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23.9508V2.95081H14V3.93211H6V22.1845L12.5 18.5536L19 22.1845V8.83866H20V23.9508Z"></path><path class="in-bookmark-fill" d="M23 3H20V0H19V3H16V4H19V7H20V4H23V3Z"></path></svg></span><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ ActnBarButtonText-bYXYuh iUEiRd bkefvo gkccfO">Save this story</span></button></div></div></div><div class="LightboxWrapper-dxsWBV hhylRt"><div class="ArticlePageChunksContent-etcMtP bwyLBj"><div data-ttid="ArticlePageChunks" class="ArticlePageChunks-fLyCVG Uozmo"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="has-dropp has-dropp__lead-standard-headg">Sce the late neteen-seventi, the Atralian mician Nick Cave has given voice to our gnarlit impuls and fears. As a foundg member of the phono post-punk band the Birthday Party, he sang of sexual perversns and vlent reveri a dank barone, a misf visnary the spir of <a href=">Tom Was</a>, <a href=">Alan Vega</a>, and <a href=">Iggy Pop</a>. (In 1981, “<a href=">Release the Bats</a>,” one of the band’s first sgl—“Release the bats! Release the bats! Pump them up and explo the thgs!”—was clared Song of the Year by the BBC broadster John Peel.) In 1983, Cave formed Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds; over time, his lyrics grew sharper and more strikg. In 1997, he released “The Boatman’s Call,” a bleak and tenr piano rerd about <a href=">romantic vastatn</a>. The album shows his aptu for articulatg heavy and plex human experienc wh elegance and gall. If you have ever felt a strange, throbbg ache somewhere low your gut—born of heartbreak, yearng, or some praved sire—Cave probably has a song for that.</p><p class="paywall">In 2015, when Cave was fifty-seven, his fifteen-year-old son, Arthur, died after accintally fallg om a cliff near the fay’s home, Brighton, England. In the aftermath, Cave turned his foc to another taboo experience: grief. “Skeleton Tree” (2016), the first rerd he released followg Arthur’s ath, opens wh <a href=">a claratn</a>: “You fell om the sky, crash-land a field near the River Adur,” he chants. “Wh my voice, I am llg you.” The album was followed, 2019, by “Ghosteen,” a sgular and profound medatn on loss and the afterlife. I have never heard anythg like . On “<a href=">Bright Hors</a>,” Cave ocsnally breaks to a pure, spectral falsetto that sounds only partially human. “Everyone has a heart, and ’s llg for somethg,” he sgs an early verse.</p><p class="paywall">Through the rerds and his long-nng newsletter, “<a href=">The Red Hand Fil</a>,” Cave has bee an unexpected Virgil for anyone mired grief and stg about for a warm but unsentimental gui. His advice is passnate and perceptive. (To a man who lost his , and whose nt now appears entirely subsumed by her grief, he <a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">unsels</a> only patience. “Aunt Marnie is spendg time wh the retreatg image of her parted son and perhaps there is no room for you at this moment. Perhaps now is not the time she needs you, but you n be sure, time, she will,” he wr.) In 2018, Cave announced a seri of tour dat which he would be nversatn wh his dience, a format he <a href=">scribed</a> as beg about “timacy and nnectedns.” Last year, he published “<a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fah, Hope and Carnage</a>,” an extend terview wh the journalist Seán O’Hagan; a paperback versn will be released by Pidor September. Cave has been open about his sufferg, even as chang shape. In 2022, seven years after Arthur’s ath, Cave’s olst son, Jethro, died Melbourne at age thirty-one. (Cave is currently married to the Brish mol and signer Sie Cave; Jethro was the child of an earlier relatnship, wh Be Lazenby.) “I’m not talkg about Jethro, bee his mother has exprsly asked me not to,” Cave told me recently. “She’s a grievg mother and very protective over him.”</p><p class="paywall">When I <a href=">lost my hband</a> sudnly, this past Augt, Cave’s late-reer albums were some of the only mic I uld tolerate. Though is a btally mon experience, grief is still challengg to evoke or expla. In those early weeks, I often listened to “Ghosteen” after puttg my baby dghter to bed, fdg fort s wildns and mystery. Our nversatn, which took place first over the phone and later over e-mail, has been nnsed and eded.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Nick, thanks for takg the time to talk wh me.</strong></p><p class="paywall">I’m a ltle agated, to be hont. I fot about the terview! I’ve been songwrg mo, wrg lyrics. Exce me if I’m a ltle sttered. But let’s give a go. Before we start, Amanda, I’m tly sorry to hear about your hband.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-1 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>Thank you. I wanted to tell you that your work has been a guidg light for me through my grief, an experience that I have found mostly bewilrg. I often feel as though I’m not the bt place for a nversatn, eher. Yet here we are!</strong></p><p class="paywall">And yet here we are.</p><div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--article-mid-ntent" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--article-mid-ntent nsumer-marketg-un__slot---ntent"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><p class="paywall"><strong>I was rereadg “Fah, Hope and Carnage” while preparg to speak wh you today, and on the very first page you say, “Interviews, general, suck. Really. They eat you up. I hate them.” That ma me lgh. Often I hate them, too.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Y, they n take so much away. Especially mic terviews. You make a rerd and love until you start talkg about terviews. You suck the life out of , strip of any mystery that may have had. I jt don’t like the procs. It’s ironic bee, for “Fah, Hope and Carnage,” I end up speakg to Seán O’Hagan for fifty hours, or somethg like that. But was well unrstood that I didn’t want to talk about mic particular, and that I didn’t want to talk about my life a nventnal way. We were able to talk about other thgs. Sce dog this, I have e to see the terview as almost an art form self. I found out, to my bewilrment and amazement, that terviews, or nversatns, uld actually be a way of munitg! [<em>Lghs</em>.] I’d never really nsired an terview to be that before.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I found that the back-and-forth between you and Seán left space for doubt, wonrg, doublg back. Tradnal terviews, tradnal memoirs, they n feel so closed and clarative. Good nversatn should have air .</strong></p><p class="paywall">That’s a lovely way to put . I thk the nversatn Seán and I had was much more about searchg. Both of were tryg to work out where we stood the world at that particular time, and what we thought about thgs. Throughout the terviews, my ias kept shiftg all the time.</p><div class="Contaer-bkChBi byNLHx"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>I once terviewed the wrer and environmentalist <a href=">Wenll Berry</a>, who was adamant about the importance of nversatn to humany’s survival. He said, “It’s eher that or kill each other.”</strong></p><p class="paywall">That’s exactly right. It seems to be sential, even if jt as a rrective for the bad, unexprsed ias we hold our heads. A lot of thgs I talked to Seán about I had never exprsed before. They were thoughts and ias that lived my head. Grief. Relign. When we rehearse our ias our mds, ’s always at a kd of fever pch, and the ias n feel extraordarily articulate. But, once you actually hear yourself speak them, the ias n appear nsirably ls robt, at least for me. Seán would ask me a qutn, and I’d say, “No, no, no.” Then, a week later, he would circle around and ask the same qutn, and I’d say, “Y. Y, y.” It was the procs of talkg about the matters that I me to a more nsired, nuanced posn on thgs. That’s the bety of the book, I thk—that the nversatn unfolds real time, and we see before our ey the power of nversatn to velop and epen ias.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-2 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>There’s a moment early on the book, jt a page or two , where you say, wh some purpose, that the ath of your son f you. That sort of seismic, sudn, life-alterg loss—for me, feels like not only the only thg that has ever happened to me but also the only thg that has ever <em>happened</em>. I felt relief when you jt clared like that.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Y, I jt didn’t regnize myself anymore. Did you feel the same way? I would look the mirror and not really know who was starg back. I jt seemed like a different kd of beg. Grief is extraordary s pacy to pletely alter on an almost atomic level. Sudnly, we hab a different body. Our relatnship wh everythg seems to change. It’s as if we’re simply a different person. I meant that que lerally. I changed om one person to another person.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>People often ment on your willgns to engage directly wh grief, first via the <a href=">Conversatns</a> tour, and then wh your wrg of “The Red Hand Fil”—you are unmonly genero this regard. Grief n feel burnsome for everyone, and yet I have also found that <em>not</em> engagg wh n be so lonome.</strong></p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><asi class="PersistentAsiWrapper-VGrR daRVRt persistent-asi" style="posn:absolute;top:to;height:to" data-ttid="PersistentAsiWrapper"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="ttp8zp"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></asi></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="cl2559"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">Y, I have found that, but, on the other hand, I didn’t want to talk about endlsly wh iends. I found a basic acknowledgment of the suatn went a long way. In the book, I talk about the first time I went out public after my son died and a woman om Infy Foods, a vegetarian takeaway I ed to go to, whom I knew. She didn’t mentn anythg when she took my orr, didn’t say anythg, which I felt was strange, you know? But when she gave me back my change she squeezed my hand. It was a silent but eply articulate act, beyond words, and more fortg than anythg I had read or that anyone had said. It stck me that don’t require much for people to al wh the grief of others. It jt requir a small, scere acknowledgment, and then we n move on a ltle b rather than be stuck alone an unclared falsens. But I do also unrstand that n be very difficult for people to have to al wh somebody else’s grief, pecially if they are seeg them all the time.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I thk people who are the thro of h grief very quickly bee hyperaware of the immovabily of that feelg. The way jt kd of ss there.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Exactly. I read a betiful le by the poet Ellen Bass, a poem about grief lled “The Thg Is.” She says, “Grief weights you down like your own flh / only more of , an oby of grief.” That was que a startlg but eply faiar image. Grief squeez the mon oxygen out of the room so that no one has air to breathe.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>You have found a way to apply eful, elegant language to the experience of loss—to articulate wh grace and accuracy. In the book, you scribe the early days of your grief as “a place of acute disorr—a chaos that was also a kd of pacatn.” But you also pot out that ’s ordary: “We are all, at some pot our liv, oblerated by loss.” How did you build a vobulary to scribe the thgs?</strong></p><p class="paywall">For me, beme sential to work out a way of dog that. I need a way to articulate grief. I did the -nversatn events, which, to me, were a not always succsful attempt at exprsg the thgs. I don’t know really what I was tryg to do when I did those; I’d gone a b mad. They were strange thgs to do. So was really wh “The Red Hand Fil” that I learned how to wre about —even though I uldn’t really talk about , at least I uld velop a language around grief. It took the nversatns wh Seán—and they were sometim que paful—to work out, over time, a way of aquately scribg the mechanics of grief. Seán allowed me the time, the room. We are often hypernsc of the way our grief mak others feel. We bee like antimatter suckg everythg to the vacuum of our anguish, the air, the life. I don’t know. I jt found difficult to talk normally to people about . I had to work out a way where I uld talk about whout drivg myself and everyone else crazy. It’s easier to talk to you about the sorts of thgs, Amanda, bee I know you’re , as they say, “the club.” The club no one wants to be .</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-3 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>Has your relatnship to vlent imagery, eher wh or beyond your own work, changed at all the last few years?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Y, actually. There are thgs that Sie and I n’t watch on the TV. Sometim seems like every send seri on Netflix revolv around the loss or ath of a child. We s down together, and ’s, like,“Oh, God. Here we go aga.” That kd of stuff is difficult. I wouldn’t say I’ve lost my appete for, say, vlent lerature or vlent movi, though a lot of them seem kd of puerile the days. Maybe I’m jt olr. I hate to say this, to be hont, but I have found myself creasgly offend by movi that ntuoly and relentlsly volve the vlent ath of women. This might sound strange g om me, given the kd of songs that I’ve wrten the past, but I’ve lost my appete for that. But, you know, there are ltle triggers, bs of tastrophic language or unforeen, mercils remrs that exist wh even the most benign movi. Sie and I have bee eply sensized to each other’s triggers. I won’t go to tail—but the ltle vastatns happen all the time. Sie and I are rilient. We’ve grown tough. But at the same time don’t take much to sudnly and momentarily stroy .</p><p class="paywall"><strong>The book also broach the ia of relign and spirualy. At one pot, you prent mic self as a kd of argument agast atheism. You scribe as “the great ditor that somethg else is gog on, somethg unexplaed, bee allows to experience genue moments of transcennce.” Plenty of nrologists have prodd this ia—that humans have a kd of nate mily—but, my limed unrstandg of the rearch, remas relatively hard to expla, on a physlogil or evolutnary level, why mic works on .</strong></p><p class="paywall">My belief God—well, that’s a ltle plited. I’m full of doubt that rpect, but replete wh belief, too. Full of both thgs. Mostly, I hab a space between belief and unbelief. But, look, even if turns out there is no actual dive dimensn, mic feels touched by somethg else. The creative procs—pecially origal creatn, which, for me, is wrg words and mic—n feel like hard labor and much of the time is as far away om anythg you might ll spirual. I fd n be an agonizg and bilatg and solary bs. But there are sudn mystifyg moments of spirual eedom, where I am lifted om my feelgs of aquacy and I am sudnly flyg around the room like a gigglg fool, rapturoly transported. That’s not jt the creative procs—that’s life general. We lead our mon liv, but all around there are hunch and timatns and whispergs of somethg else. The small, softly spoken suggtns are enough for me to feel that there is some enigmatic otherns to be experienced, and that’s where my belief li.</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="e86h1"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">I unrstand where atheists are g om. But I thk the relentls shuttg down of the ia of the dive is, for me, jt bad for the bs of songwrg. It feels limg and uncreative. I thk that many micians are more prone to spirual ias bee they are naturally closer to the myster act of creatn. It’s part of our occupatn to hab a place that is at least adjacent to the ias. So many micians I know have a sort of unspoken, unannounced spirualy, which they experience naturally through the makg of mic.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>That n happen through ep listeng, too, I thk. One thg you said earlier, and this up the book also, is the flty ia that doubt somehow preclus fah—that you n’t have both doubt and fah at the same time. Yet maybe the act of balancg the two <em>is</em> the act of religsy?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Yeah, I totally agree wh that. I totally agree wh myself. [<em>Lghs</em>.] But, of urse, I don’t thk anyone who is ser about the matters don’t doubt on some level. And, at the very least, doubt is the antidote to dogma and fanaticism and rctnism. This posn—and this is not jt a relig pot of view; I would say, personally at least, this is where I s on most thgs—is a place of uncertaty. This uncertaty or unknowg, which I equate wh creativy, om an unrstandg of loss. We unrstand that life is not stable or pendable. This doubt feeds to everythg I feel spirually. I try to approach the matters wh huy and uncertaty and to not be dogmatic. That’s my problem wh ant atheists: their lack of huy. But, the end, I don’t thk atheism is the real problem. The atheist’s pot of view is weirdly staed through the imagatn of other people and their beliefs. A moralized difference to spirual matters is the problem.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>You’re right that profound grief quickly ph you away om both certu and difference, which are unproductive feelgs—</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-4 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">That’s right. Certu and difference. They’re the problems wh this world.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Am I askg too many qutns about grief? I have found to be an excciatg but nohels fascatg experience.</strong></p><p class="paywall">We have to be reful wh that, bee driv people away. I mean that also on a profsnal level. Sadly, grief has s sell-by date, to some gree—not to the person who is grievg but to other people. We are expected to jt get on wh thgs. One of the reasons I keep dog “The Red Hand Fil,” week after week, is that people often wre to talk about losg someone and the very real pa they’re . . . . I’m sorry, this is que difficult for me to talk about. Sudnly, you realize, Hang on, the person they are mourng died, like, fifteen years ago. It is extremely movg.</p><p class="paywall">Bee grief don’t jt go away. You bee more rilient; you bee more effective at navigatg and alg wh your feelgs. Yet the fundamental loss remas— don’t jt dissipate—and, a strange way, I thk n bee a mag for other loss. We e to see we are all simply creatur rryg around our ever-epeng loss. Small griefs seem to llect around the bigger primary grief. I thk this realizatn allows to bee a te human beg.</p><p class="paywall">And I don’t thk this suatn rolv self as you grow olr. In fact, more people jt die. Loss be the primary ndn of livg. That don’t mean you’re a hopels, grief-stricken state all the time; jt means that you rry a eper unrstandg of what is to be human. We suffer as human begs, but out of that n e enormo joys, and genue happs, too. It n n tanm wh this ordary sense of sufferg. Otherwise, joy don’t ronate fully. Joy seems to leap forth out of sufferg. Regardls of your loss, you see how betiful, how meangful, how joyful the world n sudnly be. Human begs general, you know, are fleetg thgs. That’s somethg to unrstand on a fundamental level. That we have value. That we are prec.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>You had a wonrful rponse to a fan sendg you a song produced by ChatGPT “ the style of Nick Cave.” You <a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">wrote</a>, “This song sucks.” Perhaps A.I. n never unrstand the sublime, or the self-annihilatn, required to make good art. When you see technology ed this way, do make you ncerned, or, nversely, uld ChatGPT’s abily to wre a good song somehow help value creative work more?</strong></p><p class="paywall">My objectn is not wh A.I. general. For better or for worse, we are extribly immersed A.I. It is more a kd of sad, disappoted feelg that there are smart people out there that actually thk the artistic act is so mundane that n be replited by a mache. I fd that sultg. There’s no earthly reason why we need to vent a technology that n mimic this most betiful and myster creative act. Particularly wrg a song. The thg about wrg a good song is that tells you somethg about yourself you didn’t already know. That’s the thg. You n’t mimic that. The good song is always shg forward. It annihilat, to some gree, the songs that you’d prevly wrten, bee you are movg forward all the time. That’s what the creative impulse is—’s both creative and stctive and is always one step ahead of you. The impuls n’t be replited by a mache. Maybe A.I. n make a song that’s distguishable om what I n do. Maybe even a better song. But, to me, that don’t matter—that’s not what art is. Art has to do wh our limatns, our ailti, and our flts as human begs. It’s the distance we n travel away om our own ailti. That’s what is so awome about art: that we eply flawed creatur n sometim do extraordary thgs. A.I. jt don’t have any of that stuff gog on. Ultimately, has no limatns, so therefore n’t hab the te transcennt artistic experience. It has nothg to transcend! It feels like such a mockery of what is to be human. A.I. may very well save the world, but n’t save our souls. That’s what te art is for. That’s the difference. So, I don’t know, my humble opn ChatGPT should jt fuck off and leave songwrg alone.</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="nsl42g"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="d2b6m"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall"><strong>You recently announced a new solo North Amerin tour, featurg jt you and the bassist Col Greenwood, of <a href=">Radhead</a>. I’m cur how you thk about the practice of wrg and rerdg vers performance?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-5 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">It is genuely difficult to s down, wh all your human limatns, and wre a song. I am wrg the lyrics to a new rerd at the moment, so all this is extremely raw, and I may be a ltle sensive about the matters, to say the least! [<em>Lghs</em>.] But, as the months drag on, you slowly draw the small threads of ias together that hopefully, eventually, make up a group of songs that bee an album. Once you’ve got that done, thgs start to reveal themselv and make sense, and you go to the stud wh your band members, and you start rerdg the mic, and ’s like llectg treasure. By the time you get the songs onto the stage, they have grown immensely emotnal stature. It n be a tly transcennt experience. So ’s a betiful, upward journey, to wre songs and prent them onstage. The small, wretched, ltle l that you’ve clawed out of yourself are sudnly amplified onstage, by the brilliance of the micians who play them, to the absolute light of your dience. It’s an extraordary feelg, really, the trajectory of a small, nsequential ia to somethg of te importance.</p><p class="paywall">Anyway, I’m g over to the Stat to promote “Fah, Hope and Carnage” when out paperback, bee I didn’t really get a chance to do anythg Ameri when was first published. And, at the same time, I’ll be drivg om town to town playg live shows, playg the piano, and sgg theatr and brgg Col Greenwood along to play bass. He jt fs there and plays so betifully.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Do you thk this llaboratn wh Col might extend to rerdg together?</strong></p><p class="paywall">We’re makg a Bad Seeds rerd soon. We haven’t gone to the actual rerdg of , but we have a brilliant bass player the Bad Seeds, Martyn Casey. Marty liv Perth, Atralia, but maybe Col will e and play somethg. He has a pletely different style om Marty. Marty’s a jaw-droppg powerhoe who holds everythg together. Col tends to be more fluid and melodic.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Last month saw the tenth anniversary of “Ph the Sky Away,” which was also when you first began wrg wh Warren Ellis, a longtime llaborator other rol. For me, there’s somethg really special—somethg surreal, almost terrifyg, yet so betiful, too—about the albums you’ve ma together. Can you talk a ltle b about that relatnship and how has evolved over the years?</strong></p><p class="paywall">“Ph the Sky Away” was a big moment the directn of the band. Thgs changed pletely. Part of that was a velopg creative relatnship wh Warren. Warren Ellis, se there is anyone out there who don’t know, is a flat-out geni and general chaos-maker and a wonrful late-reer creative partner to have found. So the procs of songwrg beme que different, mostly that we started to wre the mic to songs together as a team rather than me wrg them by myself, as I have tradnally done. This re-energized thgs. So the past ten years have been extraordarily creative. Amazg, really.</p><p class="paywall">Warren has, to my endurg envy, an unflaggg fah his own abili. Or at least he pretends to have , which is part of the battle. This is extraordarily helpful for someone like me, who suffers om a kd of chronic creative reticence. Warren n see, early on, the greatns the small thgs. Those timatns! Those softly spoken ias! It tak me a lot longer to tablish a posive relatnship wh the thgs we wre. So Warren is que lerally a gift.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Some artists talk about wrg or makg work as a kd of channellg. You have scribed the wrg procs as ght and difficult, but has beg onstage ever felt that way? As though you’re receivg a signal?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-6 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">For me, songwrg is sentially an office job: ’s gettg up the morng, stg down at ne o’clock, and workg away at thgs. I’m not channellg, as such, or receivg the gifts flyg down the spirual pipele, “the giant pencil om the sky,” as Town Van Zandt would say. But to perform onstage is another matter entirely. You n get reliably lost a kd of circular, munal feelg of mutual regard wh the dience—’s awome—an g and outpourg of love that n only be lled transcennt. You lose yourself pletely, transform to somethg entirely different.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Anythg that offers a kd of ego ath, a moment of self-obleratn, n be—at least for me, my grief, my life—such a balm. Often, I jt want to turn the volume down on myself a ltle b.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Y, that’s right. Onstage, all external worri dissipate. There is no space for them. And of urse is like that wh grief. There is no room for ordary ncerns. The great benef of grief is, you velop a kd of dacy toward life general, where jt don’t fuckg matter bee the worst has happened. This is extremely eeg s way. You do stuff that you wouldn’t normally do bee, well, what is the worst that n happen?</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Sudnly, the world is full of radil possibily bee you’re not sred of anythg anymore. It’s kd of naïve, bee you n always lose more, but also feels very real.</strong></p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="2wgk22"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">Exactly. I fd that has ma me bolr. I’m not so ncerned wh how I will be perceived, or what other people thk of me. On an artistic level, there’s more risk-takg. You lose some of your ncern about the oute of thgs. Grief n be, time, liberatg artistilly. Bee what’s the worst that n happen? You get a bad review?</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Speakg of boldns, the work you ma followg Arthur’s ath feels so vast and sgular, terms of both s mily and s risk-takg. In the book, you talk about “Ghosteen,” your 2019 album, as an vented place where Arthur n perhaps fd some sort of haven or rt: “I feel him roamg around the songs.” But you’re sistent that you don’t mean this metaphorilly—you mean lerally.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Thgs are a ltle different now than they were when I was makg “Ghosteen.” I was si—ep si—my grief. There were all manner of thgs that seemed possible that space. I don’t reject those feelgs at all. In the book, I ll the impossible realm, which is not the imagatn—’s adjacent to the imagatn and close proximy to ath. It’s a place where one has a sharpened awarens of the sentialns of thgs, and of the dive. I had a very real feelg at that time that I uld help Arthur’s spirual ndn—which really worried me—by creatg betiful mic to surround him wh. It upsets me when people wave this kd of thkg away as if ’s jt magil thkg, as if ’s tellectually dishont. Bee the thgs helped me enormoly. I would put relign there, as well—relign n be extraordarily helpful to people. I have a lot of time for relign, all sorts of ways, but pecially the sense that is a lifele to people who really need . There’s an ia that relign is jt a ctch—this is te, actually. Relign is a ctch, and a much-need one. And I fd the radil atheist ia of kickg out the ctch om unr people wh ratnaly is mean-spired. That pot of view—I hear a lot. It feels unkd, ungenero, humane.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>You have also talked about “Ghosteen” as a way of reachg Arthur and sayg goodbye. I thk this is a feelg shared by people who have lost someone sudnly and vlently—a need to make a different sort of endg. Yet was there any part of you that remaed ristant to the ia of sayg goodbye?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-7 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">I’m not so sure I need to say goodbye anymore. It don’t really work, anyway. [<em>Lghs</em>.] It’s not like by sayg goodbye the timated prence of your lost on wave to you and disappear. They’re all around. And this is O.K. I thk this is que a betiful thg. Everyone kept tellg me that Arthur lived my heart. Everyone said that, all the time.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I’ve heard that, too.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Y, I’m sure you have. I never really unrstood that. I was once told by a very clever person to take Arthur out of my heart and put him by my si. This was the simplt notn, but extremely effective. For some time, he was jt there, you know, bi me, as a spirual pann. I would, my way, discs thgs wh him. There was an actual relatnship that went on, Arthur parentg me my distrs. I felt protected and embolned by his prence. I don’t do that sort of thg so much anymore, though those who have died are always my prayers. But I don’t feel that need the same way as I did before. That’s not to say that Sie and I don’t psize regularly. But we don’t have that same terrible need.</p><p class="paywall">People harn around the absence of a person they loved who has passed on. There’s a ifitn of this absence. I thk this is an extremely problematic suatn to get yourself to, and ’s not unmon—livg your life wardly, focsg on the ad rather than focsg outwardly on life and livg. It’s a difficult thg to negotiate early on. But ’s sential that that happens. It n be difficult and sad, bee is the kd of lettg go that no one wants to do. But necsary.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Well, ’s another loss. A generative loss, maybe, but another loss.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Y, but we do need to release the spirs of those who have passed on.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I have found myself more terted rual—lightg ndl, thgs like that—as a way of givg space and physily to what I’m feelg. Do you engage any ruals, and have they been eful?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Well, y, we mt tend to ourselv as bt we n. Personally, I go to church, which is part rual. A way of brgg the feelgs, which are often so at odds wh our ordary, daily liv, and suatg them wh an stutn that has been around for lennia and als precisely the matters—feelgs of loss and spirual yearng and regeneratn—I drag all my doubts and skepticisms and, on a good day, feel them lifted om me. This feelg of “layg one’s burns down” is extremely helpful, I fd.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-8 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>I thk the aftermath of loss, there is often a sire to transmute the grief somehow, to turn to somethg else. Do you thk that’s what you’ve been dog? Transformg grief to performance, to art, as a way of both unrstandg and ntrollg ?</strong></p><p class="paywall">That’s a lovely qutn. I haven’t really thought of performance that way. But, y, you know, you are right, bee grief is a ndn of beg, and there is not much room for s exprsn the secular world. Performance, makg art, g the imagatn—I personally see the as non-secular acts. They are plac, like grief, where we are transformed. Jt to say, my dience has helped me enormoly that rpect. Their regard, their ncern has been overwhelmg. As you say, a balm. ♦</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="4z5c9a"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 PaywallInleBarrierWhWrapperGrid-fyrGfS kLQIUk grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="body body__le-barrier article__body"><div class="ntaer ntaer--body"><div class="ntaer--body-ner"><asi class="PaywallInleBarrierWrapper-iBnuqk lfXXa-D" data-ttid="PaywallInleBarrierWrapper"><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--paywall-le-barrier" role="prentatn" aria-live="pole" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--paywall-le-barrier"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></asi></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ContentWrapperGrid-fvkmBv brYtrA grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="body body__ntaer"><div class="ntaer ntaer--body"><div class="ntaer--body-ner"></div></div></div></div></div></div></article><div class="ContentFooterWrapper-jVNdRG dTJkpP ArticlePageContentFooterGrid-ccsXYy eMZRHU article-body__footer"><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="LkStackWrapper-NFLYw kgtXXB lkstack" data-ttid="LkStack"><div class="SectnTleRoot-dBGvdq kjAxEG LkStackHear-lKjbE hejl lk-stack--headg" data-ttid="SectnTle"><h2 class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SectnTleHed-dKqZet dxqEAa dqtvfu jttyjJ">More New Yorker Conversatns</h2></div><div class="LkStackContent-jyKicS gPhyME"><ul class="LkStackList-gGcjdZ dnMwpz"><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Eva Longoria brgs <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/eva-longoria-brgs-lato-life-to-the-screen" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">Lato life to the screen</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p><a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/harvey-karp-knows-how-to-make-babi-happy" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">Harvey Karp</a> knows how to make babi happy.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Tx explas why <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/tx-explas-why-were-datg-all-wrong" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">we’re datg all wrong</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Ken Jenngs has some <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/ken-jenngs-has-some-qutns-about-ath" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">qutns about ath</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Llie Marmon Silko <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/llie-marmon-silko-saw--g" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">saw g</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Tom Hanks on the rewards and <a 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SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Annals of Inquiry</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Are You the Same Person You Used to Be?</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Are You the Same Person You Used to Be?" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">Rearchers have studied how much of our personaly is set om childhood, but what you’re like isn’t who you are.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Joshua Rothman</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff hlYhBH summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm eamwqR" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="On Killg Charl Dickens" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl ldWYvC summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Life and Letters</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">On Killg Charl Dickens</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="On Killg Charl Dickens" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">I did everythg I uld to avoid wrg my historil novel. When I fally started “The Frd,” one prciple was clear: no Dickens.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Zadie Smh</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff hlYhBH summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm eamwqR" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Therapy Issue" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl ldWYvC summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Science</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">The Therapy Issue</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Therapy Issue" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">The talkg cure and other pursus of feelg better.</div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff hlYhBH summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm eamwqR" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Hidn Harms of CPR" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl ldWYvC summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">The Weekend Essay</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">The Hidn Harms of CPR</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Hidn Harms of CPR" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">The btal procre n save liv, but only particular s. Why has bee a flt treatment?</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Suna Puri</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm eamwqR ad ad--read-more"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--read-more" data-no-id="af543"></div></div></div><div class="SummaryCollectnGridToActnWrapper-gnReGN eGayfk"></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div 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grid-full-bleed grid-no-gap SplScreenContentHearMa-fNigKG daohZh"><div class="GridItem-buujkM eHLzLy grid--em"><div class="SplScreenContentHearTleBlock-sCMXE jActCi"><div data-ttid="ContentHearRubric"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX dZhWBL bric SplScreenContentHearRubric-cLHEJQ ildzkT"><a class="RubricLk-gRWSOU fgWnkQ bric__lk" href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">The New Yorker Interview</span></a></div></div><h1 data-ttid="ContentHearHed" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SplScreenContentHearHed-lcUSuI iUEiRd NbxED dfelga">Nick Cave on the Fragily of Life</h1><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SplScreenContentHearDek-emptdL iUEiRd wOnsu dJrDEb">The sger-songwrer believ that we are eply flawed, impermanent creatur who n sometim do extraordary thgs.</div><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl SplScreenContentHearByle-kvEhqE ejWxsm"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH bwbwth byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn lOLCm byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG uhfVi byle__preamble">By </span><a class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM ByleLk-gEnFiw iUEiRd ggMZaT cXqSTL brYZgj byle__name-lk button" href="/ntributors/amanda-petsich">Amanda Petsich</a></span></span></p></div><time data-ttid="ContentHearPublishDate" dateTime="2023-03-23T12:30:00-04:00" class="SplScreenContentHearPublishDate-bMGEVk gvRvVr">March 23, 2023</time><div class="SocialInsWrapper-hKMEXV ffgPVr social-ins social-ins--standard SplScreenContentHearSocialShare-gSVclr kUKgnn"><ul data-ttid="socialInslist" class="SocialInsList-cHVTIA ivmblD social-ins__list"><li class="SocialInsListItem-mbhR hHoUCw social-ins__list-em social-ins__list-em--facebook social-ins__list-em--standard thner"><a aria-label="Share on 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23.9508V2.95081H14V3.93211H6V22.1845L12.5 18.5536L19 22.1845V8.83866H20V23.9508Z"></path><path class="in-bookmark-fill" d="M23 3H20V0H19V3H16V4H19V7H20V4H23V3Z"></path></svg></span><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ ActnBarButtonText-bYXYuh iUEiRd bkefvo gkccfO">Save this story</span></button></div></div></div><div class="LightboxWrapper-dxsWBV hhylRt"><div class="ArticlePageChunksContent-etcMtP bwyLBj"><div data-ttid="ArticlePageChunks" class="ArticlePageChunks-fLyCVG Uozmo"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="has-dropp has-dropp__lead-standard-headg">Sce the late neteen-seventi, the Atralian mician Nick Cave has given voice to our gnarlit impuls and fears. As a foundg member of the phono post-punk band the Birthday Party, he sang of sexual perversns and vlent reveri a dank barone, a misf visnary the spir of <a href=">Tom Was</a>, <a href=">Alan Vega</a>, and <a href=">Iggy Pop</a>. (In 1981, “<a href=">Release the Bats</a>,” one of the band’s first sgl—“Release the bats! Release the bats! Pump them up and explo the thgs!”—was clared Song of the Year by the BBC broadster John Peel.) In 1983, Cave formed Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds; over time, his lyrics grew sharper and more strikg. In 1997, he released “The Boatman’s Call,” a bleak and tenr piano rerd about <a href=">romantic vastatn</a>. The album shows his aptu for articulatg heavy and plex human experienc wh elegance and gall. If you have ever felt a strange, throbbg ache somewhere low your gut—born of heartbreak, yearng, or some praved sire—Cave probably has a song for that.</p><p class="paywall">In 2015, when Cave was fifty-seven, his fifteen-year-old son, Arthur, died after accintally fallg om a cliff near the fay’s home, Brighton, England. In the aftermath, Cave turned his foc to another taboo experience: grief. “Skeleton Tree” (2016), the first rerd he released followg Arthur’s ath, opens wh <a href=">a claratn</a>: “You fell om the sky, crash-land a field near the River Adur,” he chants. “Wh my voice, I am llg you.” The album was followed, 2019, by “Ghosteen,” a sgular and profound medatn on loss and the afterlife. I have never heard anythg like . On “<a href=">Bright Hors</a>,” Cave ocsnally breaks to a pure, spectral falsetto that sounds only partially human. “Everyone has a heart, and ’s llg for somethg,” he sgs an early verse.</p><p class="paywall">Through the rerds and his long-nng newsletter, “<a href=">The Red Hand Fil</a>,” Cave has bee an unexpected Virgil for anyone mired grief and stg about for a warm but unsentimental gui. His advice is passnate and perceptive. (To a man who lost his , and whose nt now appears entirely subsumed by her grief, he <a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">unsels</a> only patience. “Aunt Marnie is spendg time wh the retreatg image of her parted son and perhaps there is no room for you at this moment. Perhaps now is not the time she needs you, but you n be sure, time, she will,” he wr.) In 2018, Cave announced a seri of tour dat which he would be nversatn wh his dience, a format he <a href=">scribed</a> as beg about “timacy and nnectedns.” Last year, he published “<a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fah, Hope and Carnage</a>,” an extend terview wh the journalist Seán O’Hagan; a paperback versn will be released by Pidor September. Cave has been open about his sufferg, even as chang shape. In 2022, seven years after Arthur’s ath, Cave’s olst son, Jethro, died Melbourne at age thirty-one. (Cave is currently married to the Brish mol and signer Sie Cave; Jethro was the child of an earlier relatnship, wh Be Lazenby.) “I’m not talkg about Jethro, bee his mother has exprsly asked me not to,” Cave told me recently. “She’s a grievg mother and very protective over him.”</p><p class="paywall">When I <a href=">lost my hband</a> sudnly, this past Augt, Cave’s late-reer albums were some of the only mic I uld tolerate. Though is a btally mon experience, grief is still challengg to evoke or expla. In those early weeks, I often listened to “Ghosteen” after puttg my baby dghter to bed, fdg fort s wildns and mystery. Our nversatn, which took place first over the phone and later over e-mail, has been nnsed and eded.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Nick, thanks for takg the time to talk wh me.</strong></p><p class="paywall">I’m a ltle agated, to be hont. I fot about the terview! I’ve been songwrg mo, wrg lyrics. Exce me if I’m a ltle sttered. But let’s give a go. Before we start, Amanda, I’m tly sorry to hear about your hband.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-1 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>Thank you. I wanted to tell you that your work has been a guidg light for me through my grief, an experience that I have found mostly bewilrg. I often feel as though I’m not the bt place for a nversatn, eher. Yet here we are!</strong></p><p class="paywall">And yet here we are.</p><div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--article-mid-ntent" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--article-mid-ntent nsumer-marketg-un__slot---ntent"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><p class="paywall"><strong>I was rereadg “Fah, Hope and Carnage” while preparg to speak wh you today, and on the very first page you say, “Interviews, general, suck. Really. They eat you up. I hate them.” That ma me lgh. Often I hate them, too.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Y, they n take so much away. Especially mic terviews. You make a rerd and love until you start talkg about terviews. You suck the life out of , strip of any mystery that may have had. I jt don’t like the procs. It’s ironic bee, for “Fah, Hope and Carnage,” I end up speakg to Seán O’Hagan for fifty hours, or somethg like that. But was well unrstood that I didn’t want to talk about mic particular, and that I didn’t want to talk about my life a nventnal way. We were able to talk about other thgs. Sce dog this, I have e to see the terview as almost an art form self. I found out, to my bewilrment and amazement, that terviews, or nversatns, uld actually be a way of munitg! [<em>Lghs</em>.] I’d never really nsired an terview to be that before.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I found that the back-and-forth between you and Seán left space for doubt, wonrg, doublg back. Tradnal terviews, tradnal memoirs, they n feel so closed and clarative. Good nversatn should have air .</strong></p><p class="paywall">That’s a lovely way to put . I thk the nversatn Seán and I had was much more about searchg. Both of were tryg to work out where we stood the world at that particular time, and what we thought about thgs. Throughout the terviews, my ias kept shiftg all the time.</p><div class="Contaer-bkChBi byNLHx"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>I once terviewed the wrer and environmentalist <a href=">Wenll Berry</a>, who was adamant about the importance of nversatn to humany’s survival. He said, “It’s eher that or kill each other.”</strong></p><p class="paywall">That’s exactly right. It seems to be sential, even if jt as a rrective for the bad, unexprsed ias we hold our heads. A lot of thgs I talked to Seán about I had never exprsed before. They were thoughts and ias that lived my head. Grief. Relign. When we rehearse our ias our mds, ’s always at a kd of fever pch, and the ias n feel extraordarily articulate. But, once you actually hear yourself speak them, the ias n appear nsirably ls robt, at least for me. Seán would ask me a qutn, and I’d say, “No, no, no.” Then, a week later, he would circle around and ask the same qutn, and I’d say, “Y. Y, y.” It was the procs of talkg about the matters that I me to a more nsired, nuanced posn on thgs. That’s the bety of the book, I thk—that the nversatn unfolds real time, and we see before our ey the power of nversatn to velop and epen ias.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-2 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>There’s a moment early on the book, jt a page or two , where you say, wh some purpose, that the ath of your son f you. That sort of seismic, sudn, life-alterg loss—for me, feels like not only the only thg that has ever happened to me but also the only thg that has ever <em>happened</em>. I felt relief when you jt clared like that.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Y, I jt didn’t regnize myself anymore. Did you feel the same way? I would look the mirror and not really know who was starg back. I jt seemed like a different kd of beg. Grief is extraordary s pacy to pletely alter on an almost atomic level. Sudnly, we hab a different body. Our relatnship wh everythg seems to change. It’s as if we’re simply a different person. I meant that que lerally. I changed om one person to another person.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>People often ment on your willgns to engage directly wh grief, first via the <a href=">Conversatns</a> tour, and then wh your wrg of “The Red Hand Fil”—you are unmonly genero this regard. Grief n feel burnsome for everyone, and yet I have also found that <em>not</em> engagg wh n be so lonome.</strong></p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><asi class="PersistentAsiWrapper-VGrR daRVRt persistent-asi" style="posn:absolute;top:to;height:to" data-ttid="PersistentAsiWrapper"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="ttp8zp"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></asi></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="cl2559"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">Y, I have found that, but, on the other hand, I didn’t want to talk about endlsly wh iends. I found a basic acknowledgment of the suatn went a long way. In the book, I talk about the first time I went out public after my son died and a woman om Infy Foods, a vegetarian takeaway I ed to go to, whom I knew. She didn’t mentn anythg when she took my orr, didn’t say anythg, which I felt was strange, you know? But when she gave me back my change she squeezed my hand. It was a silent but eply articulate act, beyond words, and more fortg than anythg I had read or that anyone had said. It stck me that don’t require much for people to al wh the grief of others. It jt requir a small, scere acknowledgment, and then we n move on a ltle b rather than be stuck alone an unclared falsens. But I do also unrstand that n be very difficult for people to have to al wh somebody else’s grief, pecially if they are seeg them all the time.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I thk people who are the thro of h grief very quickly bee hyperaware of the immovabily of that feelg. The way jt kd of ss there.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Exactly. I read a betiful le by the poet Ellen Bass, a poem about grief lled “The Thg Is.” She says, “Grief weights you down like your own flh / only more of , an oby of grief.” That was que a startlg but eply faiar image. Grief squeez the mon oxygen out of the room so that no one has air to breathe.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>You have found a way to apply eful, elegant language to the experience of loss—to articulate wh grace and accuracy. In the book, you scribe the early days of your grief as “a place of acute disorr—a chaos that was also a kd of pacatn.” But you also pot out that ’s ordary: “We are all, at some pot our liv, oblerated by loss.” How did you build a vobulary to scribe the thgs?</strong></p><p class="paywall">For me, beme sential to work out a way of dog that. I need a way to articulate grief. I did the -nversatn events, which, to me, were a not always succsful attempt at exprsg the thgs. I don’t know really what I was tryg to do when I did those; I’d gone a b mad. They were strange thgs to do. So was really wh “The Red Hand Fil” that I learned how to wre about —even though I uldn’t really talk about , at least I uld velop a language around grief. It took the nversatns wh Seán—and they were sometim que paful—to work out, over time, a way of aquately scribg the mechanics of grief. Seán allowed me the time, the room. We are often hypernsc of the way our grief mak others feel. We bee like antimatter suckg everythg to the vacuum of our anguish, the air, the life. I don’t know. I jt found difficult to talk normally to people about . I had to work out a way where I uld talk about whout drivg myself and everyone else crazy. It’s easier to talk to you about the sorts of thgs, Amanda, bee I know you’re , as they say, “the club.” The club no one wants to be .</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-3 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>Has your relatnship to vlent imagery, eher wh or beyond your own work, changed at all the last few years?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Y, actually. There are thgs that Sie and I n’t watch on the TV. Sometim seems like every send seri on Netflix revolv around the loss or ath of a child. We s down together, and ’s, like,“Oh, God. Here we go aga.” That kd of stuff is difficult. I wouldn’t say I’ve lost my appete for, say, vlent lerature or vlent movi, though a lot of them seem kd of puerile the days. Maybe I’m jt olr. I hate to say this, to be hont, but I have found myself creasgly offend by movi that ntuoly and relentlsly volve the vlent ath of women. This might sound strange g om me, given the kd of songs that I’ve wrten the past, but I’ve lost my appete for that. But, you know, there are ltle triggers, bs of tastrophic language or unforeen, mercils remrs that exist wh even the most benign movi. Sie and I have bee eply sensized to each other’s triggers. I won’t go to tail—but the ltle vastatns happen all the time. Sie and I are rilient. We’ve grown tough. But at the same time don’t take much to sudnly and momentarily stroy .</p><p class="paywall"><strong>The book also broach the ia of relign and spirualy. At one pot, you prent mic self as a kd of argument agast atheism. You scribe as “the great ditor that somethg else is gog on, somethg unexplaed, bee allows to experience genue moments of transcennce.” Plenty of nrologists have prodd this ia—that humans have a kd of nate mily—but, my limed unrstandg of the rearch, remas relatively hard to expla, on a physlogil or evolutnary level, why mic works on .</strong></p><p class="paywall">My belief God—well, that’s a ltle plited. I’m full of doubt that rpect, but replete wh belief, too. Full of both thgs. Mostly, I hab a space between belief and unbelief. But, look, even if turns out there is no actual dive dimensn, mic feels touched by somethg else. The creative procs—pecially origal creatn, which, for me, is wrg words and mic—n feel like hard labor and much of the time is as far away om anythg you might ll spirual. I fd n be an agonizg and bilatg and solary bs. But there are sudn mystifyg moments of spirual eedom, where I am lifted om my feelgs of aquacy and I am sudnly flyg around the room like a gigglg fool, rapturoly transported. That’s not jt the creative procs—that’s life general. We lead our mon liv, but all around there are hunch and timatns and whispergs of somethg else. The small, softly spoken suggtns are enough for me to feel that there is some enigmatic otherns to be experienced, and that’s where my belief li.</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="e86h1"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">I unrstand where atheists are g om. But I thk the relentls shuttg down of the ia of the dive is, for me, jt bad for the bs of songwrg. It feels limg and uncreative. I thk that many micians are more prone to spirual ias bee they are naturally closer to the myster act of creatn. It’s part of our occupatn to hab a place that is at least adjacent to the ias. So many micians I know have a sort of unspoken, unannounced spirualy, which they experience naturally through the makg of mic.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>That n happen through ep listeng, too, I thk. One thg you said earlier, and this up the book also, is the flty ia that doubt somehow preclus fah—that you n’t have both doubt and fah at the same time. Yet maybe the act of balancg the two <em>is</em> the act of religsy?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Yeah, I totally agree wh that. I totally agree wh myself. [<em>Lghs</em>.] But, of urse, I don’t thk anyone who is ser about the matters don’t doubt on some level. And, at the very least, doubt is the antidote to dogma and fanaticism and rctnism. This posn—and this is not jt a relig pot of view; I would say, personally at least, this is where I s on most thgs—is a place of uncertaty. This uncertaty or unknowg, which I equate wh creativy, om an unrstandg of loss. We unrstand that life is not stable or pendable. This doubt feeds to everythg I feel spirually. I try to approach the matters wh huy and uncertaty and to not be dogmatic. That’s my problem wh ant atheists: their lack of huy. But, the end, I don’t thk atheism is the real problem. The atheist’s pot of view is weirdly staed through the imagatn of other people and their beliefs. A moralized difference to spirual matters is the problem.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>You’re right that profound grief quickly ph you away om both certu and difference, which are unproductive feelgs—</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-4 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">That’s right. Certu and difference. They’re the problems wh this world.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Am I askg too many qutns about grief? I have found to be an excciatg but nohels fascatg experience.</strong></p><p class="paywall">We have to be reful wh that, bee driv people away. I mean that also on a profsnal level. Sadly, grief has s sell-by date, to some gree—not to the person who is grievg but to other people. We are expected to jt get on wh thgs. One of the reasons I keep dog “The Red Hand Fil,” week after week, is that people often wre to talk about losg someone and the very real pa they’re . . . . I’m sorry, this is que difficult for me to talk about. Sudnly, you realize, Hang on, the person they are mourng died, like, fifteen years ago. It is extremely movg.</p><p class="paywall">Bee grief don’t jt go away. You bee more rilient; you bee more effective at navigatg and alg wh your feelgs. Yet the fundamental loss remas— don’t jt dissipate—and, a strange way, I thk n bee a mag for other loss. We e to see we are all simply creatur rryg around our ever-epeng loss. Small griefs seem to llect around the bigger primary grief. I thk this realizatn allows to bee a te human beg.</p><p class="paywall">And I don’t thk this suatn rolv self as you grow olr. In fact, more people jt die. Loss be the primary ndn of livg. That don’t mean you’re a hopels, grief-stricken state all the time; jt means that you rry a eper unrstandg of what is to be human. We suffer as human begs, but out of that n e enormo joys, and genue happs, too. It n n tanm wh this ordary sense of sufferg. Otherwise, joy don’t ronate fully. Joy seems to leap forth out of sufferg. Regardls of your loss, you see how betiful, how meangful, how joyful the world n sudnly be. Human begs general, you know, are fleetg thgs. That’s somethg to unrstand on a fundamental level. That we have value. That we are prec.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>You had a wonrful rponse to a fan sendg you a song produced by ChatGPT “ the style of Nick Cave.” You <a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">wrote</a>, “This song sucks.” Perhaps A.I. n never unrstand the sublime, or the self-annihilatn, required to make good art. When you see technology ed this way, do make you ncerned, or, nversely, uld ChatGPT’s abily to wre a good song somehow help value creative work more?</strong></p><p class="paywall">My objectn is not wh A.I. general. For better or for worse, we are extribly immersed A.I. It is more a kd of sad, disappoted feelg that there are smart people out there that actually thk the artistic act is so mundane that n be replited by a mache. I fd that sultg. There’s no earthly reason why we need to vent a technology that n mimic this most betiful and myster creative act. Particularly wrg a song. The thg about wrg a good song is that tells you somethg about yourself you didn’t already know. That’s the thg. You n’t mimic that. The good song is always shg forward. It annihilat, to some gree, the songs that you’d prevly wrten, bee you are movg forward all the time. That’s what the creative impulse is—’s both creative and stctive and is always one step ahead of you. The impuls n’t be replited by a mache. Maybe A.I. n make a song that’s distguishable om what I n do. Maybe even a better song. But, to me, that don’t matter—that’s not what art is. Art has to do wh our limatns, our ailti, and our flts as human begs. It’s the distance we n travel away om our own ailti. That’s what is so awome about art: that we eply flawed creatur n sometim do extraordary thgs. A.I. jt don’t have any of that stuff gog on. Ultimately, has no limatns, so therefore n’t hab the te transcennt artistic experience. It has nothg to transcend! It feels like such a mockery of what is to be human. A.I. may very well save the world, but n’t save our souls. That’s what te art is for. That’s the difference. So, I don’t know, my humble opn ChatGPT should jt fuck off and leave songwrg alone.</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="nsl42g"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="d2b6m"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall"><strong>You recently announced a new solo North Amerin tour, featurg jt you and the bassist Col Greenwood, of <a href=">Radhead</a>. I’m cur how you thk about the practice of wrg and rerdg vers performance?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-5 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">It is genuely difficult to s down, wh all your human limatns, and wre a song. I am wrg the lyrics to a new rerd at the moment, so all this is extremely raw, and I may be a ltle sensive about the matters, to say the least! [<em>Lghs</em>.] But, as the months drag on, you slowly draw the small threads of ias together that hopefully, eventually, make up a group of songs that bee an album. Once you’ve got that done, thgs start to reveal themselv and make sense, and you go to the stud wh your band members, and you start rerdg the mic, and ’s like llectg treasure. By the time you get the songs onto the stage, they have grown immensely emotnal stature. It n be a tly transcennt experience. So ’s a betiful, upward journey, to wre songs and prent them onstage. The small, wretched, ltle l that you’ve clawed out of yourself are sudnly amplified onstage, by the brilliance of the micians who play them, to the absolute light of your dience. It’s an extraordary feelg, really, the trajectory of a small, nsequential ia to somethg of te importance.</p><p class="paywall">Anyway, I’m g over to the Stat to promote “Fah, Hope and Carnage” when out paperback, bee I didn’t really get a chance to do anythg Ameri when was first published. And, at the same time, I’ll be drivg om town to town playg live shows, playg the piano, and sgg theatr and brgg Col Greenwood along to play bass. He jt fs there and plays so betifully.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Do you thk this llaboratn wh Col might extend to rerdg together?</strong></p><p class="paywall">We’re makg a Bad Seeds rerd soon. We haven’t gone to the actual rerdg of , but we have a brilliant bass player the Bad Seeds, Martyn Casey. Marty liv Perth, Atralia, but maybe Col will e and play somethg. He has a pletely different style om Marty. Marty’s a jaw-droppg powerhoe who holds everythg together. Col tends to be more fluid and melodic.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Last month saw the tenth anniversary of “Ph the Sky Away,” which was also when you first began wrg wh Warren Ellis, a longtime llaborator other rol. For me, there’s somethg really special—somethg surreal, almost terrifyg, yet so betiful, too—about the albums you’ve ma together. Can you talk a ltle b about that relatnship and how has evolved over the years?</strong></p><p class="paywall">“Ph the Sky Away” was a big moment the directn of the band. Thgs changed pletely. Part of that was a velopg creative relatnship wh Warren. Warren Ellis, se there is anyone out there who don’t know, is a flat-out geni and general chaos-maker and a wonrful late-reer creative partner to have found. So the procs of songwrg beme que different, mostly that we started to wre the mic to songs together as a team rather than me wrg them by myself, as I have tradnally done. This re-energized thgs. So the past ten years have been extraordarily creative. Amazg, really.</p><p class="paywall">Warren has, to my endurg envy, an unflaggg fah his own abili. Or at least he pretends to have , which is part of the battle. This is extraordarily helpful for someone like me, who suffers om a kd of chronic creative reticence. Warren n see, early on, the greatns the small thgs. Those timatns! Those softly spoken ias! It tak me a lot longer to tablish a posive relatnship wh the thgs we wre. So Warren is que lerally a gift.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Some artists talk about wrg or makg work as a kd of channellg. You have scribed the wrg procs as ght and difficult, but has beg onstage ever felt that way? As though you’re receivg a signal?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-6 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">For me, songwrg is sentially an office job: ’s gettg up the morng, stg down at ne o’clock, and workg away at thgs. I’m not channellg, as such, or receivg the gifts flyg down the spirual pipele, “the giant pencil om the sky,” as Town Van Zandt would say. But to perform onstage is another matter entirely. You n get reliably lost a kd of circular, munal feelg of mutual regard wh the dience—’s awome—an g and outpourg of love that n only be lled transcennt. You lose yourself pletely, transform to somethg entirely different.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Anythg that offers a kd of ego ath, a moment of self-obleratn, n be—at least for me, my grief, my life—such a balm. Often, I jt want to turn the volume down on myself a ltle b.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Y, that’s right. Onstage, all external worri dissipate. There is no space for them. And of urse is like that wh grief. There is no room for ordary ncerns. The great benef of grief is, you velop a kd of dacy toward life general, where jt don’t fuckg matter bee the worst has happened. This is extremely eeg s way. You do stuff that you wouldn’t normally do bee, well, what is the worst that n happen?</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Sudnly, the world is full of radil possibily bee you’re not sred of anythg anymore. It’s kd of naïve, bee you n always lose more, but also feels very real.</strong></p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="2wgk22"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">Exactly. I fd that has ma me bolr. I’m not so ncerned wh how I will be perceived, or what other people thk of me. On an artistic level, there’s more risk-takg. You lose some of your ncern about the oute of thgs. Grief n be, time, liberatg artistilly. Bee what’s the worst that n happen? You get a bad review?</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Speakg of boldns, the work you ma followg Arthur’s ath feels so vast and sgular, terms of both s mily and s risk-takg. In the book, you talk about “Ghosteen,” your 2019 album, as an vented place where Arthur n perhaps fd some sort of haven or rt: “I feel him roamg around the songs.” But you’re sistent that you don’t mean this metaphorilly—you mean lerally.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Thgs are a ltle different now than they were when I was makg “Ghosteen.” I was si—ep si—my grief. There were all manner of thgs that seemed possible that space. I don’t reject those feelgs at all. In the book, I ll the impossible realm, which is not the imagatn—’s adjacent to the imagatn and close proximy to ath. It’s a place where one has a sharpened awarens of the sentialns of thgs, and of the dive. I had a very real feelg at that time that I uld help Arthur’s spirual ndn—which really worried me—by creatg betiful mic to surround him wh. It upsets me when people wave this kd of thkg away as if ’s jt magil thkg, as if ’s tellectually dishont. Bee the thgs helped me enormoly. I would put relign there, as well—relign n be extraordarily helpful to people. I have a lot of time for relign, all sorts of ways, but pecially the sense that is a lifele to people who really need . There’s an ia that relign is jt a ctch—this is te, actually. Relign is a ctch, and a much-need one. And I fd the radil atheist ia of kickg out the ctch om unr people wh ratnaly is mean-spired. That pot of view—I hear a lot. It feels unkd, ungenero, humane.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>You have also talked about “Ghosteen” as a way of reachg Arthur and sayg goodbye. I thk this is a feelg shared by people who have lost someone sudnly and vlently—a need to make a different sort of endg. Yet was there any part of you that remaed ristant to the ia of sayg goodbye?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-7 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">I’m not so sure I need to say goodbye anymore. It don’t really work, anyway. [<em>Lghs</em>.] It’s not like by sayg goodbye the timated prence of your lost on wave to you and disappear. They’re all around. And this is O.K. I thk this is que a betiful thg. Everyone kept tellg me that Arthur lived my heart. Everyone said that, all the time.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I’ve heard that, too.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Y, I’m sure you have. I never really unrstood that. I was once told by a very clever person to take Arthur out of my heart and put him by my si. This was the simplt notn, but extremely effective. For some time, he was jt there, you know, bi me, as a spirual pann. I would, my way, discs thgs wh him. There was an actual relatnship that went on, Arthur parentg me my distrs. I felt protected and embolned by his prence. I don’t do that sort of thg so much anymore, though those who have died are always my prayers. But I don’t feel that need the same way as I did before. That’s not to say that Sie and I don’t psize regularly. But we don’t have that same terrible need.</p><p class="paywall">People harn around the absence of a person they loved who has passed on. There’s a ifitn of this absence. I thk this is an extremely problematic suatn to get yourself to, and ’s not unmon—livg your life wardly, focsg on the ad rather than focsg outwardly on life and livg. It’s a difficult thg to negotiate early on. But ’s sential that that happens. It n be difficult and sad, bee is the kd of lettg go that no one wants to do. But necsary.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Well, ’s another loss. A generative loss, maybe, but another loss.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Y, but we do need to release the spirs of those who have passed on.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I have found myself more terted rual—lightg ndl, thgs like that—as a way of givg space and physily to what I’m feelg. Do you engage any ruals, and have they been eful?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Well, y, we mt tend to ourselv as bt we n. Personally, I go to church, which is part rual. A way of brgg the feelgs, which are often so at odds wh our ordary, daily liv, and suatg them wh an stutn that has been around for lennia and als precisely the matters—feelgs of loss and spirual yearng and regeneratn—I drag all my doubts and skepticisms and, on a good day, feel them lifted om me. This feelg of “layg one’s burns down” is extremely helpful, I fd.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-8 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>I thk the aftermath of loss, there is often a sire to transmute the grief somehow, to turn to somethg else. Do you thk that’s what you’ve been dog? Transformg grief to performance, to art, as a way of both unrstandg and ntrollg ?</strong></p><p class="paywall">That’s a lovely qutn. I haven’t really thought of performance that way. But, y, you know, you are right, bee grief is a ndn of beg, and there is not much room for s exprsn the secular world. Performance, makg art, g the imagatn—I personally see the as non-secular acts. They are plac, like grief, where we are transformed. Jt to say, my dience has helped me enormoly that rpect. Their regard, their ncern has been overwhelmg. As you say, a balm. ♦</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="4z5c9a"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 PaywallInleBarrierWhWrapperGrid-fyrGfS kLQIUk grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="body body__le-barrier article__body"><div class="ntaer ntaer--body"><div 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to make babi happy.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Tx explas why <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/tx-explas-why-were-datg-all-wrong" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">we’re datg all wrong</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Ken Jenngs has some <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/ken-jenngs-has-some-qutns-about-ath" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">qutns about ath</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Llie Marmon Silko <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/llie-marmon-silko-saw--g" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">saw g</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Tom Hanks on the rewards and <a 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emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Joshua Rothman</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff hlYhBH summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm eamwqR" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="On Killg Charl Dickens" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl ldWYvC summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Life and Letters</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">On Killg Charl Dickens</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="On Killg Charl Dickens" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">I did everythg I uld to avoid wrg my historil novel. When I fally started “The Frd,” one prciple was clear: no Dickens.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Zadie Smh</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff hlYhBH summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm eamwqR" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Therapy Issue" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl ldWYvC summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Science</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">The Therapy Issue</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Therapy Issue" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">The talkg cure and other pursus of feelg better.</div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff hlYhBH summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm eamwqR" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Hidn Harms of CPR" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl ldWYvC summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">The Weekend Essay</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">The Hidn Harms of CPR</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Hidn Harms of CPR" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">The btal procre n save liv, but only particular s. Why has bee a flt treatment?</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Suna Puri</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm eamwqR ad ad--read-more"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--read-more" data-no-id="af543"></div></div></div><div class="SummaryCollectnGridToActnWrapper-gnReGN eGayfk"></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div 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