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Permanent Select Commtee on..." class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></picture></div></div></span><div class="CaptnWrapper-jSZdqE iTuhkZ ptn ContentHearLeadAssetCaptn-hPWmSN kuCzGS"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ CaptnText-bHjzlu iUEiRd hWyo iXWezO ptn__text">Marie Yovanovch ttified before Congrs as part of the 2019 impeachment quiry to Donald Tmp’s actns toward Ukrae.</span><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ CaptnCred-ejegDm iUEiRd iicloT jbIJNS ptn__cred">Photograph by Kev Dietsch / UPI / Alamy </span></div></div></figure><div data-ttid="ContentHearLeadRailAnchor" class="ContentHearLeadRailAnchor-jYVcDc djtEof"></div></div></div></div></hear></div><div data-attribute-verso-pattern="article-body" class="ArticlePageContentBackGround-cNiFNN kbAoLA article-body__ntent"><div class="ActnBarWrapperContent-lasBkU cAHp"><div class="ActnBarWrapperComponent-cjwxLS bEeSLb"><div data-attr-viewport-monor="" 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data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="has-dropp has-dropp__lead-standard-headg">In thirty-three years of diplomatic service, <a href=">Marie Yovanovch</a> was never one of those Washgton creatur aglow self-regard. The big public profile wasn’t her thg. Ined, if you told her that she would end her diplomatic reer by beg fired by Donald Tmp and <a href=">ttifyg</a> his <a href=">first impeachment</a> proceedgs, she would have been mortified.</p><p class="paywall">Masha, as almost everyone lls her, was my llege Rsian class years ago, though her skills were, as the pils transcripts reveal, fely better than me. She served Embassi Somalia and Rsia; var rol at the State Department; and then as the U.S. Ambassador to Armenia, to Kyrgyzstan, and, om 2016 to 2019, as an Obama appotee, to Ukrae.</p><p class="paywall">In Kyiv, Yovanovch spent much of her time tryg to jole Ukraian officials and bspeople to move beyond a culture of rptn, an impulse that earned her some fluential enemi. In 2019, she fell victim to a smear mpaign anized by, among others, rpt officials Kyiv, Tmp’s lawyer Rudolph Giuliani, and the right-wg media. Deemed disloyal to Tmp—“a stooge,” acrdg to Giuliani—she was summoned back to Washgton and summarily fired. Meanwhile, Giuliani and others were tryg to get the Ukraian Print, <a href=">Volodymyr Zelensky</a>, to dig up dirt on Joe Bin and his son Hunter, who had bs algs Ukrae. Tmp, his fateful telephone ll to Zelensky—a ccial tone the cha of miseds that led to impeachment—said that Yovanovch was “bad news.” Yovanovch, her ttimony to Congrs, four months later, said, “Our Ukrae policy has been thrown to disarray, and shady terts the world over have learned how ltle tak to remove an Amerin Ambassador who do not give them what they want.”</p><p class="paywall">[<em>Get the -pth analysis and on-the-ground reportg you need to unrstand the war Ukrae. <a href=">Subscribe today »</a></em>]</p><p class="paywall">Yovanovch’s parents emigrated om Europe to Canada after the Send World War and then me to the U.S. She grew up Kent, Connecticut. After her appearance before Congrs, she beme a kd of Tmp-era folk hero—the most profsnal diplomat turned whistle-blower. Her memoir, “<a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Lsons om the Edge</a>,” will be published mid-March. We recently spoke about <a href=">events Ukrae and Rsia</a>, as well as her experienc wh the Tmp Admistratn. Our nversatn has been eded for length and clary.</p><div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--article-mid-ntent" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--article-mid-ntent nsumer-marketg-un__slot---ntent"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><p class="paywall"><strong>Masha, mt be paful to watch as Put’s Army <a href=">vas</a> a place you lived and red about so much.</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-1 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">This is now an ovesed word, but ’s vastatg. It’s vastatg for me on a personal level. More importantly, ’s vastatg to so many of the people whom I know Ukrae and who are bravely fightg the Rsian ary.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Are you hearg om those iends?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I am. I’m also hearg om iends who were lucky enough to be able to leave Ukrae. And I’m hearg om people who are now Poland, who are tryg to help refuge or tryg to provi suppli to Ukrae. It’s a sperate time.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Did this take you by surprise?</strong></p><p class="paywall">On the one hand, Put has been signallg this for a long time, both his rhetoric and his actns. There was that speech 2005, when he said that “the greatt geopolil tastrophe” of the twentieth century was the breakg apart of the Soviet Unn. There was his llg out of <em class="small">NATO</em>, 2007, at the Munich Secury Conference. And there was his vasn of Geia, 2008, which was a semal moment—and where we reacted, perhaps, not strongly enough. Put is a bully. If he isn’t met wh strength, he’s gonna keep gog.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Was there telligence that Put uld va Ukrae?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Well, I retired om the State Department back 2020, so I don’t have accs to the telligence anymore. But, y, I’m sure that there were all sorts of privileged munitns. One of the thgs that the Bin Admistratn has done, which I n’t remember seeg before, is quickly <a href=">classifyg telligence</a> and <a href=">sharg wh the world</a>. I’m sure not everythg was classified, but an awful lot of was, and took away some of the element of surprise.</p><div class="Contaer-bkChBi byNLHx"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>Put has a lany of rentments and reasons for his actns. They clu the eastward expansn of <a href="><em class="small">NATO</em></a>, and whatever the U.S. telligence agenci may or may not have done to help foment the llapse of the Soviet Unn. He also pots to our actns Kosovo and Iraq, the sense that the U.S. acts wh impuny. A lot of people who are horrified by the vasn pot to the factors, too. How would you rpond?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-2 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">Well, that’s certaly the Rsian narrative, Put’s narrative. But what should we have done differently? What should we have said to the untri of Central Europe, who had fears of their own, and fears that they would be left a no man’s land? Should we have said, “Yeah, we’re jt not terted”? I thk that would’ve been a mistake. You know, the thg about the Uned Stat and <em class="small">NATO</em> and the <a href=">European Unn</a> is that we have ias. We are about mocracy and eedom and palism and secury, as well as dividual liberti. It’s a fact that people are better off unr mocraci.</p><p class="paywall">And, sce World War Two, that has been the sgle most important driver of Amerin fluence and power. Y, we have a big ary. Y, we have a strong enomy. But ’s our ias that attract others. Rsia unr Put don’t really have that power of attractn. He only has the power of ercn, and we are seeg that now Ukrae a btal way.</p><p class="paywall">I’m not sayg that the U.S. has always acted perfectly. We’ve certaly ma our share of mistak. But <em class="small">NATO</em> is a fensive alliance. It do not pose a threat to Put or Rsia. In fact, the lears of Europe and Print Bin were tryg to ratchet down tensns before all this.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>How far will Put take this? The vasn hasn’t gone the way he would’ve liked, but maybe time is on his si. The sheer volume of arms is on his si. What do he want here?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I thk he wants to ntrol Ukrae. When I was the untry, om 2016 to 2019, I always felt that he didn’t really want to <em>own</em> Ukrae, bee then there’s at least a modicum of rponsibily. He would have to provi servic. But he wanted to make sure that Ukrae didn’t have the power of self-termatn. He wanted to keep his sphere of fluence. What he disvered—due, ironilly, to his own actns, particularly the annexatn of Crimea and the vasn of the Donbass—was that he is the sgle biggt driver sce pennce, 1991, of brgg the Ukraian people together.</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><asi class="PersistentAsiWrapper-VGrR daRVRt persistent-asi" style="posn:absolute;top:to;height:to" data-ttid="PersistentAsiWrapper"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssS ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="bsrc0i"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></asi></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssS ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="4ylhwn5"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">When I was Ukrae the early two-thoands, nobody knew the words to the natnal anthem. By the time I me back, 2016, everybody knew the anthem. They put their hands on their hearts. The same is te now, as <a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Rsian troops are targetg krgartens</a>.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Would Ukrae have been better off as a member state of <em class="small">NATO</em>?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Y. Lookg back over the long history, there were opportuni. But smaller untri that are ught between giants often try to fd a balance between powers. That was certaly the foreign policy of Print Leonid Kuchma the late neteen-neti and early two-thoands. There was also an opportuny unr <a href=">Print Viktor Yhchenko</a>. But the Ukraians cled to walk through a semi-open door.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-3 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>Was that Ukrae’s mistake, or <em class="small">NATO</em>’s?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Ukrae, ankly, still has a lot of work to do before ’s ready to jo <em class="small">NATO</em>. There’s the matter of reforms.</p><p class="paywall">But right now, rather than lookg to the past, at what uld have been, we need to look forward. And we need to look at what Put and Rsia are dog Ukrae. We need to see how we n support the Ukraians what is an existential stggle and a threat to European secury. That means ’s also a threat to the Uned Stat, bee we have treaty obligatns unr <em class="small">NATO</em>. Put has been very clear. He is about tearg down the liberal, l-based ternatnal orr that was tablished after World War Two.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>To what extent is Ukrae a mocracy?</strong></p><p class="paywall">It’s a velopg mocracy. Thk about where the U.S. was after jt thirty years of pennce. It’s a stggle. It tak time not only to tablish the stutns, but also to velop the culture, pecially if you’re g out of a Communist state. It’s the work of a uple of generatns. But I thk they’ve ma a lot of progrs. And, as we’ve disvered here the Uned Stat recently, we n’t take mocracy for granted. We need to ntue to nurture and fend .</p><p class="paywall"><strong>When you look back on , what was the effect of the Tmp Princy on Put and his behavr toward the Uned Stat?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I n’t say for sure. Nobody’s Put’s head. But I thk that he found enuragg when Print Tmp, at the famo Helski summ [ 2018], chose not to believe his own telligence agenci [about Rsian terference the 2016 electn]. He took Put at his word publicly. That was a real blow.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Why do you thk Put cid to va now and not durg the Tmp Princy?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-4 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">There are probably a lot of factors. Print Zelensky is a Rsian speaker om the east of Ukrae, and has a real affy for Rsia and Rsians. He me to power [ 2019] to do two thgs. One was to get ntrol of rptn. The send was to achieve peace the Donbass. He was credibly popular Ukrae, and got a seventy-per-cent-pl mandate. Put was hopeful that this was gog to work out very well for himself. And didn’t. Ukrae ntu to turn wt. When Zelensky me , he was ambivalent about <em class="small">NATO</em>, but over the years his appeals to <em class="small">NATO</em> member untri have been creasgly strong. I thk that Put sens that he has nothg to offer Ukrae, that time may be nng out.</p><p class="paywall">The other thg is that ’s no secret that our untry is divid. Put himself has tried to exacerbate some of those divisns. Clearly, the <a href=">whdrawal om Afghanistan</a> was not a shg moment for the Uned Stat. The Nord Stream 2 cisn [not to impose sanctns on a proposed pipele that uld rry gas om the Rsian ast to Germany]—which now has been reversed, thankfully—was place. I thk he thought, Hmm, you know, they’re not gog to react strongly. <em class="small">NATO</em> and the E.U. are not hive. I n take advantage of this moment.</p><p class="paywall">He’s fdg out now that this lculatn was wrong. Diplomatilly, Bin and [Secretary of State] Antony Blken have done an credible job of keepg the alli together. And every day our polici get stronger.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Let’s talk about Zelensky a ltle b. This is not somebody who was your biggt fan. We’ll get to that a ltle later. How do you thk he has performed recent weeks?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I thk there is a pre-vasn Zelensky and a post-vasn Zelensky. It’s no secret that he was very cril of the Uned Stat for revealg the telligence and warng our public, the Ukraian public, and the publics of the world about what was g. But that telligence proved to be rrect. Zelensky had said that he had different telligence and me to a different asssment. He was ncerned, unrstandably, about the impact on Ukrae’s enomy.</p><p class="paywall">But I have to say that, once he accepted that was likely that the Rsians were gog to va, he has been phenomenal. He has displayed great urage. He has displayed learship. And he’s the ma-for-TV Print!</p><p class="paywall"><strong>It almost seems disrpectful to say so on such a day, but here’s a Jewish, Rsian-speakg ic actor who beme Print. It’s as if Jerry Sefeld or Jon Stewart had bee Print our untry. And yet look!</strong></p><p class="paywall">He’s done a phenomenal job. He’s also wng the Twter and Facebook wars, which are impactg the ketic war. He is spirg his people, and he’s spirg the world. I jt hope n ntue.</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssS ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="7qqvi8"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall"><strong>Do you thk n?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-5 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">This is a long, long game. The Ukraian learship, the U.S. and European learships, need to be this for the long hl, bee what happens now, and what happens over the next several months, is gog to have a huge impact, not jt for Europe, but I thk for the world. And we need to step up.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>We all spend a lot of time, much of futile, tryg to image what’s si Put’s head. But his ary operatn, to put dly, is not gog as well as he might have hoped. And, spe the domtic crackdown recent years, and maybe worse to e, there are monstratns agast him dozens of Rsian ci. Is there any possibily that this leads to the end of Put power?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I agree that the secury servic will crack down on the monstratns; the more people who e out, the more will be arrted. It’s also worth rememberg that this is the seventh anniversary of [the liberal reformer] <a href=">Boris Nemtsov’s assassatn</a>—gunned down near the gat of the Kreml! And his killers have not been brought to jtice. The <a href=">pennt</a> <a href=">media</a> barely exists Rsia today. The <a href=">human-rights group Memorial</a> has been closed. And yet we still see people dog the right thg!</p><p class="paywall">Will that lead to regime change? It’s hard for me to believe. Put’s ner circle is very small, and I don’t even know how much fluence they have. It seems very ltle.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Put charg the Ukraian ernment wh beg neo-Nazi.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Rather than lvg to crazy nspiracy theori, I thk what’s important is jt to unrstand that this is about Print Put. It’s about his actns. It’s about a ary vadg a peaceful neighbor. It’s crazy to talk about -Nazifitn when you have a Jewish Print. It’s beyond the pale. It’s the disrmatn that we’ve been seeg for years now. And ’s all part of the playbook that we need to unter.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Your father was born Cha, Siberia, and your mother was born tryg ndns Germany. They eventually ma to Connecticut. How did their liv fluence your choice of reer?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Thank you for askg about my parents. I really wanted to honor them this book. They me here wh nothg after World War Two, and, like so many immigrants to the Uned Stat, they believed hard work, the power of tn, gog to church, dog the right thg. And so I had a pretty strict upbrgg—there were a lot of lectur and thgs. But what mattered was the power of their example, their belief that, the Uned Stat, there was opportuny.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-6 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">My parents were teachers, so they brought up not only my brother and me but generatns of stunts who still remember them. So you want to give back. I love polics. I love history. I love travel. I like different cuis. And jt seemed like the Foreign Service was the right place for me. And, for three s, was.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>What, rough terms, are your polics?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I’m probably kd of middle of the road, tendg toward liberal.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>In “Lsons om the Edge,” you scribe vivid tail your dismay watchg Tmp’s Ingural Addrs. You were already Ambassador to Ukrae at the time. What did you thk his Princy was gog to mean for you and the job and diplomatic relatns?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I’m a profsnal. I’ve served Republin and Democratic Prints and followed their policy l. That don’t mean that you don’t have your own opn. It don’t mean that you don’t argue for a particular set of actns. But, once a policy le is set, profsnals implement those polici.</p><p class="paywall">So, wh regard to a Tmp Admistratn, I wasn’t sure what was gog to happen, but I hoped and even believed that Print Tmp, pecially sce he was not experienced foreign affairs, would follow the tradnal Republin foreign-policy le. And, that rpect, I thought that Ukrae would probably do all right. In fact, for most of the time that I was there, the foreign policy toward Ukrae was pretty siar to what had been unr Obama.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>When was the first ditn that maybe thgs were a ltle different?</strong></p><p class="paywall">All new Admistratns are chaotic. Contuy of ernment is one of the challeng that we have the Uned Stat. I wasn’t that surprised that this was the se wh the Tmp Admistratn. But that chaos, wh regard to cisn-makg, never really stopped.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-7 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>It was amatr hour, a way.</strong></p><p class="paywall">I suppose that’s one way of puttg , although there were some really good people the Tmp Admistratn who knew what they were dog.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>You spent an enormo amount of your time ncerned wh rptn Ukrae. At what pot did you start to sense that not only were Ukraian officials rentg your attentn but that this was havg an effect back home, that you were beg nsired a pa the neck?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Or another part of the anatomy? You know, nobody lik to reform, not the U.S., not overseas. It’s hard work, right? Even if you don’t have a personal stake . And many of the people the Ukraian ernment did have a personal stake [ the stat quo], bee some of the reforms beg suggted would have stopped the party.</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssS ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="79hkh"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssS ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="vk4kwb"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">So I wasn’t surprised that there was phback om the Ukraians. But, after about a year [unr Tmp], I started to hear thgs: somebody g to me or to somebody else the Embassy and sayg, “Hey, is she dog a good job, what’s gog on here?” Or a lobbyist gog to somebody at the Natnal Secury Council and sayg, “You really need to replace her.”</p><p class="paywall"><strong>One of the biggt surpris the book was a passage about Zelensky, who not only didn’t fend you to the Admistratn but cricized you. You wre:</strong></p><blockquote class="BlockquoteEmbedWrapper-sc-SdiGL jPeLne paywall blockquote-embed"><div class="BlockquoteEmbedContent-RbGs gmbtPx blockquote-embed__ntent"><p><strong>Remarkably, Zelenskyy piled on. He lled me a “bad ambassador” and said he agreed wh Tmp’s asssment of me “100%.” Even more omoly, he requted rmatn “for the vtigatn to make sure that we admister jtice our untry wh regard to the Ambassador to the Uned Stat om Ukrae, as far as I rell her name was Ivanovich.” Zelenskyy got my name wrong and my tle backward, but was clear what he meant: I was at risk of prosecutn Ukrae.</strong></p></div></blockquote><p class="paywall"><strong>This me on the heels of Tmp sayg, “Get rid of her. Get her out tomorrow.”</strong></p><p class="paywall">Yeah. It was remarkable. It was chillg that Tmp would foc on me like that. It’s ighteng—the most powerful man the world.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-8 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>What about Zelensky’s attu toward you?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Maybe I’m wrong, but I thk that he was terg to Tmp. I thk he knew what Tmp wanted to hear. And so he was certaly ready to give to him. I met wh Zelensky a number of tim. We had a perfectly normal relatnship.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>What was your imprsn of him then?</strong></p><p class="paywall">The first time I met him, I was expectg to meet a edian, a really funny guy. And he was funny, but he was also really ser. He wanted to prent himself as a bsperson, as somebody who had built up an entertament nglomerate, which he had. He’s a self-ma lnaire. He wanted to make clear that he had executive skills. He was very proud of the fact that he had built up a bs empire and how succsful was the Rsian-speakg world.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>You were ught the crosshairs of history. Tmp’s men wanted you out of the way. Corpt Ukraian officials wanted you out of the way. And you end up not only fired by the Print but ttifyg his impeachment trial, after the Admistratn warned you agast . How did you approach that ttimony? You showed up to Capol Hill sunglass, lookg ready.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Well, I try to be as prepared as possible—though the sunglass are actually my prcriptn glass, which darken the sun! But I wanted to let people know that I’m jt like everybody else. I thk was important for our untry that I ttify, and that many others ttify, so that the tth uld e out. Everybody has their own part to play our mocracy. And, you know, sometim ’s helpg wh the P.T.A. and sometim ’s far more dramatic.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>As you were stg there, gettg ready to ttify, I’m sure you were prepared for all kds of qutns. But did you figure was a given that Tmp would get off?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I have a bifurted personaly: the Slavic background, which is always negative and psimistic, and the Amerin me, which is always very hopeful and optimistic. I certaly felt that if sellg out our natnal-secury terts for personal and polil ga didn’t mer a nvictn, then I didn’t know what did. But I was there as a fact wns. I was not there to be asked what my personal opn was. I did my duty. But, lookg at the makp of the Hoe and the Senate, I have to say wasn’t clear to me that he’d be nvicted.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-9 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>A iend D.C. told me that, not long after the ttimony, you walked to the Blu Alley jazz club and the crowd went nuts.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Well, wasn’t <em>que</em> like that! But, yeah, was a very nice and reaffirmg moment. People appreciated what I’d done. I got that msage through many, many letters om the Amerin public. It was affirmg bee there were others who felt that what I did was wrong.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Masha, we are only four or five days to this terrible asslt on Ukrae. Is there any way you see this endg soon?</strong></p><p class="paywall">As a diplomat, I always hope that negotiatns will lead to some sort of posive ncln. I have to say, though, that I don’t have a great al of hope for the negotiatns at the borr. I thk ’s jt more of the same, where Put is puttg out all this chaff to ter and distract. Lookg at the posn of the Rsian legatn—they’re not sendg their heavy hters. So, how ser is this, really?</p><p class="paywall">But the Rsians are fdg that the Ukraian ary and people are fightg harr than they expected. They’re also fdg out that their own logistics n’t keep them gog, though they haven’t yet ployed everythg they uld, which is ighteng to me.</p><p class="paywall">I jt got a text om the mayor of Kyiv, which is surround now on all sis. So, what is gog to happen? I’m not beg very articulate, bee this is actually somethg that profoundly disturbs me. There are the policy elements of this, but then there’s also the personal element, the people who are fightg for a ee Ukrae, people who have targets on their backs, lerally. There are people you know who will die. It’s jt very difficult to thk about.</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssS ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="wmtii2j"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 PaywallInleBarrierWhWrapperGrid-fyrGfS kLQIUk grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="body body__le-barrier article__body"><div class="ntaer ntaer--body"><div class="ntaer--body-ner"><asi class="PaywallInleBarrierWrapper-iBnuqk lfXXa-D" data-ttid="PaywallInleBarrierWrapper"><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--paywall-le-barrier" role="prentatn" aria-live="pole" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--paywall-le-barrier"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></asi></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ContentWrapperGrid-fvkmBv brYtrA grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="body body__ntaer"><div class="ntaer ntaer--body"><div class="ntaer--body-ner"></div></div></div></div></div></div></article><div class="ContentFooterWrapper-jVNdRG dTJkpP ArticlePageContentFooterGrid-ccsXYy eMZRHU article-body__footer"><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="LkStackWrapper-NFLYw kgtXXB lkstack" data-ttid="LkStack"><div class="SectnTleRoot-dBGvdq kjAxEG LkStackHear-lKjbE hejl lk-stack--headg" data-ttid="SectnTle"><h2 class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SectnTleHed-dKqZet dxqEAa dqtvfu jttyjJ">More on the War Ukrae</h2></div><div class="LkStackContent-jyKicS gPhyME"><ul class="LkStackList-gGcjdZ dnMwpz"><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>How Ukraians <a href="/magaze/2022/05/09/how-raians-saved-their-pal" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">saved their pal</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>A historian envisns <a href="/news/the-new-yorker-terview/how-the-war--rae-ends" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">a settlement among Rsia, Ukrae, and the Wt</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>How Rsia’s latt manr Ukrae <a href="/news/q-and-a/how-ssias-new-manr--rae-uld-change-the-war" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">uld change the war</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>The profound fiance of <a href="/news/dispatch/the-profound-fiance-of-daily-life--kyiv" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">daily life Kyiv</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>The Ukrae <a href="/news/letter-om-bins-washgton/the-rae-crackup--the-gop" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">crackup the G.O.P.</a></p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>A filmmaker’s journey to <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-documentary/a-filmmakers-journey-to-the-heart-of-war--rae" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">the heart of the war</a>.</p></div></li></ul><div class="LkStackFooter-KfRyO ebnmps lk-stack--footer"><div><p><a href=">Sign up for our daily newsletter</a> to receive the bt stori om <em>The New Yorker</em>.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="ContributorsWrapper-eNpWFu GWFsc ntributors" data-ttid="Contributors"><div class="ContributorBWrapper-bnVHbt gMon"><div class="ContributorBAvatar-bIGTqf eMWbvj"><a href="/ntributors/david-remnick"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW jvZaPI rponsive-asset"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa rponsive-image"><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></picture></span></a></div><div class="ContributorBContent-ubQdr jZTSSi"><div class="ContributorBHear-ledood XOIEx"></div><div class="ContributorBB-fBolsO giFhKz"><a href="/ntributors/david-remnick">David Remnick</a> has been the edor of The New Yorker sce 1998 and a staff wrer sce 1992. He is the thor of seven books; the most recent is “<a href=">Holdg the Note</a>,” a llectn of his profil of micians.</div><div class="ContributorBFooter-brqDlv ezUmSv"></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div data-ttid="TagCloudWrapper" class="TagCloudWrapper-gGgndx ctyZyK ContentFooterTagCloud-krQmRG ZLGh"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudSectnHear-cOforY iUEiRd bPyAoD kQQRmu">More:</span><a href="/tag/rae" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">Ukrae</span></a><a href="/tag/ssia" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">Rsia</span></a><a href="/tag/vladimir-put" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">Vladimir Put</span></a><a href="/tag/volodymyr-zelensky" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">Volodymyr Zelensky</span></a><a href="/tag/ambassadors" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">Ambassadors</span></a><a href="/tag/donald-tmp" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">Donald Tmp</span></a><a href="/tag/impeachment" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">Impeachment</span></a></div></div></div></div><div data-ttid="ContentFooterBottom" class="ContentFooterBottom-jwWZfC kcbyiW"><div class="ContentFooterNewsletterContentWrapper-bmjtna kixtae"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div data-ttid="NewsletterSubscribeFormWrapper" class="NewsletterSubscribeFormWrapper-fCqqkN jKSBhE newsletter-subscribe-form ContentFooterNewsletterForm-hKeYwa liPqcf"><div data-ttid="NewsletterSubscribeFormHedDekWrapper" class="NewsletterSubscribeFormHedDekWrapper-fpMElW eglIBL"><h3 class="NewsletterSubscribeFormDangeroHed-kRwWjt kbxOa-D newsletter-subscribe-form__hed ContentFooterNewsletterForm-hKeYwa liPqcf">Daily</h3><div class="NewsletterSubscribeFormDek-kXonvc cKOhTM newsletter-subscribe-form__k">The bt of <i>The New Yorker</i> today, cludg sential reads, fictn, humor, and a peek behd the scen of our biggt stori.</div></div><div data-ttid="NewsletterSubscribeFormInputsWrapper" class="NewsletterSubscribeFormInputsWrapper-keARJE hVWbzr"><form class="form-wh-validatn NewsletterSubscribeFormValidatn-iCYa-Dt dweEln" id="newsletter" name="newsletter" novalidate="" method="POST"><span class="TextFieldWrapper-Pzdqp hNhevp text-field" data-ttid="TextFieldWrapper__email"><label class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TextFieldLabel-klrYvg iUEiRd stdEm fvoOvz text-field__label text-field__label--sgle-le" for="newsletter-text-field-email" data-ttid="TextFieldLabel__email"><div class="TextFieldLabelText-cvvxBl eeDYTb">E-mail addrs</div><div class="TextFieldInputContaer-jcMPhb oFrOs"><put type="email" aria-scribedby="privacy-text" aria-valid="false" id="newsletter-text-field-email" required="" name="email" placeholr="E-mail addrs" class="BaseInput-fAzTdK TextFieldControlInput-eFUxkf eGzzTT laFPCK text-field__ntrol text-field__ntrol--put" data-ttid="TextFieldInput__email"/></div></label><button class="BaseButton-bLlsy ButtonWrapper-xCepQ bqVKKv dwpimO button button--utily TextFieldButton-csBrgY edxbrw" data-event-click="{"element":"Button"}" data-ttid="Button" type="subm"><span class="ButtonLabel-cjAuJN hzwRuG button__label">Sign up</span></button></span><div id="privacy-text" tabx="-1" class="NewsletterSubscribeFormDisclaimer-bTVtiV bsgLJZ"><span><p>By signg up, you agree to our <a href=" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">User Agreement</a> and <a href=" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Privacy Policy & Cookie Statement</a>. 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media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Are You the Same Person You Used to Be?" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">Rearchers have studied how much of our personaly is set om childhood, but what you’re like isn’t who you are.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Joshua Rothman</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff hlYhBH summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm eamwqR" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Why Barbie Mt Be Punished" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl ldWYvC summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">The Weekend Essay</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Why Barbie Mt Be Punished</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Why Barbie Mt Be Punished" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">Mothers, dghters, and an in’s existential crisis.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Llie Jamison</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff hlYhBH summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm eamwqR" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 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aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="On Killg Charl Dickens" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">I did everythg I uld to avoid wrg my historil novel. When I fally started “The Frd,” one prciple was clear: no Dickens.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Zadie Smh</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssS SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm eamwqR ad ad--read-more"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--read-more" data-no-id="np6q7n"></div></div></div><div class="SummaryCollectnGridToActnWrapper-gnReGN eGayfk"></div></div></div></div></div></div><div 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