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jsx-1062180250" data-cy="article-headle">The Neil Gaiman Interview: How the Sandman Fally Ma It to Televisn After 30 Years Of Failure</h1><h2 class="tle3 jsx-2866659985" data-cy="article-sub-headle">Neil Gaiman and Allan Heidberg on The Sandman's long journey, Tom Sturridge's 'Batman voice,' and more.</h2><div id="p-article-below-hear" class="jsx-3647225544 piano-template-placeholr wh-shadow"></div></div><div class="jsx-1897904587 page-ntent"><output class="box-wrapper jsx-537794787 watch-read-vio" data-cy="watch-read-vio"><div class="jsx-3866305403 vio aspect-rat aspect-rat-16-9"><div class="jsx-3044862456 loadg"><svg class="ign-in jsx-2211565535 in-loadg" focable="false" viewBox="0 0 32 32" lor="whe" aria-hidn="false" role="img"><tle>Loadg</tle><path d="M16,5 L16,9 M23.7781746,8.22182541 L20.9497475,11.0502525 M27,16 L23,16 M23.7781746,23.7781746 L20.9497475,20.9497475 M16,27 L16,23 M8.22182541,23.7781746 L11.0502525,20.9497475 M5,16 L9,16 M8.22182541,8.22182541 L11.0502525,11.0502525" stroke="currentColor" fill="none" stroke-lep="round" stroke-lejo="round" stroke-width="2" class="jsx-3044862456"></path></svg></div><div class="jsx-1093179800 badge"><svg class="ign-in jsx-1735195406 in-play" focable="false" viewBox="-2 0 17 21" aria-hidn="false" role="img"><tle>Play</tle><path stroke="none" fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M16.094 9.176c1 .6 1 2.049 0 2.649L2.341 20.092A1.545 1.545 0 0 1 0 18.768V2.232A1.545 1.545 0 0 1 2.34.908l13.753 8.268Z" fill="currentColor"></path></svg></div></div></output><sectn class="jsx-3528870638 byle"><div class="stack jsx-816329128 byle-stack"><div class="stack jsx-1752463718 article-thors"><sectn class="jsx-1825775112 thor-avatars avatars-1"><div class="jsx-3001299294 thor-thumb profile-thumb aspect-rat aspect-rat-1-1"><img dg="async" alt="Kat Bailey" src=" srcSet=" 1x, 2x" class="jsx-2920405963 progrsive-image profile-thumb-img jsx-2407332289 jsx-3166191823"/></div></sectn><div class="ptn jsx-1189612256">By <a href="/person/ign_kat" class="jsx-3953721931 article-thor unrled">Kat Bailey</a></div></div><div class="jsx-3176214726 divir"></div><div class="ptn jsx-1189612256">Posted: <!-- -->Aug 5, 2022 3:00 pm</div></div><div class="jsx-4050243981 divir"></div></sectn><div id="p-article-below-hear-image" class="jsx-3606872557 piano-template-placeholr wh-shadow"></div></div><div class="jsx-3517015813 page-ntent"><div class="jsx-3517015813 si-by-si"><div class="jsx-3517015813 article-ntent page-0"><sectn class="article jsx-2571790323 article-sectn jsx-28683165 news"><sectn class="article-page"><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">There was a time when Neil Gaiman didn’t want a movie or televisn show about The Sandman to be ma at all. Even as <a class="jsx-955973305 unrled" href="/articl/2009/05/14/batman-20th-anniversary-edn-blu-ray-review">Batman and other ic book hero</a> found big succs on the silver screen the late 1980s and 1990s, Gaiman was ristant to followg their footsteps. He felt his semal ic book seri, which so memorably mixed mythology and urban fantasy, wasn’t que “movie-shaped,” and was always quietly relieved when projects based on failed to make to productn. </p><div class="jsx-303009029 adun-wrapper"><div class="jsx-303009029 bobble bobble-0 pogot pg-article"><div data-mix-name="mediumAd" data-pos="0" data-pogo-hi="1" class="jsx-343126785 pogo-slot"></div></div></div><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">“I didn't re about jt gettg ma. I would so much rather that never got ma than a bad versn would get ma,” Neil Gaiman tells IGN.</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">It wound up takg more than 30 years, but The Sandman is fally gettg the screen versn Gaiman prevly thought impossible. Lnchg on Netflix earlier today, reviews of the 10-episo seri have been posive, wh IGN’s Amelia Emberwg llg a <a class="jsx-955973305 unrled" href="/articl/the-sandman-season-1-review-flix">"dream of an adaptatn."</a></p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">Gaiman, once so reticent to see this happen, has been tirelsly stumpg for the show on his <a href=" target="_blank" class="jsx-955973305 unrled" rel="noopener noreferrer">2.9 ln follower Twter acunt</a> and elsewhere. But when he speaks wh IGN on the ocsn of the show's release, he across as eply trospective, his ments ocsnally peppered wh terjectns om shownner Allan Heberg, wh whom he has an easy back-and-forth rapport. </p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">Wearg his faiar black t-shirt and jacket, he talks about how “credibly env” he is of his younger self – the versn of Neil Gaiman who fought back agast a Sandman movie he didn’t thk would work. The versn who was told that “nobody’s ever e to this office and asked not to make a movie before.”</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">He remembers how Eric Kripke, a creator that Gaiman “lov and rpects” who has lately been enjoyg <a class="jsx-955973305 unrled" href="/articl/the-boys-season-3-review">great succs wh The Boys</a>, pched a Sandman seri for work TV cir 2010, and how Gaiman rejected bee “ really didn’t work.”</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">“The damage that you had to do to Sandman to put on work TV 15 years ago and the kd of budgets and the way that you uld do jt meant wasn't Sandman. It was the Rose Walker show or somethg,” Gaiman says.</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">It took, as Gaiman refers to , the “weird and wonrful” streamg age to brg the seri to somethg remblg what Gaiman had md: a genre-spanng adventure that some ways rembl 10 distct movi spread across a sgle season. It’s a show that nnects the Gaiman of 2022 – who has found such succs ics, novels, film, and stage – wh the young Gaiman of the late 1980s, who was hand the task of revalizg a ltle-known DC Comics character and subsequently turned to one of the <a class="jsx-955973305 unrled" href="/articl/2005/12/20/the-25-bt-vertigo-books?page=5"><u>greatt ic books of all time</u></a>.</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">In short, after such a rich and varied reer, The Sandman is brgg Gaiman back to the begng.</p><div id="p-article-below-slishow-1" class="jsx-3647225544 piano-template-placeholr wh-shadow"></div><output class="box-wrapper jsx-537794787" data-cy="article-slishow"><button type="button" style="display:none" class="jsx-3968970857"></button><div class="jsx-2415274857 slishow-preview"><h3 class="tle5 jsx-3573724151">Netflix Spotlight: Augt 2022</h3><div class="jsx-2415274857 imag-ntaer"><button type="button" aria-label="Open Slishow" class="jsx-2415274857 hero-image"><img dg="async" alt="Click through for a spotlight on some of the most notable Augt 2022 Netflix releas." src=" class="jsx-2920405963 progrsive-image jsx-1049729975 image aspect-rat aspect-rat-16-9 jsx-1330092051 jsx-3166191823 round hover-opacy loadg"/><span class="jsx-1603570557 button button--sendary-alt jsx-1457652164 row-pagatn-button next ntaed centered round xlarge" tle="Open Slishow"></span></button><div class="jsx-3963919147 jsx-4243969252 imag-list"><button type="button" aria-label="Open Slishow" class="jsx-2415274857 gallery-image"><img dg="async" alt="Me Time (Augt 26) - When a stay-at-home dad fds himself wh some “me time” for the first time years while his wife and kids are away, he rennects wh his former bt iend for a wild weekend that nearly upends his life" src=" class="jsx-2920405963 progrsive-image jsx-1049729975 image aspect-rat aspect-rat-16-9 jsx-1330092051 jsx-3166191823 round hover-opacy loadg"/><div class="round jsx-3166191823 overlay progrsive-image jsx-2407332289 expand"><div class="ptn jsx-1189612256">13 Imag</div></div></button><button type="button" aria-label="Open Slishow" class="jsx-2415274857 gallery-image"><img dg="async" alt="13: The Mil (Augt 12) - After movg om New York to Indiana the wake of his parents' divorce, a clever middle schooler is termed to throw the bt bar mzvah ever." src=" class="jsx-2920405963 progrsive-image jsx-1049729975 image aspect-rat aspect-rat-16-9 jsx-1330092051 jsx-3166191823 round hover-opacy loadg"/></button><button type="button" aria-label="Open Slishow" class="jsx-2415274857 gallery-image"><img dg="async" alt="Spir-Man 1, 2, and 3 (Augt 1) - Sam Raimi's trilogy of Spir-Man movi starrg Tobey Maguire as the legendary hero will arrive on Netflix on Augt 1." src=" class="jsx-2920405963 progrsive-image jsx-1049729975 image aspect-rat aspect-rat-16-9 jsx-1330092051 jsx-3166191823 round hover-opacy loadg"/></button><button type="button" aria-label="Open Slishow" class="jsx-2415274857 gallery-image"><img dg="async" alt="The Sandman (Augt 5) - After years of imprisonment, Morphs — the Kg of Dreams — embarks on a journey across worlds to fd what was stolen om him and rtore his power." src=" class="jsx-2920405963 progrsive-image jsx-1049729975 image aspect-rat aspect-rat-16-9 jsx-1330092051 jsx-3166191823 round hover-opacy loadg"/></button><button type="button" aria-label="Open Slishow" class="jsx-2415274857 gallery-image"><img dg="async" alt="Locke & Key: Season 3 (Augt 10) - In the thrillg fal chapter of the seri, the Locke fay unvers more magic as they face a monic new foe who's ad-set on posssg the keys." src=" class="jsx-2920405963 progrsive-image jsx-1049729975 image aspect-rat aspect-rat-16-9 jsx-1330092051 jsx-3166191823 round hover-opacy loadg"/></button></div></div></div></output><div id="p-article-below-slishow-1" class="jsx-3647225544 piano-template-placeholr wh-shadow"></div><h2 class="tle2 jsx-3065735273"><strong>Only Tst the Story</strong></h2><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">The origal Sandman was released 1989, an era fed by works like Frank Miller’s The Dark Knight Returns and Batman Year One. It was this perd that Gaiman was tablishg himself as a wrer, havg gravated toward ics after fdg himself mmerized by Alan Moore’s Swamp Thg. Given rte blanche to reimage Sandman, a character who had gone through var eratns unr the spic of creators like Gardner Fox and Jack Kirby, Gaiman envisned a richly-realized urban fantasy populated by characters like Dty, Lucifer, and of urse, Death.</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">The seri quickly veloped a followg, lastg 75 issu before Neil Gaiman wrapped 1996. Today, ’s regard as one of the pillars of morn ics, standg tall alongsi such works as The Watchmen, one of s ntemporari. Gaiman has sce moved on to other mediums, wng popular acclaim wh Amerin Gods among others, but he’s retaed a soft spot for ics, which he once likened to <a href=" target="_blank" class="jsx-955973305 unrled" rel="noopener noreferrer"><u>hackg through a jungle</u></a>.</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">“When I was workg on Sandman, I felt a lot of the time that I was actually pickg up a machete and headg out to the jungle. I got to wre plac and do thgs that nobody had ever done before,” Gaiman said back 2007.</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">Set the morn day, The Sandman follows Morphs, the Lord of Dreams, as he p ptivy and returns to his realm to fd his disrepair. What follows is a metatextual exploratn of dreams, storytellg, ath, and rebirth. In IGN’s review of <a class="jsx-955973305 unrled" href="/articl/2006/10/13/the-absolute-sandman-vol-1-review">The Absolute Sandman Vol. 1</a>, Hilary Goldste observed that there is “purpose every panel,” wrg that Sandman’s story is neher a “seri of unnnected events” nor “an herent dream.”</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">“The events the first stori may seem to be important only to the prent tale, but almost all prove to have a nnectn to later issu leadg to the seri fale,” Goldste wrote.</p><div class="display-tle jsx-4216686804 quote-ntaer" data-cy="quoteBox">"When I wrote Sandman, there was a lot of stuff that got very ltle feedback. Very ltle tractn. Got mostly bafflement, the fact that you had characters who were of all rac."<div class="stack jsx-287467054"><div class="jsx-3176214726 divir"></div><span>“</span></div></div><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">It’s an amb story wh a sprawlg spe – one that Gaiman stggled wh at tim even a ic format. It’s filled wh tal like A Dream of a Thoand Cats, which a secret gatherg of domtited fel learn of their kd’s te history (Gaiman says won’t be Season 1, but he don’t le out for later seasons).</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">Lookg back on the ics, Gaiman talks about how ahead of s time was terms of reprentatn. He pots specifilly to Wanda, a transgenr character first troduced Sandman #32 (and perhaps bee of the time the story was wrten , falls victim to certa <a href=" target="_blank" class="jsx-955973305 unrled" rel="noopener noreferrer"><u>discreded trop</u></a>, even if Wanda herself was broadly hailed by the LGBTQ muny).</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">“When I wrote Sandman, there was a lot of stuff that got very ltle feedback. Very ltle tractn. Got mostly bafflement, the fact that you had characters who were of all rac. The fact that here we are at issue ne, and 's Ai a long time ago, and everybody's black, and Dream is black too, and this is jt how is,” Gaiman says. “The fact that we have trans characters, the fact that we have gay characters. All of that kd of stuff, which was important to me, wasn't particularly of s time. Wanda was the first trans character mastream ics. She simply was.”</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">In that rpect, Gaiman don’t see much difference whether Sandman is set the late 1980s or 2022. “When I'd tell people, ’No, no, we're settg now.’ And they go, ‘Oh right. You are mornizg and updatg .’ And 's like, ‘Yeah, no, not really.’ Some of the people have cell phon, and that really is most of . Some of the hairstyl are different.”</p><h2 class="tle2 jsx-3065735273"><strong>‘It need to be ma right’</strong></h2><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">But even if Sandman’s them are timels, ’s still proven credibly difficult to succsfully adapt to other mediums. Attempts have been ma sce the 1990s, wh one screenplay apparently beg so bad that Gaiman lled <a href=" target="_blank" class="jsx-955973305 unrled" rel="noopener noreferrer"><u>“not only the worst Sandman script I’ve ever seen, but que easily the worst script I’ve ever read.”</u></a> In 2001, Gaiman argued that for an adaptatn to succeed that would need someone wh the “same obssn wh the source material as Peter Jackson had wh Lord of the Rgs or Sam Raimi had wh Spir-Man.” In 2010, the TV seri wh Kripke was pched for Warner Bros. Televisn, and also failed to go anywhere.</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">The moment fally me 2018, when David Goyer approached Gaiman while he was by wh <a class="jsx-955973305 unrled" href="/articl/2019/06/03/amazons-good-omens-miseri-review">Good Omens</a> – the adaptatn of the novel he wrote wh the late Terry Pratchett near the begng of his reer. Goyer had wrten the screenplays for a multu of superhero films, cludg Christopher Nolan’s Dark Knight Trilogy, and he was nvced that The Sandman uld work on a streamg service.</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">Goyer subsequently nnected Gaiman wh Heberg, who had his own superhero experience workg on 2017’s Wonr Woman. The three went to dner, where Heberg rapidly tablished his fan bonafis by revealg that he had met Gaiman before – at an event where he had asked the thor to sign a page of The Sandman: Brief Liv for him.</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">“I knew pretty much om that moment that we had our person,” Gaiman says.</p><div id="p-article-above-vio-1" class="jsx-3647225544 piano-template-placeholr wh-shadow"></div><output class="box-wrapper jsx-537794787" data-cy="article-vio"></output><div id="p-article-below-vio-1" class="jsx-3647225544 piano-template-placeholr wh-shadow"></div><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">After that, Gaiman says he watched Hollywood lawyers “move faster than I’ve ever watched” to get the ntracts negotiated and agreed upon, upon which the group quickly reached an agreement wh Netflix after takg pch om “every major streamer and player the world.”</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">This is where Heberg, who has been largely quiet to this pot, starts to bee more animated. He and Gaiman will equently fall to nversatn unbidn — a nsequence, perhaps, of their eply llaborative relatnship om throughout the productn of the seri.</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">Much of stems om lsons Gaiman learned om <a class="jsx-955973305 unrled" href="/tv/amerin-gods/reviews">Amerin Gods</a>, which suffered numero difficulti, cludg the unexpected parture of s shownner. Gaiman wasn’t particularly volved wh the velopment of that show, which he feels was to s triment.</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">“I kept watchg the people, not que ever makg Amerin Gods and I'm gog, ‘Guys, I've driven down this street. If you go down there, you'll get the r stuck and you n't turn around.’ [...] And there was a lot of that,” Gaiman says. “Wh Amerin Gods, I talked to the shownners for a day or so before they'd start the new season, nceivg . And then I'd normally get sent the fished episos. Wh this, I was on the phone or on a zoom ll wh Allan every day.”</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">At this pot Heberg jumps , “It would be very rare if we would go three days whout checkg .”</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">“I mean, we'd be on email for those other two days,” Gaiman repli.</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">“Y, and the phone, but Neil, we were never the same cy ever,” Heberg says, now fully engaged. “And there was one day when we were both London and we didn't see each other all day and then managed to meet up for dner, but that was . It was the kd of thg where we had an enormo amount of eedom to really exame the origal scripts and the ics. And then the act of dramatizg the books, is an act of adaptatn and Neil unrstood that a really fundamental way and me to play.”</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">Heberg says he tried to bother Gaiman “as ltle as possible” while the show was progrs. When they did e together to solve some “knotty plot problem,” such as one scene that volved ventg a good al of extra plot for Dream and Johanna, the pair ually found was bt to strip back down to the origal material om the ic. </p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">“That is a lson that I've learned on Good Omens, 's the lson I've learned on a Anansi Boys where I would go and make fancy plited stuff up that would make all of the execs really happy,” Gaiman says. “And very often we'd even shoot , and then we'd e to the edg room and we'd go, this is really clunky and clumsy, and this isn't dog what 's meant to do. And then somewhere there somebody would go, jt e back and look at the origal book, why don't we jt start where the book starts, whatever and sudnly the thg would start to fly. So I'm always credibly sympathetic wh Allan, whichever one of wds up makg that cisn. ”</p><div id="p-article-above-vio-2" class="jsx-3647225544 piano-template-placeholr wh-shadow"></div><output class="box-wrapper jsx-537794787" data-cy="article-vio"></output><div id="p-article-below-vio-2" class="jsx-3647225544 piano-template-placeholr wh-shadow"></div><p class="jsx-3649800006 "><em>Why don’t we jt start where the book starts? </em>Gaiman’s stct is always to go back to the source material. Even now, Heberg says, Gaiman remembers not jt everythg he wrote, but where he was and what mic he was listeng to.</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">He’s visibly exced when talks about how he “n’t wa” to st Dty (“That’ll be fun”), and he says he’ll “cheerfully wake” Heberg wh “unexpected texts the middle of the night” askg, “What about this person? Can we dn this person if we get there?”</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">He also talks about how the story still has the power to make him emotnal, pecially the sixth episo of the first season, which by his own admissn was enough to brg him to tears. Asked to share his emotns behd those tears, Gaiman says, “Enormo amount of surprise that words I had wrten 30 years ago were now givg me, as they ed to say on the ter, all the feels, bee they were beg so betifully livered by actors…I thk that episo six is one of the bt piec of televisn I've ever seen.”</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">It’s enough that Gaiman feels fans should set asi the sixth episo rather than bgeg straight through – one of the odd quirks of the streamg era. Netflix has bee more flexible wh shows like Stranger Thgs, which held back the fal two episos s most recent season, but otherwise has no plans to dch the “bge mol” helped create. </p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">Sandman, by Gaiman’s own admissn, isn’t particularly well-sued for Netflix’s signature approach to episo releas. The season is amed as 10 distct stori that e together to form a greater whole, meang they may not neatly f to the standard cliffhanger mol signed to keep viewers skippg to the next episo.</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">“I thk that 10 episos is probably too long for people to s down and do an all day listeng party. And hontly, I thk the emotnal impact of all 10 episos at once is probably gog to stroy you. So I would say, jt don't do that probably,” Gaiman says. “I would say that for anybody who was dog the giant viewg party, or planng to take the day off or whatever, I'd say go to episo six. Don't stop before episo six, but get to episo six and then have a day off to digt before you go back and do The Doll's Hoe.”</p><div class="display-tle jsx-4216686804 quote-ntaer" data-cy="quoteBox">"I thk that episo six is one of the bt piec of televisn I've ever seen."<div class="stack jsx-287467054"><div class="jsx-3176214726 divir"></div><span>“</span></div></div><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">As for how many seasons Sandman n ultimately go, Gaiman says simply, “Until ’s done.”</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">That might be easier said than done. There are still years' worth of Sandman ics to get through after the ncln of the first season. Gaiman hts at his own hop for the seri should be allowed to ntue.</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">“In a perfect world, we'd get through to Sandman Overture, which would take you back to the begng aga. But would also tell you why a fully drsed and armored Dream go off to brg the Corthian back; a naked Dream, exhsted and ptured by somebody who shouldn't have been able to do , wds up the magic circle and Burgs's mansn, and what happened between those two thgs and what was gog on. That is the story of Sandman Overture, and tellg that will be an absolute adventure, so I hope we get that far,” Gaiman says.</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">“And then the spoffs,” Heberg adds.</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">“Yeah,” Gaiman agre. “But that don't necsarily have to be after. I n absolutely see dog a Death: The High Cost of Livg or somethg between seasons.”</p><p class="jsx-3649800006 ">Death: The High Cost of Livg, should be mentned, was also set to be adapted to a movie, wh Gaiman providg the screenplay and Guillermo l Toro servg as executive producer. Like so many other Sandman adaptatns, was ultimately shelved.</p><div id="p-article-above-vio-3" class="jsx-3647225544 piano-template-placeholr wh-shadow"></div><output class="box-wrapper jsx-537794787" data-cy="article-vio"><div class="jsx-3033355949 jsx-2961976369 vio-wrapper"><div class="jsx-3033355949 jsx-2961976369 vio-ntaer"><div class="jsx-3866305403 vio aspect-rat aspect-rat-16-9"><div class="jsx-3044862456 loadg"><svg class="ign-in jsx-2211565535 in-loadg" focable="false" viewBox="0 0 32 32" lor="whe" aria-hidn="false" role="img"><tle>Loadg.