bars</tle><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_65hRV2Qwn" class="css-1fxvzwo" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_ILVvi2tqx" class="css-1wnday1" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC"><rect x="34" width="6" height="36" id="el_qw_T_tngXw"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_p_9Pm85Ac" class="css-fwki7z" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_WxG3R40yd" class="css-t3i5e6" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU"><rect x="22.67" width="6" height="36" id="el_lf9GrROk6j"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_kYNRGDfcw" class="css-t9te0w" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_3c3bzSjOJ" class="css-1r5375t" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw"><rect x="11.33" width="6" height="36" id="el_-iueO8klO0"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_y_fKcpSxn" class="css-qknaag" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_R6bNB6_Ys" class="css-1vd04" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC"><rect width="6" height="36" id="el_dS5TKNZZ5w"></rect></g></g></g></svg></div><div><div class="css-1t7yl1y">0:00<!-- -->/<!-- -->1:18:27</div><div class="css-og85jy">-<!-- -->1:18:27</div></div></div></div></hear><div class="css-uzyn7p"><div class="css-1vxyw"><p class="css-1nng8z9">transcript</p><h2 class="css-9wqu2x">Genr Is Complited for All of Us. Let’s Talk About It.</h2><h4 class="css-qsd3hm">A distguished profsor helps me unrstand our plited — and changg — culture around genr.</h4><time dateTime="2022-08-05T09:00:08.000Z" class="css-1e605">2022-08-05T05:00:08-04:00</time></div><dl class="css-p98d0w"><dt class="css-xx7kwh"></dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m Ezra Kle. This is “The Ezra Kle Show.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t thk anythg our society is changg as fast right now as ias about genr. In 2014, Facebook gave people at least 58 genrs to choose om. In 2016, Tr add 37 genrs. In 2019, Merriam-Webster named the personal pronoun “they” their word of the year.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Corporatns, they don’t lead on thgs like this. They follow. They rpond. And they particularly follow the young. And that’s very much the se here. There’s an explosn young people intifyg as genr nonnformg var ways.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">There’s a real difference how genr is beg treated by people who are 16 than by people who are 66. But where there’s change, there’s backlash. We’re seeg so-lled “Don’t Say Gay” bills. We’re seeg a lot of vlence agast trans people. We’re seeg a lot of efforts to pat people who are tryg to live a different life, or jt tryg to live their own life, as predators, as threats.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And polics, for s part, and the media, foc on the hard s, the on most likely to cleave apart, the qutns of NCAA-champnship swimmers, or what precisely we should do when an 11-year-old wants to medilly block puberty. And I’m not sayg those qutns don’t serve attentn, that they aren’t real, that they’re not important or hard.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But I do thk they lead , sometim, to skip a few steps. Bee at the base of this nversatn is a more fundamental ia, one that I thk people know even if they don’t want to know , or even if they don’t want to know that they know : Genr is weird. It’s weird if you’re queer. It’s weird if you’re straight. It’s weirst when we terrogate least. And so I wanted to have a nversatn more about the base layer of the genr qutn, the one that affects all of , and most of all, those of fully at home the stori we’ve been told about genr.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Now we are makg a distctn this nversatn — I’m gog to oversimplify here — between genr, which is the psychologil and cultural exprsn of who we are, at least on this dimensn, and sex, which is about blogil differenc, ually between men and women, and sexual orientatn, which is about who we’re attracted to. But this is primarily a nversatn about genr, which I thk is flux, almost no matter what you believe about those other qutns.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so my gut today is Kathryn Bond Stockton. She’s a distguished Profsor of English, focg on genr studi at the Universy of Utah, and the thor of the book, “Genr(s).” There’s a playfulns and an openns to her wrg and her thkg that I don’t jt value as a rear, but that I thk stands as an example of the kd of world she and many others are tryg to create.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And that, a way, is what I wanted to get out of this nversatn, a clearer sense of, what is the world that people who are tryg to break open the genr bary, people tryg to create space for 37 or 58 genrs, what kd of world are they tryg to build? What is gaed that world? What might be lost ? As always, my email, </p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Kathryn Bond Stockton, wele to the show.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hello, Ezra. Pleasure to be wh you.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I want to start wh your personal experience of genr. And then we’ll expand outward. What was like for you to feel like you were born to the wrong sex and genr?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’d say ially, very nfg. So this was jt te for me at such an early age, ’s hard for me to even put a number on , jt my ept sense of nscns was. I always say there were two thgs that I felt to be te about me: that I felt I was a boy, and nobody else seemed to be unrstandg that or grantg that, and I wanted to kiss girls. And I thk that might be helpful for people to realize, that for some of , happens so early, is lerally the ept and most-faiar thg we know about ourselv.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I thk I would e the word “puzzlement” first bee was very hard to unrstand why nobody else around me uld see that I was a boy. How is this not evint? Why is this not allowed?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">No one uld really expla that to me. There was jt always a sort of ep-seated rponse, your a girl. That’s how is. You n play wh boys. You n do some boy thgs. But then you have to wear drs and do the other thgs as well. So I thk I was nfed and bewilred about my circumstance.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And how did that evolve for you? Today you e she/her pronouns. I’ve heard you scribe your ial genr as a dandy butch, which I love. How has your relatnship to your own genr changed over time?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, ’s been a long arc. So I would say, out of that kd of ccible of childhood — which of urse, there were many happy thgs gog on my childhood. But that is so fundamental to how you walk the world, that not beg able to be a boy — so as I say, havg latu early childhood to do many thgs wh my boy iends, lots of sporty thgs and so forth, I sometim say my wrg that I was a girl by day and a boy by night.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Now that don’t mean that durg the day I didn’t thk I was a boy. I did. But I had to go to school. And by the dictat of the Board of Edutn at that time, or at least om everythg I unrstood, I had to wear a drs. So I always felt like a boy a drs at recs. And at recs is when I uld kd of let go, and play baseball and dodge ball and all the thgs, and really play wh the boys, but then gog back after recs, havg to be a girl aga.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So ’s this very strange temporal spl between day and night bee as soon as I would get home om school, I would throw off those girl cloth. I would be my boy cloth. And I’d be out the neighborhood, playg wh my iends.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So that lasted up till about sixth gra. And I thk probably, as anybody n relate to, when you’re gog to go to junr high, that seems like you were steppg across a whole new thrhold. And for me, I gus I would have to e the word “terrifyg.” I uld not see how this was all gog to e together. I uldn’t believe that I might have to do somethg like wear stockgs, which jt seemed horrific to me, have to wear a bra, have to sort of go eper to the archive of female clothg. That, to me, was very distrsg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Probably, to go much farther than the begng of junr high, we would have to get to the moment where I enter to a relig mment. And that would sort of take to a new directn of this nversatn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m here for . What was your relig mment?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, so I am one of those unual people who was raised Unarian by 2 left-leang, Democratic, Unarian parents, but very much formed by their time, as I thk they would say. And I met an evangelil girl who was the most betiful girl I had ever met. And I thought she also seemed smart and tertg and funny, and she played stments. And she was good at sports.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I had a great admiratn gog there. And at some pot, began to click for me that by acceptg J my heart — that was the language of the time, still is for some people — that some ways, that uld be proof to me that I was a good person, bee unfortunately, by that time, I had heard that homosexuals — that was the word play — homosexuals were evil. And I was tryg to figure out how the world, though I did not feel myself to be evil at all, how the world I uld fd a place where I uld feel good.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The other tertg effect of evangelilism, as I’ve tried to expla, is that many ways, evangelilism kd of nfirmed, advanced and tapulted me to my own queerns. So this might be strange for people to hear. But evangelil Christiany was a rcue for me bee, part, of the sex segregatn. The pky boys go one way. The girls go the other way. And I got to go wh the girls.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And a very tertg way, particularly early on, I felt like a boy ncealed a girl gang. And I felt that I would be learng to bee a gay girl by beg evangelil. So lots of trigug ntradictns wh that move.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I want to go back to the experience you related about feelg, on the playground, like a boy a drs, bee a dizzyg way, I thk that’s a good place for some of who haven’t had the experience to be able to empathilly accs . One of the thgs I thk about a lot, the nversatns people have about genr, is the salience has for some and not others. It seems some people don’t thk about at all. And others, is the overridg fact of their liv.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But if — thkg back to myself as a kid, ankly, even now, if you had me put on a drs, I would be nsc of nothg else, particularly as a kid on the schoolyard. And that would be a kd of vlent disptn of my normal relatnship between how I look my md, and how I believe I’m expected to be, and then how I would be prentg the world.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And sounds to me a b like what you’re sayg is that ’s the same the verse of that, to be a boy and a drs when you are expected to be a girl is not that different om beg, a way, a boy and a drs when you’re expected to be a boy.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, yeah, that’s an tertg qutn. And a way, when you n’t be somethg, right, and you’re told over and over that you’re a girl, on some level, a faiary velops wh that, right? Though I n say was so permeated my life that ’s hard to remember anythg where I wasn’t sort of obssed wh that. But you do have to kd of fally beg navigatg around the cloth you mt wear.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And ed, I often wore jumpers to school. You know, so I’d throw a jumper over a turtleneck, easier to throw off at the end of the eveng. And I remember havg a drs that I was very fond of bee my mother lled my sword drs. It had a sword on the belt. And she was sort of able to nvce me that Rob Hood would be proud to wear this jumper.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So there’s a way which I thk my mom very sweetly and tenrly unrstood somethg about this. But aga, ’s not a problem, particularly that time perd, that a parent uld solve for me. And so many ways, on the playground, I had to sort of wrap my md around what I was wearg and ncentrate on what I was dog. But I will tell you, as I remember, a particular terror.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It would always be on Sunday when we would e home om the Unarian church. This is before I had peeled off and was hangg wh the evangelils. And I’d be wearg patent-leather sho. And I jt remember jt the steel-ld horror my heart of thkg that any of my boy iends the neighborhood would see me get out of that r. And I would lerally n om the r to the hoe bee that sense of shame was so severe.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk a lot of people have a sense that genr is difficult and tertg for the people who are round pegs square cultural hol. And your argument isn’t genr is queer — ’s weird for everyone, and maybe even more so for those who accept their genr fully and don’t nsir at all an tertg topic. So what do you mean by that?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">One of the thgs I was que passnate to prent is that genr is queer, as I say, for everyone. And by that I don’t mean LGBTQ. I mean that other fn of queer. So if you look queer up the dictnary, the dictnary ed to say risive term for homosexual. Well, I thk the risn has fallen off. I thk many queers are happy to say that they’re queer.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But that other fn is simply strange. And ’s that part of the fn that I want to pick up, and basilly thk about genr at large, that I don’t thk genr, the end, really is easy for anybody. People may feel that they go through perds of ease. And you might have felt that you weren’t thkg of every mute of the day, and I was.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But many ways, the norms of genr are impossible to live for anybody, the norms that pretend to be ial. And I wanted to pick up on that thought the book, and help my rear unrstand stanc of how that might be te.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Let’s tether this a b to some ncrete exampl. So take a — I don’t know. Take a 53-year-old man Wyomg. He driv a tck. He wears pants. He’s married to a woman. He feels fortable as a man. He don’t thk much about genr. What is queer about his genr?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well aga, I thk what is queer is that everybody, at some pot, will fail their genr expectatns. Now jt bee that person seems to be kd of walkg easily through the world, we don’t know what they’re thkg at every moment. So right, may be te for that Wyomg man that day by day, not too much trma or thkg about genr.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But there n be moments where, if he starts to feel that he fails the expectatns of masculy, or has terts thgs that are not classilly mascule, that may feel that he is sort of at the tip of a sharp pot, as were, of the ials of genr and genr expectatns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk you really rightly pot out there the anxiety of genr. I’m somebody who’s fairly fortable my own genr, but have had more stanc than I n unt of wonrg whether or not what I’m dog, at any given moment, is the man thg to do. But I’m also terted the other si of the queerns there, which is, all the signifiers that are pletely —</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t exactly want to ll them random, but what exactly a tck has to do wh a penis, or pants, for that matter —</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">there’s jt a lot about performg malens that’s pretty peculiar. And what’s often tertg to me about is that stops beg so. I mean, that’s te om across a ln different areas of life.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But I always thk that the weirdns of our life is most tertg when we cease to realize that is weird, when jt be, well, of urse the thgs all go together. And then when you beg to look at them, you thk, well, why? Why do any of them go together?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And your example too, we’d have to ask about the racializatn of our Wyomg man, right? So is he a whe guy Wyomg, which n play out very differently, the expectatns surroundg his masculy as opposed to somebody who is Lato Wyomg, or somebody who is a Black man drivg a tck Wyomg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So those are the thgs that I beg to thk about this book, is that there’s so many different thgs that are teractg wh that thg that we kd of falsely isolate as genr, right? And what is the teractn of those elements that produc eher a sense of ease or a sense of ncern and anxiety, as you said?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk part of what we’re seeg our culture is there’s tremendo anxiety surroundg boys, young men. And I have to image that don’t really end later life. Sometim, later life, we all kd of get ed to thgs and we chill. But I have a feelg that the thgs do rema of ncern bee they’re so extremely bound.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And that’s where if you watch somethg like “Fight Club,” or watch other cultural products, they kd of get at the strange way which, particularly, whe men sort of pated themselv to a rner. It’s a whole seri — masculy be a whole seri of thgs you n’t do, otherwise you will be danger of losg your mascule stat. And that seems tertg to me.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So then let’s take a 15-year-old — I live San Francis — a 15-year-old who liv down the block om me, who intifi as nonbary, who the pronoun they, who drs a more androgyno way, what’s queer about their genr?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, fely, as they walk through the world, if, to other people’s sight l — if they’re enunterg sighted people and people are seeg them drs a nonnformg way, that’s gog to be noticed. And then the qutn is, how do that affect that particular dividual? Is beg nstantly noticed by other people, possibly havg star of displeasure, sometim acclaim, how is that gog to be affectg that dividual?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Bee whenever you enter to a place where you’re sort of crossg agast genr norms — and I’m gog to say particularly for the people we ll men and boys — then I thk there’s all kds of possibily to have to, aga, I gus I’ll e the word navigate that one’s life.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The fact that person is intifyg as nonbary, you might have to know more about why they make that intifitn. Is that somethg that feels, like, jt eply rooted om everythg they’ve known? Has that been a more recent sense that they’ve e to? Do they have a sense of glee and exuberance embracg that or is there a sense of trepidatn? There uld be so many different emotnal registers surroundg the dividual you jt briefly scribed.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Let’s talk about an ia, then, that you have the book, which you ll ne of genr. And I thk ’s a helpful metaphor. So n you talk a b about the ne of genr, and then how and why we fortify ?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. So one of the thgs that’s strikg that we still see and we still do, is that we do, sence — of urse, ’s a metaphor — lower a ne over the baby at birth. So when we say ’s a boy, ’s a girl, we seem to be sayg who that child is a very profound way. And let’s not fet that for a very long time history, still many plac, we also nceive of the as oppose sex.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So one sense, ’s like we lower a ne on the baby. And that is gog to be your ne. And is not gog to be easy to get that ne off of you. Tst me. I tried childhood. I said everythg I uld possibly say. I tried to display all the boy behavrs I knew to display. And I uld not get that ne off of me. So ’s a very rigoro thg that surrounds the child.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Now thk about . It’s sort of tertg that we feel that we have to fortify somethg that many people believe is jt a natural thg and will naturally exprs self. It’s as if culturally, we’re very secure. And even though we say the boy and girl tegori are highly natural, we’ve attached them to the genals, that’s jt simply who the children are, right om the get go, we’re genrg a child and producg a kd of genr fortifitn of that sex that the baby n’t see and the baby don’t know.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I thk that’s very tellg that we don’t somehow tst what we say is a natural, unfoldg velopment for the child. We’re there puttg a bow on the newborn’s hair. We’re there creatg lor schem for the child. We’re there givg toys. That to me is very strikg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’ve been thkg, readg the book, about moments my life where got fortified. And one, there’s an stant for me that I’ve actually never fotten. And I have a crap memory, jt a terrible memory of my own childhood. So there aren’t that many of them.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But I was a pretty lonely kid. I had a lot of trouble makg iends for a very, very long time. And I want to say this was third gra. This kid moved to my school, and we beme very fast iends, a kid named Tommy. And I was so grateful that had happened. And one of my parents had taken to get ice cream.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And we’re gettg out of the r. And I remember very, very clearly, I went to hold Tommy’s hand. And my parent me to me and said, very kdly, right — I had very lovg parents — hey, boys don’t do that. You don’t hold each other’s hands.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I never fot that moment. One, I was a b embarrassed. But two, ’s always jt stck me as credibly weird.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And then later, I realized girls do hold each other’s hands. And ’s jt a funny moment of somethg that really has nothg to do wh whatever somebody might want to ll sex. It’s purely a cultural expectatn, which is different other untri. If you go to the Middle East, men do hold hands.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Y, absolutely.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And you know, and I had no say , really. And I, to this day, don’t hold my iend’s hands. [LAUGHS] And to the whole thg, I mean, to your pot about genr is queer, even if you’re — even for those of who thk we’re playg straight, like, ’s very queer.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mm-hmm. And those moments are so fg, aren’t they? I mean, the fact that you remember that, though, as you say, you don’t have a good memory, that stands out to you bee that one moment kd of chased you off that possibily, right? That was like, not jt a light bsh back, but really was sendg a very strong msage to you, whatever was tend, right?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">We don’t the tent. The tent might have been gentle. I’m sure was well-meang. But the way that operated for you was to be a remr throughout your life. And this is where I thk we have to unrstand, for children, that the msag to children are extremely heavy and extremely powerful.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And some of them, you don’t fet. You only need one experience to be told what n and nnot be, and some ep, weird, operative sense of shame rolls over you and may stay wh you for a very long time. So children, of urse, are imbibg the msag at a very young age, and I would say to a tremendo extent.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And that’s where we do have to be aware. In the current nversatn, this ia that we should not be talkg about children’s genr or sexualy until, I don’t know, third gra, sixth gra, whatever people are thkg, but we’re kd of skippg lightly over the fact that we have ma boys and girls, om birth, whout their nsent, and that we have been fortifyg that genr at every turn. So there’s some fascatg ntradictns that surround what we say relatnship to children.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I had an experience recently as a parent. My olr son is three. And he’s very stereotypilly male, the way that, as liberal parents out on the Wt Coast who have tried to be pretty genr ntral how we raise our kids, mak you wonr a b more about sentialism. But he ador tcks and roughhog and lasers and firefighters and of urse fireworks.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And on July 4, he was so exced for the fireworks. And he me to me and my wife. And he looked at , and really excedly said that he need a drs so he uld look betiful for the fireworks.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I had this very-tense moment as a parent where you realize, oh, whatever I say next, this is how genr gets munited, or maybe not munited. But ’s exactly the pletely-discrete stanc.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, those n be watershed moments, I mean, might not be. But given that your child is sayg somethg to you that I take you hadn’t heard before — am I unrstandg that rrectly?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That is rrect.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, that is a watershed moment, certaly for you.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Y, that was distctive.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, aga, thk of how, early on, children are learng the plited thg we ll language. I mean, that blows me away. And mt be really strikg, as a parent, to watch that happen, kids takg on words and then formg sentenc and then sort of unrstandg how grammar works as they speak the language.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">No ls are they imbibg all the other systems and signs around them. So happens very early on. And I thk to your pot, as I try to say the book, genr is really occurrg at two very different levels, many more bis, but certaly at the level of system and at the level of word.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So that sense, as I say the book, ’s almost like genr to om on high. And therefore, you know, parents don’t ntrol a child’s genr. There are many other factors si your child’s genrg than what the parents — what msag they’re givg or how they might be talkg to a child.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And then, of urse, si the very words that the child is learng to speak, or the imag that se, or watchg how people drs around them, they are imbibg that to an astonishg gree. And that produc, aga, very strong and tertg effects. Now what your child means when they say I want to wear a drs, that will be fascatg to see. What is that an ditn of? Wantg somethg that perhaps they see, like, why should that be off lims?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk kids would probably, unrstandably, wonr, why n’t I have accs to that thg? Why n I only have accs to the thgs? And this might be a time perd which children would image that they should have greater latu.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And of urse, he se his mom, when she’s drsg up, put on a drs to look betiful.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right, absolutely.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It really stuck wh me. It ma my genr feel so much weirr to me than his. I’m still thkg about — why do I never wear any clothg that is flowy? My wife has boo boos, has drs, has kimonos, has rob. I’m not a big bathrobe person.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But really got me thkg about how men wear — at least this culture — wear almost no flowg clothg, no clothg that is loose enough to flow. And ’s jt really peculiar.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[LAUGHS]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, and I mean, to your pot, this culture — I mean, I thk that’s a really important pot bee of urse, before the rise of pla-style clothg for men the 19th century, centuri before that, you have men nng around powred wigs, men of a certa class of urse, and men nng around powred wigs and very ornamental, betiful clothg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But, right. What your child is seeg is a sort of difference clothg that seems a ltle more ornamental, a ltle more trigug, a ltle more rative, and might want that, but then associat that wh your partner, and seeg that clothg that way, and don’t see that type of clothg on you. And the qutn is, hey, why n’t I have some of that bety?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s where — and aga, knowg nothg about your child or where your child may be head life — as I would talk to some of my gay male iends who really wanted accs, some ways, to girls clothg — I mean, some did. Some didn’t.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Certaly, folks who end up later prentg as trans women may have talked about this childhood, jt the way which the thgs were so pletely off lims, and wantg to feel betiful. Now this may have changed dramatilly.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But girls who beme queer talkg about a feelg of shame. Like, you put me those girls’ cloth, and I felt shame. Boys, aga, sort of talkg about, I jt wanted to have cloth that were betiful. I wanted to feel betiful. And I didn’t unrstand why I uldn’t have those cloth.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">There’s a fascatg asymmetry there between what the girl is sayg, what the person assigned girl is sayg wh the person assigned boy is sayg that moment.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I want to talk about another emotnal layer of here. Somethg that is very strikg to me about your book and your work is the emphasis form as well as ntent on playfulns. And you e the word a uple of tim, but also jt the way is wrten. And what seemed to me, as a rear, you’re tryg to do, is teract wh this playfully.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And we’re so ed to very, very hard qutns of genr that bubble up to polics, where ’s really adly ser — and we’re often talkg about hate crim or bills or surgeri or thgs that are really, really tough nversatns — that the ia that uld be a ltle b more playful, that we’ve taken somethg that uld be a space of some experimentatn and some openns, and locked down for no, at least totally obv reason, is an tertg provotn.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so I wanted to see if you uld talk a b about playfulns to you, and how teracts, or maybe don’t teract, wh the ias.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s very strikg to me that aga, childhood, I did have this opportuny to be able to play boy ways so that my play scene gave me a lot of power, gave me a lot of eedom. It was only later, as I’ve narrated, the kd of move om elementary school, where you do have recs, to junr high, where thgs felt more ser, more locked down. You do not want to make one possible misstep.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I thk that sense of play, of urse, is age related. No surprise, we do associate children wh play. And ’s tertg. Workg wh stunts now — aga, stunts of lor, queer stunts, queer stunts of lor — often, stunts are sayg how fearful they feel of walkg to a classroom, terms of what rponse they’re gog to get.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I had been a vice print for diversy here at the Universy of Utah. So I would work wh a lot of stunt groups and listen to stunts. And I really did a lot of ep-seated listeng. In my head, sometim I was tryg on for size.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But I jt didn’t know if this would be the strategy, of me, as an olr, whe, queer person, of thkg, I n see your bety. If you walk to that classroom, I would love for you to be able to say, I am so betiful. I am so righteo. The ias that I want to share wh you are so pellg. I dare you to whstand this bety.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That was the sense that I would love to nvey, and to say, remember that I will be by your si, maybe not that classroom. But I am also holdg your bety for you bee I n see . I’m here to share ias wh you.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I love the ia of sctn. So if you talk to people who know me, they will say that I am all about this ia of tellectual sctn. I’m gog to share my views. And aga, my heart, I’m gog to feel — they seem so tertg to me. I n’t picture that you won’t fd them powerful.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so I thk that might be the sense of playfulns that you fd my wrg. And I would jt also say, I’m Utah. I’m a red state. Sctn was my mo om the begng, om 1987, to e to the classroom and to absolutely assume that many of the stunts are gog to disagree wh me. They’re gog to disagree wh what they nsir to be my liftyle, right? They might like me. But they might not like the fact that I’m gay.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m gog to need a mo to be able to share ias this passnate, ep-seated, 15 weeks at a time sense wh stunts.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m terted the e of the past tense that answer. And nnects to somethg I’ve been wonrg. One of the thgs I’m gog to weave and out of this nversatn is a qutn of, what world are we or you attemptg to build here? What do a world where genr is opened up look like?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And one qutn I have is whether is playful and open, or whether ’s actually jt more performanc. And one reason I’ve thought about that is, I have a lot of iends who are gay. I’ve read, as a lot of people did over the last year, “Detransn, Baby.” And sometim strik me that the plac where genr is most qutn — or at least normative genr is most beg rejected — the l of genr performance often seem to tighten rather than loosen.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">They maybe bee somethg different. But they’re very, very petive. And don’t seem to me that my iends those muni — there’s a certa amount of playfulns. But there’s also a lot of prsure. And so I wonr if this all has a tenncy to dissolve down to different versns of the thg that people are often tryg to reject, which is overly-rigid l and expectatn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It n be. I’ll put this way. It n be rigid queer muni, right? Or you uld have — and this uld be rigid or playful — a kd of expansn of fixy. So part of what I love about Marlon Bailey’s great book, you know, “Butch Queens Up Pumps,” where he talks about Black, gay, and trans ballroom culture, and talks about the six different tegori that we created si the ballroom culture that he was studyg Detro.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I scribe that my book as a kd of expansn of fixy. And ’s based on performance norms, so right to your pot. Now you uld see that as rigid. Or you uld see that as playful. Or you uld see as sort of drawg on both some way. But I certaly know what you’re talkg about. There n be ntexts — I’ve been some ntexts over time that do strike me as fairly locked down, even though they’re meant to be queer. Now aga, that word queer, I thk, is very helpful bee is such a stretchy term. Strange uld mean so many different thgs to so many different people.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I, of urse, as you n tell om my wrg and what I argue, I would like to see go to the very playful place. And I thk at tim, we have been a very playful place. I do thk that there has been, as I like to say, a brilliance to queer muni and muni of lor, and where they overlap, to create whole new taxonomi and classifitns. That’s what I was sort of givg the book, that I’m a dandy butch. And my partner lls herself a femist farm femme.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">There’s a playfulns to that. But we’re also kd of ser. But I hope, across the scene of genr, that we would allow for a looseng, a creativy, a kd of rt of surface performanc, drsg different ways, dog thgs wh hair. I always jt love to see somebody who’s dog somethg wh their hair. Whether ’s like the bt hairdo for them or not, I’m like, ol. You are dog somethg wh that hair.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I am all about . I’m entertaed by that. I feel gleeful seeg that.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I thk across the scene, we need a looseng. Will that necsarily mean that genr be loose and fluid for every sgle person? It will not — bee we do have our preferenc and our predilectns for the ways that we want to drs and prent, right? So I thk sometim passn to the equatn bee for some people, they are very passnate about a particular performance that giv them pleasure. Yay, I say.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And other people — and I know some people who really drs wildly differently, have very different hairstyl om time to time. And that’s somebody who absolutely tak pleasure kd of curly formg new surfac over time. What we don’t want to have, I thk — and this is what we’ve had for a very long time, certaly what I had childhood — we don’t want thgs locked down on people whout their nsent, whout vg them to experiment and fd what seems right to them, what seems pleasurable to them.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So to get away om that problem of cidg for people, and really back to your pot about the lowerg of the ne, and then you have to go through all the tremendo difficulti to get the ne off of you, I would love to see that e to an end. And one other thgs I hope would change is that we would learn to enunter people’s surface prentatns wh a sense of ep cursy and huy.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m really tryg to tra myself to do this. I am a sighted person. So when somebody walks past me on the siwalk, I n feel that my bra is firg away. I’m seeg them as whe or male or this or that. And I’m really tryg to stop myself and say, OK, I see this surface prentatn ont of me.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">If should be my opportuny to talk wh this person, I’m gog to do ep-seated listeng. Maybe they want to tell me somethg about their inty. Maybe they don’t. But my job, as I get to know them, will be to do that ep-seated listeng over time, to listen for the words that are important to them.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Some of those may attach to ltle stori and narrative as you’ve been dog. Maybe I’m really gog to get to know this person like I know my partner, and we’re gog to be the nstant unfoldg of narrative arcs that we create together and separately. But I’d love to see sever the surface that we see om the prumptns that we make, and not to image that certa surface forms, whatever they may be, have certa ntents gog on behd their ey.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I love your le on seeg somebody who’s dog somethg to their hair, thkg, oh, good for you. I always, as somebody who really enjoys other people’s stylistic experimentatns, and functnally never engag any myself, I always feel like a ep ee rir on other people’s ntributns to athetics and cultural diversy.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And hopefully, I would say giv you pleasure not to. If that’s not somethg that’s your jam, you’re not dog . I’m gog to rpect that. And you’re happy you’re not dog . So that would be my hope, is that people, through this experimentive playful procs childhood and beyond — I mean, my goodns. Why do we jt nsign play to children? Why do we not allow playfulns to extend?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Now I thk we do. There are a lot of adults who enjoy vio gam, for example, or sports of all kds that are forms of play. Problem is, later life, those thgs kd of get a palist around them, right? They get a certa type of serns, a real vtment wng or failure, that I thk n be trimental to certa forms of play.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I want to go back to what you had said about the profn of tegori. So 2014, Facebook gave people 58 genrs to choose om. In 2016, Tr add 37 genrs.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">One of the impet for this nversatn is, genr feels, to me, like the major space of our time unrgog the most rapid change, that is a place where, even pared to what I knew of at 18, there are spac here that are unregnizable to me at 38. Why now? How do you unrstand what is changg genr at this moment?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s such a good qutn. I gus some of the thgs that I would say is, first and foremost, is sort of the bravery of the few, for a long time, g out to the other forms, whether they were makg a statement or not, but let’s say g out as gay, for a long time, g out as trans. Now tertgly enough — I have to give a veat there. Judh Butler wr about this a very important way — is that g out isn’t always jt like a liberatory thg — I’m gay; I’m ee; here I am; I’m a trans woman — bee g out, as she poted out — and I thk ’s a brilliant pot — we often e out to the arms of the law, and to other people’s fns, particularly society’s fns.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So early on, 1987, when I me out, when I me to the Universy of Utah, I wanted to be out the classroom. I wasn’t kiddg myself that I was liberatg myself some way wh my stunts bee I felt, many ways, I am steppg out to the arms of the law and to the fns my stunts rry, many of which were given by the law. But for me, I always had a phrase my head. I want you to see who you won’t protect. And at that perd of time, I was a sodome by state law. But I was employed by the state, all right? So one thg I really want to honor, as I say, the bravery of those people who have e out any which way, and have braved the strong arm of the law.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sendly, I would say — and I thk this one’s profound — people g out fai. So gay folks, queer folks, g out their fai, trans folks g out their fai, nonbary, genr-nonnformg people g out their fai, that has had a massively transformative effect. Now obvly, people get kicked out of their fai. I’m livg Utah. And some of that stuff is still happeng. I thk still happens all over this untry.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But many s, fai were nonted wh somethg that they had not thought eply about before, and many s, say, a fay relatnship to their gay male son, or their now trans dghter. It’s hard to say that, mm, yterday I loved you when I thought you were straight, or when I thought you were not trans. And I’m gog to stop lovg you now?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So many fai have had to kd of e around, wrap their md around this. And many fai have bee fierce fenrs and advot of their kids, terms of whatever their kids are tellg them. So that’s ma a huge difference, right?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But — n I talk to you for one send? Why now? Why has there been more g out? And then — [SIGHS] I don’t know if I want to say public experimentatn, but a profn of inti of tegori. You know, you n be agenr. And you n be androgyno. And you n be a dozen thgs I had never heard of before a uple of years ago.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">There’s been an explosn of that , let’s ll the past 50 years, that —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— to my knowledge is different than the 50 years before that, or the 50 years before that, or the 50 years before that. Do you have a theory of why?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, some ways, you sort of anticipate the third pot that I was gog to make. And that is talk, ias, reprentatn, social media. The thgs have also had a massive effect on how thgs spread si our culture. So sometim people don’t like that answer bee people might want to say, but you don’t choose to be gay, or you don’t choose to be trans.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, we n kd of follow up on a more-plited view of that particular thought. But I thk ’s unqutnable, as people beg to enunter ias that they had not enuntered before, they might say to themselv, huh, what about me? I jt thk you n’t ny the fact that, as more people me out as gay, wasn’t jt people g out as gay who, om the time that they were three, me out as gay.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I really do believe that the reprentatnal field is so much richer than ’s ever been before. And thgs spread through social media, right? People havg accs to an ter — I mean, my goodns, I tell the story my work, as you know. But I never saw a live gay person until I went to divy school at the age of 21. Not one. Not one live human beg ever.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I saw nobody on TV. I saw nobody the movi. I felt like I had e om another pla. That is not likely to happen now bee kids and teenagers have accs to an ter. And they n fd all kds of sourc of rmatn and other people’s stori and fictn and novels and short stori and movi to see reprentatn. I hontly thk that’s had a tremendo effect on the possibili for the different ias spreadg. One other thg I’ll say — I’ll give an example of this. In the early 1990s, when really, the word queer was jt beg taken back — we ually say that queer theory, as a field, is formg sometime around 1990. I don’t know if that’s actually te. But nohels, ’s kd of when the field alc.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Back that time perd, the phrase nonbary would be a phrase that would e om the amic thought of nstctn, post-stcturalism. And if you had told me, 2022, I’ll be talkg to Ezra Kle, and we’ll be g the term nonbary bee lots and lots of people out there the world e that of themselv, I would have said, OK, that one, I did not see g. I would not have predicted that bee that seemed like such an amic term, right?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But partly, amic theory has seeped out to the muny. And muny activism has had a tremendo effect on the ways we thk and talk.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Let me ask you about that more-plited ia about choice you gtured towards a mute ago.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, I do want to say that ’s a tricky one to talk about. So I always sort of enter to this terra gently, as I like to say, tenrly, as I sometim say. But I thk ’s unniably the se that so many more women that I know will e that word. Like, at some pot I chose to be queer. At some pot the past, people say, I chose to be a lbian.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And there were hardly any gay men I ever met — and still, to this day, there are very few gay men that I meet who say, I chose to be gay. So another tertg asymmetry there. But let me now produce some tertg plitn around the very ia of choosg while I also nfirm .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So at one pot, kd of upset me, as somebody intifyg as a queer woman that time perd, though feelg myself to be a boy, that so many women’s stori were not really beg honored, that when many women would say, like, no, llege, I actually, as a femist, cid to be a lbian. And people jt nstantly talkg about the tegory, gay, as if nobody ever choos .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, many, many women might e that word, choosg, of their sexualy. Now let me give an example. And my partner’s given me permissn to share a ltle b about her life. So she’s somebody, grew up as a normative, whe woman, as a ral Mormon raised ral Utah. Never any way thought about herself as queer, lbian, beg attracted to women.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Ined, she was volved wh a young man. They tend to marry each other. So she was sort of head towards marriage and probably havg children. And very sadly and tragilly, he died a r crash. And at that pot, her life was thrown to crisis. She thought about gog on a missn.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So she went to her bishop, who was one of the rare people who was a Buddhist who also then beme a Mormon. So he was like a Buddhist-Mormon bishop. There aren’t too many of those folks out there the world. And she scribed that she was dreamg of swimmg the ocean, which you’re not allowed to do when you’re on a missn.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And she said, I jt don’t thk I’m supposed to go on a missn bee I don’t know how I n say this is the one te church when I haven’t studied any of the religns. And he was the somewhat-rare person who said, I agree. I thk maybe you need to go off, for yourself, and study other religns, and see where tak you.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">She moved to San Diego, started studyg other religns, heard about the Great Peace March to walk across the Uned Stat 1986, which she did. So she walked om Los Angel to Washgton DC wh hundreds of people. And on that march, she met lbians, and thought they were so ol, she wanted to be one, but figured out she wasn’t a lbian.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">She mov back to Salt Lake Cy, starts a rock band, and here a female saxophone player, knockg on the door. She opens the door. And by her own renrg, she was attracted, and started a relatnship wh that woman. Now, qutn, uld you say that she was choosg to be lbian? She really wanted to be one. She was tryg to choose that thg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And of urse, many thgs had to happen her life to even open up the possibily that she would end up sayg that she was queer. She do not feel any way, shape, or form that she was born a lbian. She do not feel that her sexual orientatn is born. It’s not the right language for her.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But you n see that choosg don’t que work eher bee there are many thgs that had to happen her life to make the thg that looks like choosg possible. So I don’t know if that will make sense to your listeners. But that’s one way I would speak to that qutn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It mak sense to me, and part, bee I’m very terted by the polics — when you say the polics of choice, we tend to mean reproductive choice. But I mean somethg different.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So this tegory, this area, the ‘90s, the ghts, I remember how urgent choice was the polics of gay acceptance, of gay rights, of eventually gay marriage. How uld you whhold equal treatment unr the law om people who had no choice what they were?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so was very, very polilly important. And you remember this history much better than I do, of urse, but the searchg for a gay gene and the emphasis on “born this way,” as the [INAUDIBLE] Lady Gaga song go. And now that beg gay is much more accepted, I see a lot ls of that disurse.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And ’s actually sensized me a ltle b to thkg about choice elsewhere. Let me give an example om a whole other doma. We know that beg exposed to lead as a child rc your executive functn and, as such, your impulse ntrol. And we know that people are environmentally exposed to lead for — bee they grew up a poor area, bee they drank the water Flt.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And as such, ’s always a very ght qutn to me how much we should blame people for executive-ntrol cisns that happen later their life. I, as a person, have always jt had a lot of emotnal rtrat, to some gree, too much. It’s somethg I stggle wh another directn.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But somebody who grew up a hoe wh lead, bee they get to a bar fight that I didn’t get to, did I make a choice they didn’t make? I mean, on some level, maybe, to rea. But to have the choice to make the choice was not my cisn.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That was a rource that I had bee I didn’t grow up unr their circumstance, which is all to say that I often thk where we put choice and don’t put choice to Amerin polics says a lot about where we want to blame people vers where we don’t want to blame them. And ’s a very ght — you should be very alert to what we ci is somebody’s flt, what we ci is our cisn, and the other directn too, right?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, the whole fight over “you didn’t build that” and Elizabeth Warren is her sayg that ’s actually a lot ls about choice and cisn makg when people are succsful, that they’ve benefed om a lot they never chose.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So as you say, this may not make sense. This may seem like a ramble. But I don’t really thk is. I thk the polics of choice are much more ght than people thk they are.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And who we attribute choice to and don’t attribute to is often dog a lot of polil work that has nothg to do wh the pletely-untraceable set of factors that led to the oute we’re actually evaluatg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk choosg is a very-plited term. And that’s why you heard me jt say that, many ways, you have to see. It’s why I tell her story at some length, so people n see all, aga, all the different thgs that had to happen to make the thg that looks like choosg, or that you might even ll choosg, possible, to your pot. Somethg else I’ll say about that whole bs about we don’t choose to be gay, for the longt time, obvly, that argument worked. To your pot, was very powerful.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And when I first moved here, and as a queer theorist, I wanted to trouble that a b the way that I’ve jt done. People were very nervo about that bee that argument seemed to work relig ntext. If I say, I have tried everythg my power to change this thg about myself and I n’t change , that seemed to be an argument that worked, or some people thought was workg some way.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I get that argument bee hontly, that’s how feels like to me my life, this very-early sense, I’m a boy and I want to kiss girls. Those two thgs did not feel batable or changeable my life.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But one thg that I always jt wanted to pot out is that there’s some ways that, early on, this uld be the se, that people who were out as gay men were people who really, really were sayg to themselv, I nnot be anythg but this thg. Bee if you were a whe, middle-class man and you were gay, you were losg a lot of privilege. So some ways, you uld say that outns was selectg, also, for the men who felt so eply like, I nnot be anythg but this thg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The problem was, as I say, I felt like did not honor so many other women who scribed themselv as lbian or queer. So that’s where the plitn of choosg . It was an argument that worked for a very long time. And my pot is, if this is not a bad thg to be, and ’s not, why would we re whether somebody says they’re choosg or somebody, for themselv, feels some measure, ’s born?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Some of are gog to feel that ’s the earlit thg we know, didn’t seem changeable. Other people are gog to feel was a lot more malleable.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">In both s, ’s a betiful thg to be. And so that’s where I would hope that we would get to on that ont.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Let me talk about the people whom the arguments are meant to nvce. For a lot of people, this openg around, for sexualy, and now even more so, seems to me, genr, is ighteng. And I want to try to take that feelg serly, even if ’s not one that a lot of the people listeng to the podst are gog to be sympathetic to.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">There is this tradnalist or philosophilly-nservative impulse to rist changg or obleratg tegori that have been fundamental to a lot of societi, cludg our own, a view that ’s playg wh forc none of really unrstand, and that even if you put asi the relig arguments, that shouldn’t be done, lettg ltle kids pick their genr, addg 37 genrs or 58 genrs one fell swoop, that you have no ia what you’re playg wh here, and no ia what would happen if you actually created this world of te genr openns.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I gus I’d like to ask you to do two thgs here. One is, as somebody who’s tght around this a lot, and I thk, as you say, talked to more nservative groups, what, to you, is the strongt acunt of the argument agast openg up the genr bari that you’ve heard? And then what is your answer to ? What do you thk about the argument for nservatn?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, believe or not, and this uld surprise your listeners, I’m jt gog to say the strongt arguments are the relig on bee they’re very hard to argue wh, right? If you really do believe this is a dive book, this book reveals the way thgs mt be, ’s gog to be very hard for any of outsi of that, or even si of that, to argue wh that. That’s one of the harst on for me to bump up agast.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And of urse, I live Utah. So I’m a place that has a very domant relign, Lots of folks here om the Church of J Christ of Latter Day Sats, as they like to be lled. And I honor that. So I’ve been blsed wh the opportuny to teach so many stunts my classrooms that have e om that church.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Now one of the thgs that I thk is kd of geo, over time, is our abily to bond wh each other over the differenc. So one of the thgs I always liked about beg Utah — some people really dislike this — tends to be a very pole culture on the surface. Who knows what people are sayg behd closed doors, maybe not so pole. And of urse, you’d have to pot out that people are polely tellg you, some s, that you n’t have particular rights. That n annoy folks, unrstandably.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But for me, my classroom, I always tried to take that at face value, that this sort of polens allowed to kd of skate along the surface wh each other long enough to fd out that we were pable of really likg each other. And I always felt, wh my stunts — sometim I would say this at the start of a class — is that, you know what? I thk you’re gog to me bee my flt is set to like. I’m already likg you.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m exced to know who you are. I want to know how you thk. I want to know what you believe. And I’m gog to do very ep-seated listeng to take acunt of that. And so we would have some very spired nversatns wh each other. I remember some of them, which would go like this,</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK, Kathryn, I jt have to tell you, I thk that my wife should not work outsi the home. I hope you don’t feel ls of me. And I would say, well, e on. Tell me why you thk that. Lay out for me. And we’re readg 19th-century texts about women fightg for the right to work or whatever.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But we end up havg a very strong bond across that view bee as I say to that stunt, ’s not my job to tell you what you need to do your fay circle, that’s for you to work out, but let’s talk about the ias, let’s bate them, and then he would say somethg. And I’d say, OK, I see you to this pot. But then, hmm, here’s where I get stuck. Here’s my thought to that. And then he’d go, uh, hadn’t thought about that. I’ll be back.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so there’d be that kd of back and forth. And aga, to me, that was important. I don’t know if we moved each other’s ias over the urse of a urse. But I began to unrstand more eply why people believed what they believed — very important to me. And I thk my stunts, bee they were there — they were readg. They were talkg. They were rpondg. I have ways to fd out if they’ve read texts.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so that type of bondg, for 15 weeks at a time, where you share the very -pth — and I’m gog to say timate experienc, even 45 people a room sharg ias wh each other — somethg happens that moment.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, let me make an irrelig argument om relign that I’ve been thkg a b about. So when I thk about analogi for the openg of genr, or the profn of genrs, the creasg malleabily of genr tegori, at least for some people some parts of the untry, I thk a b about how relign has opened up.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">There are a lot more forms and formats of Judaism now than there were hundreds years ago, rangg all the way om the ultra-orthodox and the Hasidic to the secular-hippie Judaism that often domat out where I am. And not only that, but the ia that you might move om Judaism to maybe a hyphenated Judaism — much more of my spirual practice is Buddhist than is, hontly, Jewish.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m very terted Daoism. I’m very terted Christiany and the Catholic tradn. And I thk that’s te for a lot of people. There’s a lot more, as people ll , feteria relign. Maybe the analogy to some of the newer genr tegori is the profn of new-age and quasi-occult tegori that have jumped up recent s.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And a lot of people who aren’t even relig today lament what was lost as anized relign entered cle, a sense of muny, a sense of a world, and a stcture, and a moral , that even if wasn’t chosen anew at every moment of your life, was there to provi some stabily your life.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">There’s a feelg among many that this has worked well for some people, people who love change, and have enjoyed learng about all the new religns, and dabblg this and that, and that for a lot of other people, they’ve lost a stabily, and a muny, and a rootedns that has left them adrift. And a sometim choate way, I hear that this nversatn om people who don’t exactly believe that what is happeng here is a vlatn agast dive law, but do worry that what is happeng here is a change to an orr that is gog to leave a lot of people adrift, that even if there are a lot of people who will be served by , there will be others who lose , that is not jt eedom, but that eedom n also e wh this kd of untetheredns.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Do you thk there’s anythg to that? Do you thk that a more-open world of genr will leave people behd who are somehow served by a more closed world of social expectatn and hierarchy?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I really don’t, the tt sense. I don’t ny that people may feel that. And I n image how bewilrg might feel if you’re somebody who’s si a set of tegori that make sense to you, feel you don’t have many qutns surroundg them, you’ve had a lot of rewards for beg those tegori — I mean, let’s face . A lot of the worry about allowg the other thgs to e to be is, y, a loss of cultural power and cultural privilege. And I know that’s not what you’re talkg about. You’re talkg about other typ of thgs that aren’t sheerly about power.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But I actually thk that the more people allowed themselv a kd of abily to embrace other thoughts, other ias, other people’s ways of beg, that asi om the loss of power — which is real, but nobody should have that nsolidated power — that asi, I thk people would fd that there’s a greater possibily for muny, a greater possibily for llective g together, and buildg llective ias and llective forms.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I’ve jt watched people my life who were formed at different pots history, different generatns than I am. And I’ve watched them e to accept — like, I’m jt gog to ntue to e the looseng of the tegori, the multiplitn of tegori. And I’ve watched a kd of fear-based approach to those beg to drop away. There n be real joy that, even if those are not thgs you want to be or intify as. So let’s say you’re a straight person. You’re like, yeah, I don’t see myself, if I’m thk of myself as a man, wantg to sleep wh men. Maybe that’s not gog to happen. But allowg yourself not to feel fearful that you would ever let any thought to your nsc md that you wanted to, or that you found another guy attractive, that’s eeg some way.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So at heart, I believe if we were to move towards more llective forms, on so many onts, terms of e, terms of sharg rourc, the way that I would feel knowg that people my neighborhood have accs to really good health re, that will epen my pleasure. And one of the thgs I’d like to challenge people wh is to actually broan the boundari of your own pleasure. Let more thgs that will give you pleasure.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And as I see other people beg to let go of some of that tightns for themselv, their fantasy life, their dream life, and wh the people that they love their liv, that has multiplied happs many s, not taken away. So ’s very hard for me to thk what the te loss would be.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t ny the fact that people will feel a sense of loss as they have to enunter new ias and new forms of beg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Before we get to books then, I want to end by havg you expand on that visn a b. If we image a world 50 years om now which the edge of the nversatn over genr has bee the center, which isn’t jt a weird thg some tech platforms have done to offer all the genrs, but is a normal thg which we try to loosen the n and the forts of genr around children. What do that world look like? What is different for a child growg up that world, a child who maybe wouldn’t have f well the world I grew up , but also for a child who maybe would have? How do really — how do you unrstand the opportuni to those children as beg different?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I jt went to pri Salt Lake Cy this year. I ually go to Pri. I always go to Pri out of a sense of duty if nothg else. I’m a queer theorist. So I don’t que believe the tegori as received.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But as I was walkg around our cy buildg, our cy unty buildg, and seeg the people that I was seeg, I was blown away. I flew right on this. Now for two years, we hadn’t been able to have the para. So there’s a ltle lag time there.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But I was seeg people of every possible sk tone, every — back to hair — every possible way you uld do your hair, thgs I had thought about, thgs I had never thought about. I saw people genred ways I had never imaged. I saw ltle kids nng around new genred forms. I saw teenagers.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">To me — and I know this is so strange — ’s not the way I generally speak as a queer theorist — but for me that moment, was the most tly-tersectnal scene I had physilly been to that extent, wh so many people attendance. The paper said somewhere around 70,000 people were attendance.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Salt Lake Cy only has a populatn of about 200,000. So was very strikg to me. And for that one moment, I said to my iends, even my iends who are very jad and cynil — that cynicism is earned — I said to them, I saw a ltle visn of the future,</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">and is now. It gave me such hope bee first of all, Pri had ceased to be a whe thg Salt Lake Cy, thank goodns. And there were so many other tegori at play, and the mix, and changg, and circulatg wh each other.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It is this tersectnal future that I thk we have to hearken towards. And that will lead to attend to thgs like race, and money, and digeney. There really is no way. This is the this of my book. And so you or anybody else, I ve you to have a different thought when you read . But the thgs really are so eply relatnship to each other that genr n’t be changg, never is changg, unls we see the way that racializatn plays around .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And yet the thgs are que asymmetril to each other. So they’re not the same. They don’t follow the same logics. But I do thk, even if ’s not te that you n isolate genr — I mean, is, to my md, absolutely not te — somethg that looks like somebody’s genrizg, as were, is openg up, is creatg ls prumptns attached to that body.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It may also help to loosen up those other prumptns that we have. You might be thkg, like, hmm. I also need to have a ep-seated huy about — let’s put this way — disabily. That’s somethg that as an amic, I’m dog tch up bee I have not studied, along the way, much about disabily. And I’m readg like crazy to get myself ted on that particular ont.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I thk ’s not impossible that thkg about some of the thgs that seem more malleable, the way that we talk about genr that way, may have some very good effects for the other tegori that may or may not be more locked down, and that also create promise for where change uld happen.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I thk that there is a way. I do have a hopeful view that what we’re talkg about, terms of genr the public square, is also allowg to talk about race and money new and different ways. And that’s all to the better — disabily also.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And then always our fal qutn, what are three books that have fluenced you that you would remend to the dience?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, I’ve given a lot of thought to this, as you uld image I would. I want to mentn the three books that I thk were most important for this project, for me, wrg “Genr(s),” bee they really phed my thkg and took me to plac that I had not gone on my own.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">First and foremost, Jul Gill-Peterson. She has wrten a book lled “Histori of the Transgenr Child,” a really important book bee om that book, I was able to glean where do the ncept of genr e om. Gog to this project, I wasn’t sure I uld answer that qutn. But her book helped me wh that.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Eli Clair, who wr on disabily — and this book is partly memoir and partly nceptn — the book is lled “Brilliant Imperfectn.” It’s really helpg me thoughts about disabily.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And the third book is by Qwo-Li Driskill. The book is lled “Asegi Stori: Cherokee Queer and Two-Spir Memory.” I learned so much that I didn’t know om that book about the history of Cherokee genrg. And of urse, there’s many more people I uld name that I hope your listeners are also enunter through my book and by other means.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Kathryn Bond Stockton, thank you very much.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kathryn bond stockton</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Ezra, thank you. What a pleasure.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ezra kle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">“The Ezra Kle Show” is produced by Annie Galv and Rogé Karma, fact checkg by Michelle Harris and Kate Sclair. Origal mic by Isaac Jon. Mixg by Sonia Herrero and Isaac Jon. Audience strategy by Shannon Bta. And special thanks to Krist L and Krista Samulewski.</p></dd></dl></div></div></div></div><div style="posn:absolute;width:0;height:0;visibily:hidn;display:none"></div><hear class="css-1vwfk9f" data-breakpot=""><div style="width:100%" data-ttid="flt-layout"><div style="background-image:url()" class="css-197zlhc e1llfg0"><div class="css-1hmsypo e1llfg2"><div class="css-131hid3 e1llfg3"><div class="css-1uhi299 e1llfg1"></div><div class="css-1tloyb6"><div class="css-ah35qo ehra6vc0"><a href=" class="css-2ne0py"><span class="css-1f76qa2"><img alt="The Ezra Kle Show logo" src="><span>The Ezra Kle Show</span></span></a></div></div><div class="css-1r0dpua e1llfg4"><div class="css-wfiq9c edye5kn0"><div><h1 class="css-15oz550 edye5kn2">Genr Is Complited for All of Us. Let’s Talk About It.</h1><h2 class="css-syyj5g edye5kn3">A distguished profsor helps me unrstand our plited — and changg — culture around genr.</h2></div><span class="css-xpptmx edye5kn4"></span><button type="button" class="css-w62hzm" aria-haspopup="te" aria-label="Show Aud Transcript"><div class="css-1vd84sn"><svg xmlns=" width="24" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 20" fill="#F8F8F8"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M0 0H24V20H0V0ZM3 7H21V9H3V7ZM21 11H3V13H21V11ZM3 15H21V17H3V15ZM11 3H3V5H11V3Z" fill="#F8F8F8"></path></svg><span class="css-16bt4xd">Transcript</span></div></button></div><div class="css-1g7y0i5 e1drnplw0"><button tabx="100" class="css-1rtlxy" type="button" aria-label="close"><svg width="60" height="60" viewBox="0 0 60 60" fill="none"><circle cx="30" cy="30" r="30" fill="whe" fill-opacy="0.9"></circle><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M38.4844 20.1006L39.8986 21.5148L21.5138 39.8996L20.0996 38.4854L38.4844 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M21.5156 20.1006L20.1014 21.5148L38.4862 39.8996L39.9004 38.4854L21.5156 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path></svg></button><div class="css-rdbib0 e1drnplw1"></div><div class="css-18ow4sz e1drnplw2"><div aria-labelledby="modal-tle" role="regn"><hear class="css-1bzlfz"><div class="css-mln36k" id="modal-tle">transcript</div><button type="button" class="css-1igvuto"><div class="css-f40pzg"></div><span>Back to The Ezra Kle Show</span></button><div class="css-f6lhej" data-ttid="transcript-playback-ntrols"><div class="css-1ialerq"><button tabx="99" type="button" class="css-1t9gw" aria-label="play"><svg xmlns=" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M8 13.7683V6L14.5 9.88415L8 13.7683Z" fill="var(--lor-ntent-sendary,#363636)"></path><circle cx="10" cy="10" r="9.25" stroke="var(--lor-stroke-primary,#121212)" stroke-width="1.5"></circle></svg></button><div class="css-1701swk"><svg xmlns=" viewBox="0 0 40 36" id="el_0kpS9qL_S"><tle>bars

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