bars</tle><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_65hRV2Qwn" class="css-1fxvzwo" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_ILVvi2tqx" class="css-1wnday1" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC"><rect x="34" width="6" height="36" id="el_qw_T_tngXw"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_p_9Pm85Ac" class="css-fwki7z" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_WxG3R40yd" class="css-t3i5e6" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU"><rect x="22.67" width="6" height="36" id="el_lf9GrROk6j"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_kYNRGDfcw" class="css-t9te0w" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_3c3bzSjOJ" class="css-1r5375t" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw"><rect x="11.33" width="6" height="36" id="el_-iueO8klO0"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_y_fKcpSxn" class="css-qknaag" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_R6bNB6_Ys" class="css-1vd04" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC"><rect width="6" height="36" id="el_dS5TKNZZ5w"></rect></g></g></g></svg></div><div><div class="css-1t7yl1y">0:00<!-- -->/<!-- -->28:52</div><div class="css-og85jy">-<!-- -->28:52</div></div></div></div></hear><div class="css-uzyn7p"><div class="css-1vxyw"><p class="css-1nng8z9">transcript</p><h2 class="css-9wqu2x">A Clash Between Relig Fah and Gay Rights</h2><h4 class="css-qsd3hm">A recent Supreme Court lg put eedom of exprsn above eedom om discrimatn.</h4><time dateTime="2023-07-03T10:00:02.535Z" class="css-1e605">2023-07-03T06:00:02-04:00</time></div><dl class="css-p98d0w"><dt class="css-xx7kwh"></dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">This transcript was created g speech regnn software. While has been reviewed by human transcribers, may nta errors. Please review the episo d before quotg om this transcript and email wh any qutns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">From The New York Tim, I’m Sabra Tavernise, and this is The Daily.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[THEME MUSIC]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">On Friday, the Supreme Court livered another major cisn on the last day of s term, lg favor of a web signer who argued that havg to create webs for same-sex marriag vlated her right to ee speech. Today, my lleague Adam Liptak, on how the lg puts eedom of exprsn above eedom om discrimatn, and what that might mean for all kds of different groups of Amerins.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s Monday, July 3.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Adam, you’re back.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hello, Sabra.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So this time, you’re here for another major se. One, potentially, wh far reachg nsequenc for same-sex upl. Tell me about the lg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So this is the end of June, when we get the big s. And this is one we’ve been wag for many months. The qutn is whether a webse signer wh relig nvictns n refe to provi servic to same-sex upl for same-sex marriag. And the urt, by the ual 6 to 3 spl, wh the six Republin appote the majory, says, y, she n. She has a First Amendment ee speech right not to be pelled by the ernment to say thgs she don’t believe.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">She says that same sex-marriag are false and that, havg to ply wh a Colorado anti-discrimatn law that forbids discrimatn on many grounds, cludg sexual orientatn, the ernment is makg her vlate her ee speech rights by pellg her to say somethg she don’t believe.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">In other words, she has the right not to make a webse for same-sex upl who are gettg married bee they’re same-sex upl, somethg she disagre wh.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. And there is an tablished First Amendment doctre lled “pelled speech” that says you n’t force schoolchildren to say the Pledge of Allegiance, you n’t require people to, New Hampshire, have a license plate that says “Live ee or die.” And whether that ncept fs neatly here is open to qutn. But the Supreme Court adopts that ncept, or the majory do, and says that this anti-discrimatn law, as applied to a web signer engaged exprsive nduct, vlat the First Amendment.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">This is soundg vaguely faiar. I’m thkg about that se a while back about a ke baker who didn’t want to bake a ke for a same-sex weddg, also Colorado.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It was about five away om where this web signer works.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Wow.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You’re right to remember that se. It volved a baker named Jack Phillips, who ma ctom weddg k. He said they were artistic works, and he refed service to a same-sex uple, was punished for . That se went all the way to the Supreme Court, but we didn’t get a five cisn that se.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And remd me why, Adam, what happened?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk the real reason was that the ntrollg vote was that of Jtice Anthony Kennedy, sce retired. Jtice Kennedy was, on the one hand, the urt’s greatt proponent of gay rights, the thor of all four major nstutnal pro-gay rights cisns. But also very sensive to First Amendment ee speech ncerns.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I jt don’t thk he uld make up his md. So he ultimately found an off-ramp, lg favor of the baker on que narrow technil idsyncratic grounds. None of that is important to follow. The only larger pot is that there was no cisn. And we’ve been wag now for years for the Supreme Court to return to this topic.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK. So now this se along, wh this web signer. Tell me about her, the person at the heart of the se.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Her name is Lorie Smh. I paid her a vis some months ago, as the se was soon to be argued.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (adam liptak)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So, Lorie, tell me about you, tell me about your bs. What do you do here?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (lorie smh)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sure. So you’re my stud, this is 303 Creative, here Ltleton, Colorado.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And she told me her story.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (lorie smh)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I’m om a fay of entreprenrs. I always wanted to own my own bs and I’ve always been creative.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">She starts her own bs, which mak ads, and logos, and webs.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (lorie smh)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So, ctom logos, ctom artwork, ctom signs.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">For a variety of bs.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (lorie smh)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Nothg I create — No two thgs are the same. So everythg’s ctom exprsn and artwork nature.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And she se herself as an artist, and thks that every piece of work she do for this bs is unique.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (lorie smh)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So my clients are g to me bee they’re not lookg for a boilerplate template.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And she also says she’s eager to go to a new bs. She wants to provi webs for weddgs.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (lorie smh)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">When I started creatg, I ma a cisn that the thgs that I create and signed for, they would be honorg and glorifyg to God. And bee of that, that means that I n’t create all msag.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But she says her Christian fah would not allow her to create webs for same-sex weddgs.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (lorie smh)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I want to create weddgs nsistent wh my fah, which teach me that marriage is between one man and one woman.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">She says she’ll serve gay upl all kds of settgs.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (lorie smh)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I love everyone, I serve everyone, I have clients who intify as LGBT, I jt n’t promote every msage.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Jt not nnectn wh same-sex marriag.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (lorie smh)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But the state says that I n’t do that.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And she’s aaid that if she go to this bs, but only serv oppose sex upl, she’ll be punished by the state of Colorado unr s anti-discrimatn laws.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (lorie smh)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">For me, I utly looked around the nature of the environment Colorado and I saw what was happeng wh people like Jack Phillips, who has a siar fah to me, and I wonred if the state uld do the same to me.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And she thks that bee she’s actually faiar wh the ke baker se, she knows Jack Phillips, the baker the se, and she knew she might n the risk of gettg trouble wh Colorado, as he did, if she were to turn down bs based on same-sex marriag.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (adam liptak)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So how do you get volved this lawsu?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (lorie smh)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, started about six years ago.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so she gets together wh a big Christian ligatg firm lled Alliance Defendg Freedom, which had also reprented Jack Phillips, and they file su. And they do so before she’s actually opened her doors to this kd of bs. They say that she has reason to be aaid that she’ll face punishment if she starts to this bs but won’t serve same-sex upl for same-sex weddgs.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (lorie smh)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so rather than wa to be punished, I cid to take a stand to protect my First Amendment rights. And I shouldn’t have to be punished before I challenge an unjt law.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So there’s really not a real-life dispute here, right? She’s jt tryg to, kd of, head off the potential for a dispute that she thks she might have if she expands her bs.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. In the se wh the ke baker, there was tailed rerd evince the urt fil on who had done what, when, and really add some texture and ntext to the se. In this se, Smh said she had received, but never rpond to, a requt om what looked like a same-sex uple. Now, acrdg to recent reports, the requt was bog, submted unr the name of a straight man. But any event, the se is very different om that of the baker.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. He actually had nied bakg a ke to an actual uple, right? So, as you say, they were facts the se. Here, she hasn’t nied service to anyone, ’s kd of somethg that might happen the future.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. So we don’t know what the requt would look like, we don’t know what any rultg webse would look like. It’s an odd thg to have a Supreme Court cisn, based on so ltle evince.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But obvly, nohels, the se mak all the way up to the Supreme Court.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. And you have to thk that Alliance Defendg Freedom had wanted to fd another platiff another se to get back to the Supreme Court, particularly as s posn had changed, as had bee more nservative. And when the se arriv at the Supreme Court, seems like a sequel to the se about the baker, and is. But the baker’s se had two piec to . It had a relig ponent, whether the Colorado anti-discrimatn law vlated his right to ee exercise of relign. And also whether vlated his right to ee speech, to ee exprsn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">This time around, the urt only grants the ee speech qutn. So we’re lookg at a se which has heavy overton of a classic clash between relign and gay rights. But tak the form of a qutn about ee speech.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK, so stead of this beg a fight about relign and ee speech vers discrimatn, ’s jt ee speech vers discrimatn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. The urt apparently thought the bt way to handle this qutn is a streamled fashn and really bear down on whether the First Amendment’s ee exprsn protectn appli, even the face of an anti-discrimatn law.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be right back.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK. So how did we get to this lg om the Supreme Court last week?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, after the urt agre to hear the se, they hear argument December.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (krist waggoner)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mr. Chief Jtice, and may please the urt. Lorie Smh blends art wh technology —</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And starts by Lorie Smh’s lawyer, Krist Waggoner, gettg up and makg, basilly, the same pots that Smh ma to me.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (krist waggoner)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Miss Smh believ oppose-sex marriage honors scripture, and same-sex marriage ntradicts .</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That she has relig nvictns, she shouldn’t be forced to vlate them by sayg thgs she don’t believe. That the First Amendment protects her this area.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (krist waggoner)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I wele this urt’s qutns.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And what did the jtic make of that argument?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, the jtic were really tryg to sort out what kds of bs are we talkg about that n voke the First Amendment at all.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">How do you characterize webse signers? Are they more like the rtrants, and the jewelers, and the tailors? Or are they more like the publishg ho and the other ee speech analogs that —</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Many people would agree that a pater, a songwrer, the ghostwrer of a bgraphy, engag First Amendment protected activy, and therefore might have a claim.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But not, for example, a shoe store, or Walmart, or a tire pany.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. If you’re jt any regular bs facg the public, you don’t have those rights, if what you’re sellg isn’t your own exprsn. So the two ends of the spectm are pretty well fed.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thought that there really isn’t that clear a distctn a suatn like this.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That didn’t answer the qutn about whether this web signer, this ntext, was engagg exprsn.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Can I give you a hypothetil? It’s not really a hypothetil —</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Jtice Elena Kagan, for stance, says, what if what you’re offerg is basilly a template?</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (elena kagan)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You have lots of graphics, you have typefac. And basilly clients are g and they’re sayg, we jt want a standard webse that tells people where to stay and how to travel there. And the qutn is, n a webse signer say, sorry, that’s not my kd of marriage?</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Do that amount to Lorie Smh’s exprsn? How much creativy do she need to brg to the project?</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (elena kagan)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I thk that, if I unrstand you, you’re sayg, y, she n refe bee there’s iology jt the fact that ’s Mike and Harry, and there’s a picture of the two guys together.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (krist waggoner)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That is speech, you are announcg a weddg. And if you believe —</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">There were qutns about how much will people unrstand the rultg speech to be hers, as opposed to the uple’s.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (elena kagan)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So, what’s the msage if says, save the date, Lily and Lillian, Lily and Mary? What’s the msage there?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (krist waggoner)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s an vatn to celebrate a marriage.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (elena kagan)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But why is your vatn?</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I mean, if you look at a weddg webse, are you gog to go, well, that’s tertg what Lorie Smh thks about same-sex marriage? Or are you gog to thk, here’s somethg that, perhaps nsultatn wh the artist, but neverthels was created by and is the speech of the uple. Another major qutn is, how broadly would a lg favor of Lorie Smh sweep?</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (elena kagan)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Can I ask you a hypothetil that jt sort of helps me to flh that out?</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Jtice Kentanji Brown Jackson, for stance, asked an tertg hypothetil qutn.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (kentanji brown jackson)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Can you give me your thoughts on a photography bs a shoppg mall, durg this holiday season, that offers a product lled “Scen wh Santa?” And this bs wants to exprs s own view of nostalgia about —</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Let’s assume a shoppg mall wants to have a kd of 1950s, sepia-toned Christmas settg which they say Black children shouldn’t participate bee that’s not their visn of what the 1950s Ameri was all about. Would that be acceptable? That’s a kd of speech, I gus, settg up a Christmas scene a shoppg mall. And are you allowed to discrimate that way?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So she seems to be suggtg that a lg favor of Smh uld actually go way beyond a web signers relig objectns, that uld be a slippery slope.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, that’s right.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (krist waggoner)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But even if were, this urt has protected vile, awful, reprehensible, vlent speech the past. And is never fortable —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (kentanji brown jackson)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, I’m jt askg you, why is the objectn —</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">An important pot to regnize is that, let’s rell, we’re not talkg about relig belief alone. We’re talkg about any belief. And that belief n be que ugly. It n be an anti-Mlim belief, n be the ia that women shouldn’t participate the work force. It uld protect all kds of discrimatn, so long as we’re talkg about exprsive speech livered on a ctom basis.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Got .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Meanwhile, some of the nservative jtic suggted there might be a slippery slope the other directn as well.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The problem, and what a lot of the hypothetils are gettg at, is, however we ci this se, obvly, appli to others.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And urt, the jtic were grapplg wh, well, where would the le be if this Colorado law was left place? Couldn’t that leave the door open to at least some pani havg to take on all kds of work that they eply disagree wh?</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Do every prs release wrer, eelance wrer have to wre a prs release for the Church of Scientology, say, even though the beliefs of that stutn may be imil to the person?</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And the more the jtic talk, the more be apparent that they’re fdg the qutns to be pretty hard.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So the answer is, y, Colorado would pel that person.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">No. The answer is no.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK, why?</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So there are, as lawyers like to say, a lot of le-drawg qutns here. At the ncln of the argument, though, I thk I thought, and most observers thought, that the six jtice nservative majory would fd a way to le for Lorie Smh, was basilly sympathetic to her posn. And that may have been flicted by the particular ntext of the se that she was a Christian woman opposed to same-sex marriage.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And this is a urt that’s very receptive to claims based on relign, particularly om Christians, and maybe is not as sympathetic, s volvg gay rights, as might be other s volvg other forms of discrimatn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And of urse, Adam, you were right durg the oral arguments to assume what you did assume. That is exactly what they led. So tell me about the specifics of this cisn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Jtice Neil Gorsuch wr for the six jtice majory. And he basilly says ’s te there are some hard qutns here. There are some thorny qutns. But the qutn this particular se, he says, is an easy one, that Lorie Smh has a First Amendment right not to be pelled by the ernment to make webs for same-sex weddgs, even the face of a Colorado law that prohibs discrimatn based on sexual orientatn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So basilly, they duck the thorny issu and say she’s right. They kd of take her argument at face value.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. And I gus I’d say they take her facts at face value. Bee they said that she was basilly an artist, that she was engaged exprsn, she had earntly held views about same-sex marriage, and that she shouldn’t be forced to say somethg she didn’t believe.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And Gorsuch’s opn, is there any lim to what a so-lled exprsive, creative bs n do when to nyg servic? If she, Lorie Smh, wanted to refe servic based on a different kd of belief, say, a belief that terracial marriage is wrong. Would nyg a weddg webse be protected that se, acrdg to his opn?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So the cisn is very closely tied to the facts of the particular se. But the logic of the cisn certaly extends to other kds of discrimatn. I was particularly cur about what Jtice Gorsuch would have to say about discrimatn based on race. And I was surprised enough that I wasn’t fdg that discsn that I did a word search the document to make sure I wasn’t missg somethg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And, although the dissent discs racial discrimatn, there’s nothg about that the majory opn. So the opn leav open two kds of qutns. One of them, jt how far some bs n go discrimatg agast people var settgs. But also don’t answer the thrhold qutn of what bs qualify as exprsive bs the first place. So Jtice Gorsuch seems to studly avoid drawg l and distctns, and is cidg the particular se whout announcg general legal prcipl. And the Supreme Court ually is the bs of announcg general legal prcipl.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So as this cisn mak s way out to the world, the majory has not fed exactly what an exprsive bs is. It feels like that’s gog to be the center of the bate gog forward. I mean, this is credibly squishy. And seems like this opn really do everythg n not to wa to that squishs.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s right. And you n portray that two ways. One, that ’s narrowly foced. But the other, not addrsg those other scenars, may open the door to all kds of ligatn and mischief. And Jtice Sonia Sotomayor’s dissent sure mak the pot that ’s hard to distguish, based on the logic of the cisn, other kds of discrimatn.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">For stance, and she has a lot of exampl, but one she offers is, what if a bs offers school photos? Can ny those servic to multiracial children bee the owner do not want to create any speech ditg that terracial upl are acceptable? I don’t thk Jtice Gorsuch’s majory has an answer for that, or at least not one that he has offered.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So she’s talkg about the slippery slope and the negative possible effects om that.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. She’s sayg that after the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s, we have gotten to a place the Uned Stat where everyone has accepted that bs open to the public n’t discrimate. And here, all of a sudn, we’re movg the oppose directn on the basis of a First Amendment doctre that has not prevly been ed to allow discrimatn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">She’s basilly sayg, this is discrimatn, pure and simple.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. And I’m not sure Lorie Smh would say that she’s discrimatg, she might not adopt that language. But makg distctns based on her fah and clg to serve people, is a form of discrimatn. But maybe the First Amendment allows .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So, Adam, at the end of the day, this really lims the power of anti-discrimatn laws. Right? How will they ern and be the law of the land this new environment that we’re after this lg?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I agree wh you, Sabra, that ’s a signifint step, but let’s also regnize the lims. It appli to a relatively narrow class of bs. It appli to those bs when they’re dog ctomized exprsn. And only to play if the bs, probably ntrary to their enomic terts, wants to discrimate agast groups of people. And ’s te that most anti-discrimatn laws will be enforceable tomorrow, jt as they were yterday.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But at the same time, the msage of the cisn seems powerfully symbolic. In a clash between a woman’s relig fah and gay rights, relign out ahead. Or a cynic might say that this is a cisn the aftermath of the urt’s lg, tablishg a nstutnal right to same-sex marriage which has remaed unpopular some quarters, and is a signal the culture wars, that same-sex marriag don’t get que the same protectns as other marriag.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So even though the lg was based on ee speech, you’re sayg ’s important symbolilly, that this was specifilly about a relig belief same-sex marriage?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Y. So there are two ways to look at the cisn. One is that ’s a qutn about ee speech and appli all kds of settgs. But I don’t know that gets to the Supreme Court if didn’t volve the ntent issue of same-sex marriage and the feelg among some relig people that remas a ntted and offensive ncept.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Adam, thank you.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">adam liptak</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thank you, Sabra. [MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be right back.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Here’s what else you should know today.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I am so disappoted wh this cisn, and actually almost brgs me to tears.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">On Friday, a 6 to 3 cisn, the Supreme Court stck down Print Bin’s plan to ncel a portn of stunt loan bt for dividual borrowers.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We were lookg forward to the stunt loan fivens. We were actually expectg . That’s gog to csh fancially.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">As feral stunt loan bt has risen to more than $1.6 trilln natnwi, the plan specifilly targeted lower earners, offerg up to $20,000 of bt ncellatn for those makg ls than $125,000 a year.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We n’t afford hog and groceri. Who do they thk are gog to pay the back? Bee ’s not me.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The urt said the plan, which had not yet gone to effect, overstepped the thory of the Department of Edutn and required approval of Congrs.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (joe bin)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I know there are lns of Amerins, lns of Amerins this untry who feel disappoted and disuraged, or even a ltle b angry about the urt’s cisn today on stunt bt. And I mt adm, I do too.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Speakg at the Whe Hoe on Friday, Print Bin ma his displeasure wh the urt’s cisn clear.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (joe bin)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I believe the urt’s cisn to strike down my stunt bt relief program was a mistake, was wrong. I’m not gog to stop fightg to liver borrowers what they need, particularly those at the bottom end of the enomic sle.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">He announced he would ntue the fight for bt relief, and was directg the Secretary of Edutn to fd new ways to ease the enomic burn for borrowers.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (joe bin)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today’s cisn has closed one path, now we’re gog to pursue another.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sabra tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today’s episo was produced by Rob Szypko, Rachel Quter, Alex Stern, and Shannon L, wh help om Michael Simon Johnson. It was eded by Marc Ge and Paige Cowett, wh help om Dev Taylor, ntas origal mic by Elisheba Ittoob and Marn Lozano, and was engeered by Chris Wood. Our theme mic is by Jim Bnberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonrly.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s for The Daily. I’m Sabra Tavernise. See you on Wednday, after the holiday.</p></dd></dl></div></div></div></div><div style="posn:absolute;width:0;height:0;visibily:hidn;display:none"></div><hear class="css-1vwfk9f" data-breakpot=""><div style="width:100%" data-ttid="flt-layout"><div style="background-image:url()" class="css-18qqsen e1llfg0"><div class="css-1hmsypo e1llfg2"><div class="css-131hid3 e1llfg3"><div class="css-1uhi299 e1llfg1"></div><div class="css-1tloyb6"><div class="css-1kltdsh ehra6vc0"><a href=" class="css-2ne0py"><span class="css-1f76qa2"><img alt="The Daily logo" src="><span>The Daily</span></span></a><span class="css-1lhttlg ehra6vc1"><span class="css-sj5ozi ehra6vc2">Subscribe:</span><ul class="css-hx5n"><li><a href=" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Apple Podsts</a></li><li><a href=" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Google Podsts</a></li></ul></span></div></div><div class="css-1r0dpua e1llfg4"><div class="css-1gu519p edye5kn0"><div><h1 class="css-1xbyom1 edye5kn2">A Clash Between Relig Fah and Gay Rights</h1><h2 class="css-rlih edye5kn3">A recent Supreme Court lg put eedom of exprsn above eedom om discrimatn.</h2></div><span class="css-lsnb14 edye5kn4"></span><button type="button" class="css-w62hzm" aria-haspopup="te" aria-label="Show Aud Transcript"><div class="css-1vd84sn"><svg xmlns=" width="24" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 20" fill="#F8F8F8"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M0 0H24V20H0V0ZM3 7H21V9H3V7ZM21 11H3V13H21V11ZM3 15H21V17H3V15ZM11 3H3V5H11V3Z" fill="#F8F8F8"></path></svg><span class="css-16bt4xd">Transcript</span></div></button></div><div class="css-1g7y0i5 e1drnplw0"><button tabx="100" class="css-1rtlxy" type="button" aria-label="close"><svg width="60" height="60" viewBox="0 0 60 60" fill="none"><circle cx="30" cy="30" r="30" fill="whe" fill-opacy="0.9"></circle><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M38.4844 20.1006L39.8986 21.5148L21.5138 39.8996L20.0996 38.4854L38.4844 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M21.5156 20.1006L20.1014 21.5148L38.4862 39.8996L39.9004 38.4854L21.5156 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path></svg></button><div class="css-rdbib0 e1drnplw1"></div><div class="css-18ow4sz e1drnplw2"><div aria-labelledby="modal-tle" role="regn"><hear class="css-1bzlfz"><div class="css-mln36k" id="modal-tle">transcript</div><button type="button" class="css-1igvuto"><div class="css-f40pzg"></div><span>Back to The Daily</span></button><div class="css-f6lhej" data-ttid="transcript-playback-ntrols"><div class="css-1ialerq"><button tabx="99" type="button" class="css-1t9gw" aria-label="play"><svg xmlns=" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M8 13.7683V6L14.5 9.88415L8 13.7683Z" fill="var(--lor-ntent-sendary,#363636)"></path><circle cx="10" cy="10" r="9.25" stroke="var(--lor-stroke-primary,#121212)" stroke-width="1.5"></circle></svg></button><div class="css-1701swk"><svg xmlns=" viewBox="0 0 40 36" id="el_0kpS9qL_S"><tle>bars
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