bars</tle><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_65hRV2Qwn" class="css-1fxvzwo" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_ILVvi2tqx" class="css-1wnday1" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC"><rect x="34" width="6" height="36" id="el_qw_T_tngXw"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_p_9Pm85Ac" class="css-fwki7z" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_WxG3R40yd" class="css-t3i5e6" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU"><rect x="22.67" width="6" height="36" id="el_lf9GrROk6j"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_kYNRGDfcw" class="css-t9te0w" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_3c3bzSjOJ" class="css-1r5375t" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw"><rect x="11.33" width="6" height="36" id="el_-iueO8klO0"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_y_fKcpSxn" class="css-qknaag" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_R6bNB6_Ys" class="css-1vd04" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC"><rect width="6" height="36" id="el_dS5TKNZZ5w"></rect></g></g></g></svg></div><div><div class="css-1t7yl1y">0:00<!-- -->/<!-- -->33:12</div><div class="css-og85jy">-<!-- -->33:12</div></div></div></div></hear><div class="css-uzyn7p"><div class="css-1vxyw"><p class="css-1nng8z9">transcript</p><h2 class="css-9wqu2x">Why Facebook’s ‘Hubris and Arrogance’ Astound This Attorney General</h2><h4 class="css-qsd3hm">Attorney General Mra Healey of Massachetts weighs on social media, the Sacklers and Florida’s “Don’t Say Gay” bill.</h4><time dateTime="2022-03-28T09:00:09.000Z" class="css-1e605">2022-03-28T05:00:09-04:00</time></div><dl class="css-p98d0w"><dt class="css-xx7kwh"></dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">(SINGING) When you walk the room, do you have sway?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m Kara Swisher, and you’re listeng to “Sway.” My gut today is Massachetts Attorney General Mra Healey. Like me, she’s a feisty lbian who lik takg on big power players. Whether ’s her 100 lawsus agast the Tmp admistratn, her cisn to hold the Sacklers personally acuntable for the opid crisis or ongog vtigatns to the impact of Meta and TikTok on kids, Healey is hopg the ws will put her on track for a new job — ernor. She’s clared her ndidacy the Bay state’s 2022 race.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I wanted to ask Healey, a Democrat, how she n w a state that’s mostly gone for Republin ernors recent years and whether she thks she’s achieved enough jtice her A.G. job. But first, I wanted to dig to a topic that’s close to both of our hearts — the clampdown on the rights of the L.G.B.T.Q.+ muny red stat. A note that my voice was a ltle worse when we taped this terview.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mra Healey, wele to “Sway.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Kara, great to be wh you.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I wanted to talk to you about Florida right now. It’s obvly personal to me, I have four children. Nott bee we live Florida, but unr Florida’s parental rights tn bill, which opponents have lled the Don’t Say Gay bill, teachers and staff would be prohibed om talkg about sexual orientatn and genr inty wh kids elementary school. So talk about the e of this argument for parental rights, which has been ed several tim before and a lot by the G.O.P.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, ’s a se. Let’s ll what is. It’s an effort to weaponize people’s sort of fear. There’s a lot of misrmatn. I thk as a member of the gay muny, for a long time now, we’ve seen our muny ed as polil footballs. So that’s what’s gog on here. But is hurtful. It is discrimatory agast L.G.B.T.Q. kids. And here we have ernors like Ron DeSantis and Greg Abbott Texas takg backwards on the backs of our trans kids, of our L.G.B.T.Q. muny, of women, right? Bee look at what they’ve also done wh accs to abortn.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And what I say to people is, you n talk the talk about equaly, but ’s about where you put your money, too. I have a lot of iends who vatn Florida, who spend time Florida. I unrstand that, Kara, but I thk people need to take a hard look at what’s gog on right now and ci, is this where I’m gog to spend my money?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Listen, I took my nference out of Florida. I had a nference there this Febary. I’m not dog aga. It’s one thg to say that and say ’s a wrong thg, but ’s workg, this effective argument for parental rights. Talk a ltle b about what they’re tryg om a legal pot of view if you are fightg and whether you would.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, I thk you have to fight both legally, but you also have to fight the urt of public opn, and you really have to ll out the misrmatn for what is. So I thk legally, for those of stat where we have strong anti-discrimatn laws on the books, let’s make sure that we are enforcg them.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Let’s make sure that we are jog together wh enti like the U.S. Department of Jtice challengg some of the efforts, bee, aga, this gets to attacks on L.G.B.T.Q. kids on the basis of their sexual inty, their sexual orientatn, their genr inty. And so that rais ser civil rights issu. I mean, image Florida, you’re now gog to be llg on folks to sue school districts for takg steps to protect the abily of a young person to learn a healthy environment. That’s terferg wh your accs to tn, and ’s terferg wh your right as a parent to look after and provi for the well-beg of your child.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And also allows parents to sue. I mean, when you look at , you mt go, huh, smart.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, you’re not smart bee look at Texas and S.B. 8. So one of the thgs that the legislators Texas did was to e up wh this law that’s basilly created a bounty hunter system and said, private cizens, you’re gog to be allowed to sue people who you know who are providg abortn. And they’re dog the same thg. I mean, ’s really sick, right, bee we see the chillg effect that those lawsus have.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So how do you ph back on ?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You sue. You sue. And I know that I will jo wh others urt, lawsus, support of lawsus challengg the really unnstutnal and discrimatory laws. And while that works s way through the system, we really have to fight and change the urt of public opn. So I also appeal to the bs muny this time to be clear about where they stand. And I know there’s a risk dog that. But, you know, we’ve got to fight the urts, urt of public opn, and we’ve also got to fight the boardrooms.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, you saw Disney not phg back and then phg back later, a ltle too late, which was, I thk, a real sta for them. But are you surprised after you did this marriage equaly law a long time ago? Are you surprised this is back?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Am I surprised? No. Am I surprised, after the Tmp years and all that we wnsed? Sadly, I’m not surprised. It’s where we are right now this untry. I have fah this untry. But people have really got to, I thk, start speakg up and standg up for one another.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Is there a risk of losg marriage equaly?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t thk so. I mean, I thk that what we know the last 10 years, the last five years, people are ed to , right?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, so is Roe v. Wa.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, yeah, that is te. That is te. But I thk that marriage equaly is more secure than actually accs to safe and legal abortn. It sadns me. I mean, both should be rpected and affirmed unr the law, but I’m pretty nfint, given where we are wh fai and how marriage equaly has been more stutnalized and normalized across so many stat, that that is here.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s tertg. So I qutn if marriage equaly will stick. I don’t know why. I jt have this feelg. I’m sorry, are you married?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, no, I haven’t been married, but I’m proud to support those who are and certaly work to try to do my part to support marriage equaly.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, but you’ve had a longtime partner, rrect?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I had, y.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, you did, OK. Yeah, I’ve been married twice, so I do a lot of gay marryg for everybody else. So I want to n through a number of areas you’ve had some tractn as attorney general Massachetts, gog after Purdue Pharma, your vtigatns to big tech, and your take on Tmp. So let’s start wh the Sacklers and the opid crisis.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And you were the first attorney general to go after the Sackler fay. In 2021, a settlement was reached for the Sacklers to pay $4.5 billn, but not adm guilt. You rejected an earlier settlement proposal and really phg for admissn of wrongdog om the fay. But you seemed to change your md on that. When did you ci, OK, this is probably the bt we’re gog to get? And I’ll talk about the new settlement a mute.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, was jt that. I mean, after several years of vtigatn ligatn, I thought that we had gotten what we uld and the kd of reckong that we need unr the extent of the law. Now I would have liked the Sacklers to go to jail. I would have liked the U.S. Department of Jtice not to ntue to cut als wh that fay and allow them to ntue on. That didn’t happen.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But when I started as attorney general, I said to my team, we’re gog to sue the Sacklers. We’re gog to name nam bee that’s the only way there’ll be acuntabily. And then what my team did that hadn’t been done before is we spent two years wh subpoenas, vtigatns. And we filed the plat, Kara, that basilly told the whole story of what they did. I was clear I wanted all the documents to be produced and ma available onle a public reposory of documents, all the emails, the memos, everythg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">To show what they had done.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right, bee at the end of the day, no amount of money that you were gog to rever was ever gog to be enough to rtore what happened to fai victimized by the Sacklers. So we shut down the bs. They had to pay up not all of what they ma, but a substantial amount of what they ma. And I hope that the Jtice Department serly nsirs reopeng this and pursug crimal charg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, let me ask you. I mean, this is all money. $6 billn, a lot of money, the new settlement. Still, they still have a lot of money, first of all. And they’re not admtg guilt. And no one’s gog to jail. Can there be jtice whout that?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They n say, look — and I’ve teracted wh different dividual Sacklers. And I mean, they’re cel, heartls, credibly selfish. I don’t know where that myopic narcissism om. But ’s there. So I don’t re what they say. They n ny, but the documents speak for themselv. And I thk we have told the story of what they did. And that’s why you see their nam g off buildgs. People don’t want to have that associatn wh them anymore.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All right, so there’s no way — the Jtice Department is the only way this is gog to happen. Do you thk there’s a se?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk there’s a se. I thk there’s a se and somebody should try to make . I mean, unfortunately, what happened years ago is that two different Jtice Departments allowed the Sacklers to e wh their attorneys and basilly buy their way out of crimal prosecutns through the payment of f.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And that isn’t acceptable to me. I did what I uld as an attorney general. It was the first time the Sacklers as dividuals had ever been named a lawsu. And I thk that took a lot of people by surprise. But was enough? Is enough for those fai and what they did? No.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All right, speakg of rporatns or lears who ped acuntabily, you recently lnched an vtigatn to TikTok and Meta on nsumer protectn grounds. Can you expla your approach? Obvly, an issue near and ar to my heart, although I thk they have other bigger problems than the issu around kids, but why don’t you talk about what you’re dog there?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, I uld not agree wh you more. And you know, I’ll say at the outset, ’s not that I don’t e to this wh an appreciatn for tech the dtry and what enabl. I also thk has pletely taken over and n amok. And there hasn’t been a good way to al wh . And you’re right, there are all sorts of issu. The one particular that you mentned was an vtigatn by a number of to the ways which Meta, Facebook, and TikTok were specifilly signg the platform and manipulatg to get as many young people watchg for as long as possible, when there have been studi showg a nnectn between that and anxiety, suicidaly, body image and the like.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so we vtigated to get to the bottom of bee ’s really sort of as a nsumer matter. Well, hey, if you’re makg a product and you eher sign or you know that the way which you signed is gog to harm a nsumer, then you’re answerable for that. And so we’re tryg to get answers to that.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">A lot of people thk there’s not enough rearch yet. There’s signs potg to y, but not foolproof. And more rearch is need. What have you found so far?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, I’ll disappot you. I n’t talk about matters that are unr vtigatn. What I will say is that we are aggrsively pursug this. And you know, this is an stance where you see Republins and Democrats g together to look at this issue bee we get plats om parents all of our stat about the screen time. So ’s the sign, you know, of this and the platform and the ways which they have been g and unrstandg their own data and algorhms, and the effect that’s havg and then what they’re dog wh that rmatn. So we’re gog to ntue to go through wh that. And we’ll see where that tak .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">How operative has the pani been?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They’re not operative.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Meang not at all.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, they’re operative to a certa extent, but I thk they all know how to slow-walk thgs. They know how to bury public tert law firms and state enforcement offic wh lots of documents, lots of obftn. I mean, this has been the le.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I get , tech has never wanted ernment lookg at them. And but I have to say that over the years, the level of hubris and arrogance, particularly on the part of Facebook, has really astound me. They’ll e at you and try to sell you wh ias of ways which they’re helpg out and advancg all this good.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I thk a ltle b of is they look at all as sort of like ill-rmed Ludd, right? That we surely possibly uldn’t unrstand their world. So I thk there’s a ltle b of that attu that they don’t take serly and figure they n jt stall and lay and market their way out of this. And I thk that Facebook is realizg that may not be the se, but we jt want the problem fixed. You know what I mean?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, they’re tryg right now wh Ukrae to try to have a better pot of view, I gus, and beg helpful and then phg on Rsia. But here, they certaly obfte. That’s somethg I’ve enuntered.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, yeah, that’s all well and good. I thk ’s important. I also saw what they didn’t do 2016 and the rults of that. And I saw what they did do all the way through the surrectn and ntug to allow the promulgatn of misrmatn, disrmatn, electn niers, right, that are, right at this time, so anti-mocratic and puttg people harm’s way and at risk. So I’m glad, you know, they’ve had an awakeng, or they’re g their platform to do somethg that is nstctive. But I gus, also, what that illtrat, Kara, is they’ve known all along how to do this. They chose not to do .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Do you thk you have any power, really? Bee so far, La Khan let the MGM merger go bee she didn’t have enough power wh her own Feral Tra Commissn. Attorney generals do this. There’s attorney generals on the Google se. They’re on the Facebook se. Amazon will e unr scty, obvly, Apple. Do you all have power pared to the tech pani, really, om a legal pot of view?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’re gog to fd out. I thk we do. I mean, I thk we put together some strong s, and we’ll see how the ligatns go. Some of this is untted, right? I mean, that’s part of . Some of the thgs have not been tted yet. And so they have to get before a urt. And then we’ll see whether or not laws need to change. I mean, I thk laws need to change. I thk that we need to, this untry, jt unrstand.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And those of ernment, the state and the feral level, need to unrstand that platforms really — they n our liv. It’s the way which people receive their news and rmatn. It’s the way they accs tn, healthre now, fancial servic. And so there has to be some effort to make sure that certa prcipl that we’ve always sort of lived by this untry that have been important to market enomy and the like, are kept place as we see, you know, the evolutn and technology and the move to the platforms.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So your vtigatn of TikTok, is that different? Is a different vtigatn, or is along the same l?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s siar to the Facebook vtigatn. We first sent subpoenas out to Facebook a while ago. And siarly, we’ve done that wh TikTok.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Is a different suatn, given the Che ownership? Are you ncerned about that?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’re not ncerned about . And TikTok, we know to be particularly more prevalent among young people right now than Facebook. I mean, that’s where, God knows, a week or two, will move on to another enty. But ’s jt to say that’s where the actn is at.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Is that pany more operative?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk they’ve been better than Facebook.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But everybody’s been better than Facebook, to be hont.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, OK.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That sounds about right.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But there’s still time. There’s still time for Meta to e forward and operate.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You wa by that phone. I’m sure they’ll do . I’m sure they’ll be llg soon.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, we’ll see them urt the meantime. [MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be back a mute.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">If you like this terview and want to hear others, follow on your favore podst app. You’ll be able to tch up on “Sway” episos you may have missed, like my nversatn wh Patrick Radn Keefe, and you’ll get new on livered directly to you. More wh Mra Healey after the break.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So you’ve brought dozens of s agast the Tmp admistratn on immigratn, tn, ntraceptn and more. A lot of the are jt performative, rrect? Or were you really gog for somethg?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, we were — I strongly reject the premise of that qutn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All right, OK.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We saw him try to take away healthre, try to take away ntraceptn, go after immigrant muni, cut off SNAP benefs, stute the travel ban, which, here Massachetts, meant that a lot of our pani, our universi, didn’t have stunts or profsors or workers who were able to return to the Uned Stat of Massachetts to work.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It was jt like every week, he was dog somethg harmful, rollg back important environmental regulatns that have been put place to al wh greenhoe gas, tkerg wh the cens, which would have had the effect of cuttg off feral fundg to our stat.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So yeah, we sued him probably over 100 tim, based on thgs he had done that were illegal, unnstutnal and hurtful to our rints or bs of the like. And you know what? We won nearly 85 percent of those s. We went to urt, we got orrs to block him. And blockg him, that was important bee was a way to stop bad thgs om happeng. It was sort of sad that we had to be nstantly gog to urt, but we were succsful and was absolutely necsary to hold the le until he left office.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It was largely Democratic attorney generals who were dog this together as a group, rrect?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s right, and unfortunately, we uldn’t get Republin attorney generals wh . It jt is, you know — ’s sad, and I’ve worked well wh many Republin lleagu, but I thk a lot of them were aaid to jo, aaid of Tmp, aaid of retaliatn, and really gettg the you know what kicked out of them, jt for standg up and dog the right thg and applyg the le of law.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So he’s beg vtigated for both crimal and civil s or s vtigatns New York, though there’s some problems the crimal one — Geia, Washgton, D.C. Which of the s do you thk is most important?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, the are hard s, and I’d say the most blatant crimal se is the se that district attorney Geia is handlg. Remember when Tmp picks up the phone and basilly tells somebody to change the rults of the electn and obstcts jtice the procs. So that, to me, is jt credibly clear cut terms of a crimal actn. But I hope that the vtigators and the prosecutors stay wh all of this and all that matters for purpos of gettg at the tth. When that happens, Kara, and how that happens, we’ll see.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Tmp don’t do email or texts. He jt tweets, or he gets on the phone. People don’t flip on him, except for Michael Cohen, who has issu. How difficult is that when you’re tryg to prosecute someone?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, ’s hard when you don’t have that smokg gun. But most s, you don’t have a smokg gun, and that’s why tak time. You know, tak several months. It may take years to build an vtigatn. And some of that is buildg rmatn om people who worked for him, showg and exposg their culpabily, gettg them to flip. And so, you know, this is the way often works crimal vtigatns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Do you expect that anythg uld happen legally that would prevent Tmp om seekg a send term?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Absolutely. I mean, I thk any number of thgs uld happen, cludg his prosecutn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, but he’s Teflon. Is there anythg such as legal Teflon? This guy is sort of ttg that theory, isn’t he?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, he is. And unfortunately, he spawned this movement where now you have the lik of a Marjorie Taylor Greene and others out there jt like — that’s part of the problem for the Republin Party. It’s like the party has jt lost ntrol of self. And how do you al wh the vtig of Tmp that play out day to day and the lik of those dividuals?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right, well, speakg of Republins, there’s been a lot of them nng Massachetts. In fact, almost always, except for Deval Patrick. Is there a benef to havg a morate Republin such a state? Obvly, Baker is que beloved. So is Romney, a lot of ways.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So this probably isn’t gog to surprise you, but I thk all l are out the wdow at this pot. I thk that this time, what people are lookg for is somebody they know who’s gog to listen to them and to really get thgs done. I thk that’s what people are lookg for ernment lears.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All right, the WGBH reporter Adam Reilly noted, “As the mpaign ramps up, expect Republins and maybe even some of Healey’s Democratic opponents to acce Healey of gog easier on the state’s overwhelmgly Democratic polil tablishment than she should have.” This is one of the issu wh voters, why they tend to vote a Republin ernor an overwhelmgly Democratic polil tablishment.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk ’s a ltle b different. I probably put that wh a Democratic majory legislature, which has been the se here for a long time, ’s often offered as a reason that Republin ernors ually get elected, albe very morate Republin ernors, like a Bill Weld or Charlie Baker, our current ernor. It’s to be a sort of a check of the legislature. I thk a difference for me, Kara, is, I’m g at this as the attorney general.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I have tablished myself credibly wh voters here Massachetts as somebody who has never been aaid to stand up to a powerful tert, to take on a tough problem. So I thk at the end of the day, you know, I thk that there’s a lot of support and regnn for, ’s a lot of the bread and butter stuff that we do, helpg somebody wh their stunt loan, gog after the nursg home that did not treat their mother well, and she died. It’s protectg workers, protectg nsumers, protectg stunts and workg wh ernment.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, one Republin ntenr for the ernorship, Geoff Diehl, is somebody who lost var state ns before. He’s nng agast another Republin, Chris Doughty, I thk the primary. Leavg asi the attorney general’s curse, which people Boston tend to like to wre about that a lot, I’m gog to move away om that, and might have somethg to do wh some wall you have, a baseball wall there, too, that’s green, the Green Monster, rrect?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">There’s curs everywhere all over Boston.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, no attorney general has ever bee ernor the state of Massachetts om attorney general.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What is the appeal of those Republin ndidat? Do you thk is that, to hold the legislature to acunt? It seems to love G.O.P ernors and love s Democratic tablishment.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, I’ll tell you what this race is like. This race uld not be more clear. The fellow on the other si is a — saw a long time ago, Tmp’s endorsement, and basilly is nng on a Tmp agenda. I mean, that is not where this state needs to be terms of lookg after our rints. You knw, lleg and universi, our life scienc, our btech, our high tech, our ftech, this don’t jive, you know what I mean, wh where we are.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So they don’t want a Tmper. They like a Mt Romney. They like a Charlie Baker, that kd of thg. This guy is very much Tmp — he seems to be Tmp Le and more like Glenn Youngk?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t know. I mean, he may try to pat himself that way. But I know what he is. And he brought on Corey Lewandowski, and they’re off and nng. But I know people the state were pretty happy wh the efforts of my office over the last many years fightg Tmp urts succsfully. I had people om all polil strip e up and thank me for dog that work. So I don’t thk Tmp sells here Massachetts, but we’ll see. I’ve got my race to n.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So answer this qutn. Ben Downg, a former state senator, recently said, quote, “I don’t thk any of have a clear answer for, on day one, Governor Healey do what.” Can you give me a specific?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Um, I thk people know —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">This should be easy.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, I mean, hontly, I don’t thk anybody’s nfed here Massachetts about my policy posns. I’ve been livg and breathg and takg them over the last seven years, 15 years, really, if you go back to my time as head of the Civil Rights Divisn. So what I am gog to make sure we do, Kara, as I thk any good C.E.O. of a state needs to do, is to be ready to roll, day one. There are a whole bunch of thgs that need to happen that I’m lookg forward to workg on and really —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All right, n you give me a specific? I’m gog to go Katie Couric on you. Specifilly, what do you —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, my God. Hontly, there are so many, OK? But —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Give me one. Come on, throw me a bone.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All right, I thk the first thg will be havg great teams, you know, place and diverse learship, reprentg a diversy of lived experience. A ernor gets to appot 4,000 people, gets to tablish and set up agenci. Who ns those agenci, what they look like, that is credibly important. That’s a day one rponsibily.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Climate, I’ve talked about what we need to do wh climate here terms of settg up and mornizg our grid. We’re buildg a lot of wd off the shore here Massachetts. And we’ve got to make sure that we have a Department of Public Utili that’s workg on ways to brg that energy across the state, pecially right now as people are facg really hard hs when to electricy and heatg bills. So those are jt — I mean, there are, as I say, hundreds of day one actns. But I thk what people are really lookg for is tst somebody. And so ’s been fun for me to get out and talk to people. It’s been two years. You know, a lot of people —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What is their biggt ncern? What do they want om Governor Healey then?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They want to know that Governor Healey is gog to look after their fay, their kids’ well-beg. I’ve had so many people —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So abily to do what? An executive actn to do what? Give them?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Invt mental healthre.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You talk to parents right now our state, I n’t tell you the number of fai who are alg wh difficulty accsg mental health servic. We’ve got kids who have suffered real fics the classroom bee of not beg school the last uple of years. Parents want to know how are we gog to make up to our young people and get them to where they need to be. And poundg that, we’ve got a lot of young people alg wh real mental health issu, people generally alg wh mental health issu. And ’s bee a mpaign prry for me terms of fixg that and creasg accs to mental health.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The other thg they’re worried about is child re right now bee a lot of women here have not been able to return to the workforce bee child re is $15,000, $20,000 a year. And ’s jt too expensive for people to go back. And the third thg, I n tell you — you n talk to any kd of pany here. The third thg that they’re worried about right now Massachetts — I don’t know if ’s this way California or elsewhere — workforce. We’ve got a lot of jobs available, but we haven’t matched skills and upskillg to align wh jobs that are available here today. That’s a big worry for a lot, a lot of people right now. So those are three thgs.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Those are specific, thank you. I appreciate . All right, I’m gog to ask you a basketball qutn at the last mute, spe my distaste of sports. I ll sports ball. My son is an excellent basketball player, by the way. I have to go to gam all the time. And I go, oh, look, the ball’s movg around. Anyway, you were once a pro basketball player. Apparently, you’re que good, at pecially — you’re not very tall. You’re like 5’4, is that rrect?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, I was a ltle pot guard.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Which is lerally a pro basketball player is the most lbian thg ever, by the way. Any lsons om that as you n be? You said once, “Tly strong women make each other better when they work as a team, when they’re not aaid to fail, when the rponse to an opponent or a bad ll by a ref is jt to fight back harr.” Do that still unt? Is there any lson you learned, both negative and posive, om beg a basketball player?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All posive. I mean, hontly, playg team sports, pecially for women, was fantastic. You learn about teamwork and rilience and disciple, all those thgs as a pot guard. So jt bee — I know you don’t re about basketball, but —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I re a ltle b.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You re a ltle b? You see what the pot guard is? They’re sort of like the —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sort of, vaguely.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They’re like the quarterback. They brg the ball up. The first thg they have to do is to be able to handle prsure. And then your job, your greatt statistic is not srg pots. Your greatt statistic is actually what’s lled an assist, makg pass, makg plays, so that others n sre. And, you know, that’s kd of who I am and my vibe. Like, how do we do this together as a team? How do we build a team? Bee you n have the most unbelievable players on a team, but I would take a better team playg together over dividual stars any day of the week. And that’s part of what I try to do my work as A.G. and office.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right, yeah. Anyway, I really appreciate this. Thank you so much for talkg about basketball and all the goals you make. That’s what I said at the game last night, and my son was jt horrified and repulsed by me, which is about average for a 16-year-old.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, isn’t that normal wh any mom?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk yellg goal at my son’s basketball game was probably a problem. I’m pretty certa. Anyway, I wish you good luck, and we’ll see what happens November.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">mra healey</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Great to be wh you. Thanks for havg me on.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">“Sway” is the productn of New York Tim Opn. It’s produced by Nayeema Raza, Blakeney Schick, Daphne Chen, Cal O’Keefe and Wyatt Orme, wh origal mic by Isaac Jon; mixg by Sonia Herrero and Carole Sabourd; and fact-checkg by Kate Sclair, Michelle Harris and Mary Marge Locker. Special thanks to Shannon Bta, Krist L and Krista Samulewski. The senr edor of “Sway” is Nayeema Raza, and the executive producer of New York Tim Opn d is Irene Noguchi.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">If you’re listeng on The Tim webse and want to get each new episo of “Sway” livered to you, along wh Healey’s explanatns of all the other basketball posns, which I don’t re about at all, download any podst app, then search for “Sway,” and follow the show. We release every Monday and Thursday. 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*BEAR-MAGAZINE.COM* KARA SWISHER GAY

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article__ntent-hear"><div data-ttid="ContentHearContaer" class="ContentHearContaer-cGKRbE knDxNq"><div class="ContentHearHedAccredatnWrapper-GFiQf cDNVlV"><div data-ttid="ContentHearTleBlockWrapper" class="ContentHearTleBlockWrapper-cjmSKp ikebRK"><div data-ttid="ContentHearRubric" class="ContentHearRubricBlock-LmpbT hjnEYM"><div data-ttid="ContentHearRubricDateBlock" class="ContentHearRubricDateBlock-kAQcZP fTFWxD"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX iJOI bric ContentHearRubricContaer-eTudtt edKnIL"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Media</span></div></div><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX iJOI bric ContentHearRubricIssueDate-CuIT fFtVss"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">april 2023 Issue</span></div></div><h1 data-ttid="ContentHearHed" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ ContentHearHed-NCyCC iUEiRd khNpd gydgrM">“I’ll Walk Away From Anythg”: Kara Swisher Calls the Shots</h1><span class="ContentHearContentDivir-liIxwf eicslv"></span></div><div class="ContentHearAccredatn-lfctVB etVsnJ ntent-hear__accredatn" data-ttid="ContentHearAccredatn"><div class="ContentHearDek-bIqFFZ fYeNbg">The ultimate media sir is jugglg podsts, wrg a memoir, and textg wh “half the pla.” (“She has a ffee <em>before bed,</em>” says Ben Smh.) Swisher opens up to <em>Vany Fair</em> about her reer, cludg leavg <em>The New York Tim,</em> and laments journalists’ lack of bs savvy. “If you don’t unrstand the enomics of what’s happeng,” she says, “you’re fucked.”</div><div class="ContentHearByle-kmPyCa emiglw"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW jvZaPI rponsive-asset ContentHearContributorImage-cvjZXn epCAJC"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa ContentHearContributorImage-cvjZXn epCAJC rponsive-image"><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 80w" siz="66px"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 90w" siz="66px"/><img alt="" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></picture></span><div class="ContentHearByleContent-dpPmNn DRFq"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl ContentHearByl-cZqgyJ bHLeKI"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH jqYyWD byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span><a class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM ByleLk-gEnFiw iUEiRd kIEUAJ lddgzd eErqIx byle__name-lk button" href="/ntributor/charlotte-kle">Charlotte Kle</a></span></span></p></div><time data-ttid="ContentHearPublishDate" dateTime="2023-03-28T06:00:00-04:00" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ ContentHearPublishDate-eIBicG iUEiRd bSlZUC cmPkTr">March 28, 2023</time></div></div></div></div><div class="ContentHearLeadAsset-hGbumP dDDxdb lead-asset ContentHearLeadAssetWrapper-hfXHEc Grck" data-ttid="ContentHearLeadAsset"><figure class="ContentHearLeadAssetContent-kOfYSG dRGWbI"><div class="ContentHearLeadAssetContentMedia-bLEIpi jjhWdS lead-asset__ntent__photo"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW jvZaPI rponsive-asset ContentHearRponsiveAsset-bREgIb hONbnm"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz gOkWog"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa ContentHearRponsiveAsset-bREgIb hONbnm rponsive-image"><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w, 960w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w, 960w, 1280w, 1600w, 1920w, 2240w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Kara Swishers nbspstare n make nbspCEOs squirm. Lovelys is pretty good too." class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></picture></div></div></span><div class="CaptnWrapper-jSZdqE kIXbGQ ptn ContentHearLeadAssetCaptn-hPWmSN gFWya-d"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ CaptnText-bHjzlu iUEiRd hBkROF iXWezO ptn__text">Kara Swisher’s  stare n make  CEOs squirm. Lovely’s is pretty good too.</span><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ CaptnCred-ejegDm iUEiRd hCJFDV fNaHcW ptn__cred">Photograph by Gillian Lb. Hair and Makp by Victoria Stil @ THE Artist Agency.</span></div></div></figure></div></div></hear></div><div data-attribute-verso-pattern="article-body" class="ArticlePageContentBackGround-cNiFNN gVjmSM article-body__ntent"><div class="ActnBarWrapperContent-lasBkU cAHp"><div class="ActnBarWrapperComponent-cjwxLS bEeSLb"><div data-attr-viewport-monor="" class="ActnBarWrapper-dhxmQh izlawS viewport-monor-anchor"><button id="bookmark" aria-label="Save" class="ActnBarButton-dyFOZU foKBbl bookmark large-screen"><span class="ActnBarSendaryButtonPrimaryIn-isbvyN cAwccV bookmark-button-in"><svg class="in in-bookmark" width="24" height="24" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" xmlns="><tle>Save this story</tle><path class="in-bookmark-stroke" d="M11.7661 16.3228L4.5 20.1695V3.5H19.5V20.1695L12.2339 16.3228L12 16.199L11.7661 16.3228Z" stroke-lep="square"/></svg></span><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ ActnBarButtonText-bYXYuh iUEiRd kdAzed gkccfO">Save</span></button></div><div data-attr-viewport-monor="" class="ActnBarWrapper-dhxmQh ledqMp viewport-monor-anchor"><button id="bookmark" aria-label="Save" class="ActnBarButton-dyFOZU ePWKOF bookmark mobile"><span class="ActnBarSendaryButtonPrimaryIn-isbvyN cAwccV bookmark-button-in"><svg class="in in-bookmark" width="24" height="24" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" xmlns="><tle>Save this story</tle><path class="in-bookmark-stroke" d="M11.7661 16.3228L4.5 20.1695V3.5H19.5V20.1695L12.2339 16.3228L12 16.199L11.7661 16.3228Z" stroke-lep="square"/></svg></span><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ ActnBarButtonText-bYXYuh iUEiRd kdAzed gkccfO">Save</span></button></div></div></div><div class="ArticlePageChunksContent-etcMtP bwyLBj"><div data-ttid="ArticlePageChunks" class="ArticlePageChunks-fLyCVG eOdfIs"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa lnwCqV body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="has-dropp">Kara Swisher, rockg aviators, AirPods, and a “Lbians Who Tech” sweatshirt, rolls to Vox Media’s DC headquarters and gets right to work. Today’s episo of <em>On wh Kara Swisher,</em> a twice-weekly podst that lnched September, is about the future of the Republin Party after the Hoe Speaker ee-for-all, and she’s tapped CNN’s <strong>Manu Raju</strong> and The Bulwark’s <strong>Charlie Syk</strong> to make sense of the ms. Once the guts e on mera, Swisher apologiz for wearg sunglass, explag that she fot her prcriptn pair at home.</p><figure data-ttid="IameEmbed" class="IameEmbedWrapper-sc-dRedg hZiq iame-embed"><div data-ttid="IameEmbedContaer" class="IameEmbedContaer-hptgUZ hSLYci"><div class="IameEmbedAspectRatWrapper-hFVJps BKpgQ"><iame class="IameEmbedContent-cMdiev csnuAY IameEmbedContent lazyload" height="100" width="350" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-orig allow-popups allow-popups-to-pe-sandbox" tle="Embedd Frame" data-src=" allow="toplay *; encrypted-media *; clipboard-wre; toplay; fullscreen; picture--picture"></iame></div></div></figure><p class="paywall">“It’s very Dark Brandon,” says Raju.</p><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad---ntent"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot---ntent" data-no-id="9tw9d"></div></div><p class="paywall">“I had before him,” Swisher shoots back. “Let’s be clear on that suatn.”</p><p class="paywall">Swisher, as an terviewer, shows ltle tolerance for bloviatg; she gets to the pot. About halfway through the episo, she lls for a “lightng round” of Hoe Republins, askg Syk to “tell if the person is a te believer or a phony.”</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Marjorie Taylor Greene</strong>?</p><p class="paywall">“She is a nspiracy theorist, batsh-crazy bigot, and antiseme, and for some reason that has ma her a rock star the Republin Party,” says Syk, a Never Tmp–style nservative. And? “She’s a believer—’s bullsh, but she believ .”</p><div class="Contaer-bkChBi byNLHx"></div><p class="paywall">After wrappg up the podst, her third tapg that day, Swisher keeps up a rapid-fire patter wh me. In the urse of a few mut, she bemoans the lack of “entreprenrial” reporters, rells “a big fight wh <strong>Roger Gooll</strong>” after the NFL missner suggted her sons play football, and mentns talkg the prev night wh superagent <strong>Ari Emanuel</strong> about bull ridg. But jt like that, Swisher has to n—not to CNN, where she’s booked to appear that night—but for drks wh executiv om CNBC. She recently cled to re-sign her ntributor ntract wh the work bee she felt nstraed by s exclivy l “and the money wasn’t enough to keep me there.” Now they’ve e to talk to her aga. “I always get approached by the works,” Swisher tells me. “And they jt never”—she lets out an exasperated sigh—“they never know what they want to make.”</p><div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--article-mid-ntent" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--article-mid-ntent nsumer-marketg-un__slot---ntent"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><p class="paywall">Which is not a problem she seems to have. Beyond <a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank"><em>On</em></a><em>,</em> Swisher, 60, also hosts <a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank"><em>Pivot</em></a><em>,</em> a twice-weekly podst wh brash NYU marketg profsor <strong>Stt Galloway</strong>; is wrg a memoir about her beat-reportg days verg the dawn of the web; is workg on a fictnal TV show wh another veteran Silin Valley journalist; is advisg Post News, a social platform she hop will be a Twter petor; and is raisg four kids, two of whom are toddlers. “She has a ffee <em>before bed</em> every night, after midnight,” Semafor’s <strong>Ben Smh</strong> texts. “This seems somehow emblematic to me. (In a good way.)”</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-1 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">Swisher, who is five foot two but “wr tall,” as she lik to say, has rved a nsirable niche for herself, cuttg across televisn, the web, podsts, and social media—beg “the queen of all media,” as veteran tech journalist <strong>Walt Mossberg</strong> puts . A former Vox Media lleague is ls charable: “She’s always been searchg for a way to make her platform even bigger, and she’s done that. But begs and ends wh her. There’s no legacy beyond that.”</p><p class="paywall">Leavg legacy asi for the moment, Swisher has plowed a path through the media landspe alongsi dtry shifts, om reportg at a newspaper to bloggg to foundg succsful webs and nferenc to beg a brand unto herself—part of a trend of ele journalists walkg away om legacy outlets pursu of more eedom and, potentially, profs. Last year she gave up a podst and lumn at <em>The New York Tim</em> largely bee, as she says, “I don’t need mama tellg me what to do.” And she stepped back om Co, the inic tech nference she’d anized and hosted for the past two s. “It was like patg the same patg over and over aga,” she tells me, “and I jt wanted to make somethg else.”</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB kNleGZ sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="Contaer-bkChBi byNLHx"></div><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="b16pog"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div><div data-attr-viewport-monor="" class="RecircMostPopularWrapper-bRuGTi jkTTgR recirc-most-popular-wrapper viewport-monor-anchor"><div class="RecircMostPopularConter-jiViNn ktrplG recirc-most-popular-sparrow-trackg hi-asi-ad" data-most-popular-id="mod-most-popular-1273"><div class="RecircMostPopularHeadg-iVzhzt hBHzvB">Most Popular</div><ul class="RecircMostPopularItems-dCAajf gqcRrp"><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw jkeAv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" 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data-recirc-id="em-hed-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ hRVxvR summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">The <em>Tan</em> Submersible Disaster Was Years the Makg, New Details Reveal</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>San Casey</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw jkeAv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div 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Rosalynn Carter Enterg “Fal Days” Health Update</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Jack McCordick</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 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Is Basilly “Sucks to Be You, Pal”: Report" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent summary-em__ntent--no-bric"><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM fPFrPI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ hRVxvR summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Melania’s Take on Donald Tmp’s Fourth Indictment Is Basilly “Sucks to Be You, Pal”: Report</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Bs Lev</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw fHLKqj ad ad--asi"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--asi" data-no-id="pwts"></div></div></li></ul><div class="RecircMostPopularFooter-enPjgs eAuebe"></div></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="t5dsc"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa lnwCqV body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall"><em>On</em> is the sixth podst Swisher has hosted, but ’s the first where she owns the IP and has plete edorial ntrol. She’s riffed on <strong>Elon Mk</strong> and <strong>Mark Zuckerberg</strong> while expandg her aperture well beyond Silin Valley, terviewg the lik of <strong>Darren Star</strong> and <strong>Geena Davis</strong>, and explorg topics rangg om edy to ath. Swisher’s bettg there’s an dience willg to turn to her for more than jt expertise on tech moguldom. “I mentor a lot of people, and almost every sgle one of them is worried about losg their place if they step out of le. And I’m like, the only way you get higher is if you step out of le,” Swisher tells me. “That’s the only way. Serly. Unls you’re untalented. And then you should stay le.”</p><p class="has-dropp paywall">On a Monday afternoon January, Swisher’s hoe is chaotic, but the good kd, the kd you fd a place where life is happeng. Toys are strewn everywhere and a baby is lghg and sometim cryg and the sk is nng the kchen, where the Goln Child—as Swisher’s three-year-old dghter is monly referred to on her podsts—is about to have a snack. There’s lots of talk of “Elsa chee,” which is strg chee that Disney has brand wh <em>Frozen</em> characters. The Goln Child crawls up onto the unter, where, at the oppose end, Swisher and her wife, the journalist <strong>Amanda Katz</strong>, are tchg up on each other’s day.</p><p class="paywall">“How was the Sramucci thg? Who won?” Katz asks, referrg to a public bate Swisher did that morng wh fancier <strong>Anthony Sramucci</strong> on whether Mk—whom Swisher has known and vered sce the ’90s—is killg Twter.</p><p class="paywall">“I did, obvly,” says Swisher. “I said he is, and ’s killg Elon more than he’s killg .”</p><p class="paywall">“And then <em>Pivot</em> was good,” Swisher says. “Stt ma at least 14 prostute jok.”</p><p class="paywall">Dpe havg a mistroke a back, Swisher famoly do not like takg time off and works around the clock. In December, “she had heart surgery and she was workg the day before and the day after. That’s not an exaggeratn,” Galloway tells me. (When I ask Swisher how the surgery went, she repli, “Good, obvly.”) Her turbocharged work ethic uld be traced, part, to tragedy early life. When she was five, her father died sudnly at 34 of plitns om a bra anrysm. Frh out of the Navy and wh three kids, he’d jt purchased his first hoe and land a gig as the head of anthia at the Brooklyn Jewish Hospal. “He thought he was head for the big time. He jt died—fell over one day. And that has rmed everythg I’ve done. I’m like, I don’t have time for this,” says Swisher, addg, “You don’t have time, eher. Nobody has time.”</p><p class="paywall">Swisher’s mother remarried soon after, to a “cel” man whom Swisher “uldn’t say enough bad thgs about” but adms was a “nny engeer.” When Swisher was sixth gra, they moved om Long Island to Prceton, New Jersey, for his work, and when the rt of the fay moved to California a few years later, Swisher stayed behd. “I was like, I’m the yearbook edor. I have a boyiend. Fuck you,” she rells. “I lived wh iends and fished my senr year by myself, pretty much.” (Swisher knew she was gay om age four but didn’t have a girliend until llege.)</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-2 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">At Geetown’s School of Foreign Service, she studied propaganda, an tn that shaped her view of misrmatn and <strong>Donald Tmp</strong>’s manipulatn of the media. “I thk I was one of the first to say there’s real damage gog on here and we have to start payg attentn to ,” Swisher says. “You have to be able to look at that and see what they’re dog, even if you cry and hate …. I was always terted the movg of the Overton wdow.” Swisher wanted to follow her father to the ary. “I thought I might go to the CIA,” she says. But that would’ve required her to lie about beg gay. “I didn’t even try.”</p><p class="paywall">Durg llege, she worked as a strger for <em>The Washgton Post</em> after plag to then Metro edor <strong>Larry Kramer</strong> about a sloppy story they’d published on a Geetown event. Years later—after stts at Columbia Journalism School (“a waste of money” that she wished she’d “vted Apple stock” stead), the <em>Washgton Cy Paper,</em> and the polil chat-ft <em>The McLghl Group</em> (whose host, the late John McLghl, she later ttified agast a sexual harassment se)—she returned to the <em>Post,</em> workg her way up om Style news ai to reporter on the lol retail beat. “The <em>Post</em> is where I signifintly started to e technology,” says Swisher, rellg the suse cell phone she ed to lug around the office.</p><asi aria-hidn="te" class="PullQuoteEmbedWrapper-sc-EoVjf fQbAzo"><div class="PullQuoteDerativeBorr-sc-iUyOLj UnBFT"></div><div class="PullQuoteEmbedContent-sc-kTcfhx hNqtol"><p class="paywall">“Kara’s sort of nstant text nversatn wh half the pla.”</p></div></asi><p class="paywall">Swisher put herself on the map natnally at the <em>Post</em> while verg the fg dot- saga of the ’90s: AOL and s eventual disastro merger wh Time Warner. “Kara always had this larger-than-life personaly. I remember her [as] short, feisty, the kd of person who sets the room alive,” rells the <em>Post</em>’s <strong>David Ignati</strong>, who was bs edor when Swisher was wrg for the sectn. “She was a star. We knew we uldn’t hold her.”</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="fozaz4a"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div><div data-attr-viewport-monor="" class="RecircMostPopularWrapper-bRuGTi jkTTgR recirc-most-popular-wrapper viewport-monor-anchor"><div class="RecircMostPopularConter-jiViNn ktrplG recirc-most-popular-sparrow-trackg hi-asi-ad" data-most-popular-id="mod-most-popular-1274"><div class="RecircMostPopularHeadg-iVzhzt hBHzvB">Most Popular</div><ul class="RecircMostPopularItems-dCAajf gqcRrp"><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw jkeAv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Tan Submersible Disaster Was Years the Makg, New Details Reveal" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent summary-em__ntent--no-bric"><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM fPFrPI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ hRVxvR summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">The <em>Tan</em> Submersible Disaster Was Years the Makg, New Details Reveal</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>San Casey</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw jkeAv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter Enterg “Fal Days” Health Update" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent summary-em__ntent--no-bric"><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM fPFrPI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ hRVxvR summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter Enterg “Fal Days” Health Update</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Jack McCordick</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw jkeAv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Melania’s Take on Donald Tmp’s Fourth Indictment Is Basilly “Sucks to Be You, Pal”: Report" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent summary-em__ntent--no-bric"><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM fPFrPI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ hRVxvR summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Melania’s Take on Donald Tmp’s Fourth Indictment Is Basilly “Sucks to Be You, Pal”: Report</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Bs Lev</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw fHLKqj ad ad--asi"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--asi" data-no-id="aw4tms"></div></div></li></ul><div class="RecircMostPopularFooter-enPjgs eAuebe"></div></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="agsuwa"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa lnwCqV body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">She left to wre her first of two books on AOL, meetg Mossberg along the way. He remend her for a job at <em>The Wall Street Journal,</em> where 2003 the duo lnched the AllThgsD nference, a live-journalism extravaganza featurg the biggt nam tech. It was at this nference 2007 that <strong>Bill Gat</strong> and Steve Jobs took the stage together a historic jot terview and, a few years later, where Zuckerberg broke to a profe sweat amid qutns about Facebook privacy.</p><p class="paywall">“Kara’s never ad homem. She might be snarky, but she don’t attack people; she attacks their actns and their ias,” Mossberg tells me. “People feel that her terviews n elevate them, and sometim n hurt them, but that ’s worth the price of admissn,” says veteran executive producer <strong>Tammy Haddad</strong>. A recent example is CNN chief executive <strong>Chris Licht</strong>, who, to put dly, got off to a rough start. It was strategic for Licht to give his first extensive terview to Swisher, a source close to the CNN chief acknowledg, as Swisher “had the credibily to help rhape the narrative but also would give the imprsn that Chris is pretty fearls, bee she’s a tough terviewer.”</p><p class="paywall">The succs of the nference nvced Dow Jon to let Mossberg and Swisher start the AllThgsD blog. They left 2013 to start their own venture, for which they’d raised $10 ln fundg, takg the AllThgsD staff wh them and tryg, unsuccsfully, to take the brand too. But <em>Journal</em> owner <strong>Rupert Murdoch</strong>, she says, wanted $10 ln for the URL. “I wrote them back. I said, ‘I n buy FuckYouRupert for $10.’ ” So AllThgsD beme Re and the D Conference beme the Co Conference. About a year and a half later, Vox Media purchased Re an all-stock al.</p><p class="paywall">CEO <strong>Jim Bankoff,</strong> who first enuntered Swisher as an AOL executive on the other end of one of her reportg lls, basilly let her do whatever she wanted at Vox Media. Not long after the sale, Swisher stopped nng Re—“I hate managg,” she says—and started the <em>Re De</em> podst. What really sold her on podstg was the “emotnal attachment” listeners felt to her as a host. Part of what mak Swisher so pellg is her abily to “move between the personal and the work wh ease,” says <em>New York Tim</em> CEO <strong>Meredh Kop Levien</strong>.</p><p class="paywall">Swisher noticed that her “geek guy” dience began to expand after venturg to podstg, such as when four women of lor, all entreprenrs, approached her on the Muni San Francis. “<em>Kara, ’s you. I n’t believe .</em> I’m like, this is not my fuck’ mo,” Swisher remembers. (More recently, a firefighter “ma a one-eighty the street New York” to take a selfie wh her, she rells. “He’s like, <em>I love you…. I knew the NFTs were bullsh, thank you for explag to me.</em>”) She signed off as host of <em>Re De</em> July 2020, five years and more than 500 terviews later. By then she’d started <em>Pivot.</em> The dynamic is Galloway as provotr and Swisher reelg him . Also 2020, <em>Pivot</em> beme part of <em>New York</em> magaze, which Vox Media had acquired a year earlier.</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="kq16"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div><div data-attr-viewport-monor="" class="RecircMostPopularWrapper-bRuGTi jkTTgR recirc-most-popular-wrapper viewport-monor-anchor"><div class="RecircMostPopularConter-jiViNn ktrplG recirc-most-popular-sparrow-trackg hi-asi-ad" data-most-popular-id="mod-most-popular-1275"><div class="RecircMostPopularHeadg-iVzhzt hBHzvB">Most Popular</div><ul class="RecircMostPopularItems-dCAajf gqcRrp"><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw jkeAv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Tan Submersible Disaster Was Years the Makg, New Details Reveal" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent summary-em__ntent--no-bric"><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM fPFrPI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ hRVxvR summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">The <em>Tan</em> Submersible Disaster Was Years the Makg, New Details Reveal</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>San Casey</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw jkeAv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter Enterg “Fal Days” Health Update" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent summary-em__ntent--no-bric"><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM fPFrPI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ hRVxvR summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter Enterg “Fal Days” Health Update</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Jack McCordick</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw jkeAv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Melania’s Take on Donald Tmp’s Fourth Indictment Is Basilly “Sucks to Be You, Pal”: Report" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent summary-em__ntent--no-bric"><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM fPFrPI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ hRVxvR summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Melania’s Take on Donald Tmp’s Fourth Indictment Is Basilly “Sucks to Be You, Pal”: Report</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Bs Lev</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw fHLKqj ad ad--asi"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--asi" data-no-id="40q2ma"></div></div></li></ul><div class="RecircMostPopularFooter-enPjgs eAuebe"></div></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="2cq7xp"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa lnwCqV body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">Dpe the <em>New York</em> associatn, Swisher, who has two teenage sons wh her first wife, former Google executive <strong>Megan Smh</strong>, is livg DC aga. For most of our nversatn at her home, she wears her signature aviator sunglass until ’s dark enough that she gets up to turn on a lamp. (She has an eye ndn that sensivy to light. “The aviators are a brand thg; the dark glass are not,” she explas.) As we’re talkg, we are ocsnally terpted by other piec of Swisher’s life poppg through the doorway—the t, Katz, and the Goln Child, who to ask Swisher to help her put the shoe back on her Barbie. Fiddlg wh the plastic shoe, Swisher tells her dghter, “Honey, I never played wh Barbi.” Swisher tells me she did an terview wh the CEO of Mattel and told him she hated Barbie; afterward, he sent her a box of them. “I let her keep one and I gave the rt to chary.” The Goln Child leav the doll on the table ont of Swisher, who proceeds for the next hour to stroke Barbie’s hair while we talk.</p><asi aria-hidn="te" class="PullQuoteEmbedWrapper-sc-EoVjf fQbAzo"><div class="PullQuoteDerativeBorr-sc-iUyOLj UnBFT"></div><div class="PullQuoteEmbedContent-sc-kTcfhx hNqtol"><p class="paywall">“The word <em>brand</em>— mak you feel like you’re a jar of peanut butter.”</p></div></asi><p class="paywall">“The word <em>brand</em>— mak you feel like you’re a jar of peanut butter,” says Swisher, rellg how people ed to lodge as an sult. “I’m makg somethg that has my name on , and bee of the new tools available to through the ter, we n now get our voice out there ways we uldn’t,” she says. “I thk I was one of the first to say that to people. And obvly, the people who n the plac do not like that msage. When I left the <em>Journal,</em> everyone sudnly was like, You n leave? They were shocked.” She whispers, “I was like, <em>You n leave.</em>”</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-3 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">“I’m tryg to teach you that, right?” Swisher says to her dghter, who nods. “Yeah? You gonna do what you wanna do?” Another nod. “Yeah. Good. You’re gonna watch <em>Frozen</em> all the time is what you’re gonna do.” Swisher, lowerg her voice, tells me, “It’s hero. I texted <strong>Bob Iger</strong>, I’m like, stop. You put on chee. What the fuck!”</p><figure class="AssetEmbedWrapper-eVDQiB byBkf asset-embed"><div class="AssetEmbedAssetContaer-eJxoAx dBHGoQ asset-embed__asset-ntaer"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset AssetEmbedRponsiveAsset-cXBNxi eCxVQK asset-embed__rponsive-asset"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa AssetEmbedRponsiveAsset-cXBNxi eCxVQK asset-embed__rponsive-asset rponsive-image"><noscript><img alt="“Honey I never played wh Barbi” Swisher tells her dghter. She let her keep one om a box sent over by Mattels CEO." class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src=" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w, 960w, 1280w, 1600w" siz="100vw"/></noscript></picture></span></div><div class="CaptnWrapper-jSZdqE kIXbGQ ptn AssetEmbedCaptn-fNQBPI fmQnYP asset-embed__ptn"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ CaptnText-bHjzlu iUEiRd hBkROF iXWezO ptn__text">“Honey, I never played wh Barbi,” Swisher tells her dghter. She let her keep one om a box sent over by Mattel’s CEO.</span><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ CaptnCred-ejegDm iUEiRd hCJFDV fNaHcW ptn__cred">Photograph by Gillian Lb. Hair and Makp by Victoria Stil @ THE Artist Agency.</span></div></figure><p class="has-dropp paywall">When I ask Swisher whether the succs of <em>Pivot</em> has given her the eedom to turn down or leave other projects, she practilly snorts. “I’ll walk away om anythg,” she says. “I always feel like I n make somethg else.”</p><p class="paywall">Case pot: <em>The New York Tim,</em> where Swisher land an Opn lumn 2018. Then me <em>Sway,</em> a twice-weekly podst about power that was meant to be a <strong>Terry Gross</strong>–type show—<strong>Hillary Clton</strong> and <strong>Jane Goodall</strong> were early guts—but changed directn over time as beme more reactive to news. Some episos ma a splash, like one the aftermath of the January 6 surrectn which Swisher prsed Parler CEO <strong>John Matze</strong> on the right-wg social media platform’s role. Apple ced his ments on <em>Sway</em> s cisn to remove Parler om s App Store. Matze was fired a month later. But then Swisher started to get “chy,” as she puts , particularly wh the lumn, which she says n bee “a live ff” for people who stay too long. “I thk most people have 40 good lumns them.”</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="b1lt"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div><div data-attr-viewport-monor="" class="RecircMostPopularWrapper-bRuGTi jkTTgR recirc-most-popular-wrapper viewport-monor-anchor"><div class="RecircMostPopularConter-jiViNn ktrplG recirc-most-popular-sparrow-trackg hi-asi-ad" data-most-popular-id="mod-most-popular-1276"><div class="RecircMostPopularHeadg-iVzhzt hBHzvB">Most Popular</div><ul class="RecircMostPopularItems-dCAajf gqcRrp"><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw jkeAv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Tan Submersible Disaster Was Years the Makg, New Details Reveal" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent summary-em__ntent--no-bric"><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM fPFrPI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ hRVxvR summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">The <em>Tan</em> Submersible Disaster Was Years the Makg, New Details Reveal</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>San Casey</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw jkeAv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter Enterg “Fal Days” Health Update" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent summary-em__ntent--no-bric"><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM fPFrPI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ hRVxvR summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter Enterg “Fal Days” Health Update</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Jack McCordick</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw jkeAv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Melania’s Take on Donald Tmp’s Fourth Indictment Is Basilly “Sucks to Be You, Pal”: Report" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent summary-em__ntent--no-bric"><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM fPFrPI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ hRVxvR summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Melania’s Take on Donald Tmp’s Fourth Indictment Is Basilly “Sucks to Be You, Pal”: Report</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Bs Lev</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw fHLKqj ad ad--asi"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--asi" data-no-id="woyc3t"></div></div></li></ul><div class="RecircMostPopularFooter-enPjgs eAuebe"></div></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="wpr5p5"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa lnwCqV body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">And there was tumult at <em>Sway.</em> Six people left the <em>Tim</em> after about a year or ls of workg on the show. “It was totally known across the Opn d partment that this was a nightmare show to work for,” says one <em>Tim</em> staffer, who, along wh three former Opn d staffers, pots to impossible adl and poor management. There were “months and months of terventns and people tryg to fix ,” the staffer says. When I ask Swisher how she felt she was as a manager on <em>Sway,</em> she says she wasn’t one; she was talent. “Nobody reported directly to me,” says Swisher. “I didn’t hire them. I didn’t fire them. I didn’t do their reviews or anythg like that. I wasn’t volved anybody’s review, unfortunately.”</p><p class="paywall">As for the turnover, she says, “I thk was that they didn’t hire the right people the first place,” bee “I do news.” I pot out that <em>Sway</em> was a product of the Opn si of <em>Tim</em> d, not s news divisn, which she dismiss as an irrelevant distctn. “When somethg happens, I want to do right away…they jt didn’t wanna move that way. I totally get , I pletely rpect , but I jt didn’t want to do the slower show. I wanted to do the fast-burn show. And so was a real stggle.”</p><p class="paywall">Swisher started hostg nversatns on Twter Spac. “I was makg somethg else. When I have four children, four podsts a week, a lumn…what do that say to you? I’m not makg what I wanna make.” She was also chafg agast the <em>Tim</em>’ burecracy. “I jt wanted to make what I wanted to make, and I didn’t wanna ask 86 people. They’re all really smart. They jt aren’t me.” (<em>New York Tim</em> Opn edor <strong>Kathleen Kgsbury</strong> appld Swisher’s “unmistakable voice” and says the sectn was “grateful for her four years of reportg and mentary for .”)</p><p class="paywall">As Swisher was gettg creasgly rtls at the <em>Tim,</em> she was nsirg opportuni elsewhere, cludg <em>The Washgton Post,</em> which was talkg to her about a role spanng podsts, live events, and lumns. “They wanted to brg a star, and they jt didn’t wanna pay,” says Swisher. She went furtht down the road wh CNN, which wanted her to host a show on CNN+ and was offerg “lns of dollars,” acrdg to Swisher. Galloway had already signed his own al to host a program on the forthg streamg service, but she was wary given the impendg Warner Bros. Disvery merger. “They’re gonna have to cut somethg big and gus what’s big and stupid? That,” she said of CNN+, which Disvery quickly killed off.</p><p class="paywall">Swisher wanted to make a different type of terview show, ls formal than <em>Sway</em> and “more about me,” Swisher says. “I jt didn’t thk I uld make there. The dience was different. They weren’t on the joke.” Over at <em>New York,</em> edor chief <strong>David Haskell</strong> was on the same page. “You know, I listened to . I was sometim jealo of ,” he says of <em>Sway.</em> “And there were ways which I also thought we might be a better home for her.” Once she’d cid to leave, Swisher first told Levien, the <em>Tim</em>’ CEO. “I didn’t go to the edorial people. I knew they’d be hurt…they have a visn of nobody leav the <em>Tim,</em> but she got right away,” says Swisher. “It was good to have her at the <em>Tim</em> for the stretch we had her, and mak sense to me why she moved on,” says Levien, scribg Swisher as a “force the dtry.”</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="zz69d"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div><div data-attr-viewport-monor="" class="RecircMostPopularWrapper-bRuGTi jkTTgR recirc-most-popular-wrapper viewport-monor-anchor"><div class="RecircMostPopularConter-jiViNn ktrplG recirc-most-popular-sparrow-trackg hi-asi-ad" data-most-popular-id="mod-most-popular-1277"><div class="RecircMostPopularHeadg-iVzhzt hBHzvB">Most Popular</div><ul class="RecircMostPopularItems-dCAajf gqcRrp"><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw jkeAv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Tan Submersible Disaster Was Years the Makg, New Details Reveal" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent summary-em__ntent--no-bric"><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM fPFrPI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ hRVxvR summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">The <em>Tan</em> Submersible Disaster Was Years the Makg, New Details Reveal</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>San Casey</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw jkeAv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter Enterg “Fal Days” Health Update" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent summary-em__ntent--no-bric"><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM fPFrPI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ hRVxvR summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter Enterg “Fal Days” Health Update</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Jack McCordick</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw jkeAv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Melania’s Take on Donald Tmp’s Fourth Indictment Is Basilly “Sucks to Be You, Pal”: Report" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent summary-em__ntent--no-bric"><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM fPFrPI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ hRVxvR summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Melania’s Take on Donald Tmp’s Fourth Indictment Is Basilly “Sucks to Be You, Pal”: Report</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Bs Lev</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw fHLKqj ad ad--asi"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--asi" data-no-id="p4qb0a"></div></div></li></ul><div class="RecircMostPopularFooter-enPjgs eAuebe"></div></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="v9297j"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa lnwCqV body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">Over lunch at a Japane rtrant Cathedral Heights, I ask Swisher how much of her cisn to leave the <em>Tim</em> had to do wh ownership. “A lot,” she says, between b of salmon teriyaki. “What was happeng at the time is I fd out that all the stuff at the <em>Journal,</em> the AllThgsD stuff, disappeared om the ter,” says Swisher. “They were so rels wh my stuff,” she says. “I’ve done a thoand or more terviews. I own none of them.” Meanwhile, there she was at the <em>Tim,</em> growg somethg else that wasn’t hers. “I also wanted a piece of the revenue aga, and the <em>Tim</em> is not gonna do that, sorry to tell you,” she says. “I was workg at a disunt at <em>The New York Tim</em> for what I make.”</p><p class="has-dropp paywall">As Bankoff was preparg to lnch The Verge 2011, he cid to break the news a -exclive wh Swisher at AllThgsD and the late David Carr at the <em>Tim.</em> “She ma very clear to me that if I were to burn her—i.e., hold up rmatn om her that Carr was gettg—there would be repercsns,” Bankoff relled, lghg. “I’m not exactly sure what those repercsns would be…but I knew then, and I know now, that you keep your word wh Kara.”</p><p class="paywall">“I ed to be so aggrsive about that stuff. Not anymore. I don’t re,” Swisher tells me when I ask her about this story. “Sops don’t matter anymore bee they’re so ephemeral,” she says. Still, she bristl at the ia that she’s not still reportg. “I do reportg all the time,” she tells me. “It manifts self my terviews,” says Swisher. “I’m dog reported analysis now. I am not dog pundry.” (Even if she’s toned down her reportg style, she’s still seen as someone not to cross: Multiple people wouldn’t speak to me for this story bee, they remd me, Swisher is a powerful person.)</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-4 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">“She’s willg to get to the brawl wh me,” Emanuel, the Enavor CEO, told me, likeng his and Swisher’s back-and-forths to the “Friday-night dners at my hoe that I ed to have—you had to e wh a strong argument and pots of view, and willg to throw blows and take blows.” Emanuel met Swisher more than a ago at a Silin Valley gatherg. “She’s somebody that when I have a qutn about their pot of view, and I tst their pot of view, I’ll pick up the phone and say, what’s your take on this?”</p><p class="paywall">Swisher se her role now ls as breakg news about tech pani than terpretg the words and actns of the dtry tans she knows “very well.” Take Mk, for example. They’re not on speakg terms—he recently lled her an asshole an email—and yet Swisher has still managed to posn herself as the go-to Elon expert. She’s even featured herself as the gut for an <em>On</em> episo tled “Elon Mk: Somebody That I Used to Know”; Swisher’s executive producer and on-air sikick, <strong>Nayeema Raza</strong>, nducted the terview. Swisher siarly served as terviewee on a recent Zuckerberg episo, and as wh Mk, tak on the role of tech dtry nscience. “Part of the power of her podst is there’s a sense of somebody who has been here the whole time and is kd of fed up,” says tech journalist <strong>Casey Newton</strong>, who nsirs Swisher a mentor (as well as a landlord—he rents her gut ttage San Francis).</p><p class="paywall">The often blurry le between Swisher the sir and Swisher the reporter is precisely her appeal. “Kara’s sort of nstant text nversatn wh half the pla, and ’s a thrill to realize that that’s what’s buzzg your pocket,” says Haskell. (I got my own glimpse of this over the urse of reportg this piece, as I’d get random texts om Swisher, at all hours, weighg on the media topic du jour and once accintally ropg me to a group chat wh her agents.) Those who socialize wh her the pal scribe her a perpetual state of gatherg strg. “She knows everybody, and she gets ved everywhere, bee she’s fun,” says legendary Washgton journalist and host <strong>Sally Qun</strong>, whose late hband, Ben Bradlee, hired Swisher to the <em>Post.</em> “She also has an credible bullsh tector—which is always helpful Washgton,” Qun adds.</p><p class="paywall">Swisher is the middle of wrg her memoir about verg the early days of the ter. It’s takg her a while, bee, addn to “all the children, jobs, and heart surgeri,” she tells me, “I don’t like the people I’m wrg about anymore.” (A few weeks later, at an absurdly late hour, she texted that she’d jt fished her chapter on <strong>Jeff Bezos</strong>. “Tomorrow: RUPERT,” she add.) As part of a two-book al, Swisher also hop to wre a book wh her brother, the doctor <strong>Jefey Swisher</strong>, about the science of livg forever.</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="2gow"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div><div data-attr-viewport-monor="" class="RecircMostPopularWrapper-bRuGTi jkTTgR recirc-most-popular-wrapper viewport-monor-anchor"><div class="RecircMostPopularConter-jiViNn ktrplG recirc-most-popular-sparrow-trackg hi-asi-ad" data-most-popular-id="mod-most-popular-1278"><div class="RecircMostPopularHeadg-iVzhzt hBHzvB">Most Popular</div><ul class="RecircMostPopularItems-dCAajf gqcRrp"><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw jkeAv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Tan Submersible Disaster Was Years the Makg, New Details Reveal" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent summary-em__ntent--no-bric"><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM fPFrPI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ hRVxvR summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">The <em>Tan</em> Submersible Disaster Was Years the Makg, New Details Reveal</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>San Casey</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw jkeAv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter Enterg “Fal Days” Health Update" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent summary-em__ntent--no-bric"><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM fPFrPI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ hRVxvR summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter Enterg “Fal Days” Health Update</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Jack McCordick</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jnQVDN summary-em summary-em--has-borr summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-si-by-si summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw jkeAv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Melania’s Take on Donald Tmp’s Fourth Indictment Is Basilly “Sucks to Be You, Pal”: Report" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent summary-em__ntent--no-bric"><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM fPFrPI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ hRVxvR summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Melania’s Take on Donald Tmp’s Fourth Indictment Is Basilly “Sucks to Be You, Pal”: Report</div></div></div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Bs Lev</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></li><li><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ RecircMostPopularSummaryItem-jQxxiw fHLKqj ad ad--asi"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--asi" data-no-id="mgix9f"></div></div></li></ul><div class="RecircMostPopularFooter-enPjgs eAuebe"></div></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="k2sdks"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa lnwCqV body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">At the moment, she’s also workg on a documentary about AOL wh Left/Right productns—“It’s a great ncept” and “I’m the only one who n help them”—and a scripted show about tech wh Bloomberg’s <strong>Brad Stone</strong>, who is dog the screenwrg. They have a shownner, “so we’ll see if we sell ,” says Swisher. She’s also been advisg Post News, a social work found by former Waze CEO <strong>Noam Bard</strong>, and has been enuragg people to jo on Twter. “I would like a viable petor [to Twter] by an entreprenr I rpect,” Swisher says. “I hate that there’s one Twter.”</p><p class="paywall">Swisher says she tri to stcture her als “where I get a piece of for my succs.” For <em>Pivot,</em> she received Vox Media stock that n be nverted to sh after four years. Wh <em>On,</em> she owns the IP, has a mimum salary, and they share the revenue after sts. “I thk reporters are super unfortable talkg about money, and I’m not at all,” she said. “I really hate that journalists don’t unrstand bs. If you don’t unrstand the enomics of what’s happeng, you’re fucked.”</p><p class="paywall">“She clearly, through her journalism, unrstood not only the value but the power of tellectual property while verg what others were dog that space,” Disney CEO Bob Iger, who has bantered wh Swisher both offstage and on for years, tells me. “There she was wh a ont-row seat to the mg of great tellectual property—g technology, really—as a means of creatg value,” he says, addg that Swisher “ effect turned the rults of her own reportg on herself.”</p><p class="paywall">In Febary 2022, Galloway and Swisher held the gural <em>Pivot</em> Conference, which they both have an ownership stake. “It was not a fancial succs. It was very expensive to put on,” Galloway tells me. They’ve held other live <em>Pivot</em> events—cludg Germany and London January—but are still figurg out what’s next. About half of <em>Pivot</em>’s dience is Gen Z or lennial, wh more than 70 percent the 18-to-49 age bracket, acrdg to a Vox Media spokperson. One ia is gog to bs schools, where Swisher says <em>Pivot</em> has “a crazy fan base,” and creatg some sort of workg ocsn. “Somethg else bis people stg a fuckg ballroom,” she says.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-5 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">Even wh so many projects swirlg the prent, Swisher has an eye toward postery. “In history, they’re gonna watch that Gat and Jobs terview. A hundred years om now—that’s how we got them to do , really,” she told me. “They’re gonna watch all the terviews…’s like you had Thomas Edison, and I challenged him. Rather than what grows up around them, the mythology, you’ll be able to hear them beg terviewed by someone who was good at terviewg.”<br/><br/><em>CORRECTION: An earlier versn of this story misstated the technology Swisher ed while workg at</em> The Washgton Post. <em>She ed a suse cell phone, not a Kaypro puter.</em></p></div><div class="LkStackWrapper-NFLYw kgtXXB lkstack LkStackArticlePage-iOxhrM foHAfE" data-ttid="LkStack"><div class="SectnTleRoot-dBGvdq gZGsZC LkStackHear-lKjbE fphUig lk-stack--headg" data-ttid="SectnTle"><h2 class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SectnTleHed-dKqZet bVCFRm ktpdQe QVDXy">More Great Stori From <em>Vany Fair</em></h2></div><div class="LkStackContent-jyKicS kGeAnU"><ul class="LkStackList-gGcjdZ dnMwpz"><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p><a href=" target="_blank">Riley Keough</a> on Growg Up Prley, Inherg Graceland, and More</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" 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data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>A New <a href=" target="_blank">Slim Aarons Book</a> Captur a Lost World</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>From the Archive: <a href=" target="_blank">Too Hepburn for Hollywood</a> (2006)</p></div></li></ul></div></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="ouhwp9"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 PaywallInleBarrierWhWrapperGrid-fyrGfS kLQIUk grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="body body__le-barrier article__body"><div class="ntaer ntaer--body"><div class="ntaer--body-ner"><asi class="PaywallInleBarrierWrapper-iBnuqk lfXXa-D" data-ttid="PaywallInleBarrierWrapper"><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--paywall-le-barrier" role="prentatn" aria-live="pole" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--paywall-le-barrier"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></asi></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ContentWrapperGrid-fvkmBv brYtrA grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="body body__ntaer"><div class="ntaer ntaer--body"><div class="ntaer--body-ner"></div></div></div></div></div></div></article><div class="ContentFooterWrapper-jVNdRG dTJkpP ArticlePageContentFooterGrid-ccsXYy eMZRHU article-body__footer"><div class="ContentFooterContributorSpotlightWrapper-jglHff edmTAt"><sectn data-ttid="ContributorSpotlightContaer" class="ContributorSpotlightContaer-ccVxgz fwlOPD"><div class="ContributorSpotlightInnerContaer-elBox jSvXVx"><div class="ContributorSpotlightSgleColumn-idLiJU goRdaE"><sectn class="ContributorSpotlightSummaryGrid-jZdHDE hJMn"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK hvFIAc grid grid-ems-2 ContributorSpotlightMaSectnGrid-kYVLYK gpZeIC"><div class="GridItem-buujkM eHLzLy grid--em"><div class="ContributorHearWrapper-cMHleS bnIcwz"><div class="ContributorGrid-fKcSKO fnuDrA"><div class="ContributorHearContent-gJdnVA cyzBPN"><div class="ContributorDenseHearWrapper-gwHjlj GZJVT"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW jvZaPI rponsive-asset ContributorLogo-dFyyNF eiPDIw"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa ContributorLogo-dFyyNF eiPDIw rponsive-image"><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 80w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 90w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></picture></span><div class="ContributorNameAndTleWrapper-jlSeaF ifAFdg"><h1 data-ttid="ContributorHearName" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ ContributorHearName-fNrWXe iUEiRd cSfQOi clPwUE">Charlotte Kle</h1><h2 class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ ContributorHearTle-kiBYJJ iUEiRd cSfQOi gglfXw">Staff Wrer</h2></div></div><div data-ttid="ContributorHearB" class="ContributorHearB-etClMZ kLUMCd"><a href="/ntributor/charlotte-kle">Charlotte Kle</a> is a staff wrer at <em>Vany Fair</em>’s Hive, where she wr about media and polics. She was prevly a fact-checker at <em>New York</em> magaze. Fd her on <a href=" target="_blank">Twter</a> or at <a href="" target="_blank"></a>.</div><a href="/ntributor/charlotte-kle" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM ContributorHearSeeMoreLk-iRIKOz iUEiRd bJVYxx UDwfc gkcXuI">See More By Charlotte Kle <!-- -->»</a></div></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM eHLzLy grid--em"></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"></div></div></sectn></div></div></sectn></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"></div></div></div><div data-ttid="ContentFooterBottom" class="ContentFooterBottom-jwWZfC kcbyiW"><div class="ntent-bottom-anchor"></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--article-footer" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--article-footer"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div><div data-attr-viewport-monor="" class="recirc-list-wrapper viewport-monor-anchor"><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan ContentFooterRelated-kEBiFe kVUuwq"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 SummaryCollectnGridComponent-ktyEog bdTTVU summary-llectn-grid RecircListDefltOverlaySummaryCollectnGrid-AHJhY bEaXiL recirc-list__ems summary-llectn-grid--four-lumns summary-llectn-grid--TextBelowLeft"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="SummaryCollectnGridContent-eVUpRm gOErDJ"><div class="SectnTleRoot-dBGvdq gZGsZC SummaryCollectnGridSectnTle-fCmYwG izjbVn" data-ttid="SectnTle"><hear class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SectnTleHed-dKqZet dxqEAa ktpdQe jttyjJ">Read More</hear></div><div class="SummaryCollectnGridItems-DZShR ctWPkx hi-read-more-ad" data-ttid="SummaryCollectnGridItems"><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jCBznZ summary-em summary-em--has-le summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-50-50 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm dZTLOr" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg bDvSkO summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg bDvSkO summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Elon Mk’s Twter Wanted to Tell Tmp About a Sealed Search Warrant and Potentially F--k Up Jack Smh’s Crimal Invtigatn" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX hXRWeY bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN lapGFj summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Polics</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cxlTHI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-1" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ drYWLe summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Elon Mk’s Twter Wanted to Tell Tmp About a Sealed Search Warrant and Potentially F--k Up Jack Smh’s Crimal Invtigatn</div></div></div></a><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd ijSOpT jDyfzW summary-em__k">A judge feared that notifyg Tmp uld give him an opportuny to stroy evince or “flee” the prosecutn.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Bs Lev</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jCBznZ summary-em summary-em--has-le summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-50-50 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm dZTLOr" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg bDvSkO summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg bDvSkO summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Twter Can’t Seem to Buck Its Advertisers-Don’t-Want-to-Be-Seen-Next-to-Nazis Problem" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX hXRWeY bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN lapGFj summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Tech</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cxlTHI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ drYWLe summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Twter Can’t Seem to Buck Its Advertisers-Don’t-Want-to-Be-Seen-Next-to-Nazis Problem</div></div></div></a><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd ijSOpT jDyfzW summary-em__k">Now rebrand unr Elon Mk as X, the social media pany’s mpaign to nvce big brands that they n tst them is not gog well.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Caleb Erma</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jCBznZ summary-em summary-em--has-le summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-50-50 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm dZTLOr" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg bDvSkO summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg bDvSkO summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Summer of Spe Is Almost Over. Are We Done Beg Speful?" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX hXRWeY bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN lapGFj summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Style</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cxlTHI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ drYWLe summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">The Summer of Spe Is Almost Over. Are We Done Beg Speful?</div></div></div></a><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd ijSOpT jDyfzW summary-em__k">From Mk vs. Zuckerberg to vdictive Ron DeSantis to those vlent ors, we’re livg an era of vengeance.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Rachel Dos</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm dZTLOr ad ad--read-more"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--read-more" data-no-id="dfu96q"></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff jCBznZ summary-em summary-em--has-le summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below summary-em--layout-posn-image-left summary-em--layout-proportns-50-50 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm dZTLOr" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb cPpCwE summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg bDvSkO summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz hlQxkn"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg bDvSkO summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet="" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Is an AI-Media Legal Fight Brewg?" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl XMZX summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX hXRWeY bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN lapGFj summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Tech</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cxlTHI summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div data-ttid="ClampWrapper" class="ClampWrapper-kZxfkB hTTNGO clamp SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ drYWLe summary-em__hed"><div class="ClampContent-hilPkr jVhSBH"><div class="SummaryItemHedTag-TWblf gxaOcP" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Is an AI-Media Legal Fight Brewg?</div></div></div></a><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd ijSOpT jDyfzW summary-em__k">IAC founr Barry Diller and others are reportedly weighg legal actn agast AI platforms for g their ntent whout permissn.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY gRtaxp summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH iNSiTG byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd bIbWCO gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Charlotte Kle</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryCollectnGridToActnWrapper-gnReGN eGayfk"></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="TaboolaWrapper-hMVdpE iYfBhy"><div class="TaboolaWidgetWrapper-egPIjc hkSrgt TaboolaWidget-eUSdED hQCCRa" data-ttid="TaboolaWidgetWrapper"><div class="TaboolaWidgetContent-iBEQTO eXroXG TABOOLA" id="taboola-below-article-thumbnails" data-ttid="TaboolaWidgetContent"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--footer should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--footer" data-no-id="9lz14r"></div></div></div></div></div></ma><div class="BasePageMaFooterFiller-hTlZph jSriYf page__ma-footer-filler"></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--cm-footer" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot 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