bars</tle><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_65hRV2Qwn" class="css-1fxvzwo" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_ILVvi2tqx" class="css-1wnday1" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC"><rect x="34" width="6" height="36" id="el_qw_T_tngXw"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_p_9Pm85Ac" class="css-fwki7z" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_WxG3R40yd" class="css-t3i5e6" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU"><rect x="22.67" width="6" height="36" id="el_lf9GrROk6j"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_kYNRGDfcw" class="css-t9te0w" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_3c3bzSjOJ" class="css-1r5375t" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw"><rect x="11.33" width="6" height="36" id="el_-iueO8klO0"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_y_fKcpSxn" class="css-qknaag" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_R6bNB6_Ys" class="css-1vd04" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC"><rect width="6" height="36" id="el_dS5TKNZZ5w"></rect></g></g></g></svg></div><div><div class="css-1t7yl1y">0:00<!-- -->/<!-- -->27:19</div><div class="css-og85jy">-<!-- -->27:19</div></div></div></div></hear><div class="css-uzyn7p"><div class="css-1vxyw"><p class="css-1nng8z9">transcript</p><h2 class="css-9wqu2x">A View From the Right on Progrsiv’ ‘Moral Csa’</h2><h4 class="css-qsd3hm">Noah Rothman and Alex Kgsbury bate whether the left actually has a problem wh fun.</h4><time dateTime="2022-07-20T09:00:10.000Z" class="css-1e605">2022-07-20T05:00:10-04:00</time></div><dl class="css-p98d0w"><dt class="css-xx7kwh"></dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s “The Argument.” I’m Jane Coaston.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’ve been wantg to argue wh Noah Rothman sce I got his new book the mail. It’s lled “The Rise of the New Purans: Fightg Back Agast Progrsiv’ War on Fun“. And spoiler, I disagree wh a lot of the this. What he thks of as new Purans, others might ll woke progrsiv. I, for the rerd, would not. But I thk I know what he’s referrg to. It’s a very specific type of progrsive he’s takg aim at whom, he says, has a lot mon wh historil Purans. Some of the mdsets they have mon —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">A utopianism.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">In other words, realizg, hey, stuff hasn’t been so great for a lot of people Ameri. So let’s try to make better.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">A msianic missn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Or the moral mobs that take down wrongdoers on Twter.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">An anxiety over banal pastim.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Like fdg the problems wh football.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And generally, a tratn wh an anxiety towards idlens, that which is idle which do not ntribute to actively to the progrsive project.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s not that he thks the Purans wanted bad thgs. He jt thks they went about a not fun, not helpful way. And he thks the new Purans, those slds on the ter, are g fun a very siar way now. But who’s fun? And who gets to ci? Noah has two skeptics to nvce, myself and my lleague, Alex Kgsbury, edor at large for Tim Opn.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">All right, we’re here. Let’s do this. So Noah, the thst of your book is that progrsivism is on quote, unquote, “a moral csa” which is leadg to more misery society and ls fun.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">You are scribg somethg that I feel as as if as a human phenomena, which is people who want to tell other people to stop dog thgs that they would like them to stop dog. So like, what is about progrsivism specifilly? And how do you know that ’s progrsiv who have a war on fun and not jt, like — Tipper Gore was not a “progrsive,” quote, unquote? But the same people who wanted warng labels on rerd albums are still the same people that are mad about any var thgs that they’ve always been mad about.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All right, well, you would scribe that particular mpaign at the time as cultural nservatism, the ia that this was rptg an fluence on the youth, on the morals of the youth of the day. And that’s what this book scrib, a mystery, is that that kd of clatn to believe that cultural products, seemgly nocent cultural fair, tabloid trash you read, the terrible mic you listen to rpts you and gras society wr large. The left posned self opposn to that by emphasizg self-gratifitn, self-fulfillment.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The left that emerged om the sexual revolutn to domate culture and eventually domate polics fed self opposn to that sort of thg. And now, we’ve seen — the kd of cultural csas om the left ways that I thk would nfound and nfe anybody who is of my age, grew up that i which was the right that miststed your cultural products and the left that miststed those who miststed your cultural products. We no longer see that distct boundary that you’ve fed.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">alex kgsbury</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m terted how all this is scribed bee, the way I thk about the phenomenon is more an tersectn of morny wh polil ias, right? So one of the thgs that led to the Purans was the technology that allowed for the Prottant Reformatn, right? Ias get out there. Some people go crazy wh ias. Some people are more fanatil than others.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">What strik me — and Noah has a good thg about this the book — is that technology, now, we’re public figur om the moment we wake up and the moment we go to bed when we’re onle wh the cell phone right there. So no matter what your profsn is, you tersect wh the public square a way that people jt didn’t before. And what we’re seeg, I thk, is a lot of the rult of that expansn of the public square.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, let’s talk briefly about sports as one example of the many dtri that I scribe and the puranil tras that are at work adulteratg them. So the lerature on the puranil hostily towards the very nascent ceptn of what looks a ltle b to like football, but wasn’t really football, but still is close enough that we would regnize , we also regnize the arguments agast . It was profoundly vlent. It enuraged jgoism. It enuraged ivolo nsumer spendg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">A lot of the are siar arguments to what we are seeg om the puranilly cled left. It’s vlence. It was a subject of profound nsternatn the last . Ined, the game has been reformed to a gree that didn’t sacrifice s charm but mimiz some of that gratuo displays of athletic prows and the vlence their pursu.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But that is sendary, many ways, to what the crics of llegiate football and profsnal football marshal today, orr to anathemetize the sport. It is not important. It distracts you om your studi, which is a far more important e of your time. It enurag toxic masculy and vlence agast women, which is a surge on society.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And ultimately, the words of Noam Chomsky and his supporters, distracts om the great work of our time, which is to anize pursu of progrsive reforms. The siari are, to me, too difficult to ignore. And y, they did fd a home on the Amerin right, primarily on the Amerin right. We are all the heirs to this polil tradn, whether we like a lot. It’s jt progrsiv seem not to regnize themselv.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Noah, how much reach do you thk that Noam Chomsky has on most people who watch sports?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Would you say he’s a ge figure?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I would say that, for the people who watch sports who are probably not thkg about this, I would say that he is a ge figure. And I thk that he would probably say that he is a ge figure as , he’s Noam Chomsky. As you know, I got to wrg by verg sports. And the arguments back and forth about what sports means culture, that’s been gog on forever. As you note, the Purans rejected sports. But also, let’s keep md that early llege football was, fact, adly. And so, I want to emphasize that some thgs we do have to say, there are problems here. And I get the attractn to not do that. The most popular polil ial is to be that we are ol and fun. We are punk rock. We’re standg agast the tablishment.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I thk ’s very effective polilly to say that you are standg up agast the tablishment and beg fun and ol. But I also thk that there are thgs that are worth beg a stick the mud about. I thk that the sexual morés of the late 1960s and early 1970s was bad. It was not good. How people media and culture talked about sexual asslt or Bill Clton’s actns, to me, is, a way, where I don’t want that. There are gog to be moments which someone is — a lot of people are entertaed by somethg that many other people are gog to say like, that’s not good, or fun, or ol. And they will always sound to those people like Purans. But on some issu, they are rrect. How do you thk about that?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, rrect, sofar as where our society is at any particular time. I’m sympathetic towards a lot of this, bee a lot of is a redisvery of a nservative unrstandg of how societi should anize themselv. And my chapter on sex and booze, if that don’t sell books, I don’t know what will.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And that chapter, I’m probably most sympathetic towards this ia, which is this redisvery among — on the progrsive left that when you have suatns which men and women are prent a social engagement and is bathed alhol, bad thgs n happen. That’s not somethg that anybody really need to disver the year 2022. But is beg redisvered part, bee a generatn ago, there was a rebelln agast that ia, agast this staid, nformist ia that a puranil ethic, rponsible genr rol, and a certa distance om each other, and a propriety public was disuraged no longer.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">alex kgsbury</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Noah, your troductn to the book or one of the first chapters, you talk about how this is a phenomenon that the left is sort of adaptg s own ways. And I’m wonrg if you thk still exists on the right.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, my gosh, y.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">alex kgsbury</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And why is also not problematic that ntext, if is so newly problematic among people on the left?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, ’s polilly problematic. It is alienatg, particular, dividuals who are predisposed to support the progrsive ia, wr large. But is sappg them of enthiasm for their life’s work.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">They are liberal. They vote Democrat. They don’t support Republins. But they get up every morng not beg able to make lic food, go to work and talk about sports for a livg. They have to do polics. They don’t want to do polics. So ’s alienatg erstwhile alli, one regard.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And one of the biggt phbacks I get om people who are on the left and skeptil of this narrative is that, well, Republins are cultural revanchists too. Yeah, they are. And if I wrote a book about the old Purans, that would be a valuable sight. This is, I thk, a far more tertg story, bee ’s a newer story. It’s one that has yet to be told.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Republins are still wagg their culture wars. Some of the nventnal culture wars that I grew up wh, divorce, gay marriage, even abortn to a certa gree — although, ls so the immediate wake of Dobbs — had bee muted the Republin md.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Even — people fet, Donald Tmp, for example, me out 2016 favor of the North Carola bathroom law that allowed transgenr dividuals to e whatever bathroom they wanted. It was this cultural role reversal that helped the nventnal right, the moral majorarian right walk away om those culture wars and to the very onle environment that they now hab, where every culture war seems to exist for 30 sends, only to be fotten the send you get your hands around .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But are Republins cultural revanchists? Of urse they are. That’s not new. What’s new are progrsiv are jog them the fight.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I have a lot of thoughts here, bee seems to me that we are talkg about how people are reactg to, what I would say as a Christian, is the nature of fallen man. And what I would say as an Amerin is that people sometim are trash.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so, we see the — yeah, we’re talkg about how people are rpondg to the murr of Gee Floyd, or the murr of Ahmd Arbery, or the actual exampl of human ailty. And seems to me that, y, those reactns, pecially a vacuum, seem excsive and overweeng. And I also do not like beg told what to do. That’s why I’m a libertarian.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But when you’re talkg about a small fay bs that mak humm where they had to fire their dghter for makg racist and sanely anti-Semic ments on Twter, that was happeng the summer of 2020 Mnota after the murr of Gee Floyd. So much of this is about people reactg to the problems of human ailty, which we are now more wns to than ever before bee of vio. People are graspg for somethg. And I see this more of tryg to make sense of thgs that don’t make sense.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, let me fish that story for you. That grocer you mentned whose dghter he had to fire after a mob mand bee she ma racially sensive ments —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">She said that she was gog to fish the job that Hler started. It was not good.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Horrible ments, horrible ments but the ments of a child jt on the verge of adulthood. Neverthels, wasn’t what happened to her that was the problem. It’s what happened to him.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">He had his lease revoked. To be a ltle argumentative — although, this is the argument, so ’s the home for ntentn — there’s an element of nscensn to a lot of this that prum the executors of this moral mpaign to be somethg better than the targets of their activism.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Alex, if Noah’s argument is that progrsiv want to have ls fun — and I rema eply skeptil that nservativ want to have more fun, which I —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I do.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I do not thk so. I do not thk that is te, pecially bee I thk that there is no more powerful impulse polics than to say that we won’t tell you what to do. But we will tell the people you dislike most what to do.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But there’s this ia that I’ve been thkg about for years, which is that nservativ have polil power but want cultural power. And liberals have cultural power but don’t have polil power. Now obvly, that is very simplistic.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But I am cur as to how you read the power behd the quote, unquote “new Purans.” Where do they have power? Where don’t they have power? And what do any of this mean?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">alex kgsbury</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, I thk, the people that Noah scrib the book, I wouldn’t really want to hang out wh those people eher. They sound horrible. And I thk, if the bad thgs that he scrib, the sum total of all of the var different cints over all the different topics were one person, that person might not be a lot of fun to hang around, maybe, kd of a buzzkill.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But on the other hand, I thk that I jt don’t see this my normal life, that we’re livg some sort of rtricted Puran existence. In so many ways, the Uned Stat is eer now than has ever been. It’s more diverse. There are more people who have var sourc and posns of power and fluence, and on, and on, and on.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I sort of take the pot. But if I jt look around at the average existence of 340 ln Amerins, I jt — I thk that this is such a ge phenomenon that, while the dividual stanc are — ’s easy to take note of them. I don’t thk ’s reflective of the broar Amerin experience at this pot.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But I will say one thg really quick, bee I thk one thg that Noah do get right the book here — and bee I highlighted , I n read exactly, “the advot of this new value system” — that you’re talkg about here — “disurage huy and tolerance s practice.” And I thk that is somethg that we do see some evince of. I thk there is a certa tolerance, particularly the remptive arc that is available to people who have transgrsed some progrsiv.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Cancel culture is a bad phrase. But I thk the path to remptn isn’t obvly clear, a way that would have been clear for the Purans bee they were a relig anizatn that wanted to save souls. And the path to remptn was there. And I thk that some of what Noah keys on is right. There is an tolerance. But I jt don’t see as broadly as he do.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I want to foc on an argument that you ma about polics, which I thk, actually, gets to the heart of your book which is that no person or profsn n exist outsi polics anymore. Can you expla what you mean?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It is generally that polics properly unrstood, legislative affairs, electoral out has been muted the pursu of polil goals that target stutns and activi that exist outsi polics, are unrponsive to legislative affairs. And so, we have this misnceptn of what polics is, what polics is pable of. And that cult people who are beholn to this ia a kd of fatalism, bee they have nvced themselv of the utmost urgency of their view, the moral rectu of their view.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And yet, we have the stutns that are wholly unrponsive to their mands, which creat one of two psychologil ndns you. One, you rolve to jt bow out of the system bee ’s jt prsg you. And the send is to radilize. And what we’re left wh are the most radil, the most zealo, the most nvced of their rectu. And those are the people who are dictatg the terms of our natnal nversatn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I thk I’ve said that I agree some ways, bee I firmly believe that there is no polil platform that n solve the problem of people beg irratg to you. I’m remd of former Director of Natnal Intelligence unr Tmp, Richard Grenell, tweeted a while back a picture of a ggerbread person. Not a ggerbread man or a ggerbread woman, jt tweeted that was a ggerbread person. And add, stop votg for Democrats.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I found that so funny, bee jt the ia that, unr a Republin print, every bakery would have to clearly leate the genr of every sgle baked good.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk that your argument impli that people’s liv ed to be apolil. And then they beme polil. And I don’t thk that’s the se.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">For example, for my marriage — which is a light — to exist the state of Oh, a lot of people had to go to urt for 25 years. And so, what I’m askg is that people existg polics and the policizatn of everythg, as you see , is that a wing of the policizatn of everythg? Or is that more people are experiencg policizatn who weren’t before bee of a broang of who’s clud the nversatn?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m sure that, for many people, they’re like, no, I never ed to thk about gay marriage. And I’m like, yeah bee wasn’t a thg. I’m jt cur how you see that.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But gay people — Jane, I’m acceptg of gay people. So one pot that I’ve tried to make throughout this nversatn the book is there is a signifint distctn to be ma between the proper nduct of polics and the venu where polics belongs and the nduct of polics cultural venu that are unrponsive to legislative affairs. So how do we tease this?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">As we’re talkg about law and the amendg of legal nventns — which happens generally over the urse of many s, if not generatns. You wouldn’t get Obergefell before Wdsor. But maybe you wouldn’t have gotten Wdsor whout “Will and Grace.” But “Will and Grace” didn’t beat you over the head wh a ploddgly didactic narrative.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It created an entertament product. The cultural product here is distct om the polil oute, part, bee the cultural creators didn’t set out to make a polil pot. They set out to make an entertag product.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I would jt like — this is a d podst. But I would jt like the dience to know that I am lookg at you extremely askance.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And there’s nothg but affectn my look towards you. My ey, have ltle crow’s feet of affectn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I am — I’ve heard this argument before about “Will and Grace” and “Ellen” which, notably, Ellen lost her s bee she me out. I thk the bigger qutn that I’m tryg to get at — which we nnot answer today, and perhaps we uld not answer 1,000 hours of this podst — is, what is the purpose of ernment here?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Bee at a certa pot, you know, if you are a libertarian as I am, you regnize that some of the polici that I advote for would probably mean that thgs would be worse for other people some ways. And I’ll expla.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">If I want there to be fewer laws dictatg the nduct of other people, bee I believe that laws e wh the assumptn that they will be enforced by the state, and the state n kill you, that means that there will be thgs takg place that would no longer be illegal. But I still wouldn’t like them.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">To you, Alex, whether you thk that some liberals on the ter, are they tryg to regulate unacceptable acceptable behavr a way that the ernment jt shouldn’t or n’t?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">alex kgsbury</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, if you want to thk about a society where nothg was polil, like a theocracy, the Mass Bay Colony would be a good example of that, right? So I mean —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, nothg was polil. And everythg was polil.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But I thk that, when we see that there are stat that are attemptg to pass bills, sentially, sayg, we would want you to stop dog thgs that we do not like you dog. For example, when Florida Governor, Ron DeSantis, announced his “Stop Woke Act,” he ced all the cints of excsive wokens. And I am g air quot, bee ’s helpful on an d podst. And a bunch of them didn’t take place Florida.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And we’re startg to see some ernment who were sentially sayg, this thg that happened on the ter that I saw that went viral that libs of TikTok tweeted, we’ve got to do somethg about . The quote, unquote “new Purans” and the Purans of the right are both terted regulatg behavr that isn’t wrong. They jt fd irratg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, law, ernment, the venu which polics belong do not feature promently this book, both the cinc and the levers that are ed to affect the kd of cultural out that the new Purans prefer. In fact, the law is a guarantor of que a lot of those eedoms agast the imposns that would be ma on by the puranilly cled.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Let’s take Ron DeSantis as an example, bee he’s one of the few, I thk, that the more aggrsive cultural, revanchists on the right, policians proment posns actually rpond to this particular outlook ways that enlivens them. And he do ways that are ridiculoly unnstutnal.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The Florida legislature passg a law sayg that Donald Tmp needs to get back on Twter, a very unnstutnal law that said you uld roll through protters a ltle wh your r, if you like. No, ’s actually never OK to h a pestrian, no matter how much you might want to.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">This is the sort of thg that is guaranteed by the law. So the activism that I chronicle this particular book and, as you noted, exists outsi the law, do not e the levers of the state to effect s will, bee the levers of the state are af to them, are unrponsive to them. And long may be that way, bee when is not, we will regret .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Noah, to me, your book is about tra offs, as you’ve said, what we owe our fellow man, what we ci is OK society when to our needs, vers other people’s needs. And that is the great challenge of livg a society. Other people are weird, while you, yourself, are betiful and special and should have everythg you want.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m cur as to how you thk about, what’s the le between my eedom and someone else’s fort? Is there a happy medium? And how do you know where you fd ? Who gets to have fun?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">alex kgsbury</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You n take that one first, man. You jt wrote the book. I’ll let you go first.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, this is an old philosophil argument about when your liberty encroach on my liberty and the dividg le.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I believe ’s somethg about, punch, yeah. It’s the end of your nose or somethg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">noah rothman</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Y, this is a movg target, a shiftg target. But fortunately, the Constutn is not so changg, is far more af to this shiftg sands that you’re scribg. And slippery slop, that’s the sort of thg that I’m focg on this book which, I thk, is mostly a story of a seri of moral panics, many of which are entirely unproductive on the left, to a gree that I thk the left would reil at if they were to steep themselv this book and take a long look the mirror.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">This is not their nceptn of themselv. Their nceptn of themselv is rooted what my nceptn of the left was for most of my adult life, which was liberte, liberty lovg the personal realm, not the polil realm. And they would draw a distctn, a broad distctn between that which is polil and that which is social and cultural.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">alex kgsbury</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk ’s a plited qutn about where you draw any le between polics and environmentalism, or race relatns and sports. Are the thgs polil? Are they not?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So ’s important where you draw the le. But more importantly, I thk ’s who is drawg the le. And what we’ve seen the past 20, 30 years is an expansn of the people pable of drawg that le.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I thk has created a ltle b of disorientatn by the velocy of change, and the amount of people, and the typ of people that are exercisg the power of drawg that le between polics and somethg else, bee when you draw a le, that cis what’s si the le. But also cis what’s outsi the le. And I thk there’s jt a lot more people makg a lot more choic. And what we’re seeg is the realy of that.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Alex, Noah, thank you so much for jog me.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">alex kgsbury</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thanks, Jane.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jane aston</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">My pleasure, thank you. [MUSIC]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Alex Kgsbury is Edor at Large for Tim Opn and a member of the Tim Edorial Board. Noah Rothman is thor of “The Rise of the New Purans: Fightg Back Agast Progrsiv’ War on Fun.” He’s Associate Edor for “Commentary Magaze” and an MSNBC ntributor. I remend my last nversatn wh Noah back at Vox 2019 on the social jtice movement. You n fd lks to this our episo not.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">What do you thk of Noah’s argument? I’m very cur to hear what you thk. You n always send me an email at “The Argument” is the productn of New York Tim Opn. It’s produced by Phoebe Lett and Vishakha Darbha. Eded by Alison Bzek and Anabel Ban, wh origal mic by Isaac Jon and Pat McCker. Engeerg by Carole Sabourd, mixg by Pat McCker. Fact checkg by Mary Marge Locker. Audience strategy by Shannon Bta, wh edorial support om Krista Samulewski.</p></dd></dl></div></div></div></div><div style="posn:absolute;width:0;height:0;visibily:hidn;display:none"></div><hear class="css-1vwfk9f" data-breakpot=""><div style="width:100%" data-ttid="flt-layout"><div style="background-image:url()" class="css-18qqsen e1llfg0"><div class="css-1hmsypo e1llfg2"><div class="css-131hid3 e1llfg3"><div class="css-1uhi299 e1llfg1"></div><div class="css-1tloyb6"><div class="css-1kltdsh ehra6vc0"><a href=" class="css-2ne0py"><span class="css-1f76qa2"><img alt="The Argument logo" src="><span>The Argument</span></span></a><span class="css-1lhttlg ehra6vc1"><span class="css-sj5ozi ehra6vc2">Subscribe:</span><ul class="css-hx5n"><li><a href=" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Apple Podsts</a></li><li><a href=" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Google Podsts</a></li></ul></span></div></div><div class="css-1r0dpua e1llfg4"><div class="css-1gu519p edye5kn0"><div><h1 class="css-1xbyom1 edye5kn2">A View From the Right on Progrsiv’ ‘Moral Csa’</h1><h2 class="css-rlih edye5kn3">Noah Rothman and Alex Kgsbury bate whether the left actually has a problem wh fun.</h2></div><span class="css-lsnb14 edye5kn4"></span><button type="button" class="css-w62hzm" aria-haspopup="te" aria-label="Show Aud Transcript"><div class="css-1vd84sn"><svg xmlns=" width="24" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 20" fill="#F8F8F8"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M0 0H24V20H0V0ZM3 7H21V9H3V7ZM21 11H3V13H21V11ZM3 15H21V17H3V15ZM11 3H3V5H11V3Z" fill="#F8F8F8"></path></svg><span class="css-16bt4xd">Transcript</span></div></button></div><div class="css-1g7y0i5 e1drnplw0"><button tabx="100" class="css-1rtlxy" type="button" aria-label="close"><svg width="60" height="60" viewBox="0 0 60 60" fill="none"><circle cx="30" cy="30" r="30" fill="whe" fill-opacy="0.9"></circle><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M38.4844 20.1006L39.8986 21.5148L21.5138 39.8996L20.0996 38.4854L38.4844 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M21.5156 20.1006L20.1014 21.5148L38.4862 39.8996L39.9004 38.4854L21.5156 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path></svg></button><div class="css-rdbib0 e1drnplw1"></div><div class="css-18ow4sz e1drnplw2"><div aria-labelledby="modal-tle" role="regn"><hear class="css-1bzlfz"><div class="css-mln36k" id="modal-tle">transcript</div><button type="button" class="css-1igvuto"><div class="css-f40pzg"></div><span>Back to The Argument</span></button><div class="css-f6lhej" data-ttid="transcript-playback-ntrols"><div class="css-1ialerq"><button tabx="99" type="button" class="css-1t9gw" aria-label="play"><svg xmlns=" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M8 13.7683V6L14.5 9.88415L8 13.7683Z" fill="var(--lor-ntent-sendary,#363636)"></path><circle cx="10" cy="10" r="9.25" stroke="var(--lor-stroke-primary,#121212)" stroke-width="1.5"></circle></svg></button><div class="css-1701swk"><svg xmlns=" viewBox="0 0 40 36" id="el_0kpS9qL_S"><tle>bars

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