Jarod Khner gay? When Donald Tmp met he thought might be possible.

*BEAR-MAGAZINE.COM* KUSHNER GAY

bars</tle><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_65hRV2Qwn" class="css-1fxvzwo" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_ILVvi2tqx" class="css-1wnday1" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC"><rect x="34" width="6" height="36" id="el_qw_T_tngXw"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_p_9Pm85Ac" class="css-fwki7z" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_WxG3R40yd" class="css-t3i5e6" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU"><rect x="22.67" width="6" height="36" id="el_lf9GrROk6j"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_kYNRGDfcw" class="css-t9te0w" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_3c3bzSjOJ" class="css-1r5375t" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw"><rect x="11.33" width="6" height="36" id="el_-iueO8klO0"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_y_fKcpSxn" class="css-qknaag" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_R6bNB6_Ys" class="css-1vd04" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC"><rect width="6" height="36" id="el_dS5TKNZZ5w"></rect></g></g></g></svg></div><div><div class="css-1t7yl1y">0:00<!-- -->/<!-- -->37:33</div><div class="css-og85jy">-<!-- -->37:33</div></div></div></div></hear><div class="css-uzyn7p"><div class="css-1vxyw"><p class="css-1nng8z9">transcript</p><h2 class="css-9wqu2x">Tony Khner on the Republin ‘Fantasy’ of a Natn Controlled by ‘Straight Whe Men’ </h2><h4 class="css-qsd3hm">The playwright discs the recent wave of anti-L.G.B.T.Q. polici and how far the untry has — or hasn’t — e sce the AIDS epimic.</h4><time dateTime="2022-04-18T09:00:06.000Z" class="css-1e605">2022-04-18T05:00:06-04:00</time></div><dl class="css-p98d0w"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mic</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">When you walk a room, do you have sway?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m Kara Swisher, and you’re listeng to “Sway.” Like a lot of gay people who me of age durg the AIDS crisis, I’ve lived through s of stggle and then real progrs on gay rights. So feels a b like a ja vu nightmare the days, as the hard-won ground seems at risk, om Florida’s “Don’t Say Gay” law to a ntent Texas effort that threatens to spl up trans kids om their parents, feels like we’re hurtlg back to a ls tolerant time we all thought we’d left behd long ago.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I cid to talk to one of my favore cultural ins, Tony Khner. The Tony Award-wner’s 1991 play “Angels Ameri” wasn’t jt great art, also changed the entire nversatn around AIDS and around the gay muny. It’s set New York Cy the 1980s and follows the liv of people affected by the AIDS crisis. One of the characters is a gay Mormon man nial. Another is Roy Cohn, a closeted Republin who was close to the Reagans and ironilly was a major mentor to Donald Tmp.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The play has stood the tt of time, wh an Emmy-award wng seri on HBO 2003 and a h Broadway revival 2018. But s msage may be danger. So I wanted to ask Khner about how far the natn has e or hasn’t sce “Angels.” And I also wanted to dig to some of his newer projects, cludg his recent remake of “Wt Si Story” wh his old pal Steven Spielberg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Tony Khner, wele to “Sway.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thanks. Nice to be here.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t want to necsarily go back to everythg you’ve done. I know one of the thgs you said was that, when you die, that “Angels Ameri” would be on your obuary The Tim, but you said, I will have an obuary The Tim, which I thought was pretty funny. But I’d love you to reflect on how nnects to today, pecially this moment when Ron DeSantis jt signed the don’t say gay bill.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t know exactly how to expla . I mean, maybe jt bee ’s so long and there’s so much sort of stuffed to . “Angels” always seems to have some kd of nnectn to whatever historil moment ’s beg revived . But I don’t know that ultimately that’s the greatt power that posss. I thk ’s a more direct power that speaks to issu that human begs are nstantly alg wh.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">They’re not not-polil issu, but they’re a mixture of polil and personal and psychologil and philosophil and theologil issu. And I thk that the stuff the play that I’m proust of is the stuff that speaks to that. And, you know, ’s not a surprise to anyone that the rights of mori and human rights general are not guaranteed. It’s Passover, so we n say . In every generatn, the pharaoh aris to stroy . Many tim wh each generatn, the possibily of enslavement, of opprsn, of stctive, murro discrimatn exists and has to be risted.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So, you know, we’ve ma immense progrs sce “Angels” first appeared. And yet we are not saved. I mean, there’s no permanency to . This bill Florida is an abomatn. It’s cynil. And I thk exists primarily, as so much the sort of sane right-wg legislatn all over the untry now exists, to hopefully drive the issu back to the Supreme Court, where this very right-wg urt may or may not dismantle everythg that’s been gaed.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">There’s somethg you said once, that there’s not such a thg as permanent w the polil arena or undoable progrs. And yet, at the end of “Angels Ameri,” you know, the world only sps forward. But don’t necsarily sp the way you’re talkg about there. You’re talkg about progrs, rrect?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, y. I mean, that is a part of the vast damage done by reactnary polics is that the world is spng forward. Change is happeng. People are progrsg. I mean, you n’t reverse the flow of history. The whe, straight, theocratic right is so termed to return the untry to some fantasy of exclive ntrol by whe straight men, is that, ’s a fantasy. But when they try to enact to legislatn like DeSantis did, creat damage precisely bee, while they’re fightg agast the ti of history, ’s ntug to move forward. And the price of that ictn of their sistence on attemptg to reverse the flow of history are human liv. There’s an unspeakable st to pa. So I believe that there is a kd of forward momentum —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mm-hmm. But might not be a posive forward momentum, other words?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, ’s always posive. I mean, Brecht said this great thg. The bad new thgs are always better than the good old thgs. So I thk we have to keep aware of the fact that we’re movg forward and yet also be aware that, while we’re movg forward, there’s a lot of mischief that n be ma.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">For stance, the terrible people Florida, what they’re really after, obvly, is not really about not teachg krgartners about, you know, genr. What they’re really worried about, what they’re really after is same-sex marriage and adoptn. But you n image the horrific suatn that would rult if they actually got the Supreme Court to reverse the cisns that have ma same-sex marriage law across the Uned Stat.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK, so “Angels Ameri” is set at a very specific time, durg the AIDS epimic and the Reagan years, which you wrote after that. But is rather prcient. Roy Cohn is one of the ma characters.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">For people who don’t know, he was the thls right-wg lawyer who was Joseph McCarthy’s chief unsel. He was homophobic, closeted, end up dyg of AIDS 1986. He was also one of Donald Tmp’s mentors.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I thk when I was watchg that play, I was thkg, oh, he’s obvly the articulatn of Reaganism. But fact, was somethg much worse, which was Donald Tmp. I n’t believe I’m sayg much worse, but there you have .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, you’re makg a separatn that I don’t agree wh. I thk —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK, tell me.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk Donald Tmp is the evable nsequence of Reaganism.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, let’s talk about that first then, bee jt feels like, even more so, Roy Cohn’s ronance is even eper now. But go ahead.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, well, y, I mean, bee the kd of McCarthye magoguery where Roy Cohn honed the skills that he then passed on to Tmp were held check for years by holdovers om the old Republin party that wouldn’t have tolerated the sort of behavr that beme the daily diet of the Tmp admistratn.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But that was bee they were more genteel. They believed that the Senate was a batg club, blah, blah, blah, blah. It took a while. It took 40 years for Reaganism to really do the damage that was tent on dog at the begng.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And a lot of the people, cludg Reagan himself, would never have regnized themselv Tmp. And a lot of the sort of — I mean, God bls them. The never-Tmpers, the Republins who said, I’m agast this, this is a terrible visatn on the Republin Party, they didn’t regnize what they’ve done. They don’t regnize themselv Tmp.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But ego-anarchism, which is what they were always talkg about — I mean, what do anarchism lead to except lawlsns? What do lead to except, you know, people who flagrantly ci that ’s up to them whether or not they obey a ngrsnal subpoena or obey the Hatch Act or any other law that isn’t nvenient to them?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So one of the thgs that’s really strikg is when you look at the way you wrote Roy Cohn. Do you see anyone today that ronat the same way? Bee you see his fluence everywhere.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, I mean, I thk when Tmp has lamented, where’s my Roy Cohn, I thk he’s not jt speakg general, where’s a lawyer? But stead of Roy Cohn, he got Rudy Giuliani, who’s batsh. I mean, sorry, bananas. Can you say batsh?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You n say batsh, please.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Anyway, I mean, whatever Giuliani was. At one pot, he was a reprehensible human beg but at least herent. He’s now bee pletely embarrassgly herent. And if he had anybody who really loved him, they would fd some way to get him to leave the public arena.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">You know, I thk that when Tmp said where’s my Roy Cohn, I don’t know. I’m sure there are people like him. But every time one of the new, sort of really smart — ostensibly really smart — Tmp lawyers pop up, they pretty quickly distegrate to self-servg babble. And Roy was of great service to people like the Reagans. He really knew how to do the job that he was assigned to do.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Instead of that, I thk you have sort of clowns like Roger Stone or Bannon. I mean, the people are show-boaters.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So the terview about “Angels Ameri,” you said, quote, “The play don’t scribe a time of great triumph. It scrib a time of great terror, beneath the surface of which, the seeds of change are begng to ph upward and through.” How do you asss where we are right now? Do you thk the seeds of change that posive way you were talkg about are there now? Or is a different time?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, absolutely. I mean, and there’s the kd of grim — I mean, and this is one way which the world ntu to sp forward, even though there are efforts to get to reverse directn. The murr of Gee Floyd forced the untry, for a number of sends anyway, to pay attentn to what’s happeng to young Black people, to Black people general at the hands of the police. And ed a nversatn about systemic racism, about stctural racism, about the endurance of racism as like a ntug thread throughout Amerin history and that is still, even though we’ve now had a Black print, we’re still you know, so far om where we ought to be as a mocratic society.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And was ed to ph back and w polil gas too wh cril race theory Virgia, for example.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, well, and they’re tryg to do that now. Y, and Virgia, succeed. But I see so much evince that the nversatn that got started is not gog to go away. And I believe that — I mean, the example of Gee Floyd is somethg of a tly monstro event. I mean, what was so extraordary about the immediate aftermath is that, the middle of a panmic, when you uld feel people like Tmp tryg — I mean, you uld hear him tryg very hard to say, oh, this is all gog to be about rtg and lootg. And the untry as a whole, bee of the sistence of the Black muny, risted that, for a time at least.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">For a time.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, but I thk for a signifint time. I mean, I thk felt to me very much like the moment when AIDS first appeared the ‘80s. And was a sexually transmted disease that killed gay men. So people like Falwell and people like that, William F. Buckley, jumped on that and said, here is. It’s God’s revenge on you for dog the disgtg thgs.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And the L.G.B.T. muny uld absolutely have kd of wered. And stead of that, there was a termed sistence that we grab hold of the narrative and make this blogil tastrophe that was happeng not a e for retrogra motn, not a e for losg rights, but actually, we sisted that this was one reason why, among many reasons why, people had to look at what happens when people are opprsed. And I thk that the same thg happened after the Gee Floyd murr. So I thk that there was an sistence that the narrative ntue to go a progrsive directn. And I believe was one. I mean, I thk cril race theory nonsense om the right, ’s speratn. It’s you know —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, Tony, works.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It works if we let work. But I don’t thk that we — I mean, that’s the thg is that, y, will absolutely work if we start to ce ground. I mean, if the Democratic Party listens to too many people sayg, oh, we have to now bee more centrist, by which they mean, don’t talk about Black people anymore. Don’t talk about L.G.B.T. rights. Don’t talk about trans people anymore.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Bin’s mpaign was a tremendoly progrsive mpaign. It took a lot of work to make him adhere to that. And I thk that we need to keep gog that directn. If we do, if we llectively fight back agast nonsense nards like, oh, they’re gog to teach your kids to be unhappy that they’re whe or whatever the hell is they’re sayg or they’re gog to teach your krgartner —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They’re g the term parental rights on all the thgs, whether ’s cril race theory — but the numbers are big, the anti-L.G.B.T.Q.+ bills have been creasg sce 2018. There’s different timat, but around 200 state bills have been proposed so far this year. Many target transgenr rights specifilly, some wh athlet, which is a way . They did the same thg around abortn. They targeted small areas and then moved on. How do you look at the bills? And why are they particularly targetg transgenr rights at this pot?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Bee I thk that — I mean, ’s not OK now, kd of not OK. I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene jt tried wh Pete Buttigieg and his hband. It’s not really OK to sneer openly at gay men and lbians. So they have to fd somebody that they n make miserable and lgh at. And as long as they prent a grotque riture of what trans people are and what trans people want, yeah, they n get everybody a state of hysterics.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">An unrstandg of the trans movement requir nontg somethg that, even though ’s not new — I mean, trans people are not new. We’ve had trans people our society for as long as we’ve had a society. But an articulatn of what genr is that the trans muny is articulatg, that requir a nontatn wh somethg new and unfaiar. And you have a choice then. Do you dive and try and really wrap your md around , or do you n screamg the oppose directn? I mean, I n’t remember his name, the ernor of Utah.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s Spencer Cox. It’s Spencer Cox.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right, who wrote that extraordary letter, explag why he was gog to veto the Utah anti-trans bill. I mean, that letter is — if people haven’t read , you have to read the whole thg. It will make you cry. It’s so ep. And ’s wrten by a Republin.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And as Cox poted out that letter, the number of people, of trans girls who want to pete women’s sports is mcule. I mean, ’s nothg. It’s like a ty actn. And so you have to ask yourself, am I willg to stroy the liv of thoands of trans girls over this pretend crisis which is not a crisis at all?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The most movg statement that letter was when he said, I don’t want the people to die. I want them to live.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, absolutely. But let me play back somethg om you, one of the characters “Angels,” Louis, go on a mi-rant about tolerance. Let’s hear a clip om the Natnal Theater productn. Louis played by Jam McArdle.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">jam mrdle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s jt liberalism, the worst kd of liberalism, really, Bourgeois tolerance. And what I thk is that what AIDS shows is the lims of tolerance, that ’s not enough to be tolerated, bee when the sh hs the fan, you fd out how much tolerance is worth, nothg. And unrneath all the tolerance is tense, passnate hatred.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So that was somethg to wre.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, he’s right. And —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, you wrote . You wrote .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">He’s also sayg to a Black drag queen who has some qutns about and also don’t need to hear sort of explaed to him the way that Louis is dog. But I don’t thk that what Louis is sayg is any way ntradictory to what I’m sayg. I mean, tolerance is, of urse, tolerable. Tolerance means that you accept a posn of a send class cizen, of a power imbalance. And you rely on the kdns of those power to let you go about your life.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And that is not actually what any kd of nstutnal mocracy n offer s cizens.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So what matters would be power then?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, power as always. Of urse, that’s the name of the game. I mean, ’s power. But you know, ’s the way that power is handled. What matters is equal protectn unr the law, the 14th Amendment, and everythg the Constutn that guarante a le of law and that everybody is treated equal unr the law the Uned Stat.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So do you thk that specific kd of tolerance has changed at all sce you first wrote “Angels?” That people still acquice to this?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, I thk that ’s always — I thk that there’s a paternalism. This is the nservative stance. You’re askg for too much. Everythg worked fe before. We didn’t bother you so much. You uld do the thgs you want to do.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Why so loud? Why so loud?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Why so loud? Why so upset? Why so angry? And that, aga, go back to what I was sayg earlier. If you start to thk for a mute why somebody would really re about marriage equaly or why somebody really would re about some sort of ntrol on police, you thk about what life is like for somebody who liv unr the kds of forms of opprsn.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And then you start to get to trouble if your whole worldview is predited on pretendg that everybody uld be happy if we jt left up to Donald Tmp to n thgs.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. It’s the sort of relyg on the kdns of strangers is not particularly good, to quote Blanche Du Bois and Tennsee Williams.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And “Angels Ameri,” Prr says to Hannah, I’ve always pend on the kdns of strangers. And she says, well, that’s a stupid thg to do. I actually love that le. But I mean, Tennsee was talkg about a glue that holds the human muny together that is, I thk, a polil issue. But ’s also other thgs as well.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Do you thk that glue is irrevobly broken at this pot? Bee —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— actually, the angrit people are not on the progrsive si, whether ’s the people’s nvoy or the tckers Canada or Rsell Brand on any given day or Joe Rogan. The angrit people are not on that si anymore, seems like. Or perhaps everybody’s angry. I don’t know.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, I mean, I thk there’s a plited anger on the left, on the progrsive si. I mean, prumably, people on the progrsive si of thgs believe the possibily of nstctg a more jt world. And that’s gog to take a lot of thkg as well as a lot of feelg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">For people who are sentially terted, I mean, a kd of nihilism right now, of jt tearg everythg down, those people don’t need anythg other than anger.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I absolutely do not thk that the bonds, what Lln lled the mystic chords of memory, the bonds of affectn that hold — that held the unn together, I don’t thk they’re broken irrevobly. I thk ’s always been the sort of secret of mocracy that pends on a kd of secular relign. And the relign is the unn.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, that was what Lln knew. That’s what ma him so immensely effective durg the Civil War. And for a long time, we’ve held on to an unrstandg of that. But the unn n only here if people are believg that what they’re promised the Declaratn is still possible, life, liberty, and the pursu of happs.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So you’re not worried about that?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, I didn’t say I’m not worried. I’m very, very worried about . I mean, mocraci are vulnerable. And they n agment.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be back a mute.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">If you like this terview and want to hear others, follow on your favore podst app. You’ll be able to tch up on “Sway” episos you may have missed, like my nversatn wh Andrew Garfield. And you’ll get new on livered directly to you. More wh Tony Khner after the break.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Let’s talk about the new adaptatn of “Wt Si Story.” Steven Spielberg was the director and apparently had to ax you to wrg the screenplay.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Y.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Talk about why you wanted to do this, bee you were workg on a lot of different thgs at the time.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, I love workg wh Steven. This was our third movie together.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, “Munich” and “Lln?”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">“Munich” was the first, “Lln” and then “Wt Si Story.” And now we’ve ma another one that will be openg this fall that we -wrote. I love workg wh him. I thk he’s — this is not a word — I don’t e the word geni very often. But I thk Steven is actually a geni. I thk that there’s a level of abily that is, certaly for me, pletely sort of awe-spirg and nfoundg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And he’s a mensch. I mean, he really r about thgs that I thk cent people need to re about.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Why did he pick this? You were workg on somethg else, right, that was more difficult?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, we were workg on a uple of thgs. And they’re not ad. But Steven lls the shots. We were workg on that part of . He cid he wanted to make “The Post” And then he felt very strongly after “The Post” that was time to make “Wt Si Story.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I thk probably, even though Puerto Rins are not immigrants to the Uned Stat bee they’re Amerin cizens, the xenophobia that was beg generated by this sort of gned up immigratn crisis that Tmp ran on and the sort of hioly terrible job all over the pla that untri are dog terms of takg re of migrant populatns, refugee populatns, I thk bothered him and upset him. And he’s always wanted to do “Wt Si Story.” And sudnly seemed him, this would be an tertg way to speak to this polil moment. I mean, I don’t know that he thks que that lerally. He has a gut stct. And his gut stct over and over aga has been pretty great.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. So somethg that stck me is that neher gang, the Sharks or the Jets had any real power. There’s an early scene when the police break up the fight and say their rivalry is potls.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">speaker 2</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I realize if any of you helps me out, you might spoil your chance to murr each other over ntrol of this earthly paradise.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">speaker 3</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Jets ntrol , and you know .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">speaker 2</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, yeah. But golly gee, Balkan, not acrdg to the New York Cy Commtee for Slum Clearance, which has cid to pull this whole hellmouth down to the bedrock. And you’re the way.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Can you talk about that? That was — you all brought that out much more so than the origal.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m very terted any kd of suatn where there’s a sort of zero-sum enomy.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So they’re fightg over nothg?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They’re fightg over nothg. And they’re fightg over nothg to the advantage of people who want them to fight over nothg. I mean, the blight of urban poverty was referred to, often by the Commtee for Slum Clearance, as a reason why we need to wipe out the neighborhoods and put up high-ris.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And there were people whose terts this served. And I mean, this is another Bertolt Brecht thg. He says the solidary of the opprsed for the opprsed is the world’s one hope. And I thk he’s right. If groups that are fightg for emancipatn, for liberatn, for an end to opprsn an end to racism, et cetera, don’t make mon e wh each other, if you’re a mory, you’re doomed. I mean, your only hope is to form muni wh other mori and fight for the liberatn of all.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, that moved me a lot. And I thk ’s herent the origal “Wt Si Story,” but not ma as explic.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Now, the movie got a good receptn. The box office was lighter than I thk you all expected. But Arianna DeBose won the Osr for Bt Supportg Actrs the role as Ana. She’s astonishg. The movie also got a Bt Picture nomatn. There were also crics, I know you’re aware of them, who argued they didn’t need the remake of “Wt Si Story.” And no amount of updatg uld save the story’s pictn of the Puerto Rin experience.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Do you thk the cricism is valid? I know The Tim had a piece.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">At least five or six The New York Tim.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So talk a ltle b about that.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t have any objectn to somebody dislikg work of me. I probably won’t agree wh them. But our “Wt Si Story” is very, very different om the 1961 film and the 1957 mil. It is absolutely regnizable. I don’t thk that the ‘61 film or the ‘57 mil actually remble what the people are claimg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I do not believe, I vehemently disagree wh anyone who says that the origal “Wt Si Story” is anti-Puerto Rin, that shows Puerto Rins as beg animalistic or knife-wieldg thugs. I mean, ’s nonsense. It’s jt lerally not te. Go read . You know — go look at the origal material.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And Bernste and Arthur Lrents and Stephen Sondheim, they were progrsive people. I mean, did they thk that the Sharks and the Jets were two exact sis of the same ? No. There’s nobody beg racist about whe people “Wt Si Story.” The racism is g om the Jets. It’s the Montagu-Capulet mol that’s created this misunrstandg about “Wt Si Story.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">My high school did an unfortunate pairg of the two one year where they did —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, that’s happened a lot.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, yeah, was unfortunate, I would say.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, Shakpeare tends that you don’t know the difference. The only way to remember which one which is that Juliet rhym wh Capulet bee his pot is this vlence is utterly meangls. It’s jt an old fd, whereas Bernste and Sondheim really wanted people to thk this is g bee of xenophobia. It has a e, you know.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Were mistak ma ‘57? Y. Were they rrectable whout dog a plete overhl of the material? I feel absolutely.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I n also say the thg that people always say and they shouldn’t say, which is, yeah, well, I know at least as many Puerto Rins, fact, you know, many, many, many, many, many multipl of Puerto Rin people who have told me that they loved “Wt Si Story.” They wept watchg our “Wt Si Story,” as have wrten Op-Ed piec The New York Tim. But anyway —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Did you worry about dog this? Bee you talk a lot about beg able to wre characters, even if you’re not a character, you’re not that person.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. I absolutely believe that one of the pleasur of art is that you get to go and hear the way another person has imaged people who are not like him, her, or themselv. Did Shakpeare really unrstand Jews the way that one would have hoped he did “Merchant of Venice?” Absolutely not.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Are there parts of “Merchant of Venice” that are anti-Semic? Y. Do I wish Shakpeare hadn’t wrten ? No.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I’m terted how the person that I would say is probably the greatt geni ever to put pen to paper — ’s tertg to me to see the limatns of his visn as well as his extraordary sight. So I know that what I’m seeg is a fictn created by somebody when I go to the theater or when I go to a movie, when I read a novel.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I know that this is not real. It’s pretend. And even when I watch a documentary, I know that documentari are, of urse, some ways, they’re artificial nstctns. You hope they’re tellg the tth, but you have to be a ltle skeptil about that as well. You always have to be skeptil about the tth. So my feelg is, you know, I absolutely thk that there is an enormo problem wh equaly of opportuny for screenwrers of lor, for women, for trans people. It’s much easier for a Jewish guy like me to get work than is for, let’s say, a Puerto Rin man or woman. But that problem is a problem wh enomics and a problem of employment practic and a problem of a termatn to make a more diverse and reprentative dtry.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But do you worry about thgs you uld wre, that you uld wre at all? Is that somethg you thk about?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You mean worry like should I not do ?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. If you had done anythg differently on that productn, for example, would you lookg back now wh “Wt Si Story?”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You know, actually wh “Wt Si Story,” no. I stand by my origal feelg that “Wt Si Story” is a great work of art. And I feel no shame whatsoever sayg that I love . And I thk was worth redog .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk you always have to ask yourself whether or not you are pable of unrstandg a suatn well enough to do a good job wrg . One of the nice thgs about beg a screenwrer or a playwright is that when I wre a character like Valenta, the character that Ra Moreno plays, Ra Moreno is gog to play that character. And I’m gog to listen, and Steven listens to what Ra Moreno has to say about that character.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">In my mil “Carole or Change,” the ma character is a Black woman 1963 the town that I grew up and Lake Charl, Louisiana. I was nervo as hell about wrg , of urse. I thk I did a really good job wh . I also knew that Gee C. Wolfe was gog to direct . Gee is Black, pletely brilliant man. And Tonya Pks, this credibly great actrs, was gog to play .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so I know that, you know, Tonya is gog to say, I don’t thk she would say this, or I don’t thk would happen this way. And Gee would say that, and they did. And I thk they would both say I rpond to that.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, I thk if I n jt say this, the really important thg is that we make sure that there are equal opportuni of employment. We should want an art that reprents the world, not jt one pot of view. And also, if I wre a Black character and you go to see , I want you to know that was wrten by a gay Jew. If I go to see a movie wh a Black character or a Puerto Rin character wrten by a Black person or a Puerto Rin person, I’m gog to know that that’s who wrote . And that’s gog to have an effect on how I look at .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Beg an dience requir work. It requir sophistitn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK. You’ve llaborated wh a ton wh Spielberg, as you said. But your late iend Larry Kramer said a few years ago that he’d wished you go back to wrg plays. I would agree wh him. When are you gog to e back to Broadway? What would take for you to do that?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I want to go back to wrg. I mean, I am workg on some plays. I’m a very slow wrer. And I’m workg right now on two miseri for televisn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s not a play.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I know. But I’m always workg on a play at the same time. So I have a uple of thgs that are procs. And I hope I’ll have one of them ready fairly soon. It may or may not be on Broadway. Broadway is only a small aspect of theater, of urse.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right, obvly. But theater — do jt not tert you as much, the theatril experience?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, no, theater is my first — athetilly speakg, my first love. And ’s what I really should be dog.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So why aren’t you? Only bee I was a beat reporter. And I don’t do that anymore. And I don’t want to do anymore. I don’t like . Everyone’s like, you should do that. You’re so good at . I’m like, I don’t want to. I want to do this or somethg else. So what’s happened here is that you don’t —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You know, for all sorts of reasons, I got terted wrg film. And I found somebody that I really loved wrg film wh. But I’ve always had this nightmarish image of stg by a pool L.A. sayg, I’m g back to the theater next year, and then I drop ad, and I never have done that. I really want to.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You’re not stg by a pool right now, right?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m really not. I’m my apartment New York, dyg of dt allergi, bee I have too many books.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So what play would you wre? People are wantg a play om you. Is the Tmp play? It’s been a uple of years.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m workg on the Tmp play. It keeps changg and changg and changg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Is a Tmp play, or you’re jt gog to ll the Tmp play? Is about Tmp?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s not — well, I won’t say anythg more about . It’s fely about the fay and sort of about Tmp. But keeps beg about other thgs.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, he is about other thgs, isn’t he? He’s not about jt —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Y, he is.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But you want to exame him? Bee one of the thgs you said about “Angels Ameri” was, I don’t know if that kd of work is bt done as an immediate rponse. Obvly, many people were very emotnal durg the Tmp era. Do you thk you need more time? Or is there a theme g out of this, of the Tmp era?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, yeah. I mean, well, what he’s done, I mean, his entire — not Tmp himself, but to an extent Tmp himself and then everyone around him, I mean, the are bottom-feers who vote enormo amounts of time and some telligence and vast rourc to fdg all the weak spots Amerin mocracy. I mean, so a time like that, mocracy is thrown up to a crisis. I mean, this is somethg that many people have said. But when Lln says the Gettysburg Addrs, foursre and seven years ago, our forefathers brought forth to this ntent a new natn nceived liberty and dited to the proposn that all men are created equal, ’s a proposn. And ’s always the se that mocracy, like theater and like art, mocracy liv a state of crisis. And we’ve been thrown to a profound crisis.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So is there a name? Do you have a name for the play?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I do have a great name for , but I n’t tell you.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Come on! What is ?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, would give away.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Really?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Y.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You have such long nam for your plays. Is this long?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, this is jt one sgle word. But would give away too much.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, really?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Y.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">When do you image beg mounted?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t know. Don’t ask me that.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, don’t do miseri. Stop wh the mishegos.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">tony khner</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Why don’t you go back to beat reportg, you’re so great at ?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sway is a productn of New York Tim Opn ’s produced by Nayeema Raza, Blakely Schick, Daphne Chen, Cal O’Keefe and Wyatt Orme wh origal mic by Isaac Jon, mixg by Sonia Herrero and Carole Sabourd and fact-checkg by Adam Schival and Kate Sclair. Special thanks to Shannon Bta, Krist L and Krista Samulewski. The senr edor of Sway is Nayeema Raza, and the executive producer of New York Tim Opn d is Irene Noguchi.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">If you’re a podst app already, you know how to get your podsts, so follow this one. If you’re listeng on The Tim webse and want to get each new episo of “Sway” livered to you poolsi L.A., download any podst app, then search for “Sway” and follow the show. We release every Monday and Thursday. Thanks for listeng.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC]</p></dd></dl></div></div></div></div><div style="posn:absolute;width:0;height:0;visibily:hidn;display:none"></div><hear class="css-1vwfk9f" data-breakpot=""><div style="width:100%" data-ttid="flt-layout"><div style="background-image:url()" class="css-18qqsen e1llfg0"><div class="css-1hmsypo e1llfg2"><div class="css-131hid3 e1llfg3"><div class="css-1uhi299 e1llfg1"></div><div class="css-1tloyb6"><div class="css-1kltdsh ehra6vc0"><a href=" class="css-2ne0py"><span class="css-1f76qa2"><img alt="Sway logo" src="><span>Sway</span></span></a></div></div><div class="css-1r0dpua e1llfg4"><div class="css-1gu519p edye5kn0"><div><h1 class="css-1xbyom1 edye5kn2">Tony Khner on the Republin ‘Fantasy’ of a Natn Controlled by ‘Straight Whe Men’ </h1><h2 class="css-rlih edye5kn3">The playwright discs the recent wave of anti-L.G.B.T.Q. polici and how far the untry has — or hasn’t — e sce the AIDS epimic.</h2></div><span class="css-lsnb14 edye5kn4"></span><button type="button" class="css-w62hzm" aria-haspopup="te" aria-label="Show Aud Transcript"><div class="css-1vd84sn"><svg xmlns=" width="24" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 20" fill="#F8F8F8"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M0 0H24V20H0V0ZM3 7H21V9H3V7ZM21 11H3V13H21V11ZM3 15H21V17H3V15ZM11 3H3V5H11V3Z" fill="#F8F8F8"></path></svg><span class="css-16bt4xd">Transcript</span></div></button></div><div class="css-1g7y0i5 e1drnplw0"><button tabx="100" class="css-1rtlxy" type="button" aria-label="close"><svg width="60" height="60" viewBox="0 0 60 60" fill="none"><circle cx="30" cy="30" r="30" fill="whe" fill-opacy="0.9"></circle><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M38.4844 20.1006L39.8986 21.5148L21.5138 39.8996L20.0996 38.4854L38.4844 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M21.5156 20.1006L20.1014 21.5148L38.4862 39.8996L39.9004 38.4854L21.5156 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path></svg></button><div class="css-rdbib0 e1drnplw1"></div><div class="css-18ow4sz e1drnplw2"><div aria-labelledby="modal-tle" role="regn"><hear class="css-1bzlfz"><div class="css-mln36k" id="modal-tle">transcript</div><button type="button" class="css-1igvuto"><div class="css-f40pzg"></div><span>Back to Sway</span></button><div class="css-f6lhej" data-ttid="transcript-playback-ntrols"><div class="css-1ialerq"><button tabx="99" type="button" class="css-1t9gw" aria-label="play"><svg xmlns=" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M8 13.7683V6L14.5 9.88415L8 13.7683Z" fill="var(--lor-ntent-sendary,#363636)"></path><circle cx="10" cy="10" r="9.25" stroke="var(--lor-stroke-primary,#121212)" stroke-width="1.5"></circle></svg></button><div class="css-1701swk"><svg xmlns=" viewBox="0 0 40 36" id="el_0kpS9qL_S"><tle>bars.