bars</tle><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_65hRV2Qwn" class="css-1fxvzwo" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_ILVvi2tqx" class="css-1wnday1" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC"><rect x="34" width="6" height="36" id="el_qw_T_tngXw"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_p_9Pm85Ac" class="css-fwki7z" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_WxG3R40yd" class="css-t3i5e6" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU"><rect x="22.67" width="6" height="36" id="el_lf9GrROk6j"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_kYNRGDfcw" class="css-t9te0w" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_3c3bzSjOJ" class="css-1r5375t" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw"><rect x="11.33" width="6" height="36" id="el_-iueO8klO0"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_y_fKcpSxn" class="css-qknaag" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_R6bNB6_Ys" class="css-1vd04" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC"><rect width="6" height="36" id="el_dS5TKNZZ5w"></rect></g></g></g></svg></div><div><div class="css-1t7yl1y">0:00<!-- -->/<!-- -->21:08</div><div class="css-og85jy">-<!-- -->21:08</div></div></div></div></hear><div class="css-uzyn7p"><div class="css-1vxyw"><p class="css-1nng8z9">transcript</p><h2 class="css-9wqu2x">Morn Love Podst: The Right to Fail at Marriage</h2><h3 class="css-eq21">Hosted by Daniel Jon and Miya Lee; produced by Julia Botero and Elyssa Dudley, wh help om Hans Buetow; eded by Sara Sarasohn; mic by Dan Powell; mixed by Corey Schreppel.</h3><h4 class="css-qsd3hm">The queer edian Cameron Esposo on how the equaly of love n also lead to the equaly of heartbreak.</h4><time dateTime="2021-06-23T20:21:47.000Z" class="css-1e605">2021-06-23T16:21:47-04:00</time></div><dl class="css-p98d0w"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">[theme mic]</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd"></p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">From The New York Tim, I’m Miya Lee.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">dan jon</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I’m Dan Jon. This is the Morn Love podst.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today’s episo is about divorce and about how thgs n break, even if you have the bt tentns and make the bt effort.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">dan jon</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, ’s about the equaly of love, but also the equaly of heartbreak.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The say is lled, “New Hope, New Pa, Same Old Divorce.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">dan jon</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And ’s both wrten and read by Cameron Esposo.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">[mic]</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd"></p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">meron poso</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">One of the last thgs I did before leavg the home we had ma together was pull the 5-foot portra of our fac out of the closet. What is one supposed to do wh oversized portraure the event of adversy? The picture was a gift btowed by work executiv when we beme the first married same-sex uple to -star and -create a televisn show, “Take My Wife.” It went up on our wall as a joke. Who would ever hang such a gdy object?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But I quickly got ed to . I love that gdy object, I thought, sippg seltzer om one of our Mrs. Highball glass. I got those at Crate and Barrel, where I marveled that they were sellg equaly ephemera, like Mrs. and Mrs. rg dish. I already had a rg dish. I never took my rg off. Instead, I went wh the highball glass. So pardon my surprise when a few years later, there I was, rgls, pullg a giant photo of my gay face om our closet. Well, my closet. Ugh. I’m not gog to make that closet joke.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">After they moved out — that’s a sgular “they” — the closets stayed our closets my md, even if now only populated by my stuff. The spac where their thgs had been seemed to glow, as if l by the sun of my sadns. Here’s where the “The L Word” DVDs were. And this cleaner-than-the-rt rectangle of wall was formerly vered by an art prt they got llege. It was like livg a relatnship pa mm. I was the docent givg tours to no one.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I hate this divorce bee I really loved beg married. And I hadn’t shed to marriage. I waed 13 years and 10 partners to marry the person I thought I would be wh until one of croaked, or, preferably, until we croaked simultaneoly at 90, holdg hands and listeng to Tegan and Sara.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Back 2004, I sat on the steps at Boston Cy Hall wh my then-girliend, watchg and cheerg as a steady trickle of pneerg newlyweds emerged victor.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Tonight, gay upl throughout Massachetts are celebratg a day many thought might never e.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">meron poso</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— the first legally married same-sex upl the whole untry. 22 years old and a week om llege graduatn, I turned to my girliend and said, “Should we jt do ?” She was the woman whose kiss opened my ey to my own queer heart. But ever ratnal, she said no. I didn’t ph for to tie the knot. The mood was powerful, but I felt fairly certa pre-graduatn marriage wasn’t for me. We spl wh a year, which felt impossible at the time.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">A few girliends later 2008, I also didn’t marry the woman I loved. We met when she was on a stunt visa, which turned to a work visa, which then was set to expire. By the time an immigratn lawyer said there was no way to extend her stay, we were livg together. We uldn’t legally marry Illois, where we lived. And any pre-feral marriage benefs wouldn’t have qualified her for a green rd anyway. She went home to another ntent, and I briefly followed her there, where we uld have been married, where I uld have stayed.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But I me back. My standup reer was bloomg Chigo, and I chose standup, which is where, 2010, I met my future spoe at a standup show. We started as -workers, beme iends. I fell hard, mted harr. And soon we moved to Los Angel. The day DOMA was overturned, my father heard on the rad and pulled over on his way to work to ll wh ngratulatns.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">A few months later, on top of a mounta we uld hike to om our beloved starvg artist apartment, my future spoe got down on one knee, and I said y.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">We married two years later at a rock club alongsi iends, fay and a buffet of Chigo-style hot dogs.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">When pronounced spoe and spoe, we raised our clasped hands, jt like I’d seen those first legally married queer upl do over a before. After our first dance, we stayed on the dance floor all night. Friends and fay kept askg how long we had practiced our slow dance — the spng, flickg, flgg, and dippg. We hadn’t. That’s jt how well-sued we are, I thought. And we were both sus.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I was 35. I didn’t marry too young or m bee of extenuatg circumstanc. I took my time, chose well and was the bt gay I uld be along the way — out, proud and social jtice-md wh an aggrsively queer haircut. I fought for our space and our rights alongsi so many others. And the end, none of that kept my marriage together. Somehow, the only part of my Catholic upbrgg that seems to have survived my youth is the feelg that divorce is wrong, preventable and my flt.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I’ve wonred: Should I have been gayer, waed longer, chosen not to date so I wouldn’t have to feel this pa, married everyone I dated so this wouldn’t be such a shock? Huiatg as this is for me to adm as an artist, I grew up a serly stable home. My parents have been together for over 50 years, are bt iends and share one pair of garng clogs.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I have no ame of reference for dissolutn, except for what I’ve seen movi. And there isn’t a Beyoncé song about beg two pennt adults who share a iend group, a bs tert, and a button-down shirt llectn, but n’t make work. Do you know how sry is to exist beyond the edge of the Beyoncé talog? Terrifyg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">A lot of that terror om fear that I wasted the moment which I get to live. My adulthood led up wh the fastt civil rights movement history, one that appli to me directly. I expected stris my personal life to match our stris eedom. I expected to perfectly navigate marriage like some sort of a lbian phoenix that never stops risg. Then I remembered the phoenix bts aga and aga. Maybe the Is story is more appropriate. All I know is, my wgs broke, I’m tired and my life isn’t what I thought would be. For the first time, I am down for the unt.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I took the ial rejectn of my queerns by fay, iends and my fah and ed to bee famoly gay. My past is rife wh moments when I got cut om the swim team and the next year ma pta, or, more serly, wrote an hour of material about my own sexual asslt to raise money for rape crisis terventn. My life has been typified by my obssn wh beg a survivor, the eback kid. But this year has been a full stop.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I miss the person I tsted wh my squishy, small ner self. And I miss the safety that me wh beg an example of queerns done right our outsi-the-home life. I n’t sleep. When I do, I relive the loss my dreams. In my wakg, I drag myself om place to place, unable to force a purpose or a lson or a next chapter. This is the year of my life when I put an Alka Seltzer to a La Croix to see if the extra bubbl would help wh my nervo digtn, when I downed a dose of my dog’s CBD oil durg particularly bad somnia, and when I took a spoon rvg class to see if spoons and rvg uld solve my pa.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I gus, some ways, this is what I was fightg for — the right to be queer and human, to have the privileg straight people enjoy, like the privilege to be imperfect and fail. My queerns liv wh a larger history of adaptatn over perfectn. Ours is a history marked by new kds of fai, new kds of trma, new kds of healg, new pronouns, new moments of hope, and new typ of pa. We are chosen fay. We are iends wh our ex. We are marked by liv filled wh many lov.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">We are human. I am human, knocked down and flawed and sad and gay and proud and sometim ee.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The Mrs. glass are gone. The rg is off.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The giant portra is storage, bee how n you throw somethg like that out? But at least my closet feels like ’s tly me. And maybe the future, I’ll share aga.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">[mic]</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd"></p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Cameron is sharg her closet aga, this time wh her new wife, Katy Nishimoto. The uple was recently married at their home Los Angel.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">dan jon</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">After the break, we’ll hear a Ty Love Story about a small gture that helped to heal the wounds of divorce.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hi, Gayle.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">gayle branis</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hi.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">How’s gog?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">gayle branis</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Good. How are you dog?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Pretty well. This is one of my favore Ty Love Stori ever.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">gayle branis</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Aw, thank you.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m Gayle Branis, and I wrote the Ty Love Story, “Here’s a Chair for You.” I was exced for my elst son’s engagement party. I was also nervo, havg not seen my ex-hband five years. Mid-celebratn, I looked up om my cup of ld nut soup to see my eight-year-old son Asher — om my send marriage — rry a chair over to my ex, who was standg next to his send wife. My ex startled at the sudn chair behd him. Then he turned to Asher, a child who wouldn’t exist had I not broken my ex-hband’s heart, and sed.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So lovely. You wrote that your son Asher would not have existed had you not broken your ex-hband’s heart. Can you tell me the story behd that?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">gayle branis</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sure. I had been wh my first hband for 20 years, startg om when I was 19. We met when I was a sophomore llege. And we were together for 20 years. But that time, I was growg and changg. And I realized that I wasn’t the same person who had fallen love wh him. And I had this unual experience where I took my dghter to an dn for a play. And the assistant director asked me if I wanted to dn, too, bee they need more adults the productn, and I end up wh the lead role.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Wow.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">gayle branis</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And — to my shock.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Amazg. What play was ?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">gayle branis</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It was “Annie, Get Your Gun.” So I played Annie Oakley.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">gayle branis</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You know, who’s very unlike me. I’m a really quiet, shy person. And here I was, playg this root, toot’ sharpshooter. It jt brought me way out of my fort zone. And the whole experience helped me realize I was pable of more than I gave myself cred for. And so I jt felt the shifts si of me. And tertgly, the man who played my -star is my hband now.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I had no sense that somethg like that would happen someday. But there was a scene when he said, “I’m gog to marry you, Annie.” And there was a voice si of me that said, “Y, you are,” which is so weird, bee there was no reason to thk that was the se.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Wow.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">gayle branis</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I had had the sort of hidn rervatns about my marriage for a while that I hadn’t realized. And I started acknowledgg the thgs that I had not been allowg myself to really face my own marriage. And was a big surprise to my hband —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Wow.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">gayle branis</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— at the time, my first hband, that I was unhappy. He was pretty bldsid by the whole move away om him.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">gayle branis</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So we jt kd of pletely drifted away om each other. And then when this engagement party me around, I felt really nervo about seeg him and havg not even heard his voice for five years.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so what was like to see him for the first time after so long?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">gayle branis</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, was not jt an engagement party. It was a Laotian engagement ceremony as well. My dghter--law’s parents are om Laos. And they had this wonrful tradnal ceremony. And I was nng late. And as soon as I got the door, I had to participate the ceremony, where I had to stand si by si wh my ex-hband. And so we stood si by si. And we had to walk to the hoe. It was my dghter--law’s parents’ hoe. And we prented the offergs to our dghter--law-to-be’s parents.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">We said a quick hello, but didn’t really talk to each other at that pot, and then sort of went our separate ways at the party — which was jt a betiful backyard party. And jt happened to look over, and I had been tryg not to look toward my ex-hband very much durg the time, jt bee ma me nervo to see him.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I saw this betiful scene of my ltle eight-year-old son jt givg this gture of kdns — rryg this seat over to the man who had been my hband — so my ex-hband uld s next to his wife. And seeg my ex-hband se at this boy, who, like I say the piece, wouldn’t exist had I not stepped away om that marriage, felt very healg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. And so then what happened next?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">gayle branis</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Somethg my heart jt kd of relaxed at that pot, where I felt like the two parts of my life uld weave together a way, that there uld be a bridge between . And was so betiful that my son created that bridge, jt through this ltle, sweet, simple act of generosy, so that once we got to the weddg felt like everyone was happy to be the same space. And was jt such a betiful celebratn of love, so betiful and healg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thank you so much for sharg all this.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">gayle branis</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thank you so much for havg me. It’s been a te pleasure.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">[mic]</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd"></p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Morn Love is produced by Julia Botero wh help om Hans Buetow and Elyssa Dudley. It’s eded by Sara Sarasohn. The executive producer is Wendy Dorr. This episo was mixed by Corey Schreppel.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">dan jon</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">This week’s say was wrten and read by Cameron Esposo. And Gayle Branis wrote our Ty Love Story.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Special thanks to Julia Simon, Mahima Chablani, Vicki Merrick, Bonnie Wertheim, Anya Strzemien, Sam Dolnick, Choire Sicha and Ryan Wegner at Audm.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">dan jon</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m Dan Jon.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">miya lee</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I’m Miya Lee. We’ll be back next week wh more stori om Morn Love.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">dan jon</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thanks for listeng.</p></dd></dl></div></div></div></div><div style="posn:absolute;width:0;height:0;visibily:hidn;display:none"></div><hear class="css-1vwfk9f" data-breakpot=""><div style="width:100%" data-ttid="flt-layout"><div style="background-image:url()" class="css-197zlhc e1llfg0"><div class="css-1hmsypo e1llfg2"><div class="css-131hid3 e1llfg3"><div class="css-1uhi299 e1llfg1"></div><div class="css-1tloyb6"><div class="css-ah35qo ehra6vc0"><a href=" class="css-2ne0py"><span class="css-1f76qa2"><img alt="Morn Love logo" src="><span>Morn Love</span></span></a><span class="css-17nzab0 ehra6vc1"><span class="css-sj5ozi ehra6vc2">Subscribe:</span><ul class="css-hx5n"><li><a href=" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Apple Podsts</a></li><li><a href=" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Rad Public</a></li></ul></span></div></div><div class="css-1r0dpua e1llfg4"><div class="css-wfiq9c edye5kn0"><div><h1 class="css-15oz550 edye5kn2">Morn Love Podst: The Right to Fail at Marriage</h1><h2 class="css-syyj5g edye5kn3">The queer edian Cameron Esposo on how the equaly of love n also lead to the equaly of heartbreak.</h2></div><span class="css-xpptmx edye5kn4">Hosted by Daniel Jon and Miya Lee; produced by Julia Botero and Elyssa Dudley, wh help om Hans Buetow; eded by Sara Sarasohn; mic by Dan Powell; mixed by Corey Schreppel.</span><button type="button" class="css-w62hzm" aria-haspopup="te" aria-label="Show Aud Transcript"><div class="css-1vd84sn"><svg xmlns=" width="24" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 20" fill="#F8F8F8"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M0 0H24V20H0V0ZM3 7H21V9H3V7ZM21 11H3V13H21V11ZM3 15H21V17H3V15ZM11 3H3V5H11V3Z" fill="#F8F8F8"></path></svg><span class="css-16bt4xd">Transcript</span></div></button></div><div class="css-1g7y0i5 e1drnplw0"><button tabx="100" class="css-1rtlxy" type="button" aria-label="close"><svg width="60" height="60" viewBox="0 0 60 60" fill="none"><circle cx="30" cy="30" r="30" fill="whe" fill-opacy="0.9"></circle><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M38.4844 20.1006L39.8986 21.5148L21.5138 39.8996L20.0996 38.4854L38.4844 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M21.5156 20.1006L20.1014 21.5148L38.4862 39.8996L39.9004 38.4854L21.5156 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path></svg></button><div class="css-rdbib0 e1drnplw1"></div><div class="css-18ow4sz e1drnplw2"><div aria-labelledby="modal-tle" role="regn"><hear class="css-1bzlfz"><div class="css-mln36k" id="modal-tle">transcript</div><button type="button" class="css-1igvuto"><div class="css-f40pzg"></div><span>Back to Morn Love</span></button><div class="css-f6lhej" data-ttid="transcript-playback-ntrols"><div class="css-1ialerq"><button tabx="99" type="button" class="css-1t9gw" aria-label="play"><svg xmlns=" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M8 13.7683V6L14.5 9.88415L8 13.7683Z" fill="var(--lor-ntent-sendary,#363636)"></path><circle cx="10" cy="10" r="9.25" stroke="var(--lor-stroke-primary,#121212)" stroke-width="1.5"></circle></svg></button><div class="css-1701swk"><svg xmlns=" viewBox="0 0 40 36" id="el_0kpS9qL_S"><tle>bars

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