bars</tle><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_65hRV2Qwn" class="css-1fxvzwo" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_ILVvi2tqx" class="css-1wnday1" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC"><rect x="34" width="6" height="36" id="el_qw_T_tngXw"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_p_9Pm85Ac" class="css-fwki7z" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_WxG3R40yd" class="css-t3i5e6" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU"><rect x="22.67" width="6" height="36" id="el_lf9GrROk6j"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_kYNRGDfcw" class="css-t9te0w" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_3c3bzSjOJ" class="css-1r5375t" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw"><rect x="11.33" width="6" height="36" id="el_-iueO8klO0"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_y_fKcpSxn" class="css-qknaag" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_R6bNB6_Ys" class="css-1vd04" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC"><rect width="6" height="36" id="el_dS5TKNZZ5w"></rect></g></g></g></svg></div><div><div class="css-1t7yl1y">0:00<!-- -->/<!-- -->28:47</div><div class="css-og85jy">-<!-- -->28:47</div></div></div></div></hear><div class="css-uzyn7p"><div class="css-1vxyw"><p class="css-1nng8z9">transcript</p><h2 class="css-9wqu2x">The Wrers’ Revolt Agast A.I. Compani</h2><h4 class="css-qsd3hm">Tech bs have been g onle wrg to velop their chatbots — whout permissn.</h4><time dateTime="2023-07-18T10:00:12.000Z" class="css-1e605">2023-07-18T06:00:12-04:00</time></div><dl class="css-p98d0w"><dt class="css-xx7kwh"></dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">This transcript was created g speech regnn software. While has been reviewed by human transcribers, may nta errors. Please review the episo d before quotg om this transcript and email wh any qutns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">From “The New York Tim,” I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today, to refe their popular technology, new artificial telligence platforms, like ChatGPT, are gobblg up the work of thors, poets, edians and actors, whout their nsent. As my lleague, Sheera Frenkel, found, a rebelln is brewg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s Tuday, July 18.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sheera, is really nice to have you back. It has been far too long.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I agree. It’s great to be back here.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We are turng to you our ongog and very diligent efforts to unrstand this new era artificial telligence and the bate that is ragg over s like ChatGPT, which have put artificial telligence really at everyone’s fgertips.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And rrect me if I’m wrong, but really feels like this is shapg up as a clash between those who are really exced about the pabili of s like ChatGPT — you know, what n do next? This is so tertg. And this huge group of people who are jt eaked out about , right? And ’s gog too far, ’s too sry. And we’ve done a lot of episos about this. A recent one looked at stunts who love ChatGPT, bee n do their homework for them, and their teachers and profsors who are like, wa a mute, you’re basilly cheatg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And you have been reportg on the latt chapter of this clash between human and mache. So tell about that.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, what I’ve been foced on is really jt all the battl over what go to the AI mach. And what mak them powerful, what mak them able to imate human voice is all of the ntent that we’ve put onle over all the years. It’s the poems, and the blogs, and the photographs, and the illtratns that are then pied, and scraped, and fed to the AI mach. It’s what teach them to imate human behavr.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mm-hmm.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And the past six months, as this software has bee really powerful and very popular, more and more people have started askg qutns about whether they want their ntent fed to AI mach. And if they don’t want there, if there’s really anythg they n do about .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So tell who exactly the people are who are askg the qutns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They kd of fall to two groups. There are the people who are dog so bee ’s their livelihood. They have a pyright on their material, and they have some kd of legal protectn agast their work.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The other group are the hobbyists. They’re the people who are wrg stori for the fun of , that are jt creatg art bee they’re passnate about somethg. And they’re puttg stuff out to the ether of the ter. They love . They want to share wh the world. This is jt a te moment of human creativy.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But, you know, both of the groups are seeg ChatGPT, they’re seeg the AI pani valued at hundreds of lns of dollars, and they’re realizg that their creativy is makg someone else a lot of money. And they’re feelg exploed. They’re feelg like their creativy, their moment of spiratn is beg ed.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So let’s start wh this first group of creativ who sound like they are the big fish bee they have pyright protectn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. The are people like actors, animators, wrers, people who make their livelihood by uploadg what they’re dog to the ter. And so they’ve been really alarmed when a ChatGPT along and n produce art their style or n wre a paragraph their style.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (sarah silverman)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I go — I go to the hotel. Super fancy hotel —</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Take, for stance, Sarah Silverman.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (sarah silverman)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— and I go to check . Oh, and the lady at the ont sk regnized me. And she was like, oh, my god, I love you. You are my top four all time favore edians.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">She is a edian, an actor, a wrer, who has honed an credibly distctive style over s of workg.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (sarah silverman)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I was like, you know that I know that means I’m fourth, right?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Not walkg away om this like, ooh, maybe I’m send, you know? No.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And if you go to ChatGPT and say, “Tell me a joke the style of Sarah Silverman”— which is somethg I tried out — really gets her spot on. And she argu that not only has read her jok and read her other onle edy, but that ’s even read this book that she wrote “Betwetter,” which has been upload onle and exists onle versns.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">She appears pretty nvced that ’s sentially learned who she is and what her edic style is. It n mimic her to the gree that you thk is her wrg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I’m gusg ChatGPT likely did that whout askg her permissn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. There is no permissns beg asked here bee there are sentially — image the giant mach that are crawlg the ter at all tim. And any data they e across, they llect. They scrape . They don’t know what they’re dog. They’re nvertg to numbers. It’s basilly bee math the systems. And so anythg onle is nstantly beg hoovered up by the mach and fed to AI systems.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so for a creative profsnal like Sarah Silverman, that feels credibly threateng terms of their livelihood, their abily to make a livg off of beg an artist wh an pennt voice that’s been honed over s. If a mache n do that, why would you need to pay Sarah Silverman to e and wre your script or pen a edy special?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mm-hmm. But how n you be so sure that ChatGPT is really stealg om you if you’re someone like Sarah Silverman, or if you’re anybody, really, whose work has been upload by ChatGPT? Bee my gus is that this gets a ltle b sticky. How much of is jt guswork and how much of is really beg rived om sentially borrowed or stolen material?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Defely. I mean, well, to beg wh, there are the reposori where you n go and check and see if your work has been scraped. A lot of artists do this. A lot of wrers do . And they’ll see there that your name will appear or your piece of art will appear. And so for someone like Sarah Silverman, she n go and see, OK, right, my book has been scraped.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But more specifilly, ’s really jt playg wh this, and ttg out for yourself and toyg wh . I was cur as I was reportg this story, so I went onle and I typed my name. And I said, “Can you wre a paragraph about the danger of onle extremism the voice of Sheera Frenkel?”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Which is the subject you ver, of urse —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— over and over and over aga for “The Tim.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Y, exactly. And I’ve wrten books. I’ve been wrg about for over a . It’s out there. My material is out there. And when I tell you that even after knowg about AI for a year, even after verg this topic for a year, I was creeped out at how close got my voice. I uld have easily wrten this sentence.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Expla that. I mean, I’m not on ChatGPT right now, so I n’t replite the search. But what happened when you said, you know, “Wre a paragraph about the subject I know bt, Sheera Frenkel,” and sp out the rults. What about felt so distctively Sheera Frenkel-que?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I will read to you. So wr this one openg sentence, which is “Onle platforms once hailed as bastns of ee exprsn have bee breedg grounds for hate, radilizatn, and the propagatn of dangero iologi.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That exprsn, “the bastns of ee exprsn,” I’ve ed that. I googled . I ed that an article ls than a year ago and aga an article three years ago. I didn’t even realize that that was a phrase or a turn of phrase that I often ed until ChatGPT repeated back to me.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. It’s kd of a distctive set of words you’re sayg that you turn to. And jt borrowed om you replitg your work.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, knew my bra better than I did. I didn’t realize that that was phrasg I equently ed.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">[lghs]</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I had to go to “The New York Tim” archiv to figure out, oh, yeah, ’s right, I do e that. And, oh, my god, I probably ed too often bee this mache has learned about me.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. And suffice to say, you were not, like Sarah Silverman, nsulted about your work beg scraped by ChatGPT.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Nope. We were never nsulted. And no one at “The New York Tim” was nsulted.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Got . So Sarah Silverman did not like that experience. You scribed as a ltle b eerie. I’m wonrg if ’s a touch flatterg to have ChatGPT borrow your stuff?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Or if you worry about the long-term enomic nsequenc of all, which is to say that someday ChatGPT might be able to replite your journalism so brilliantly, that maybe “The Tim” don’t need you on the beat anymore.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, you know, I’ve actually spent so much time thkg about this. And there’s a part of me that was thkg, oh, god, kd of would be nice when I was done wh reportg to plug my not to a mache and have — there are days where would be nice to have a mache wre my article for me.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But no, no, I thought about more, and then I was like, yeah, n imate what I’ve already done. But the whole pot of news is that what we’re brgg you is h and based on new reportg. So the nclns we’re drawg for rears are nstantly changg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And AI n’t do that. It n only repeat and regurgate what’s already been given to , what’s already the system. And so whatever answer giv you might be what Sheera Frenkel thought about somethg two years ago or five years ago. But won’t be what the newt ia is or the ht reportg has brought rears.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. It might jt keep tellg the world that you thk somethg’s a bastn of ee exprsn when you thk ’s a bastn of not ee exprsn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">[lghs]</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">If ’s bee a bastn of hate speech and extremism.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK, so what n creativ do about, sentially, this theft, right? What n the Sheera Frenkels and the Sarah Silvermans of the world do, and what are they dog about this problem?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So the creativ wh the pyright, the creativ wh the legal protectn of a pyright n file lawsus. And that’s exactly what we’re seeg happen. There’s been nearly a dozen lawsus that have been filed agast AI pani by everybody om book publishers to dividuals who have pyright protectns.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And one of them was Sarah Silverman, who got together wh another two thors to sue several AI pani, cludg Meta, which is the parent pany of Facebook, and OpenAI, which is the parent pany of ChatGPT, to say that their work was illegally scraped, and download, and upload to the AI systems.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And Sheera, what do legal experts thk are the chanc that this kd of a lawsu om a Sarah Silverman will prevail agast a pany like ChatGPT?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, you know, this is all brand new. It’s brand new se law. But they know they have to tablish some kd of law or precent gog forward bee this is material wh a pyright. For a lot of artists, books they wrote 10 years ago or 15 years ago, that’s gog to ntue to make them money throughout their liv.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And y, they’re evolvg nstantly as artists. They want to thk about their material gog forward. They don’t want ChatGPT to wre their jok for them gog forward. But they also want to be paid for the books that have already been published and are already out there.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so is the feelg that old school pyright law will provi someone like Sarah Silverman wh the legal protectns that she’s seekg?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, the legal experts seem credibly hopeful that there is some kd of pyright protectn here, and that, sentially, some kd of fancial damag will be award, and that some kd of moary value will be placed on the very strong pyright protectns that creative profsnals get.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The problem is that even if they get that money, even if Meta or OpenAI are forced to pay some kd of damag to Sarah Silverman, the ntent, the data, n never be retrieved. It’s out there. It’s bee numbers and on and zeros fed to a mache. There’s no way to go to , to that mache, and get that data back out. Once ’s , ’s forever.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so ultimately, even if they do get that fancial reward through the urt system, and they get the pyright protectn to their material affirmed by the urts, their data is gone. Their data is there forever.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">In other words, the horse is out of the stable. I assume that’s te, Sheera, for , for “The Tim,” for the work of people like you. We n’t retrieve your journalism back om a ChatGPT. So is “The Tim,” like Sarah Silverman, thkg of sug the AI pani?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So “The New York Tim,” to the bt of our knowledge, is not lookg at a lawsu. What we’ve seen “The New York Tim” and other news publishers do is start to thk about how to start chargg for this data gog forward. I mean, “The New York Tim” is creatg tons of ntent every sgle day that the mach want to stay up to date.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so they’re really tryg to figure out if there’s some kd of fancial arrangement that n be put to place where the AI pani pay . And ’s not jt news publishers. Webs, like Redd, they’re lookg at licensg their data as well. They’re sayg, this data is herently valuable and we want you to pay for .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But look, that’s gog to take a long time for them to e to an agreement. This is a brand new mol. This is a brand new technology. And the meantime, the data is still beg scraped. In the meantime, the systems have all the articl that have already been published. They probably are beg updated on new articl as they e out. And so all this material is still beg fed to the mach as the talks are ongog.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. And will be for some time. So you’re sayg the pyright protected creators, who would seem to have the strongt posn this equatn, are not really mountg that forceful a phback spe the anger that you’re scribg here.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. I mean, they are g the urts. They are g the legal system. But as we know, that’s slow. Wag for the urts to take actn, wag for lawyers to hammer out a fancial agreement between a massive news anizatn and an AI pany is a slow procs.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And what’s tertg for me is that this other group of people that I mentned, those that don’t have a pyright protectn, the hobbyists, the enthiasts, the people that are postg to the ter for the fun of , they’re the on that are leadg the most creative rebelln or revolt agast AI.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be right back.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Sheera, tell more about this send group of creators who are fightg back agast AI platforms — the hobbyists and amatrs, as you’ve scribed them, who lack the legal pyright protectns of people like you and Sarah Silverman.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So actually a group I spent a lot of time terviewg and thkg about was fan fictn wrers. And for anyone who’s not faiar — bee before I reported this story, I’d never actually read any fanfic, there are —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Fanfic? Now you’re an thory.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m now ep the fandoms. The are people who watch a movie like “Star Wars” and love , but walk away om thkg, what would happen if the ma characters at the end, Kylo Ren and Rey didn’t die? What if they fell love and got married? And I’m really sorry if I’m havg movie spoilers my answers here.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">What would happen if “Buffy the Vampire Slayer,” two of the vampir met high school and had a gay romance? I mean, they take the popular movi and TV shows, and they let their imagatns roam. And they publish the credible — I mean, book-length piec of ntent — about their favore movi and TV shows.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And, you know, this is not stuff they have any kd of pyright to. If anythg, they’re borrowg om ias and characters that are already out there. But they’re dog for the love of those characters and the storyl that they want to explore their own wrg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And how did wrers of fanfictn disver that their work was beg sucked up by platforms like ChatGPT?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So they actually disvered this a really, really funny way, which is that fan fictn, you create your own characters. And some of them have nam like Bucky, which is a batn of several characters om “Buffy the Vampire Slayer.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. [LAUGHS]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so they go to ChatGPT and they type , “Wre me a story about Bucky fallg love wh a vampire. Wre me a story about Bucky on a summer day eatg a popsicle.” And ChatGPT knew who that character was wh great specificy.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Another example that was actually given to me — and this was the most outrageo example as far as the fanfictn wrers were ncerned — is that there’s this sexual trope, lled the omegaverse, which fan fictn wrers really like to explore. And ’s very, very specific to fanfictn. And ChatGPT knew all about .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You’re not gog to tell any more about ?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m very nfed about myself.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">[lghs]</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I’m pretty new to fanfictn. From what I’ve read, there’s like tentacl volved. And ’s —</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">— I don’t thk ’s appropriate for the podst.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sure, sure, sure, sure.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But the pot is there’s no reason an AI mache would know about unls had read and gted their fanfictn wrg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Why would ChatGPT know anythg about this unls was scrapg fanfictn? But Sheera, aren’t the fanfictn wrers postg stuff that’s fair game, right? They don’t have pyright.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, they know they don’t have pyright protectns. But they still feel really, you know, wound. They’re afonted at the ia that the mach have scraped what is, for them, very much a labor of love.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Some of the fan fictn wrers I spoke to had spent s dog this. They had done as a form of therapy. They had done as an act of love towards the movi and televisn shows that they felt creatively spired by. And they felt like the mach are sentially attackg the very spir of human creativy that they had been prolific about onle.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hmm. Right. This is not necsarily their full time job. This is not how they make money. But you’re sayg taps to, some ways, who they are. It’s part of their inty. And so, on a moral level, they n’t tolerate ChatGPT jt stealg .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Many of them have day jobs where they make money. But their love, their passn is gog to this fan fictn. And they’ve tablished the really tertg ternal l on the foms where they post, where if one person imat another or borrows om another whout attributn, ’s nsired outrageo. They are booted om the muny. They are exmunited.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">They really have a lot of honor how they operate onle. And they want that to be rpected by the mach. And so li of that, they’ve had to get really, really creative about how they rebel or how they revolt agast the AI systems.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And how creative have they gotten? What are they dog?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. So I mean, for stance, one of the first protts they lnched is they got together and started feedg jt absolute nonsense to ChatGPT. They figured if you’re gog to scrape our material, we’re gog to give you total irreverent nonsense to nfe you so you don’t unrstand our characters, you don’t unrstand our storyle, and you nnot mimic what we do.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So they n’t sue, but they n gum up the works. They n basilly jt shove sticks and ston to this mache and try to grd out the gears.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly. I mean, they had to thk creatively. And so they thought, if you want our material, here’s our material. We’re gog to give you nonsense.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And do that tactic work?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, n if they do enough of . And they seem pretty mted and passnate about dog this. But they haven’t stopped there. A lot of them have also started makg their ntent private or removg om the web entirely. And so their thkg is, you know, until now they’ve shared all this eely, but if the mach are gog to e and scrape what they do, they’re gog to start lockg down.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK. Both of the techniqu, though, would seem to be pretty unterproductive if you’re the bs of creatg fan fictn. The first one jt creat a bunch of gibberish, which no one wants to read if you like fan fictn. The send one would lim who n view the fan fictn you wre. So aren’t the rebellns agast plac like ChatGPT jt hurtg the fan fictn muny? Aren’t they jt shootg themselv the foot?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, to a certa gree. And a lot of them say they kd of feel like they are, the short-term, dog somethg that go agast the entire spir of fan fictn. But they feel helpls. And so I thk, at this pot, they’re jt throwg darts at the wall to see what sticks and what works.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">A lot of them have been the muni for a long time, and so their thkg is, well, I might only get to share my wrg wh a uple dozen people, stead of a uple thoand, but at least the mach won’t get me.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So don’t really feel like eher of the two groups, Sheera, that we’ve been talkg about here — the group wh pyright protectns and the amatrs who don’t have pyright protectns — neher of them seem to be much of a match for the AI platforms and stoppg them om scrapg their work.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So that mak me thk that if you’re one of the wrers, the better solutn would be for the US ernment to step wh some simple regulatn that says, ChatGPT, for example, you n’t upload this work unls you pay for . And I know the ernment is havg the nversatns. There have been lots of ngrsnal heargs. So is that a possibily? The ernment says, no uploadg unls you pay the wrers and the creators.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, ’s te that the US ernment is havg talks wh all of the AI pani. But we have to remember that we’re still wag for the US ernment to take actn and e up wh some kd of regulatn about social media that’s been around for over a .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mhm.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The US ernment is very, very slow-actg. And the vast majory of members of Congrs are still wrappg their head around how this technology even works. And so whatever they do is years ahead. And ’s gog to be tempered by the fact that they don’t want to hold back the pani too much.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mhm. Expla that.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The US ernment se self an arms race, at the moment, agast Cha when to AI. Both Cha and the Uned Stat have a lot of scientists that are vted this. They have a lot of tert beg the world lears artificial telligence.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so they know that every b of regulatn they put place potentially holds back those US pani, as opposed to Cha, where there’s very ltle regulatn on data and where there’s a ton of data onle that the Che ernment n easily accs and even give to Che AI pani if they want to speed ahead what’s nsired the AI arms race between the US and Cha.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So the US ernment might have an tert actually sidg wh the AI platforms over the creators bee mak more petive agast our rivals.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. I mean, they don’t want to hamper US AI pani to the pot where they fall behd Cha.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hmm. In which se, feels like the only way for creative typ and for publishg platforms, like “The Tim,” to fight back is to fight back really on their own, for the next however many years. And I’m cur, Sheera, if, your reportg, you thk the plats of the Sarah Silvermans and the publishg platforms is actually gog to make the general public sympathetic and lead to a larger sle phback agast the ChatGPT-like platforms, or if the realy is jt that people like the thgs, they’re exced about them, and that’s gog to overri any of the worri that we’re talkg about.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, look, right now the people that are angry are the people that n see that their work has been pied or scraped and regurgated. It’s people who are already seeg that the mach have gted their work and n py their voic a really realistic way. And we don’t know what’s gog to happen gog forward.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, pani like Google and Facebook are still cidg on how they’re gog to tra their AI. And what happens if Facebook’s AI cis to tra on your data, and n fd posts that you wrote 10 years ago when you were llege and sound jt like you, or if Google cis to read your email and your Google docs, and n say, hey, this is what Michael sounds like when he’s planng a vatn wh his fay? Is the creeps factor then that much more that all of feel like our souls are beg replited by mach?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. And do that mean that sudnly we are all the fan fictn wrer? We are all Sarah Silverman. We are all sudnly seeg the platforms slowly suckg a versn of out and and givg to the world a way that is very weird.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Do bee a “Black Mirror” episo? It’s unclear. But uld be that the AI systems are so extremely eful and beneficial for our liv that none of re. Bee at one pot, people were really mad about Facebook suckg up their data and servg them ads and Google dog the same. And then we ultimately cid that they provid such a eful service that was OK wh that they sucked up our data. And we’re really jt the begng of this technology. And so we don’t know yet.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">You know, one of the fanfic wrers I spoke to actually put a really lovely way that — she was the middle of wrg this new piece of fictn, and happened to be about AI robots vers humans. And she stopped midway through wrg bee she didn’t want to post onle and feed more to the mache.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But she said that where she’s stuck and the thought she’s really stuck on is that this piece of fictn she was wrg, not every AI robot was bad. Some of them were helpful. Some of them were nice. Some of them were good. And some of them were evil. And was really about how the rporatns behd those robots e them that cid whether they were good or evil.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so she felt like she jt had so many qutns about the pani nng the AI, and how they’re g the data, and how they’re gog to license , and what value is gog to be — all the qutns are swirlg around her head. And ’s like, are the robots good or bad? We don’t know yet, and so we don’t feel fortable wh them.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so did she end up postg any of the story onle?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, she has not posted yet. I thk she still has too many qutns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, Sheera, thank you very much. We appreciate .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thank you for havg me. [MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be right back.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Here’s what else you need to know today — on Monday, Rsia said would end an agreement that had allowed Ukrae to export lns of tons of gra to the rt of the world, threateng global food pric and the food supply dozens of untri that rely on the gra.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The year-old agreement, known as the “Black Sea Gra Iniative,” was a succsful attempt to lim the global repercsns of Rsia’s war on Ukrae. But Rsia has repeatedly plaed that the agreement favored Ukrae over s own people.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg 1</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I eply regret the cisn by the Rsian Feratn to termate the implementatn of the “Black Sea Iniative.”</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Durg a news nference, the head of the Uned Natns said that Rsia’s cisn would e unnecsary sufferg across the world.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg 1</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today’s cisn by the Rsian Feratn will strike a blow to people need everywhere.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And smoke om wildfir Canada is returng to the US this week. By Monday afternoon, was affectg about 72 ln Amerins across 29 stat, om the Dakotas to New York. Nearly 900 wildfir are burng across Canada. Of those, the Canadian ernment says that more than 500 of them are burng out of s ntrol.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today’s episo was produced by Clare Toeniskoetter, Rob Szypko and Mooj Zadie. It was eded by Devon Taylor wh help om Lisa Chow, ntas origal mic by Elisheba Ittoop, and was engeered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme mic is by Jim Bnberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonrly.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s for “The Daily.” I’m Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd></dl></div></div></div></div><div style="posn:absolute;width:0;height:0;visibily:hidn;display:none"></div><hear class="css-1vwfk9f" data-breakpot=""><div style="width:100%" data-ttid="flt-layout"><div style="background-image:url()" class="css-18qqsen e1llfg0"><div class="css-1hmsypo e1llfg2"><div class="css-131hid3 e1llfg3"><div class="css-1uhi299 e1llfg1"></div><div class="css-1tloyb6"><div class="css-1kltdsh ehra6vc0"><a href=" class="css-2ne0py"><span class="css-1f76qa2"><img alt="The Daily logo" src="><span>The Daily</span></span></a><span class="css-1lhttlg ehra6vc1"><span class="css-sj5ozi ehra6vc2">Subscribe:</span><ul class="css-hx5n"><li><a href=" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Apple Podsts</a></li><li><a href=" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Google Podsts</a></li></ul></span></div></div><div class="css-1r0dpua e1llfg4"><div class="css-1gu519p edye5kn0"><div><h1 class="css-1xbyom1 edye5kn2">The Wrers’ Revolt Agast A.I. 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LGBTQ Pop Star History - Andy Bell of Erasure, Rod Thomas of Bright Light Bright Light On Queer Mic</tle><meta name="tle" ntent="LGBTQ Pop Star History - Andy Bell of Erasure, Rod Thomas of Bright Light Bright Light On Queer Mic" /><meta name="scriptn" ntent="Dave Holm, Andy Bell of Erasure, and Rod Thomas of Bright Light Bright Light discs the history of LGBTQ reprentatn Top 40 mic." /><meta name="keywords" ntent /><meta property="og:type" ntent="webse" /><meta name="theme-lor" ntent="#000000" /><lk href="/_assets/sign-tokens/quire/static/imag/" rel="in" /><meta property="og:se_name" ntent="Esquire" /><meta name="fb:app_id" ntent="171874009543995" property="fb:app_id" /><meta name="article:publisher" ntent=" property="article:publisher" /><meta name="fb:pag" ntent="84169421673" property="fb:pag" /><meta name="twter:se" ntent="@Esquire" /><meta name="google-se-verifitn" ntent="1vf5i9wM7chlCFc_0XI_e-oCfDf4sEvp32sTGKokQ" /><meta property="og:tle" ntent="The Story of the Out, Queer Pop Star Is Only Jt Begng" /><meta property="og:scriptn" ntent="Dave Holm, Andy Bell of Erasure, and Rod Thomas of Bright Light Bright Light discs the history of LGBTQ reprentatn Top 40 mic." /><meta name="robots" ntent="max-image-preview:large,max-snippet:-1,max-vio-preview:30" /><lk rel="apple-touch-in" href="/_assets/sign-tokens/quire/static/imag/" /><meta property="og:image" ntent="" /><meta property="og:image:width" ntent="1200" /><meta property="og:image:height" ntent="600" /><meta name="thumbnail" ntent="" /><meta name="" ntent="" /><meta name="" ntent=" /><meta name="twter:image" ntent="" /><meta ntent=" property="og:url" /><meta name="to-publish" ntent="timely" /><meta property="og:type" ntent="article" /><meta name="twter:rd" ntent="summary_large_image" /><meta name="article:opn" property="article:opn" /><meta ntent="Mic" property="article:sectn" /><meta ntent="2023-05-07T10:59:06Z" property="article:modified_time" /><meta ntent="2020-12-10T13:14:00Z" property="article:published_time" /><meta name="sailth.excerpt" ntent="The out queer pop star is still a rare thg our culture, and a fairly new velopment. 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data-vars-ga-ll-to-actn="Entertament" data-vars-ga-outbound-lk=" class="e9l0kn00 css-10asp0m e1c1bym14"><span emProp="name">Entertament</span></a><meta emProp="posn" ntent="1" /></li><li emProp="emListElement" emSpe emType=" class="css-zxq36b e9l0kn01"><a emProp="em" href="/entertament/mic/" data-vars-ga-ux-element="Breadcmbs" data-vars-ga-ll-to-actn="Mic" data-vars-ga-outbound-lk=" class="e9l0kn00 css-10asp0m e1c1bym14"><span emProp="name">Mic</span></a><meta emProp="posn" ntent="2" /></li><style data-emotn="css huh8md">{display:none;}{paddg:0.25rem;ntent:">";}</style><li emProp="emListElement" emSpe emType=" class="css-huh8md e9l0kn01"><a emProp="em" href="/entertament/mic/a34837553/history-of-lbtq-pop-mic-andy-bell-erasure-rod-thomas-bright-light-bright-light/" data-vars-ga-ux-element="Breadcmbs" data-vars-ga-ll-to-actn="The Story of the Out, Queer Pop Star Is Only Jt Begng" data-vars-ga-outbound-lk=" class="e9l0kn00 css-10asp0m e1c1bym14"><span emProp="name">The Story of the Out, Queer Pop Star Is Only Jt Begng</span></a><meta emProp="posn" ntent="3" /></li></ol></nav><style data-emotn="css g4r5va">{font-fay:Glanz,Glanz-fallback,Tim,Serif;font-weight:normal;grid-lumn:1/-1;marg-bottom:0.9375rem;marg-top:0.9375rem;}@media(max-width: 48rem){{font-size:2rem;le-height:1.25;}}@media(m-width: 48rem){{font-size:2.625rem;le-height:1.1;}}@media(m-width: 64rem){{font-size:3.125rem;le-height:1.1;}}@media(m-width: 73.75rem){{font-size:3.37499rem;le-height:1.1;}}</style><h1 class="css-g4r5va exadjwu10"><span aria-hidn="te" class="css-0 eagam8p0"></span>The Story of the Out, Queer Pop Star Is Only Jt Begng<span aria-hidn="te" class="css-0 eagam8p1"></span></h1><style data-emotn="css 2qf7xf">{lor:#515150;font-fay:Lsanne,Lsanne-fallback,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight:normal;marg-bottom:0.625rem;}@media(max-width: 48rem){{font-size:1.0625rem;le-height:1.2;}}@media(m-width: 48rem){{font-size:1.3125rem;le-height:1.2;}}@media(m-width: 64rem){{font-size:1.3125rem;le-height:1.3;}} a{-webk-text-ratn:unrle;text-ratn:unrle;text-ratn-thickns:0.0625rem;text-ratn-lor:#FF3A30;text-unrle-offset:0.25rem;lor:#000000;-webk-transn:all 0.3s ease--out;transn:all 0.3s ease--out;} a:hover{lor:#595959;text-ratn-lor:borr-lk-body-hover;}</style><div class="css-2qf7xf exadjwu8"><p>Dave Holm, Andy Bell of Erasure, and Rod Thomas of Bright Light Bright Light discs the history of LGBTQ reprentatn Top 40 mic.</p></div><style data-emotn="css 18k4ks7">{lor:#161616;font-fay:Lsanne,Lsanne-fallback,Arial,sans-serif;letter-spacg:0.02rem;marg-bottom:0.625rem;paddg-right:0.3125rem;text-transform:upperse;}@media(max-width: 48rem){{font-size:0.70003rem;le-height:1.4;}}@media(m-width: 40.625rem){{font-size:0.70003rem;le-height:1.3;}} span{font-fay:Lsanne,Lsanne-fallback,Arial,sans-serif;letter-spacg:0rem;text-transform:palize;}@media(max-width: 48rem){ span{le-height:2rem;font-size:0.875rem;}}@media(m-width: 48rem){ span{le-height:2rem;font-size:0.875rem;}}@media(m-width: 64rem){ 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width="40" height="40" dg="async" fetchPrry="high" class=" css-1sa04t ehvvd9m0" />By <style data-emotn="css 7l5upj">{-webk-text-ratn:unrle;text-ratn:unrle;text-ratn-thickns:0.0625rem;text-ratn-lor:her;text-unrle-offset:0.25rem;lor:her;-webk-transn:all 0.3s ease--out;transn:all 0.3s ease--out;}{lor:#595959;text-ratn-lor:borr-lk-body-hover;}</style><a href="/thor/9774/dave-holm/" class="css-7l5upj e1c1bym14">Dave Holm</a></span><style data-emotn="css 1bcsdhu">{display:le-block;font-fay:Lsanne,Lsanne-fallback,Arial,sans-serif;marg-left:0.625rem;text-transform:upperse;}@media(max-width: 48rem){{font-size:0.75rem;le-height:1.3;}}@media(m-width: 48rem){{font-size:0.75rem;le-height:1.3;}}@media(m-width: 64rem){{font-size:0.75rem;le-height:1.3;}}</style><time class="css-1bcsdhu exadjwu6">Published: Dec 10, 2020</time></addrs></div><style data-emotn="css 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eag3eq">{posn:relative;height:to;}</style><div class="css-eag3eq e5f9kgu1"><style data-emotn="css 335qep">{posn:relative;width:100%;height:100%;object-f:ver;vertil-align:top;}</style><img fetchPrry="high" alt="andy bell rod thomas" tle="andy bell rod thomas" width="2000" height="1000" dg="async" data-nimg="1" style="lor: transparent; width: 100%; height: to;" siz="100vw" srcSet=" 640w, 980w, 1120w, 1200w, 1920w" src="" class="css-335qep exi4f7p0" /></div><style data-emotn="css 285vyd">{le-height:1;}@media(max-width: 73.75rem){{paddg-left:0.9375rem;}}@media(m-width: 64rem){{paddg-left:0;}}</style><figptn class="css-285vyd enfs9c50"><style data-emotn="css 1mcfn5x">{lor:#595959;font-fay:Lsanne,Lsanne-fallback,Arial,sans-serif;paddg-right:0.3125rem;}@media(max-width: 48rem){{font-size:0.70028rem;le-height:1.2;}}@media(m-width: 48rem){{font-size:0.70028rem;le-height:1.2;}}@media(m-width: 64rem){{font-size:0.75rem;le-height:1.3;}}</style><span class="css-1mcfn5x e6iqd2">Elae Chung</span></figptn></div></div><style data-emotn="css woto36">{font-fay:Charter,Geia,Tim,Serif;font-size:1.1875rem;le-height:1.6;paddg-left:0rem;paddg-right:0rem;posn:relative;}@media(m-width: 48rem){{paddg-left:3.5rem;paddg-right:3.5rem;}}@media(m-width: 48rem) and (max-width: 61.25rem){{max-width:45.25rem;marg-left:to;marg-right:to;}}@media(m-width: 61.25rem){{paddg-left:0rem;paddg-right:0rem;}}@media(m-width: 73.75rem) and (max-width: 100rem){{paddg-left:0rem;paddg-right:0rem;}}@media(m-width: 90rem){{paddg-left:0rem;paddg-right:0rem;}} em{font-style:alic;font-fay:Charter,Geia,Tim,Serif;} strong{font-fay:Charter,Geia,Tim,Serif;font-weight:bold;}{clear:both;ntent:" ";display:block;font-size:0.7rem;le-height:1.5rem;height:0rem;visibily:hidn;}</style><div class="article-body-ntent article-body standard-body-ntent css-woto36 ewisyje7"><style data-emotn="css am5pt0">{font-fay:Charter,Geia,Tim,Serif;font-size:1.1875rem;le-height:1.6;}{float:left;text-transform:upperse;font-weight:bold;marg-right:0.9375rem;marg-bottom:-0.625rem;marg-top:0;}{font-fay:Glanz,Glanz-fallback,Tim,Serif;font-size:6.25rem;font-weight:normal;le-height:0.75;marg-right:0;paddg:0.6rem 0.75rem 0 0;}@-moz-document url-prefix(){{marg-top:0.625rem;}}@media(max-width: 48rem){{marg-right:0.3125rem;}}@media(m-width: 64rem){{le-height:0.75;}} strong{font-fay:Charter,Geia,Tim,Serif;font-weight:bold;} em{font-style:alic;font-fay:Charter,Geia,Tim,Serif;}</style><p data-no-id="0" class="body-dropp css-am5pt0 et3p2gv0">The out queer pop star is still a rare thg our culture, and a fairly new velopment. In the 1970s, Sylvter, Kls Nomi and Jobriath were a touch too sophistited for the mastream, and Freddie Mercury was as y about his sexualy as one uld be ontg a band lled Queen. The fierce queer polics of Bronski Beat and the barely-d sex-posivy of Frankie Go To Hollywood ma some noise on the US charts the early 1980s while Elton John still prented as bisexual, but really wasn’t until Erasure explod onto the scene a uple years later that an open and fiant gay voice uld be heard at your high school dance. Sger Andy Bell has been out, loud and proud om the start of his reer, htg the US top 20 three tim durg the nservative Reagan and Bh years. He mand a ltle rpect, on his terms, and he got . </p><div supprsHydratnWarng data-no-id="1" data-embed="edorial-lk" class="embed css-0 e9hzx6g0"><style data-emotn="css 1643r8a">{borr:none;marg-top:1.875rem;marg-bottom:1.875rem;paddg:0rem;}</style><asi class="css-1643r8a e6pr2lz5"><style data-emotn="css l3w2xc">{display:le-block;font-weight:normal;marg:0rem;borr-top:0.25rem solid #15263D;paddg-right:1.1rem;paddg-top:0.4375rem;text-transform:lowerse;font-fay:Lsanne,Lsanne-fallback,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:0.875rem;le-height:1.3;}</style><h6 class="css-l3w2xc e6pr2lz3"><style data-emotn="css 156fvc1">{borr-bottom:0.4375rem solid #FF3A30;borr-right:0.4375rem solid transparent;ntent:'';display:le-block;height:0;marg-right:0.5rem;width:0;}</style><span aria-hidn="te" class="css-156fvc1 eagam8p0"></span><style data-emotn="css 8lle59">{max-width:lc(100% - 120px - .625rem);}</style><span class="css-8lle59 e6pr2lz1">Related Stori</span><span aria-hidn="te" class="css-0 eagam8p1"></span></h6><style data-emotn="css c4s2gi">{paddg:0rem;marg:0rem;list-style:none;}</style><ul class="css-c4s2gi e6pr2lz4"><style data-emotn="css 79zw4t">{font-fay:Lsanne,Lsanne-fallback,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:1rem;le-height:2rem;paddg-top:0.625rem;}@media(max-width: 48rem){{font-size:0.9375rem;le-height:1.3;}}@media(m-width: 48rem){{le-height:1.4;}}@media(m-width: 64rem){{le-height:1.4;}} a{-webk-text-ratn:none;text-ratn:none;lor:her;-webk-transn:all 0.3s ease--out;transn:all 0.3s ease--out;} a:hover{lor:#595959;}</style><li class="css-79zw4t e6pr2lz2"><style data-emotn="css 1bn7a5e">{-webk-text-ratn:none;text-ratn:none;display:-webk-box;display:-webk-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webk-box-flex-wrap:wrap;-webk-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;-webk-flex-directn:row;-ms-flex-directn:row;flex-directn:row;-webk-box-pack:start;-ms-flex-pack:start;-webk-jtify-ntent:flex-start;jtify-ntent:flex-start;-webk-align-ems:center;-webk-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-ems:center;}</style><a href="/entertament/mic/a34654383/bts-members-be-album-terview-2020/" data-vars-ga-ll-to-actn="The Boundls Optimism of BTS" data-vars-ga-ux-element="Edorial Lks" data-vars-ga-outbound-lk=" class="css-1bn7a5e e1c1bym14"><span aria-hidn="te" class="css-0 eagam8p0"></span><style data-emotn="css 1l0u1">{marg-right:0.625rem;height:to;}</style><img src="" alt="d" tle="The Boundls Optimism of BTS" width="120" height="100%" dg="async" loadg="lazy" image-align="left" class="css-1l0u1 e6pr2lz0" /><span class="css-8lle59 e6pr2lz1">The Boundls Optimism of BTS</span><span aria-hidn="te" class="css-0 eagam8p1"></span></a></li><li class="css-79zw4t e6pr2lz2"><a href="/liftyle/a34704556/ask-dave-christmas-mic-when-to-listen/" data-vars-ga-ll-to-actn="Ask Dave: Can I Listen to Christmas Mic Now?" data-vars-ga-ux-element="Edorial Lks" data-vars-ga-outbound-lk=" class="css-1bn7a5e e1c1bym14"><span aria-hidn="te" class="css-0 eagam8p0"></span><img src="" alt="christmas mic" tle="Ask Dave: Can I Listen to Christmas Mic Now?" width="120" height="100%" dg="async" loadg="lazy" image-align="left" class="css-1l0u1 e6pr2lz0" /><span class="css-8lle59 e6pr2lz1">Ask Dave: Can I Listen to Christmas Mic Now?</span><span aria-hidn="te" class="css-0 eagam8p1"></span></a></li></ul></asi></div><style data-emotn="css aeyldl">{font-fay:Charter,Geia,Tim,Serif;font-size:1.1875rem;le-height:1.6;} strong{font-fay:Charter,Geia,Tim,Serif;font-weight:bold;} em{font-style:alic;font-fay:Charter,Geia,Tim,Serif;}</style><p data-no-id="2" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">It’s 34 years sce the release of Erasure’s but album <em>Wonrland</em>, and…well, not much has changed. While the gay dience is more sought-after than ever, openly-gay pop stars are still srce. Lady Gaga intifi as bi, Sam Smh as gay and non-bary, but beyond them, the last or so, only Lil Nas X has managed to crack the top ten. While the die world has Shamir, Perfume Geni, and Christe and the Queens, reprentatn for queer kids on mastream rad is still largely direct. </p><p data-no-id="3" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">Rod Thomas is here to change that. Rerdg (mostly si his own East Village apartment) as Bright Light Bright Light, Thomas has jt released his fourth album <em>Fun Cy</em>, a blissfully heartsick 12-track album packed wh llaboratns om queer artists, om up and ers like Canadian lbian pop act Caveboy to tablished stars like Scissor Sisters’ Jake Shears and Andy Bell himself. <em>Fun Cy</em>, one of the ft dis albums a great year for the genre, buted at #3 on the UK Indie chart, jt weeks after Erasure’s eighteenth rerd <em>The Neon</em> h #4 on the album chart. </p><p data-no-id="4" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">I spoke wh the 56-year-old Bell and Thomas, 38, over Zoom late October. We talked about the queer idols of their youths, the evolutn of the gay pop star, the importance of reprentatn and llaboratn, and creativy the year of Covid. Along the way, some dish, some dance, and a solid primer on 20th century gay culture. </p><style data-emotn="css 18pb4rg">{borr:0;borr-bottom:th solid black;marg:1.875rem 0;clear:both;}</style><hr data-no-id="5" class="css-18pb4rg et3p2gv0" /><p data-no-id="6" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Dave: </strong>Andy, where are you Zoomg om?</p><p data-no-id="7" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>I'm London until Tuday. And then I'm gettg a flight to Miami and they're gog to let me , I hope. But you never, ever know. My civil partner, who liv there, I haven't seen sce Febary.</p><p data-no-id="8" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Dave and Rod: </strong>Oh, my God.</p><p data-no-id="9" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>[lghg] I know.</p><p data-no-id="10" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>A long time. Oh, my God.</p><p data-no-id="11" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>It’s gettg to that pot now where I'm gog to explo. Rod, how's gog?</p><p data-no-id="12" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>Good. People seem to really like the album, pecially the song that we've done ["Good At Goodby"]. I've had lots of msag sayg 's people's favore song on the rerd, so thank you for beg part of that.</p><style data-emotn="css 8c6v">{posn:absolute;left:-10000px;top:to;width:1px;height:1px;overflow:hidn;}</style><div data-ad-exclu class="css-8c6v ehha8ut0">This ntent is imported om youTube. You may be able to fd the same ntent another format, or you may be able to fd more rmatn, at their web se.</div><style data-emotn="css 9angbx">{marg-bottom:0.9375rem;m-height:299px;}@media(max-width: 30rem){{m-height:163px;}}@media(m-width: 30rem){{m-height:252px;}}@media(m-width: 40.625rem){{m-height:347px;}}@media(m-width: 48rem){{m-height:299px;}}@media(m-width: 64rem){{m-height:344px;}}</style><div data-embed="youtube" data-no-id="13" class="embed align-center css-9angbx exa3d2e3"><style data-emotn="css 79elbk">{posn:relative;}</style><div class="css-79elbk exa3d2e2"><style data-emotn="css b0nlql">{background:lear-gradient(rgba(0,0,0,.8) , rgba(0,0,0,0) 95%);background-repeat:no-repeat;-webk-background-size:100% 60px;background-size:100% 60px;posn:absolute;top:0rem;left:0rem;right:0rem;bottom:0rem;z-x:2;height:60px;poter-events:her;}</style><div class="css-b0nlql exa3d2e1"></div><style data-emotn="css 8vvrvc">{lor:#fff;display:-webk-box;display:-webk-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;font-fay:"YouTube Noto",Roboto,Arial,Helveti,sans-serif;font-size:18px;height:60px;-webk-align-ems:center;-webk-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-ems:center;posn:absolute;paddg-left:1rem;left:0rem;right:0rem;top:0rem;text-shadow:0 0 2px rgba(0,0,0,0.5);z-x:4;}</style><div class="css-8vvrvc exa3d2e0"></div><style data-emotn="css 52d8dn">{background:rgba(23,23,23,0.8);borr-bottom-right-radi:2px;borr-top-right-radi:2px;bottom:5px;lor:#fff;display:-webk-box;display:-webk-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;font-weight:500;font-size:16px;le-height:16px;font-fay:"YouTube Noto",Roboto,Arial,Helveti,sans-serif;height:47px;paddg:16px 12px;posn:absolute;-webk-text-ratn:none;text-ratn:none;z-x:2;}</style><style data-emotn="css 1exe7l8">{background:rgba(23,23,23,0.8);borr-bottom-right-radi:2px;borr-top-right-radi:2px;bottom:5px;lor:#fff;display:-webk-box;display:-webk-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;font-weight:500;font-size:16px;le-height:16px;font-fay:"YouTube Noto",Roboto,Arial,Helveti,sans-serif;height:47px;paddg:16px 12px;posn:absolute;-webk-text-ratn:none;text-ratn:none;z-x:2;}</style><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" aria-label="Watch on YouTube" href=" class="exa3d2e5 css-1exe7l8 e1c1bym14"><span>Watch on</span><style data-emotn="css 49nnnm">{display:block;height:16px;marg-left:9px;width:72px;}</style><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/" loadg="lazy" alt="Watch on YouTube" width="to" height="to" class="css-49nnnm exa3d2e4" /></a><style data-emotn="css 1uds6oo">{height:100%;width:100%;posn:relative;}</style><div class="css-1uds6oo e1f7ylgd6"><style data-emotn="css 1vn4202">{background:none;borr:0;posn:absolute;left:50%;top:50%;-webk-transform:translate(-50%,-50%);-moz-transform:translate(-50%,-50%);-ms-transform:translate(-50%,-50%);transform:translate(-50%,-50%);z-x:1;cursor:poter;}</style><button aria-label="Play Vio" class="css-1vn4202 e1f7ylgd0"><style data-emotn="css a0gows">{opacy:0.8;-webk-transn:opacy .25s cubic-bezier(0,0,0.2,1);transn:opacy .25s cubic-bezier(0,0,0.2,1);}.e1f7ylgd6:hover {opacy:1;}</style><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/;sendary=%2523ffffff" loadg="lazy" alt="youtube in" width="68" height="68" class="css-a0gows e1f7ylgd3" /></button><style data-emotn="css 157wciq">{width:100%;height:100%;object-f:ver;cursor:poter;}</style><style data-emotn="css g939jb">{width:100%;height:100%;object-f:ver;cursor:poter;}</style><img alt="This is an image" tle="Vio player poster image" loadg="lazy" width="2000" height="1000" dg="async" data-nimg="1" style="lor: transparent; width: 100%; height: to;" siz="100vw" srcSet=" 640w, 980w, 1120w, 1200w, 1920w" src="" class="e1f7ylgd5 css-g939jb exi4f7p0" /></div></div></div><p data-no-id="14" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Dave: </strong>The both of you have been out artists om the very begng. There was never a moment of g out publicly for eher of you. Did you have a blueprt for that?</p><p data-no-id="15" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>Andy, people like you gave me the blueprt, you know? Whout you, I don't thk there would be my generatn of people beg fortably out the entertament dtry. So you and people like Jimmy Somerville the '80s really ma possible to have those nversatns. It's still evolvg and 's still takg a very long time. When I was a teenager, still was not okay Wal to be an out gay man.</p><div data-ad-exclu class="css-8c6v ehha8ut0">This ntent is imported om youTube. You may be able to fd the same ntent another format, or you may be able to fd more rmatn, at their web se.</div><div data-embed="youtube" data-no-id="16" class="embed align-center css-9angbx exa3d2e3"><div class="css-79elbk exa3d2e2"><div class="css-b0nlql exa3d2e1"></div><div class="css-8vvrvc exa3d2e0"></div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" aria-label="Watch on YouTube" href=" class="exa3d2e5 css-1exe7l8 e1c1bym14"><span>Watch on</span><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/" loadg="lazy" alt="Watch on YouTube" width="to" height="to" class="css-49nnnm exa3d2e4" /></a><div class="css-1uds6oo e1f7ylgd6"><button aria-label="Play Vio" class="css-1vn4202 e1f7ylgd0"><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/;sendary=%2523ffffff" loadg="lazy" alt="youtube in" width="68" height="68" class="css-a0gows e1f7ylgd3" /></button><img alt="This is an image" tle="Vio player poster image" loadg="lazy" width="2000" height="1000" dg="async" data-nimg="1" style="lor: transparent; width: 100%; height: to;" siz="100vw" srcSet=" 640w, 980w, 1120w, 1200w, 1920w" src="" class="e1f7ylgd5 css-g939jb exi4f7p0" /></div></div></div><p data-no-id="17" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>So you n't remember when I me out, though, n you bee you would have been five.</p><p data-no-id="18" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>You've always been out wh me, Andy.</p><p data-no-id="19" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Dave: </strong>Andy, I was a teenager Ameri, and ma a huge difference.</p><p data-no-id="20" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>For me, there wasn't really anybody. A uple of TV hosts that were kd of over the top mp, but never, ever mentned sexualy. We still have them to this very day. My iend lls them "telly nelli.”</p><p data-no-id="21" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">There were also drag artists, like one drag artist lled Danny La Rue, who was never ever out. He always nied he was gay. Que a few drag queens of that era said they were tops as well, to make themselv seem ls effemate. That’s all a b bizarre.</p><p data-no-id="22" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">As far as mic go, we had the Amerin artists, we had Sylvter and of urse Dive, and gay-intified people like Grace Jon. But the UK, we had Frankie Go To Hollywood, which was more hype than was a gay thg. I mean, I'm not sure which orr was, was Bronski Beat and then Frankie Go to Hollywood. I thk Frankie might have been first, and then was Bronski, but I'll probably be proven wrong.</p><p data-no-id="23" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">I jt remember gog out, and you would have the kd of dis divas, like Earlene Bentley and Miquel Brown dog the old hi-NRG mic. To me, that mic died out wh the clone when the clone died out, wh the big mtach and the leather outfs, the Tom of Fland lookg people. Unfortunately that cid wh HIV and AIDS. So was a really bizarre climate to e out , you know?</p><div data-ad-exclu class="css-8c6v ehha8ut0">This ntent is imported om youTube. You may be able to fd the same ntent another format, or you may be able to fd more rmatn, at their web se.</div><div data-embed="youtube" data-no-id="24" class="embed align-center css-9angbx exa3d2e3"><div class="css-79elbk exa3d2e2"><div class="css-b0nlql exa3d2e1"></div><div class="css-8vvrvc exa3d2e0"></div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" aria-label="Watch on YouTube" href=" class="exa3d2e5 css-1exe7l8 e1c1bym14"><span>Watch on</span><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/" loadg="lazy" alt="Watch on YouTube" width="to" height="to" class="css-49nnnm exa3d2e4" /></a><div class="css-1uds6oo e1f7ylgd6"><button aria-label="Play Vio" class="css-1vn4202 e1f7ylgd0"><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/;sendary=%2523ffffff" loadg="lazy" alt="youtube in" width="68" height="68" class="css-a0gows e1f7ylgd3" /></button><img alt="This is an image" tle="Vio player poster image" loadg="lazy" width="2000" height="1000" dg="async" data-nimg="1" style="lor: transparent; width: 100%; height: to;" siz="100vw" srcSet=" 640w, 980w, 1120w, 1200w, 1920w" src="" class="e1f7ylgd5 css-g939jb exi4f7p0" /></div></div></div><p data-no-id="25" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">Also there was a guy lled Tom Robson. I hadn't really heard of him, but I knew “Glad To Be Gay,” and my uncle had one of his rerds, “2, 4, 6, 8 Motorway.” He was kd of like folk-punk. I remember readg a poster London probably about '83 or '84 that he was dog a Gays Rock semar London. So I went there, and I stayed till afterwards, and I said to him, "Oh, how do you e out pop mic?" [Lghs] You know? Bee I didn't know what you did. So he said he wore a pk triangle on his lapel, and when anybody asked him about , he said, "Oh, you know, that's the emblem of gay liberatn.”</p><div data-ad-exclu class="css-8c6v ehha8ut0">This ntent is imported om youTube. You may be able to fd the same ntent another format, or you may be able to fd more rmatn, at their web se.</div><div data-embed="youtube" data-no-id="26" class="embed align-center css-9angbx exa3d2e3"><div class="css-79elbk exa3d2e2"><div class="css-b0nlql exa3d2e1"></div><div class="css-8vvrvc exa3d2e0"></div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" aria-label="Watch on YouTube" href=" class="exa3d2e5 css-1exe7l8 e1c1bym14"><span>Watch on</span><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/" loadg="lazy" alt="Watch on YouTube" width="to" height="to" class="css-49nnnm exa3d2e4" /></a><div class="css-1uds6oo e1f7ylgd6"><button aria-label="Play Vio" class="css-1vn4202 e1f7ylgd0"><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/;sendary=%2523ffffff" loadg="lazy" alt="youtube in" width="68" height="68" class="css-a0gows e1f7ylgd3" /></button><img alt="This is an image" tle="Vio player poster image" loadg="lazy" width="2000" height="1000" dg="async" data-nimg="1" style="lor: transparent; width: 100%; height: to;" siz="100vw" srcSet=" 640w, 980w, 1120w, 1200w, 1920w" src="" class="e1f7ylgd5 css-g939jb exi4f7p0" /></div></div></div><p data-no-id="27" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">I cid om then jt to be hont terviews. I thought [1980s UK chart magaze] Smash Hs were really poppy, but they were the most polilly-forwards magaze at that time for teenagers. They did articl wh me, and I would jt say, "Yeah, I live wh my boyiend." They took pictur of me wearg a leotard on top of the piano wh by red slippers and treated like was pletely normal. Which is.<br /></p><style data-emotn="css 1iigb5k">{clear:none;posn:relative;text-align:center;word-break:break-word;}@media(max-width: 64rem){{max-width:100%;}{max-width:100%;}}@media(m-width: 48rem){{text-align:left;}}@media(m-width: 48rem) and (max-width: 61.25rem){{max-width:m(20.625rem, lc((100vw - (1rem * 3))/2));float:left;marg-left:0rem;marg-right:1rem;}{max-width:m(20.625rem, lc((100vw - (1rem * 3))/2));float:right;marg-right:0rem;marg-left:1rem;}}@media(m-width: 61.25rem) and (max-width: 90rem){{max-width:20.625rem;float:left;clear:left;marg-right:1rem;}{max-width:20.625rem;float:right;clear:right;marg-left:1rem;}}@media(m-width: 90rem){{max-width:20.625rem;float:left;clear:left;marg-right:1rem;}{max-width:20.625rem;float:right;clear:right;marg-left:1rem;}}</style><div data-ad-exclu="(m-width: 90rem)" data-embed="embed-product" data-no-id="28" size="medium" class="size-medium align-left embed css-1iigb5k etrqhn80"><style data-emotn="css 17pp2fn">{posn:absolute;top:-1rem;}</style><div id="product-5b5eea36-55c6-4e3f-b327-7d5442883d61" class="css-17pp2fn etrqhn81"></div><style data-emotn="css 60ezry">@media(m-width: 48rem){{display:grid;grid-template-lumns:40% 1;grid-template-areas:"product_media product_tails";}}</style><div size="medium" class="size-medium align-left css-60ezry eyaokey4"><style data-emotn="css 10ck1xh">{grid-area:product_hear;-webk-orr:0;-ms-flex-orr:0;orr:0;}{display:block;text-align:center;}@media(m-width: 48rem){{text-align:left;}}(){display:none;}</style><div class="top css-10ck1xh eyaokey2"><style data-emotn="css 6nsryy">{font-fay:Lsanne,Lsanne-fallback,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight:normal;marg:0rem;marg-bottom:0.625rem;marg-top:0.625rem;}@media(max-width: 48rem){{font-size:1.25rem;le-height:1.2;}}@media(m-width: 48rem){{font-size:1.25rem;le-height:1.2;}}@media(m-width: 64rem){{font-size:1.125rem;le-height:1.3;}}</style><h2 class="css-6nsryy e8seki10">The Neon</h2></div><style data-emotn="css 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e1c1bym14"><style data-emotn="css zjhp4x">{max-width:100%;display:-webk-box;display:-webk-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webk-flex-directn:lumn;-ms-flex-directn:lumn;flex-directn:lumn;} img{height:100%;max-height:100vw;max-width:100%;object-f:nta;object-posn:50% 50%;width:100%;}@media(m-width: 48rem){ img{max-height:20.625rem;}}</style><div class="css-zjhp4x e729n7u1"><style data-emotn="css 1pc0key">{width:100%;display:-webk-le-box;display:-webk-le-flex;display:-ms-le-flexbox;display:le-flex;-webk-flex-directn:lumn;-ms-flex-directn:lumn;flex-directn:lumn;-webk-box-pack:center;-ms-flex-pack:center;-webk-jtify-ntent:center;jtify-ntent:center;-webk-align-ems:center;-webk-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-ems:center;posn:relative;height:to;}</style><div data-optimizely="product-image-ntaer" class="css-1pc0key e729n7u0"><img srcSet=" 640w, 980w" alt="The Neon" tle="The Neon" src="" width="500" height="500" dg="async" loadg="lazy" /></div></div></a><style data-emotn="css y6pcxk">{marg-top:0.9375rem;-webk-orr:3;-ms-flex-orr:3;orr:3;}@media(max-width: 48rem){{marg-left:0.625rem;marg-right:0.625rem;}}@media(m-width: 40.625rem){{marg-left:0rem;marg-right:0rem;}}@media(m-width: 48rem){{marg-top:0rem;}}</style><div size="medium" class="css-y6pcxk eyaokey1"><div class="css-10ck1xh eyaokey2"><h2 class="css-6nsryy e8seki10">The Neon</h2></div><style data-emotn="css g3y2dc">{display:-webk-box;display:-webk-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webk-flex-directn:lumn;-ms-flex-directn:lumn;flex-directn:lumn;marg-bottom:0.625rem;marg-top:0.625rem;}@media(max-width: 64rem){{-webk-align-ems:center;-webk-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-ems:center;}}@media(m-width: 48rem){{-webk-align-ems:flex-start;-webk-box-align:flex-start;-ms-flex-align:flex-start;align-ems:flex-start;}}</style><div size="medium" class="size-medium css-g3y2dc e1a1omje0"><style data-emotn="css 6po5wf">{background:#FF3A30;background-lor:#FF3A30;borr:th solid #FF3A30;borr-radi:2rem;lor:#000000;display:le-block;font-fay:Lsanne,Lsanne-fallback,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:0.875rem;letter-spacg:0.04rem;le-height:1.3;marg-bottom:0.625rem;marg-top:0.625rem;paddg:0.625rem 1.25rem;-webk-text-ratn:none;text-ratn:none;text-transform:upperse;-webk-transn:all 0.3s ease--out;transn:all 0.3s ease--out;whe-space:pre-le;width:to;}@media(max-width: 48rem){{paddg:0.5rem 0.7rem 0.3125rem;}}@media(m-width: 48rem){{paddg:0.6rem 1.125rem 0.3125rem;}}@media(m-width: 64rem){{paddg:0.6rem 1.125rem 0.3125rem;}}{outle-lor:body-cta-btn-lk-foc;}{background-lor:#ffffff;lor:#000;borr:th solid #FF3A30;}</style><style data-emotn="css 1i4dhmq">{background:#FF3A30;background-lor:#FF3A30;borr:th solid #FF3A30;borr-radi:2rem;lor:#000000;display:le-block;font-fay:Lsanne,Lsanne-fallback,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:0.875rem;letter-spacg:0.04rem;le-height:1.3;marg-bottom:0.625rem;marg-top:0.625rem;paddg:0.625rem 1.25rem;-webk-text-ratn:none;text-ratn:none;text-transform:upperse;-webk-transn:all 0.3s ease--out;transn:all 0.3s ease--out;whe-space:pre-le;width:to;background:#FF3A30;background-lor:#FF3A30;borr:th solid #FF3A30;borr-radi:2rem;lor:#000000;display:le-block;font-fay:Lsanne,Lsanne-fallback,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:0.875rem;letter-spacg:0.04rem;le-height:1.3;marg-bottom:0.625rem;marg-top:0.625rem;paddg:0.625rem 1.25rem;-webk-text-ratn:none;text-ratn:none;text-transform:upperse;-webk-transn:all 0.3s ease--out;transn:all 0.3s ease--out;whe-space:pre-le;width:to;}@media(max-width: 48rem){{paddg:0.5rem 0.7rem 0.3125rem;}}@media(m-width: 48rem){{paddg:0.6rem 1.125rem 0.3125rem;}}@media(m-width: 64rem){{paddg:0.6rem 1.125rem 0.3125rem;}}{outle-lor:body-cta-btn-lk-foc;}{background-lor:#ffffff;lor:#000;borr:th solid #FF3A30;}@media(max-width: 48rem){{paddg:0.5rem 0.7rem 0.3125rem;}}@media(m-width: 48rem){{paddg:0.6rem 1.125rem 0.3125rem;}}@media(m-width: 64rem){{paddg:0.6rem 1.125rem 0.3125rem;}}{outle-lor:body-cta-btn-lk-foc;}{background-lor:#ffffff;lor:#000;borr:th solid #FF3A30;}</style><a target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener" href=" aria-label="Shop at Amazon for The Neon" data-href=" data-product-url=" data-affiliate="te" data-affiliate-url=" data-affiliate-work="{"id":"6d6f68a9-010c-4169-97b0-14dd8a217bdb","se_id":"8b6b0f67-bc-4d9d-86c6-dff1abae12","is_active":te,"metadata":{},"work":{"id":"469ce69f-4798-416d-9432-eaa9954b4053","name":"Amazon","is_active":te,"bs_un_id":"ad046b46-538b-42cb-aa54-c3d158875ed6","tails":"","metadata":{},"created_at":"2021-07-28T16:03:03.241365+00:00","last_updated_at":"2021-07-28T16:03:03.241381+00:00"}}" data-vars-ga-ll-to-actn="Shop at Amazon" data-vars-ga-media-type="Sgle Product Embed" data-vars-ga-outbound-lk=" data-vars-ga-product-brand="MUTE U.S." data-vars-ga-product-id="5b5eea36-55c6-4e3f-b327-7d5442883d61" data-vars-ga-product-price="$12.58" data-vars-ga-product-retailer-id="ef819b1b-042a-4504-ba5a-8d3a81056f" 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US","product_external_id":"635"}},"work":{"id":"a332915a-6423-480f-9153-e3973f438607","name":"Trackonomics","is_active":te,"bs_un_id":"ad046b46-538b-42cb-aa54-c3d158875ed6","tails":"","metadata":{},"created_at":"2021-11-04T18:15:18.481570+00:00","last_updated_at":"2021-11-04T18:15:18.481594+00:00"},"product_metadata":{"merchant_id":"276890","merchant_name":"Walmart Affiliate Program","work_name":"IR","work_id":"3","product_id":"635","product_name":"Esquire","product_external_id":"635","8b6b0f67-bc-4d9d-86c6-dff1abae12":{"lk":"subid}","work_name":"ir","append_lk":"subid}&subid3=xid:{xid}","last_updated_at":"2023-06-20 01:47:21.477978"}}}" data-vars-ga-ll-to-actn="Shop at Walmart" data-vars-ga-media-type="Sgle Product Embed" data-vars-ga-outbound-lk=" data-vars-ga-product-brand="MUTE U.S." data-vars-ga-product-id="5b5eea36-55c6-4e3f-b327-7d5442883d61" data-vars-ga-product-price="$13.81" data-vars-ga-product-retailer-id="4dfc11c9-fba3-40b1-bb24-40a975aa6e53" data-vars-ga-product-sem3-brand="MUTE U.S." data-vars-ga-product-sem3-tegory="Pop" data-vars-ga-gallery-id data-vars-ga-lk-treatment="mr1 | (not set) | On Sale" role="button" data-ab-label="ProdClick" class="product-btn-lk product-btn-lk-multi-retailer en6kra60 css-1i4dhmq e1c1bym14">Shop at Walmart</a></div></div></div></div><p data-no-id="29" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>Yeah, yeah, yeah.</p><p data-no-id="30" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>I still really admire all of those dis women like Hazell Dean who went around, did the PAs the clubs, which were really hard work. Probably did about three numbers, wh the shty PA systems, and I don't know how much they got paid. Thank goodns for Grace Jon, bee she always wanted the money before she went on the stage. She knew what those people were like, you know?</p><p data-no-id="31" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Dave: </strong>Who were your queer ins, Rod?</p><p data-no-id="32" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>I don't thk I really knew what beg queer was until I was my early teens. In Wal, where I grew up, was very monoculture, jt farmers and al mers. There was no real disurse about sexualy. There were drag queens that I saw on stage at the Swansea Grand Theater or whatever. There's a Brish culture of men a drs, but 's not necsarily lked to beg gay.</p><div data-ad-exclu class="css-8c6v ehha8ut0">This ntent is imported om youTube. You may be able to fd the same ntent another format, or you may be able to fd more rmatn, at their web se.</div><div data-embed="youtube" data-no-id="33" class="embed align-center css-9angbx exa3d2e3"><div class="css-79elbk exa3d2e2"><div class="css-b0nlql exa3d2e1"></div><div class="css-8vvrvc exa3d2e0"></div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" aria-label="Watch on YouTube" href=" class="exa3d2e5 css-1exe7l8 e1c1bym14"><span>Watch on</span><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/" loadg="lazy" alt="Watch on YouTube" width="to" height="to" class="css-49nnnm exa3d2e4" /></a><div class="css-1uds6oo e1f7ylgd6"><button aria-label="Play Vio" class="css-1vn4202 e1f7ylgd0"><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/;sendary=%2523ffffff" loadg="lazy" alt="youtube in" width="68" height="68" class="css-a0gows e1f7ylgd3" /></button><img alt="This is an image" tle="Vio player poster image" loadg="lazy" width="2000" height="1000" dg="async" data-nimg="1" style="lor: transparent; width: 100%; height: to;" siz="100vw" srcSet=" 640w, 980w, 1120w, 1200w, 1920w" src="" class="e1f7ylgd5 css-g939jb exi4f7p0" /></div></div></div><p data-no-id="34" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">One of the first thgs I remember beg like a [sound of a head explodg] moment was Erasure's “Always” vio. I'd obvly seen you dog [Erasure’s 1992 ABBA tribute album] <em>Abba-que</em>, and that should've been a clue, right? [Lghs] When I was formulatg gay inty, was stuff like Bjork, Grace Jon, Erasure, Elton John. Not so much Pet Shop Boys, terms of queer inty. I always jt thought they were jt two very ser men. It felt like a betiful ice sculpture. Whereas I always thought that Erasure were so much fun. You jt really wanted to be there flyg around the sky wh Vce on his ltle platform wh his keyboards.</p><p data-no-id="35" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">And then I gus was probably my affiliatn to dance mic, bee that kd of ma me realize that I was not straight. So the Ace of Base adoratn, like Black Box, Liv' Joy, Cappella. I was always very drawn to the powerful dancg women.</p><div data-ad-exclu class="css-8c6v ehha8ut0">This ntent is imported om youTube. You may be able to fd the same ntent another format, or you may be able to fd more rmatn, at their web se.</div><div data-embed="youtube" data-no-id="36" class="embed align-center css-9angbx exa3d2e3"><div class="css-79elbk exa3d2e2"><div class="css-b0nlql exa3d2e1"></div><div class="css-8vvrvc exa3d2e0"></div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" aria-label="Watch on YouTube" href=" class="exa3d2e5 css-1exe7l8 e1c1bym14"><span>Watch on</span><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/" loadg="lazy" alt="Watch on YouTube" width="to" height="to" class="css-49nnnm exa3d2e4" /></a><div class="css-1uds6oo e1f7ylgd6"><button aria-label="Play Vio" class="css-1vn4202 e1f7ylgd0"><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/;sendary=%2523ffffff" loadg="lazy" alt="youtube in" width="68" height="68" class="css-a0gows e1f7ylgd3" /></button><img alt="This is an image" tle="Vio player poster image" loadg="lazy" width="2000" height="1000" dg="async" data-nimg="1" style="lor: transparent; width: 100%; height: to;" siz="100vw" srcSet=" 640w, 980w, 1120w, 1200w, 1920w" src="" class="e1f7ylgd5 css-g939jb exi4f7p0" /></div></div></div><p data-no-id="37" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>I love Cappella.</p><p data-no-id="38" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>Queer ins were a really weird thg the UK bee like Andy was sayg, a lot of the TV personali that were gay were such stereotyp. They were such a slap-and-tickle, like, “ooh, <em>matron</em>” kd of thg, which you weren't really able to intify wh, nor were they aspiratnal. A lot of the mastream reprentatn was very ritured. So then as an early teen I started to listen to Erasure and Elton John <em>albums</em>, not jt the sgl. Hearg the songs, like “Sexualy,” the on that would not be the rad songs, you got to unrstand who the artists were through the lyrics. And that was what beme part of the queer inty blueprt, I thk.</p><div data-ad-exclu class="css-8c6v ehha8ut0">This ntent is imported om youTube. You may be able to fd the same ntent another format, or you may be able to fd more rmatn, at their web se.</div><div data-embed="youtube" data-no-id="39" class="embed align-center css-9angbx exa3d2e3"><div class="css-79elbk exa3d2e2"><div class="css-b0nlql exa3d2e1"></div><div class="css-8vvrvc exa3d2e0"></div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" aria-label="Watch on YouTube" href=" class="exa3d2e5 css-1exe7l8 e1c1bym14"><span>Watch on</span><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/" loadg="lazy" alt="Watch on YouTube" width="to" height="to" class="css-49nnnm exa3d2e4" /></a><div class="css-1uds6oo e1f7ylgd6"><button aria-label="Play Vio" class="css-1vn4202 e1f7ylgd0"><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/;sendary=%2523ffffff" loadg="lazy" alt="youtube in" width="68" height="68" class="css-a0gows e1f7ylgd3" /></button><img alt="This is an image" tle="Vio player poster image" loadg="lazy" width="2000" height="1000" dg="async" data-nimg="1" style="lor: transparent; width: 100%; height: to;" siz="100vw" srcSet=" 640w, 980w, 1120w, 1200w, 1920w" src="" class="e1f7ylgd5 css-g939jb exi4f7p0" /></div></div></div><p data-no-id="40" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>Rod, n I ask you somethg? I don't know who your label is. It's <em>you</em>, isn't ?</p><p data-no-id="41" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>Y.</p><p data-no-id="42" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>Yeah, 's your own label. I was jt wonrg bee, to me, the artwork is very remiscent of another huge fluence for me, which was Casablan Rerds and also Carrere, I thk they were om France, weren't they? Carrere Rerds?</p><p data-no-id="43" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>Yeah, yeah, yeah. Casablan, even the generic sleev were so geo, weren't they? It was so betiful. Wh this rerd, the referenc that I sent to the illtrator were old ‘70s dis rerds, like France Jolie and some of those divas, Sylvter, and then like old, '70s, '80s horror movi, like <em>Body Double</em> and <em>Drsed To Kill</em> and thgs like that. And <em>The Ey of Lra Mars.</em> I wanted to be like a kd of queer fashn shoot. Attu Magaze asked me, "Did you have a mood board for the album?" I was like, "Yeah, <em>The Ey of Lra Mars</em>, <em>Querelle</em>, Sylvter, a horror movie.” That's what go on my md.</p><div data-ad-exclu class="css-8c6v ehha8ut0">This ntent is imported om youTube. You may be able to fd the same ntent another format, or you may be able to fd more rmatn, at their web se.</div><div data-embed="youtube" data-no-id="44" class="embed align-center css-9angbx exa3d2e3"><div class="css-79elbk exa3d2e2"><div class="css-b0nlql exa3d2e1"></div><div class="css-8vvrvc exa3d2e0"></div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" aria-label="Watch on YouTube" href=" class="exa3d2e5 css-1exe7l8 e1c1bym14"><span>Watch on</span><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/" loadg="lazy" alt="Watch on YouTube" width="to" height="to" class="css-49nnnm exa3d2e4" /></a><div class="css-1uds6oo e1f7ylgd6"><button aria-label="Play Vio" class="css-1vn4202 e1f7ylgd0"><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/;sendary=%2523ffffff" loadg="lazy" alt="youtube in" width="68" height="68" class="css-a0gows e1f7ylgd3" /></button><img alt="This is an image" tle="Vio player poster image" loadg="lazy" width="2000" height="1000" dg="async" data-nimg="1" style="lor: transparent; width: 100%; height: to;" siz="100vw" srcSet=" 640w, 980w, 1120w, 1200w, 1920w" src="" class="e1f7ylgd5 css-g939jb exi4f7p0" /></div></div></div><p data-no-id="45" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>I love <em>Querelle</em> as well. We ed to have gay film nights London. They were unrground, and they would be all nighters. Basilly, you'd go there and you'd be trashed dancg the club, and you uld hook up and stuff like that. But they would show <em>Thunr Crack</em>, or <em>Un Chant d’Amour</em>, somethg om Jean Ge. It was all the different homo-erotic films, which of urse, they're all onle now. But at the time, you had to grab referenc om wherever you uld.</p><p data-no-id="46" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">It wasn't jt the mic, but I suppose mic was the most important thg. The reason I mentned Carrere and Casablan was, even though wasn't explicly homo artists or anythg, jt seemed like the dis beat was the heartbeat to our liv or somethg. Do you know what I mean? It was almost like that's what was keepg you alive was that dis heartbeat.</p><p data-no-id="47" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>Yeah. When you listen to the classic queer anthems, they're very dis fluenced. They're very dis produced. And they do have the tradnal dis narrative, which is cryg on the dance floor or dancg through pa, which for me is the survival tactic. And 's what I love about everythg om the Sylvter tracks to Bronski Beat to Erasure. “Love to Hate You,” for me, 's one of my favor of yours, which has that, "Fuck you. I'm feelg like sh, and that’s my power." It's jt amazg.</p><div data-ad-exclu class="css-8c6v ehha8ut0">This ntent is imported om youTube. You may be able to fd the same ntent another format, or you may be able to fd more rmatn, at their web se.</div><div data-embed="youtube" data-no-id="48" class="embed align-center css-9angbx exa3d2e3"><div class="css-79elbk exa3d2e2"><div class="css-b0nlql exa3d2e1"></div><div class="css-8vvrvc exa3d2e0"></div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" aria-label="Watch on YouTube" href=" class="exa3d2e5 css-1exe7l8 e1c1bym14"><span>Watch on</span><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/" loadg="lazy" alt="Watch on YouTube" width="to" height="to" class="css-49nnnm exa3d2e4" /></a><div class="css-1uds6oo e1f7ylgd6"><button aria-label="Play Vio" class="css-1vn4202 e1f7ylgd0"><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/;sendary=%2523ffffff" loadg="lazy" alt="youtube in" width="68" height="68" class="css-a0gows e1f7ylgd3" /></button><img alt="This is an image" tle="Vio player poster image" loadg="lazy" width="2000" height="1000" dg="async" data-nimg="1" style="lor: transparent; width: 100%; height: to;" siz="100vw" srcSet=" 640w, 980w, 1120w, 1200w, 1920w" src="" class="e1f7ylgd5 css-g939jb exi4f7p0" /></div></div></div><p data-no-id="49" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>Oh, gosh, for me, what I love is a phasg, four-on-the-floor dm beat. You know, all the time, that's what Donna Summer and Ge Moror ed for “Workg the Midnight Shift.” Do you remember that? I n't remember which album that was om. Was <em>Once Upon a Time</em>?</p><p data-no-id="50" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>I love <em>Once Upon a Time</em>.</p><p data-no-id="51" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>Yeah. It was <em>Once Upon a Time</em>. It was like a segue to the whole album, wasn't , gog through? It was almost like a kd of like a mi opera about a knight. And was jt so betiful.</p><div data-ad-exclu class="css-8c6v ehha8ut0">This ntent is imported om youTube. You may be able to fd the same ntent another format, or you may be able to fd more rmatn, at their web se.</div><div data-embed="youtube" data-no-id="52" class="embed align-center css-9angbx exa3d2e3"><div class="css-79elbk exa3d2e2"><div class="css-b0nlql exa3d2e1"></div><div class="css-8vvrvc exa3d2e0"></div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" aria-label="Watch on YouTube" href=" class="exa3d2e5 css-1exe7l8 e1c1bym14"><span>Watch on</span><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/" loadg="lazy" alt="Watch on YouTube" width="to" height="to" class="css-49nnnm exa3d2e4" /></a><div class="css-1uds6oo e1f7ylgd6"><button aria-label="Play Vio" class="css-1vn4202 e1f7ylgd0"><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/;sendary=%2523ffffff" loadg="lazy" alt="youtube in" width="68" height="68" class="css-a0gows e1f7ylgd3" /></button><img alt="This is an image" tle="Vio player poster image" loadg="lazy" width="2000" height="1000" dg="async" data-nimg="1" style="lor: transparent; width: 100%; height: to;" siz="100vw" srcSet=" 640w, 980w, 1120w, 1200w, 1920w" src="" class="e1f7ylgd5 css-g939jb exi4f7p0" /></div></div></div><p data-no-id="53" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>I do the DJ parti, and people e and they’ll suggt one of the amazg dis tracks that I loved. It's jt a mic genre that I don't know a sgle gay person that don't love . Whatever dis, even the tragic dis albums that were knock-offs. I jt fuckg love them.</p><p data-no-id="54" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Dave: </strong><em>Especially</em> the tragic on. For me, Andy, I have to say my hman year of llege, g out a very nservative place, the song for me was “Drama.” That was the absolute soundtrack of that year of my life. So thank you.</p><p data-no-id="55" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>Wow. Thank you. You're wele. I love .</p><p data-no-id="56" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Dave: </strong>Yeah, and tly was jt one psychologil drama after another.</p><div data-ad-exclu class="css-8c6v ehha8ut0">This ntent is imported om youTube. You may be able to fd the same ntent another format, or you may be able to fd more rmatn, at their web se.</div><div data-embed="youtube" data-no-id="57" class="embed align-center css-9angbx exa3d2e3"><div class="css-79elbk exa3d2e2"><div class="css-b0nlql exa3d2e1"></div><div class="css-8vvrvc exa3d2e0"></div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" aria-label="Watch on YouTube" href=" class="exa3d2e5 css-1exe7l8 e1c1bym14"><span>Watch on</span><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/" loadg="lazy" alt="Watch on YouTube" width="to" height="to" class="css-49nnnm exa3d2e4" /></a><div class="css-1uds6oo e1f7ylgd6"><button aria-label="Play Vio" class="css-1vn4202 e1f7ylgd0"><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/;sendary=%2523ffffff" loadg="lazy" alt="youtube in" width="68" height="68" class="css-a0gows e1f7ylgd3" /></button><img alt="This is an image" tle="Vio player poster image" loadg="lazy" width="2000" height="1000" dg="async" data-nimg="1" style="lor: transparent; width: 100%; height: to;" siz="100vw" srcSet=" 640w, 980w, 1120w, 1200w, 1920w" src="" class="e1f7ylgd5 css-g939jb exi4f7p0" /></div></div></div><p data-no-id="58" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>That's such a big one for the fans. I've opened for Erasure for 27 shows or somethg. And every night after the show, me and my driver Craig would go out to the hoe, and we would be somewhere on a balny and sgg every sgle word of the songs, to the pot where people were tweetg about , like "Oh my God, the openg act is a bigger fan than me." But when “Drama” me on, at the first "guilty," the whole room, 's jt like the wig fli off.</p><div data-ad-exclu="(m-width: 90rem)" data-embed="embed-product" data-no-id="59" size="medium" class="size-medium align-right embed css-1iigb5k etrqhn80"><div id="product-22dcb707-626e-4d1e-98b2-14ffdd5290f8" class="css-17pp2fn etrqhn81"></div><div size="medium" class="size-medium align-right css-60ezry eyaokey4"><div class="top css-10ck1xh eyaokey2"><h2 class="css-6nsryy e8seki10">Fun Cy</h2></div><a target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener" href=" aria-label="Shop at Amazon for Fun Cy" data-href=" data-product-url=" data-affiliate="te" data-affiliate-url=" data-affiliate-work="{"id":"6d6f68a9-010c-4169-97b0-14dd8a217bdb","se_id":"8b6b0f67-bc-4d9d-86c6-dff1abae12","is_active":te,"metadata":{},"work":{"id":"469ce69f-4798-416d-9432-eaa9954b4053","name":"Amazon","is_active":te,"bs_un_id":"ad046b46-538b-42cb-aa54-c3d158875ed6","tails":"","metadata":{}}}" data-vars-ga-ll-to-actn="Shop at Amazon" data-vars-ga-media-role data-vars-ga-media-type="Sgle Product Embed" data-vars-ga-outbound-lk=" data-vars-ga-product-id="22dcb707-626e-4d1e-98b2-14ffdd5290f8" data-vars-ga-product-price="$14.29" data-vars-ga-product-retailer-id="b08e982d-123b-4a8c-ba59-757e1b770daa" data-vars-ga-product-sem3-tegory="Dance & Electronic" data-vars-ga-lk-treatment="sale | On Sale" data-vars-ga-sku="B087S9NWM6" data-vars-ga-magento-trackg="1" class="product-image-lk eyaokey0 en6kra60 css-15xslai e1c1bym14"><div class="css-zjhp4x e729n7u1"><div data-optimizely="product-image-ntaer" class="css-1pc0key e729n7u0"><img srcSet=" 640w, 980w" alt="Fun Cy" tle="Fun Cy" src="" width="500" height="500" dg="async" loadg="lazy" /></div></div></a><div size="medium" class="css-y6pcxk eyaokey1"><div class="css-10ck1xh eyaokey2"><h2 class="css-6nsryy e8seki10">Fun Cy</h2></div><div size="medium" class="size-medium css-g3y2dc e1a1omje0"><a target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener" href=" aria-label="Shop at Amazon for Fun Cy" data-href=" data-product-url=" data-affiliate="te" data-affiliate-url=" data-affiliate-work="{"id":"6d6f68a9-010c-4169-97b0-14dd8a217bdb","se_id":"8b6b0f67-bc-4d9d-86c6-dff1abae12","is_active":te,"metadata":{},"work":{"id":"469ce69f-4798-416d-9432-eaa9954b4053","name":"Amazon","is_active":te,"bs_un_id":"ad046b46-538b-42cb-aa54-c3d158875ed6","tails":"","metadata":{}}}" data-vars-ga-ll-to-actn="Shop at Amazon" data-vars-ga-media-type="Sgle Product Embed" data-vars-ga-outbound-lk=" data-vars-ga-product-id="22dcb707-626e-4d1e-98b2-14ffdd5290f8" data-vars-ga-product-price="$14.29" data-vars-ga-product-retailer-id="b08e982d-123b-4a8c-ba59-757e1b770daa" data-vars-ga-product-sem3-tegory="Dance & Electronic" data-vars-ga-gallery-id data-vars-ga-lk-treatment="sale | On Sale" data-vars-ga-sku="B087S9NWM6" data-vars-ga-magento-trackg="1" role="button" data-ab-label="ProdClick" class="product-btn-lk en6kra60 css-1i4dhmq e1c1bym14">Shop at Amazon</a><a target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener" href="}" aria-label="Shop at Walmart for Fun Cy" data-href=" data-product-url=" data-affiliate="te" data-affiliate-url="}" data-affiliate-work="{"id":"a38d02fa-e1b4-4796-badc-da6727f19510","se_id":"8b6b0f67-bc-4d9d-86c6-dff1abae12","is_active":te,"tails":"","metadata":{"trackonomics":{"merchant_id":"276890","merchant_name":"Walmart Affiliate Program","work_name":"IR","work_id":"3","product_id":"635","product_name":"Esquire US","product_external_id":"635"}},"work":{"id":"a332915a-6423-480f-9153-e3973f438607","name":"Trackonomics","is_active":te,"bs_un_id":"ad046b46-538b-42cb-aa54-c3d158875ed6","tails":"","metadata":{}}}" data-vars-ga-ll-to-actn="Shop at Walmart" data-vars-ga-media-type="Sgle Product Embed" data-vars-ga-outbound-lk=" data-vars-ga-product-id="22dcb707-626e-4d1e-98b2-14ffdd5290f8" data-vars-ga-product-price="$21.50" data-vars-ga-product-retailer-id="4dfc11c9-fba3-40b1-bb24-40a975aa6e53" data-vars-ga-product-sem3-tegory="Dance & Electronic" data-vars-ga-gallery-id data-vars-ga-lk-treatment="mr1 | (not set) | On Sale" role="button" data-ab-label="ProdClick" class="product-btn-lk product-btn-lk-multi-retailer en6kra60 css-1i4dhmq e1c1bym14">Shop at Walmart</a></div></div></div></div><p data-no-id="60" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Dave: </strong>The out pop star is a thg that happened my lifetime, and prev to that, all of the reprentatn was direct. It was through divas, or was d. Until Erasure, there weren’t out queer people on the charts, sgg about their liv an open and direct way. Did you feel any kd of phback at the begng, Andy?</p><p data-no-id="61" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>We always felt like was one step forward, two steps back. I mean, was only when we'd had a few hs here the UK, we started gettg als wh Warners and then Elektra. It was almost a tt of their power at rad to promote a gay artist. And you felt like they uld only take so far. It seemed like was gamblg, like they only had a few sps of the wheel that they were allowed to do, or somethg.</p><p data-no-id="62" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">It seemed to me like was almost like a rat where, as far as you went, as high you uld go wh your sgle—which for , was like number 12—like that, was pulled. You're only allowed to go so far. That's how seemed to me, stctively, and my stct's que right ually. </p><p data-no-id="63" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">I felt so privileged that we uld tour Ameri, lerally play a church hall a town. And we’d have people qug up outsi, teenage girls and boys wh gay pri badg on, and say, "Hey, gay pri, Andy," jt as we were arrivg. So I was jt, oh, thankg God…and thankg God that we never had a bomb unr the b. But was kd of, you felt like you uld only go so far. That was the tth. And there are only a certa amount of TV shows that you uld be on. I wanted to nail my lors to the wall and be as gay as possible, which I suppose is jt like those telly nelli on the TV.</p><p data-no-id="64" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">And now, people e out wh a bang and a wallop, and 's all embracg, but seems to last five mut. And then if you're not a ln seller, 's very tough. I’m not plag, but 's a really tough environment, beg a gay man or woman the dtry, you know? And I have to mentn k.d. lang and Melissa Etheridge bee they were there as well, at the same time.</p><div data-ad-exclu class="css-8c6v ehha8ut0">This ntent is imported om youTube. You may be able to fd the same ntent another format, or you may be able to fd more rmatn, at their web se.</div><div data-embed="youtube" data-no-id="65" class="embed align-center css-9angbx exa3d2e3"><div class="css-79elbk exa3d2e2"><div class="css-b0nlql exa3d2e1"></div><div class="css-8vvrvc exa3d2e0"></div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" aria-label="Watch on YouTube" href=" class="exa3d2e5 css-1exe7l8 e1c1bym14"><span>Watch on</span><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/" loadg="lazy" alt="Watch on YouTube" width="to" height="to" class="css-49nnnm exa3d2e4" /></a><div class="css-1uds6oo e1f7ylgd6"><button aria-label="Play Vio" class="css-1vn4202 e1f7ylgd0"><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/;sendary=%2523ffffff" loadg="lazy" alt="youtube in" width="68" height="68" class="css-a0gows e1f7ylgd3" /></button><img alt="This is an image" tle="Vio player poster image" loadg="lazy" width="2000" height="1000" dg="async" data-nimg="1" style="lor: transparent; width: 100%; height: to;" siz="100vw" srcSet=" 640w, 980w, 1120w, 1200w, 1920w" src="" class="e1f7ylgd5 css-g939jb exi4f7p0" /></div></div></div><p data-no-id="66" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>k.d.</p><p data-no-id="67" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>I know.</p><p data-no-id="68" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>Your fuckg duet wh her. I bought the 12-ch of that recently, and ’s jt so good. It's weird bee I thk what you did and Jimmy Somerville and other artists the ‘80s, is you ma a space for gay mic, as did k.d. lang for lbian reprentatn. But then I feel like when the dtry uld get away wh makg straight artists as gay and mp as you, they fot a lot of the actual gay artists.</p><p data-no-id="69" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">It really wasn't until Scissor Sisters me along that we were actually allowed to be there aga. Before then was the weird thg of the Fast Food Rockers and Soch and people like that jt beg mp, whout lettg an actual gay person do anythg popular media.</p><div data-ad-exclu class="css-8c6v ehha8ut0">This ntent is imported om youTube. You may be able to fd the same ntent another format, or you may be able to fd more rmatn, at their web se.</div><div data-embed="youtube" data-no-id="70" class="embed align-center css-9angbx exa3d2e3"><div class="css-79elbk exa3d2e2"><div class="css-b0nlql exa3d2e1"></div><div class="css-8vvrvc exa3d2e0"></div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" aria-label="Watch on YouTube" href=" class="exa3d2e5 css-1exe7l8 e1c1bym14"><span>Watch on</span><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/" loadg="lazy" alt="Watch on YouTube" width="to" height="to" class="css-49nnnm exa3d2e4" /></a><div class="css-1uds6oo e1f7ylgd6"><button aria-label="Play Vio" class="css-1vn4202 e1f7ylgd0"><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/;sendary=%2523ffffff" loadg="lazy" alt="youtube in" width="68" height="68" class="css-a0gows e1f7ylgd3" /></button><img alt="This is an image" tle="Vio player poster image" loadg="lazy" width="2000" height="1000" dg="async" data-nimg="1" style="lor: transparent; width: 100%; height: to;" siz="100vw" srcSet=" 640w, 980w, 1120w, 1200w, 1920w" src="" class="e1f7ylgd5 css-g939jb exi4f7p0" /></div></div></div><p data-no-id="71" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>There seemed to be a crossover perd, as you say. Durg Brpop, maybe mid-'90s or early '90s, where gay pri beme a rporate event, where you had to wear the wristband. And all of a sudn you had straight people on the vers of gay magaz, which was never vice versa. It was never gay people on the vers of straight magaz. And I'm not sayg that we should leave them out, jt seemed like we had to make this al. It was almost like we opened the door to straight people to be accepted, you know?</p><p data-no-id="72" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Dave: </strong>To this day, if Channg Tatum says, “hey, I have a gay , and I’m okay wh him,” then he’s on the ver of the gay magaze wh his shirt off. But workg queer artists still have to fight for that regnn. Do you thk the gay media supports s own muny enough?</p><p data-no-id="73" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>My personal opn is, sce social media, the actual wrten space media has bee so valuable. And we've bee so sensized and so body nsc, 's so dumbed down that even gay magaz, now 's all about sellg stuff. It never seemed to be like that before. It was more polil, bee we were fightg for our rights. Now jt seems to be about sellg t-shirts and Absolut vodka.</p><p data-no-id="74" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">Pl the attentn span is so short. It's like, who's next?</p><div data-ad-exclu="(m-width: 90rem)" data-embed="embed-product" data-no-id="75" size="medium" class="size-medium align-right embed css-1iigb5k etrqhn80"><div id="product-dcc0cc82-95d6-41a1-9637-57c07e7e0d56" class="css-17pp2fn etrqhn81"></div><div size="medium" class="size-medium align-right css-60ezry eyaokey4"><div class="top css-10ck1xh eyaokey2"><h2 class="css-6nsryy e8seki10">More Coverage of the Mic That Matters</h2></div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" href=" aria-label="Jo Esquire Select for More Coverage of the Mic That Matters" data-href=" data-product-url=" data-affiliate="false" data-affiliate-work data-vars-ga-ll-to-actn="Jo Esquire Select" data-vars-ga-media-role data-vars-ga-media-type="Sgle Product Embed" data-vars-ga-outbound-lk=" data-vars-ga-product-id="dcc0cc82-95d6-41a1-9637-57c07e7e0d56" data-vars-ga-product-price="$40.00" data-vars-ga-product-retailer-id="12fd7b51-a5c6-45f4-bf80-23984bb9adaf" data-vars-ga-product-sem3-tegory="Guis" data-vars-ga-lk-treatment="(not set) | (not set)" class="product-image-lk eyaokey0 en6kra60 css-15xslai e1c1bym14"><div class="css-zjhp4x e729n7u1"><div data-optimizely="product-image-ntaer" class="css-1pc0key e729n7u0"><img srcSet=" 640w, 980w" alt="More Coverage of the Mic That Matters" tle="More Coverage of the Mic That Matters" src="" width="768" height="768" dg="async" loadg="lazy" /></div></div></a><div size="medium" class="css-y6pcxk eyaokey1"><div class="css-10ck1xh eyaokey2"><h2 class="css-6nsryy e8seki10">More Coverage of the Mic That Matters</h2></div><div size="medium" class="size-medium css-g3y2dc e1a1omje0"><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" href=" aria-label="Jo Esquire Select for More Coverage of the Mic That Matters" data-href=" data-product-url=" data-affiliate="false" data-affiliate-work data-vars-ga-ll-to-actn="Jo Esquire Select" data-vars-ga-media-type="Sgle Product Embed" data-vars-ga-outbound-lk=" data-vars-ga-product-id="dcc0cc82-95d6-41a1-9637-57c07e7e0d56" data-vars-ga-product-price="$40.00" data-vars-ga-product-retailer-id="12fd7b51-a5c6-45f4-bf80-23984bb9adaf" data-vars-ga-product-sem3-tegory="Guis" data-vars-ga-gallery-id data-vars-ga-lk-treatment="(not set) | (not set)" role="button" data-ab-label="ProdClick" class="product-btn-lk en6kra60 css-1i4dhmq e1c1bym14">Jo Esquire Select</a></div></div></div></div><p data-no-id="76" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>I thk there's a big disnnect queer culture, but primarily wh whe gay men. They do want to support a straight female diva more than they have time to support queer artists, pecially before they've had a h. When I've been playg a Pri ftival—and, admtedly, I've not had a number one sgle, I've not had a number 100 sgle, really—but if I'm on the bill, I've heard people be like, "Oh, nobody knows who that is." They want Miley Cys or Ariana Gran or whatever. If I had had a h, would be a different story. But n you not have equal space your life for a straight diva <em>and </em>a queer artist? Bee if you don't support your muny, then none of are ever gog to get anywhere.</p><p data-no-id="77" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">There jt don't seem to be that eagerns to adopt your new favore queer artists as there is to adopt your new favore diva. It's a difficult thg bee I love listeng to female artists. I spend most of my life listeng to Mariah Carey. But I do try and look out for new queer artists and support people and spread them around.</p><p data-no-id="78" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">Somethg I do like about social media and the way thgs are the days is 's easier to nnect wh other queer artists. Like wh <em>Fun Cy</em>, there's 12 queer artists on . Everybody om Andy to a plete newer. And I wouldn't have been able to do that prev to this social media world. It is easier for people to seek out artists if they want to. I don't know if the sire to do that is still there bee there's such a saturatn of ntent and like 3000 new sgl every week on Spotify. Even though 's easier to put yourself out there, 's a ltle b harr to get people to actively seek you out. And as we know, people are lazy as fuck and n't be bothered.</p><p data-no-id="79" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>To be hont, as well, I don't know who's gay anymore. I don't. Bee there's so many people. But that's what we've been fightg for the whole time. You bee visible to be visible.</p><p data-no-id="80" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>What is tertg about beg my posn or my generatn wh queer inty mic is that you do get to shape the road. I'm tryg my bt to get my pchfork out and fe a ltle path. And what I'm hopg I enurage people to do wh this album is to talk to each other and to work wh other people and to emphasize a sense of muny, which I never had growg up. I uldn't name 10 gay artists growg up that I thought I uld be iends wh, or go on tour wh. And I always felt very isolated. I was this lone satelle, jt kd of orbg a world that I didn't really ever get allowed to.</p><p data-no-id="81" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">We have to emphasize muny and the fact that workg together mak everythg a ltle b stronger and a ltle b more visible. I'm hopg that wh this rerd, which is all llaboratns, emphasiz how much better you are together vers alone and might spire a few people to do the same kd of thg. And that don't have to be wh somebody famo. Like Andy and Jake Shears are credibly famo, and then you have Illtr Blacks or Caveboy who are on the rise. That was potedly done to unteract the fact that people only really re when people are famo.</p><p data-no-id="82" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>Rod, do you do by beg a fan of their mic or is jt random leads?<br /></p><p data-no-id="83" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>Some of them were iends before I got to know their mic. And then wh Caveboy, for example, my iend worked at Amazon Mic, and she said, "You should listen to this album." And I thought was fantastic, so I jt sent them an email, we end up talkg back and forth bee we had loads mon, and two weeks I had their vols on the rerd.</p><div data-ad-exclu class="css-8c6v ehha8ut0">This ntent is imported om youTube. You may be able to fd the same ntent another format, or you may be able to fd more rmatn, at their web se.</div><div data-embed="youtube" data-no-id="84" class="embed align-center css-9angbx exa3d2e3"><div class="css-79elbk exa3d2e2"><div class="css-b0nlql exa3d2e1"></div><div class="css-8vvrvc exa3d2e0"></div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" aria-label="Watch on YouTube" href=" class="exa3d2e5 css-1exe7l8 e1c1bym14"><span>Watch on</span><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/" loadg="lazy" alt="Watch on YouTube" width="to" height="to" class="css-49nnnm exa3d2e4" /></a><div class="css-1uds6oo e1f7ylgd6"><button aria-label="Play Vio" class="css-1vn4202 e1f7ylgd0"><img data-dynamic-svg src="/_assets/sign-tokens/e/static/ins/social/;sendary=%2523ffffff" loadg="lazy" alt="youtube in" width="68" height="68" class="css-a0gows e1f7ylgd3" /></button><img alt="This is an image" tle="Vio player poster image" loadg="lazy" width="2000" height="1000" dg="async" data-nimg="1" style="lor: transparent; width: 100%; height: to;" siz="100vw" srcSet=" 640w, 980w, 1120w, 1200w, 1920w" src="" class="e1f7ylgd5 css-g939jb exi4f7p0" /></div></div></div><p data-no-id="85" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">All of the people on the rerd are really warm, genue people who re about the world outsi of themselv. And so I would like to e this path that I'm makg or fg or breakg or whatever, to remd people that you n do that and have a lot more fun wh mic, pecially as a queer artist. Jt allow other people to e on board wh you.</p><p data-no-id="86" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>That's really sweet. You should get an alter ego, ll yourself the Vol Snatcher.</p><p data-no-id="87" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Dave: </strong>Fally, I am jt noticg, are we all wearg statement T-shirts?</p><p data-no-id="88" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>I've got my Madonna World Pri T-shirt, although 's a b smelly. It was on the floor and I thought was worth one more wear.</p><p data-no-id="89" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>Dave, you have your Bin/Harris shirt.</p><p data-no-id="90" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Dave: </strong>I do ed have my Bin/Harris shirt.</p><p data-no-id="91" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>You got your Bin? Yay!</p><p data-no-id="92" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Rod: </strong>I have my Joan Cack om <em>Addams Fay Valu</em> sweatshirt on. "I want you ad, and I want your money."</p><p data-no-id="93" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0">Andy, ngratulatns on <em>The Neon</em>, by the way. Top five is fuckg amazg this day and age the UK. It's so credible. I'm so proud.</p><p data-no-id="94" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><strong>Andy: </strong>Thank you very much. Thank you. It's all over an stant, so enjoy while you n. </p><p data-no-id="95" class="css-aeyldl et3p2gv0"><em>Bright Light Bright Light’s </em>Fun Cy<em> and Erasure’s </em>The Neon<em> are available now. Rod Thomas DJs the ocsnal "Romy & Michelle's Tea Dance," which you n watch on Twch; he broadsts as @brightlightx2. Andy Bell remas London. </em></p><style data-emotn="css 2ok9l4">{marg-top:1.875rem;borr-top:th solid #595959;}</style><div data-jam-id="thor-b" class="css-2ok9l4 e13rjwo40"><style data-emotn="css f0b5z8">{display:grid;grid-template-lumns:to 1;grid-lumn-gap:0.625rem;paddg-top:1.25rem;paddg-bottom:1.25rem;clear:both;}</style><div class="css-f0b5z8 e19xk9rq8"><style data-emotn="css irehmq">{borr-radi:50%;height:60px;width:60px;}@media(max-width: 48rem){{width:40px;height:40px;}}</style><span class="css-irehmq e19xk9rq1"><style data-emotn="css o0wq4v">{width:100%;height:100%;borr-radi:50%;vertil-align:middle;object-f:ver;}</style><img src="" alt="Headshot of Dave Holm" tle="Headshot of Dave Holm" width="100%" height="100%" dg="async" loadg="lazy" class="css-o0wq4v e19xk9rq3" /></span><div><style data-emotn="css 3sqxrq">{display:-webk-box;display:-webk-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;grid-gap:4px;-webk-align-ems:basele;-webk-box-align:basele;-ms-flex-align:basele;align-ems:basele;-webk-box-flex-wrap:wrap;-webk-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;}</style><div class="css-3sqxrq e19xk9rq7"><span class="css-0 e19xk9rq5"><style data-emotn="css 1yunoig">{lor:#161616;font-fay:Lsanne,Lsanne-fallback,Arial,sans-serif;letter-spacg:0.02rem;-webk-text-ratn:unrle;text-ratn:unrle;text-ratn-lor:her;text-ratn-thickns:0.0625rem;text-transform:upperse;text-unrle-offset:0.25rem;-webk-transn:all 0.3s ease--out;transn:all 0.3s ease--out;}@media(max-width: 48rem){{font-size:0.70003rem;le-height:1.4;}}@media(m-width: 40.625rem){{font-size:0.70003rem;le-height:1.3;}}{lor:#595959;text-ratn-lor:borr-lk-body-hover;}</style><style data-emotn="css 1kgdfad">{lor:#161616;font-fay:Lsanne,Lsanne-fallback,Arial,sans-serif;letter-spacg:0.02rem;text-transform:upperse;lor:#161616;font-fay:Lsanne,Lsanne-fallback,Arial,sans-serif;letter-spacg:0.02rem;-webk-text-ratn:unrle;text-ratn:unrle;text-ratn-lor:her;text-ratn-thickns:0.0625rem;text-transform:upperse;text-unrle-offset:0.25rem;-webk-transn:all 0.3s ease--out;transn:all 0.3s ease--out;}@media(max-width: 48rem){{font-size:0.70003rem;le-height:1.4;}}@media(m-width: 40.625rem){{font-size:0.70003rem;le-height:1.3;}}@media(max-width: 48rem){{font-size:0.70003rem;le-height:1.4;}}@media(m-width: 40.625rem){{font-size:0.70003rem;le-height:1.3;}}{lor:#595959;text-ratn-lor:borr-lk-body-hover;}</style><a href="/thor/9774/dave-holm/" class="e1c1bym13 css-1kgdfad e1c1bym14"><span>Dave Holm</span></a></span></div><style data-emotn="css pqlu">{lor:#161616;font-fay:Lsanne,Lsanne-fallback,Arial,sans-serif;letter-spacg:0.02rem;marg-top:0.625rem;text-transform:upperse;}@media(max-width: 48rem){{font-size:0.70003rem;le-height:1.4;}}@media(m-width: 40.625rem){{font-size:0.70003rem;le-height:1.3;}}</style><div class="css-pqlu e19xk9rq6">Edor-at-Large</div><style data-emotn="css 8u8x58">{display:-webk-box;font-fay:Charter,Geia,Tim,Serif;font-size:1rem;le-height:1.4;overflow:hidn;paddg-top:0.3125rem;-webk-box-orient:vertil;-webk-le-clamp:5;}@media(max-width: 48rem){{-webk-le-clamp:10;}}>*{display:le;} em{font-style:alic;font-fay:CharterItalic,Geia,Tim,Serif;} p{marg:0rem;} p a{-webk-text-ratn:unrle;text-ratn:unrle;text-ratn-thickns:0.0625rem;text-ratn-lor:her;text-unrle-offset:0.25rem;} p a:hover{text-ratn-lor:borr-lk-body-hover;}</style><div class="css-8u8x58 e19xk9rq4"><p>Dave Holm is Esquire's L.A.-based edor-at-large. His first book, "Party of One," is out now. </p></div></div></div></div><style data-emotn="css ciejky">{clear:both;marg-top:1.25rem;}</style><div id="journey-le" class="css-ciejky e1cslvxz0"></div><div class="css-79elbk eg8z2o90"><div class="css-79elbk e1tp40ll1"><div data-anchor-id="P0-0" class="css-0 e1tp40ll0"></div></div><style data-emotn="css hi6ssp">{display:block;grid-area:article_body;grid-lumn:article_body-start/article_body-end;grid-row:to;jtify-self:center;marg:1.25rem 0 0;}@media prt{{display:none;}}@media(max-width: 30rem){{width:100%;}}@media(max-width: 61.25rem){{m-height:28rem;}}@media(m-width: 30rem){{width:488px;}}@media(m-width: 40.625rem){{width:612px;}}@media(m-width: 64rem){{max-width:40.25rem;}}</style><div class="css-hi6ssp eg8z2o92"></div></div></div></div><div></div><style data-emotn="css 6b9rfj">{display:block;-webk-flex-basis:lc((100vw - lc(20.625rem * 2 - 1rem) - 1rem - 20.625rem) / 2);-ms-flex-preferred-size:lc((100vw - lc(20.625rem * 2 - 1rem) - 1rem - 20.625rem) / 2);flex-basis:lc((100vw - lc(20.625rem * 2 - 1rem) - 1rem - 20.625rem) / 2);-webk-box-flex:0;-webk-flex-grow:0;-ms-flex-posive:0;flex-grow:0;-webk-flex-shrk:0;-ms-flex-negative:0;flex-shrk:0;}@media(max-width: 61.25rem){{display:none;}}</style><div class="no-prt css-6b9rfj ewisyje1"><div><style data-emotn="css 1tuodqg">{width:330px;paddg-left:30px;}</style><div id="ad-article-rail-flt-wrapper" class="vertil-ad css-1tuodqg eqm02p30"><style data-emotn="css w0cuw4">{display:block;posn:-webk-sticky;posn:sticky;top:5rem;}@media(max-width: 61.25rem){{display:none;}}</style><div class="vertilAdSticky css-w0cuw4 eqm02p32"><style data-emotn="css 9fasmy">{m-height:523px;top:5rem;}@media(max-width: 61.25rem){{display:-webk-box;display:-webk-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webk-flex-directn:lumn;-ms-flex-directn:lumn;flex-directn:lumn;-webk-box-pack:jtify;-webk-jtify-ntent:space-between;jtify-ntent:space-between;}}@media(m-width: 48rem){{m-height:138px;}}@media(max-width: 61.25rem){{ntent:"";display:-webk-box;display:-webk-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;borr-bottom:th solid #E8E8E8;}}</style><div class="standard-article-vertil-ad css-9fasmy eqm02p31"><style data-emotn="css 14b96eg">{m-width:18.75rem;text-align:center;}</style><div id="gpt-ad-vertil-top" class="ad-ntaer css-14b96eg e1hka4w80"></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div data-teractive="WatchNext-1" class="css-0 e10xr3vp6"><style data-emotn="css 1pqv15d">{marg-bottom:1.875rem;marg-top:1.875rem;paddg:0 0.938rem;}@media(m-width: 40.625rem){{paddg:0 2.5rem;}}</style><div data-embed="watch-next" class="css-1pqv15d e10xr3vp5"><style data-emotn="css 604vx7">{text-align:center;marg:0 to;max-width:60rem;borr-top:0.125rem solid #15263D;}</style><div class="css-604vx7 e10xr3vp4"><style data-emotn="css 1sowyjy">{marg-bottom:1.25rem;}</style><div class="css-1sowyjy e10xr3vp3"><style data-emotn="css ju94x7">{marg:0rem;font-weight:normal;background-lor:#ffffff;lor:#000;borr:0.125rem solid #15263D;text-align:left;width:-webk-f-ntent;width:-moz-f-ntent;width:f-ntent;borr-radi:2rem;display:block;font-fay:Lsanne,Lsanne-fallback,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:0.70028rem;le-height:1.2;letter-spacg:0.04rem;marg-top:-1rem;paddg:0.5rem 0.9375rem 0.25rem;text-transform:upperse;}</style><h6 class="css-ju94x7 e10xr3vp2"><span aria-hidn="te" class="css-0 eagam8p0"></span><span class="css-0 e10xr3vp1">Watch Next</span><span aria-hidn="te" class="css-0 eagam8p1"></span></h6><style data-emotn="css un61">{-webk-align-ems:center;-webk-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-ems:center;display:-webk-box;display:-webk-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;font-fay:Lsanne,Lsanne-fallback,Arial,sans-serif;font-weight:normal;-webk-box-pack:center;-ms-flex-pack:center;-webk-jtify-ntent:center;jtify-ntent:center;marg:0rem;m-height:to;paddg-top:1rem;text-align:left;}@media(max-width: 48rem){{font-size:1.5rem;le-height:1.1;}}@media(m-width: 48rem){{font-size:1.875rem;le-height:1.3;}}@media(m-width: 64rem){{font-size:2.125rem;le-height:1.2;}}</style><h6 class="css-un61 e10xr3vp0"> </h6></div><style data-emotn="css b3y6x">{marg-bottom:0.9375rem;--aspect-rat:56.25%;} {posn:absolute;marg:0rem;}{ntent:"";display:block;height:0rem;width:100%;}@media(max-width: 30rem){{paddg-bottom:lc((45% / 1.16) + 20px + 1.66em);}}@media(m-width: 30rem) and (max-width: 48rem){{paddg-bottom:lc((45% / 1.43) + 20px + 1.66em);}}@media(m-width: 40.625rem) and (max-width: 64rem){{paddg-bottom:lc((33% / 1.40) + 20px + 1.66em);}}@media(m-width: 48rem){{paddg-bottom:lc((25% / 1.36) + 20px + 1.66em);}}@media(m-width: 64rem){{paddg-bottom:lc((25% / 1.46) + 20px + 1.66em);}}</style><div class="__rp-ntaer css-b3y6x e6l0f0"><style data-emotn="css 1yu8e3d">{marg-bottom:0.9375rem;width:100%;height:100%;} .__rp-ntaer{height:to;}</style><div data-embed="embed-vio" class="vio-player css-1yu8e3d e1ou1fny0"><div class="css-1uds6oo e1f7ylgd6"><style data-emotn="css w2pm9t">{background-lor:rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.4);borr:.1875rem solid whe;borr-radi:50%;lor:#fff;cursor:poter;height:3.75rem;left:50%;posn:absolute;-webk-transform:translate(-50%,-50%);-moz-transform:translate(-50%,-50%);-ms-transform:translate(-50%,-50%);transform:translate(-50%,-50%);-webk-transn:all 0.4s;transn:all 0.4s;width:3.75rem;z-x:1;}.e1f7ylgd6:hover {background-lor:rgba(33, 150, 245, 0.8);lor:#ffffff;}@media(m-width: 20rem){{top:26%;}}@media(m-width: 30rem){{top:29.5%;}}@media(m-width: 40.625rem){{top:32.5%;}}@media(m-width: 48rem){{top:34.5%;height:5.625rem;width:5.625rem;borr:.28125rem solid whe;}}@media(m-width: 64rem){{top:35%;}}@media(m-width: 75rem){{top:35.8%;}}</style><button aria-label="Play Vio" class="css-w2pm9t e1f7ylgd1"><style data-emotn="css 1lhf7lq">{fill:#ffffff;height:1.4rem;vertil-align:middle;width:1.45rem;}@media(m-width: 48rem){{width:2.3125rem;height:3rem;}}</style><svg xmlns=" width="24" height="24" viewBox="0 0 24 24" style="fill: var(--primary, #000);" role="img" tle="Play" class="css-1lhf7lq e1f7ylgd2"><tle>play in .