Opn: Mara Gay on What tak to heal om COVID-19

*BEAR-MAGAZINE.COM* MAURA GAY

bars</tle><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_65hRV2Qwn" class="css-1fxvzwo" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_ILVvi2tqx" class="css-1wnday1" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC"><rect x="34" width="6" height="36" id="el_qw_T_tngXw"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_p_9Pm85Ac" class="css-fwki7z" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_WxG3R40yd" class="css-t3i5e6" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU"><rect x="22.67" width="6" height="36" id="el_lf9GrROk6j"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_kYNRGDfcw" class="css-t9te0w" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_3c3bzSjOJ" class="css-1r5375t" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw"><rect x="11.33" width="6" height="36" id="el_-iueO8klO0"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_y_fKcpSxn" class="css-qknaag" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_R6bNB6_Ys" class="css-1vd04" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC"><rect width="6" height="36" id="el_dS5TKNZZ5w"></rect></g></g></g></svg></div><div><div class="css-1t7yl1y">0:00<!-- -->/<!-- -->33:12</div><div class="css-og85jy">-<!-- -->33:12</div></div></div></div></hear><div class="css-uzyn7p"><div class="css-1vxyw"><p class="css-1nng8z9">transcript</p><h2 class="css-9wqu2x">Why Facebook’s ‘Hubris and Arrogance’ Astound This Attorney General</h2><h4 class="css-qsd3hm">Attorney General Mra Healey of Massachetts weighs on social media, the Sacklers and Florida’s “Don’t Say Gay” bill.</h4><time dateTime="2022-03-28T09:00:09.000Z" class="css-1e605">2022-03-28T05:00:09-04:00</time></div><dl class="css-p98d0w"><dt class="css-xx7kwh"></dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">(SINGING) When you walk the room, do you have sway?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m Kara Swisher, and you’re listeng to “Sway.” My gut today is Massachetts Attorney General Mra Healey. Like me, she’s a feisty lbian who lik takg on big power players. Whether ’s her 100 lawsus agast the Tmp admistratn, her cisn to hold the Sacklers personally acuntable for the opid crisis or ongog vtigatns to the impact of Meta and TikTok on kids, Healey is hopg the ws will put her on track for a new job — ernor. She’s clared her ndidacy the Bay state’s 2022 race.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I wanted to ask Healey, a Democrat, how she n w a state that’s mostly gone for Republin ernors recent years and whether she thks she’s achieved enough jtice her A.G. job. But first, I wanted to dig to a topic that’s close to both of our hearts — the clampdown on the rights of the L.G.B.T.Q.+ muny red stat. A note that my voice was a ltle worse when we taped this terview.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mra Healey, wele to “Sway.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Kara, great to be wh you.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I wanted to talk to you about Florida right now. It’s obvly personal to me, I have four children. Nott bee we live Florida, but unr Florida’s parental rights tn bill, which opponents have lled the Don’t Say Gay bill, teachers and staff would be prohibed om talkg about sexual orientatn and genr inty wh kids elementary school. So talk about the e of this argument for parental rights, which has been ed several tim before and a lot by the G.O.P.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, ’s a se. Let’s ll what is. It’s an effort to weaponize people’s sort of fear. There’s a lot of misrmatn. I thk as a member of the gay muny, for a long time now, we’ve seen our muny ed as polil footballs. So that’s what’s gog on here. But is hurtful. It is discrimatory agast L.G.B.T.Q. kids. And here we have ernors like Ron DeSantis and Greg Abbott Texas takg backwards on the backs of our trans kids, of our L.G.B.T.Q. muny, of women, right? Bee look at what they’ve also done wh accs to abortn.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And what I say to people is, you n talk the talk about equaly, but ’s about where you put your money, too. I have a lot of iends who vatn Florida, who spend time Florida. I unrstand that, Kara, but I thk people need to take a hard look at what’s gog on right now and ci, is this where I’m gog to spend my money?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Listen, I took my nference out of Florida. I had a nference there this Febary. I’m not dog aga. It’s one thg to say that and say ’s a wrong thg, but ’s workg, this effective argument for parental rights. Talk a ltle b about what they’re tryg om a legal pot of view if you are fightg and whether you would.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, I thk you have to fight both legally, but you also have to fight the urt of public opn, and you really have to ll out the misrmatn for what is. So I thk legally, for those of stat where we have strong anti-discrimatn laws on the books, let’s make sure that we are enforcg them.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Let’s make sure that we are jog together wh enti like the U.S. Department of Jtice challengg some of the efforts, bee, aga, this gets to attacks on L.G.B.T.Q. kids on the basis of their sexual inty, their sexual orientatn, their genr inty. And so that rais ser civil rights issu. I mean, image Florida, you’re now gog to be llg on folks to sue school districts for takg steps to protect the abily of a young person to learn a healthy environment. That’s terferg wh your accs to tn, and ’s terferg wh your right as a parent to look after and provi for the well-beg of your child.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And also allows parents to sue. I mean, when you look at , you mt go, huh, smart.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, you’re not smart bee look at Texas and S.B. 8. So one of the thgs that the legislators Texas did was to e up wh this law that’s basilly created a bounty hunter system and said, private cizens, you’re gog to be allowed to sue people who you know who are providg abortn. And they’re dog the same thg. I mean, ’s really sick, right, bee we see the chillg effect that those lawsus have.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So how do you ph back on ?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You sue. You sue. And I know that I will jo wh others urt, lawsus, support of lawsus challengg the really unnstutnal and discrimatory laws. And while that works s way through the system, we really have to fight and change the urt of public opn. So I also appeal to the bs muny this time to be clear about where they stand. And I know there’s a risk dog that. But, you know, we’ve got to fight the urts, urt of public opn, and we’ve also got to fight the boardrooms.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, you saw Disney not phg back and then phg back later, a ltle too late, which was, I thk, a real sta for them. But are you surprised after you did this marriage equaly law a long time ago? Are you surprised this is back?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Am I surprised? No. Am I surprised, after the Tmp years and all that we wnsed? Sadly, I’m not surprised. It’s where we are right now this untry. I have fah this untry. But people have really got to, I thk, start speakg up and standg up for one another.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Is there a risk of losg marriage equaly?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t thk so. I mean, I thk that what we know the last 10 years, the last five years, people are ed to , right?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, so is Roe v. Wa.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, yeah, that is te. That is te. But I thk that marriage equaly is more secure than actually accs to safe and legal abortn. It sadns me. I mean, both should be rpected and affirmed unr the law, but I’m pretty nfint, given where we are wh fai and how marriage equaly has been more stutnalized and normalized across so many stat, that that is here.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s tertg. So I qutn if marriage equaly will stick. I don’t know why. I jt have this feelg. I’m sorry, are you married?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, no, I haven’t been married, but I’m proud to support those who are and certaly work to try to do my part to support marriage equaly.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, but you’ve had a longtime partner, rrect?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I had, y.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, you did, OK. Yeah, I’ve been married twice, so I do a lot of gay marryg for everybody else. So I want to n through a number of areas you’ve had some tractn as attorney general Massachetts, gog after Purdue Pharma, your vtigatns to big tech, and your take on Tmp. So let’s start wh the Sacklers and the opid crisis.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And you were the first attorney general to go after the Sackler fay. In 2021, a settlement was reached for the Sacklers to pay $4.5 billn, but not adm guilt. You rejected an earlier settlement proposal and really phg for admissn of wrongdog om the fay. But you seemed to change your md on that. When did you ci, OK, this is probably the bt we’re gog to get? And I’ll talk about the new settlement a mute.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, was jt that. I mean, after several years of vtigatn ligatn, I thought that we had gotten what we uld and the kd of reckong that we need unr the extent of the law. Now I would have liked the Sacklers to go to jail. I would have liked the U.S. Department of Jtice not to ntue to cut als wh that fay and allow them to ntue on. That didn’t happen.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But when I started as attorney general, I said to my team, we’re gog to sue the Sacklers. We’re gog to name nam bee that’s the only way there’ll be acuntabily. And then what my team did that hadn’t been done before is we spent two years wh subpoenas, vtigatns. And we filed the plat, Kara, that basilly told the whole story of what they did. I was clear I wanted all the documents to be produced and ma available onle a public reposory of documents, all the emails, the memos, everythg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">To show what they had done.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right, bee at the end of the day, no amount of money that you were gog to rever was ever gog to be enough to rtore what happened to fai victimized by the Sacklers. So we shut down the bs. They had to pay up not all of what they ma, but a substantial amount of what they ma. And I hope that the Jtice Department serly nsirs reopeng this and pursug crimal charg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, let me ask you. I mean, this is all money. $6 billn, a lot of money, the new settlement. Still, they still have a lot of money, first of all. And they’re not admtg guilt. And no one’s gog to jail. Can there be jtice whout that?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They n say, look — and I’ve teracted wh different dividual Sacklers. And I mean, they’re cel, heartls, credibly selfish. I don’t know where that myopic narcissism om. But ’s there. So I don’t re what they say. They n ny, but the documents speak for themselv. And I thk we have told the story of what they did. And that’s why you see their nam g off buildgs. People don’t want to have that associatn wh them anymore.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All right, so there’s no way — the Jtice Department is the only way this is gog to happen. Do you thk there’s a se?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk there’s a se. I thk there’s a se and somebody should try to make . I mean, unfortunately, what happened years ago is that two different Jtice Departments allowed the Sacklers to e wh their attorneys and basilly buy their way out of crimal prosecutns through the payment of f.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And that isn’t acceptable to me. I did what I uld as an attorney general. It was the first time the Sacklers as dividuals had ever been named a lawsu. And I thk that took a lot of people by surprise. But was enough? Is enough for those fai and what they did? No.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All right, speakg of rporatns or lears who ped acuntabily, you recently lnched an vtigatn to TikTok and Meta on nsumer protectn grounds. Can you expla your approach? Obvly, an issue near and ar to my heart, although I thk they have other bigger problems than the issu around kids, but why don’t you talk about what you’re dog there?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, I uld not agree wh you more. And you know, I’ll say at the outset, ’s not that I don’t e to this wh an appreciatn for tech the dtry and what enabl. I also thk has pletely taken over and n amok. And there hasn’t been a good way to al wh . And you’re right, there are all sorts of issu. The one particular that you mentned was an vtigatn by a number of to the ways which Meta, Facebook, and TikTok were specifilly signg the platform and manipulatg to get as many young people watchg for as long as possible, when there have been studi showg a nnectn between that and anxiety, suicidaly, body image and the like.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so we vtigated to get to the bottom of bee ’s really sort of as a nsumer matter. Well, hey, if you’re makg a product and you eher sign or you know that the way which you signed is gog to harm a nsumer, then you’re answerable for that. And so we’re tryg to get answers to that.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">A lot of people thk there’s not enough rearch yet. There’s signs potg to y, but not foolproof. And more rearch is need. What have you found so far?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, I’ll disappot you. I n’t talk about matters that are unr vtigatn. What I will say is that we are aggrsively pursug this. And you know, this is an stance where you see Republins and Democrats g together to look at this issue bee we get plats om parents all of our stat about the screen time. So ’s the sign, you know, of this and the platform and the ways which they have been g and unrstandg their own data and algorhms, and the effect that’s havg and then what they’re dog wh that rmatn. So we’re gog to ntue to go through wh that. And we’ll see where that tak .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">How operative has the pani been?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They’re not operative.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Meang not at all.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, they’re operative to a certa extent, but I thk they all know how to slow-walk thgs. They know how to bury public tert law firms and state enforcement offic wh lots of documents, lots of obftn. I mean, this has been the le.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I get , tech has never wanted ernment lookg at them. And but I have to say that over the years, the level of hubris and arrogance, particularly on the part of Facebook, has really astound me. They’ll e at you and try to sell you wh ias of ways which they’re helpg out and advancg all this good.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I thk a ltle b of is they look at all as sort of like ill-rmed Ludd, right? That we surely possibly uldn’t unrstand their world. So I thk there’s a ltle b of that attu that they don’t take serly and figure they n jt stall and lay and market their way out of this. And I thk that Facebook is realizg that may not be the se, but we jt want the problem fixed. You know what I mean?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, they’re tryg right now wh Ukrae to try to have a better pot of view, I gus, and beg helpful and then phg on Rsia. But here, they certaly obfte. That’s somethg I’ve enuntered.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, yeah, that’s all well and good. I thk ’s important. I also saw what they didn’t do 2016 and the rults of that. And I saw what they did do all the way through the surrectn and ntug to allow the promulgatn of misrmatn, disrmatn, electn niers, right, that are, right at this time, so anti-mocratic and puttg people harm’s way and at risk. So I’m glad, you know, they’ve had an awakeng, or they’re g their platform to do somethg that is nstctive. But I gus, also, what that illtrat, Kara, is they’ve known all along how to do this. They chose not to do .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Do you thk you have any power, really? Bee so far, La Khan let the MGM merger go bee she didn’t have enough power wh her own Feral Tra Commissn. Attorney generals do this. There’s attorney generals on the Google se. They’re on the Facebook se. Amazon will e unr scty, obvly, Apple. Do you all have power pared to the tech pani, really, om a legal pot of view?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’re gog to fd out. I thk we do. I mean, I thk we put together some strong s, and we’ll see how the ligatns go. Some of this is untted, right? I mean, that’s part of . Some of the thgs have not been tted yet. And so they have to get before a urt. And then we’ll see whether or not laws need to change. I mean, I thk laws need to change. I thk that we need to, this untry, jt unrstand.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And those of ernment, the state and the feral level, need to unrstand that platforms really — they n our liv. It’s the way which people receive their news and rmatn. It’s the way they accs tn, healthre now, fancial servic. And so there has to be some effort to make sure that certa prcipl that we’ve always sort of lived by this untry that have been important to market enomy and the like, are kept place as we see, you know, the evolutn and technology and the move to the platforms.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So your vtigatn of TikTok, is that different? Is a different vtigatn, or is along the same l?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s siar to the Facebook vtigatn. We first sent subpoenas out to Facebook a while ago. And siarly, we’ve done that wh TikTok.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Is a different suatn, given the Che ownership? Are you ncerned about that?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’re not ncerned about . And TikTok, we know to be particularly more prevalent among young people right now than Facebook. I mean, that’s where, God knows, a week or two, will move on to another enty. But ’s jt to say that’s where the actn is at.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Is that pany more operative?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk they’ve been better than Facebook.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But everybody’s been better than Facebook, to be hont.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, OK.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That sounds about right.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But there’s still time. There’s still time for Meta to e forward and operate.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You wa by that phone. I’m sure they’ll do . I’m sure they’ll be llg soon.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, we’ll see them urt the meantime. [MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be back a mute.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">If you like this terview and want to hear others, follow on your favore podst app. You’ll be able to tch up on “Sway” episos you may have missed, like my nversatn wh Patrick Radn Keefe, and you’ll get new on livered directly to you. More wh Mra Healey after the break.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So you’ve brought dozens of s agast the Tmp admistratn on immigratn, tn, ntraceptn and more. A lot of the are jt performative, rrect? Or were you really gog for somethg?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, we were — I strongly reject the premise of that qutn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All right, OK.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We saw him try to take away healthre, try to take away ntraceptn, go after immigrant muni, cut off SNAP benefs, stute the travel ban, which, here Massachetts, meant that a lot of our pani, our universi, didn’t have stunts or profsors or workers who were able to return to the Uned Stat of Massachetts to work.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It was jt like every week, he was dog somethg harmful, rollg back important environmental regulatns that have been put place to al wh greenhoe gas, tkerg wh the cens, which would have had the effect of cuttg off feral fundg to our stat.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So yeah, we sued him probably over 100 tim, based on thgs he had done that were illegal, unnstutnal and hurtful to our rints or bs of the like. And you know what? We won nearly 85 percent of those s. We went to urt, we got orrs to block him. And blockg him, that was important bee was a way to stop bad thgs om happeng. It was sort of sad that we had to be nstantly gog to urt, but we were succsful and was absolutely necsary to hold the le until he left office.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It was largely Democratic attorney generals who were dog this together as a group, rrect?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s right, and unfortunately, we uldn’t get Republin attorney generals wh . It jt is, you know — ’s sad, and I’ve worked well wh many Republin lleagu, but I thk a lot of them were aaid to jo, aaid of Tmp, aaid of retaliatn, and really gettg the you know what kicked out of them, jt for standg up and dog the right thg and applyg the le of law.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So he’s beg vtigated for both crimal and civil s or s vtigatns New York, though there’s some problems the crimal one — Geia, Washgton, D.C. Which of the s do you thk is most important?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, the are hard s, and I’d say the most blatant crimal se is the se that district attorney Geia is handlg. Remember when Tmp picks up the phone and basilly tells somebody to change the rults of the electn and obstcts jtice the procs. So that, to me, is jt credibly clear cut terms of a crimal actn. But I hope that the vtigators and the prosecutors stay wh all of this and all that matters for purpos of gettg at the tth. When that happens, Kara, and how that happens, we’ll see.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Tmp don’t do email or texts. He jt tweets, or he gets on the phone. People don’t flip on him, except for Michael Cohen, who has issu. How difficult is that when you’re tryg to prosecute someone?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, ’s hard when you don’t have that smokg gun. But most s, you don’t have a smokg gun, and that’s why tak time. You know, tak several months. It may take years to build an vtigatn. And some of that is buildg rmatn om people who worked for him, showg and exposg their culpabily, gettg them to flip. And so, you know, this is the way often works crimal vtigatns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Do you expect that anythg uld happen legally that would prevent Tmp om seekg a send term?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Absolutely. I mean, I thk any number of thgs uld happen, cludg his prosecutn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, but he’s Teflon. Is there anythg such as legal Teflon? This guy is sort of ttg that theory, isn’t he?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, he is. And unfortunately, he spawned this movement where now you have the lik of a Marjorie Taylor Greene and others out there jt like — that’s part of the problem for the Republin Party. It’s like the party has jt lost ntrol of self. And how do you al wh the vtig of Tmp that play out day to day and the lik of those dividuals?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right, well, speakg of Republins, there’s been a lot of them nng Massachetts. In fact, almost always, except for Deval Patrick. Is there a benef to havg a morate Republin such a state? Obvly, Baker is que beloved. So is Romney, a lot of ways.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So this probably isn’t gog to surprise you, but I thk all l are out the wdow at this pot. I thk that this time, what people are lookg for is somebody they know who’s gog to listen to them and to really get thgs done. I thk that’s what people are lookg for ernment lears.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All right, the WGBH reporter Adam Reilly noted, “As the mpaign ramps up, expect Republins and maybe even some of Healey’s Democratic opponents to acce Healey of gog easier on the state’s overwhelmgly Democratic polil tablishment than she should have.” This is one of the issu wh voters, why they tend to vote a Republin ernor an overwhelmgly Democratic polil tablishment.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk ’s a ltle b different. I probably put that wh a Democratic majory legislature, which has been the se here for a long time, ’s often offered as a reason that Republin ernors ually get elected, albe very morate Republin ernors, like a Bill Weld or Charlie Baker, our current ernor. It’s to be a sort of a check of the legislature. I thk a difference for me, Kara, is, I’m g at this as the attorney general.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I have tablished myself credibly wh voters here Massachetts as somebody who has never been aaid to stand up to a powerful tert, to take on a tough problem. So I thk at the end of the day, you know, I thk that there’s a lot of support and regnn for, ’s a lot of the bread and butter stuff that we do, helpg somebody wh their stunt loan, gog after the nursg home that did not treat their mother well, and she died. It’s protectg workers, protectg nsumers, protectg stunts and workg wh ernment.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, one Republin ntenr for the ernorship, Geoff Diehl, is somebody who lost var state ns before. He’s nng agast another Republin, Chris Doughty, I thk the primary. Leavg asi the attorney general’s curse, which people Boston tend to like to wre about that a lot, I’m gog to move away om that, and might have somethg to do wh some wall you have, a baseball wall there, too, that’s green, the Green Monster, rrect?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">There’s curs everywhere all over Boston.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, no attorney general has ever bee ernor the state of Massachetts om attorney general.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What is the appeal of those Republin ndidat? Do you thk is that, to hold the legislature to acunt? It seems to love G.O.P ernors and love s Democratic tablishment.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, I’ll tell you what this race is like. This race uld not be more clear. The fellow on the other si is a — saw a long time ago, Tmp’s endorsement, and basilly is nng on a Tmp agenda. I mean, that is not where this state needs to be terms of lookg after our rints. You knw, lleg and universi, our life scienc, our btech, our high tech, our ftech, this don’t jive, you know what I mean, wh where we are.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So they don’t want a Tmper. They like a Mt Romney. They like a Charlie Baker, that kd of thg. This guy is very much Tmp — he seems to be Tmp Le and more like Glenn Youngk?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t know. I mean, he may try to pat himself that way. But I know what he is. And he brought on Corey Lewandowski, and they’re off and nng. But I know people the state were pretty happy wh the efforts of my office over the last many years fightg Tmp urts succsfully. I had people om all polil strip e up and thank me for dog that work. So I don’t thk Tmp sells here Massachetts, but we’ll see. I’ve got my race to n.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So answer this qutn. Ben Downg, a former state senator, recently said, quote, “I don’t thk any of have a clear answer for, on day one, Governor Healey do what.” Can you give me a specific?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Um, I thk people know —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">This should be easy.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, I mean, hontly, I don’t thk anybody’s nfed here Massachetts about my policy posns. I’ve been livg and breathg and takg them over the last seven years, 15 years, really, if you go back to my time as head of the Civil Rights Divisn. So what I am gog to make sure we do, Kara, as I thk any good C.E.O. of a state needs to do, is to be ready to roll, day one. There are a whole bunch of thgs that need to happen that I’m lookg forward to workg on and really —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All right, n you give me a specific? I’m gog to go Katie Couric on you. Specifilly, what do you —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, my God. Hontly, there are so many, OK? But —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Give me one. Come on, throw me a bone.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All right, I thk the first thg will be havg great teams, you know, place and diverse learship, reprentg a diversy of lived experience. A ernor gets to appot 4,000 people, gets to tablish and set up agenci. Who ns those agenci, what they look like, that is credibly important. That’s a day one rponsibily.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Climate, I’ve talked about what we need to do wh climate here terms of settg up and mornizg our grid. We’re buildg a lot of wd off the shore here Massachetts. And we’ve got to make sure that we have a Department of Public Utili that’s workg on ways to brg that energy across the state, pecially right now as people are facg really hard hs when to electricy and heatg bills. So those are jt — I mean, there are, as I say, hundreds of day one actns. But I thk what people are really lookg for is tst somebody. And so ’s been fun for me to get out and talk to people. It’s been two years. You know, a lot of people —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What is their biggt ncern? What do they want om Governor Healey then?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They want to know that Governor Healey is gog to look after their fay, their kids’ well-beg. I’ve had so many people —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So abily to do what? An executive actn to do what? Give them?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Invt mental healthre.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You talk to parents right now our state, I n’t tell you the number of fai who are alg wh difficulty accsg mental health servic. We’ve got kids who have suffered real fics the classroom bee of not beg school the last uple of years. Parents want to know how are we gog to make up to our young people and get them to where they need to be. And poundg that, we’ve got a lot of young people alg wh real mental health issu, people generally alg wh mental health issu. And ’s bee a mpaign prry for me terms of fixg that and creasg accs to mental health.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The other thg they’re worried about is child re right now bee a lot of women here have not been able to return to the workforce bee child re is $15,000, $20,000 a year. And ’s jt too expensive for people to go back. And the third thg, I n tell you — you n talk to any kd of pany here. The third thg that they’re worried about right now Massachetts — I don’t know if ’s this way California or elsewhere — workforce. We’ve got a lot of jobs available, but we haven’t matched skills and upskillg to align wh jobs that are available here today. That’s a big worry for a lot, a lot of people right now. So those are three thgs.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Those are specific, thank you. I appreciate . All right, I’m gog to ask you a basketball qutn at the last mute, spe my distaste of sports. I ll sports ball. My son is an excellent basketball player, by the way. I have to go to gam all the time. And I go, oh, look, the ball’s movg around. Anyway, you were once a pro basketball player. Apparently, you’re que good, at pecially — you’re not very tall. You’re like 5’4, is that rrect?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, I was a ltle pot guard.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Which is lerally a pro basketball player is the most lbian thg ever, by the way. Any lsons om that as you n be? You said once, “Tly strong women make each other better when they work as a team, when they’re not aaid to fail, when the rponse to an opponent or a bad ll by a ref is jt to fight back harr.” Do that still unt? Is there any lson you learned, both negative and posive, om beg a basketball player?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All posive. I mean, hontly, playg team sports, pecially for women, was fantastic. You learn about teamwork and rilience and disciple, all those thgs as a pot guard. So jt bee — I know you don’t re about basketball, but —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I re a ltle b.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You re a ltle b? You see what the pot guard is? They’re sort of like the —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sort of, vaguely.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They’re like the quarterback. They brg the ball up. The first thg they have to do is to be able to handle prsure. And then your job, your greatt statistic is not srg pots. Your greatt statistic is actually what’s lled an assist, makg pass, makg plays, so that others n sre. And, you know, that’s kd of who I am and my vibe. Like, how do we do this together as a team? How do we build a team? Bee you n have the most unbelievable players on a team, but I would take a better team playg together over dividual stars any day of the week. And that’s part of what I try to do my work as A.G. and office.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right, yeah. Anyway, I really appreciate this. Thank you so much for talkg about basketball and all the goals you make. That’s what I said at the game last night, and my son was jt horrified and repulsed by me, which is about average for a 16-year-old.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, isn’t that normal wh any mom?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk yellg goal at my son’s basketball game was probably a problem. I’m pretty certa. Anyway, I wish you good luck, and we’ll see what happens November.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Great to be wh you. Thanks for havg me on.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">“Sway” is the productn of New York Tim Opn. It’s produced by Nayeema Raza, Blakeney Schick, Daphne Chen, Cal O’Keefe and Wyatt Orme, wh origal mic by Isaac Jon; mixg by Sonia Herrero and Carole Sabourd; and fact-checkg by Kate Sclair, Michelle Harris and Mary Marge Locker. Special thanks to Shannon Bta, Krist L and Krista Samulewski. The senr edor of “Sway” is Nayeema Raza, and the executive producer of New York Tim Opn d is Irene Noguchi.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">If you’re listeng on The Tim webse and want to get each new episo of “Sway” livered to you, along wh Healey’s explanatns of all the other basketball posns, which I don’t re about at all, download any podst app, then search for “Sway,” and follow the show. We release every Monday and Thursday. Thanks for listeng.</p></dd></dl></div></div></div></div><div style="posn:absolute;width:0;height:0;visibily:hidn;display:none"></div><hear class="css-1vwfk9f" data-breakpot=""><div style="width:100%" data-ttid="flt-layout"><div style="background-image:url()" class="css-18qqsen e1llfg0"><div class="css-1hmsypo e1llfg2"><div class="css-131hid3 e1llfg3"><div class="css-1uhi299 e1llfg1"></div><div class="css-1tloyb6"><div class="css-1kltdsh ehra6vc0"><a href=" class="css-2ne0py"><span class="css-1f76qa2"><img alt="Sway logo" src="><span>Sway</span></span></a></div></div><div class="css-1r0dpua e1llfg4"><div class="css-1gu519p edye5kn0"><div><h1 class="css-1xbyom1 edye5kn2">Why Facebook’s ‘Hubris and Arrogance’ Astound This Attorney General</h1><h2 class="css-rlih edye5kn3">Attorney General Mra Healey of Massachetts weighs on social media, the Sacklers and Florida’s “Don’t Say Gay” bill.</h2></div><span class="css-lsnb14 edye5kn4"></span><button type="button" class="css-w62hzm" aria-haspopup="te" aria-label="Show Aud Transcript"><div class="css-1vd84sn"><svg xmlns=" width="24" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 20" fill="#F8F8F8"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M0 0H24V20H0V0ZM3 7H21V9H3V7ZM21 11H3V13H21V11ZM3 15H21V17H3V15ZM11 3H3V5H11V3Z" fill="#F8F8F8"></path></svg><span class="css-16bt4xd">Transcript</span></div></button></div><div class="css-1g7y0i5 e1drnplw0"><button tabx="100" class="css-1rtlxy" type="button" aria-label="close"><svg width="60" height="60" viewBox="0 0 60 60" fill="none"><circle cx="30" cy="30" r="30" fill="whe" fill-opacy="0.9"></circle><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M38.4844 20.1006L39.8986 21.5148L21.5138 39.8996L20.0996 38.4854L38.4844 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M21.5156 20.1006L20.1014 21.5148L38.4862 39.8996L39.9004 38.4854L21.5156 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path></svg></button><div class="css-rdbib0 e1drnplw1"></div><div class="css-18ow4sz e1drnplw2"><div aria-labelledby="modal-tle" role="regn"><hear class="css-1bzlfz"><div class="css-mln36k" id="modal-tle">transcript</div><button type="button" class="css-1igvuto"><div class="css-f40pzg"></div><span>Back to Sway</span></button><div class="css-f6lhej" data-ttid="transcript-playback-ntrols"><div class="css-1ialerq"><button tabx="99" type="button" class="css-1t9gw" aria-label="play"><svg xmlns=" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M8 13.7683V6L14.5 9.88415L8 13.7683Z" fill="var(--lor-ntent-sendary,#363636)"></path><circle cx="10" cy="10" r="9.25" stroke="var(--lor-stroke-primary,#121212)" stroke-width="1.5"></circle></svg></button><div class="css-1701swk"><svg xmlns=" viewBox="0 0 40 36" id="el_0kpS9qL_S"><tle>bars .