seems anythg but seismic.

Lookg like a home movie, shows clean-cut protters office attire marchg an orrly circle, rryg plards wh msag like “Sexual Preference Is Irrelevant to Employment.”But the prott was revolutnary for the tim.“The whole notn of gay people publicly exprsg their sentiments that fashn was beyond nceptualizatn until we started dog ,” the Mattache Society’s -founr, Frankl E. “If we had not persisted, there would have been no Stonewall.”Her send film, “Gay and Proud,” documented the Christopher Street Liberatn Day Para 1970, a memoratn of the first anniversary of the Stonewall uprisg Manhattan.

GAY ARY UPLE’S WEDDG PHOTO PROV WE’VE E A LONG WAY

The uprisg, after a police raid at Stonewall Inn, a gay bar Greenwich Village, was a turng pot the gay rights movement.“Gay and Proud” shows a much larger, and shaggier, gatherg of protters takg a more ant stance the para, chantg fiantly and wavg plards wh msag like “I am a lbian and I am betiful.”In addn to providg a “val piece of gay history,” Ms. Vcenz’s films “gave visual documentatn of the astonishg distance that the gay movement had traveled between 1968 and 1970.” Even the tl of the films, she add, showed “how the movement ceased beechg and beme -your-face challengg.”ImageDr.

Farman’s retrospective.This putative hotbed, however, had a policy banng gay people om service, and she was thrown out while trag as a nropsychiatric technician at the Walter Reed ary hospal Washgton.Durg the 1970s, Dr. She eventually earned a doctorate om the Universy of Maryland.“I fd a privilege to work wh gay people who are, general, so much more urageo, novative and open to new ias than the average straight person,” she told Gay Today. It was Washgton — not Bethda, Md., where is now.How we handle rrectnsA versn of this article appears prt on  , Sectn A, Page 20 of the New York edn wh the headle: Lilli Vcenz, a Trailblazer the Gay Rights Movement, Di at 85.

SO ANY GAY GUYS WHO HAVE BEEN THE MILARY OR NAVY POST HERE?

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THE REVOLUTNARY WAR HERO WHO WAS OPENLY GAY

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E and Xaver: Gay love story of WWI soldiers buried together go viral | PkNews .

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