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class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="has-dropp has-dropp__lead-standard-headg">In his new book, “<a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">The Engagement: Ameri’s Quarter-Century Stggle Over Same-Sex Marriage</a>,” the journalist Sasha Issenberg chronicl one of our untry’s most recent civil-rights battl, tracg the evolutn of the e om 1990, when started to bee a polil movement, to s ratifitn by the Supreme Court, 2015. Issenberg’s subjects are the activists, policians, and judicial figur who, tentnally or not, found themselv at s foreont. That gay marriage would bee legal after only a twenty-five-year fight, Issenberg wr, “was beyond the wilst hop of gay-rights activists jt years before.” The book attempts to expla why this mpaign succeed so quickly and how relig nservativ advertently furthered a e they passnately opposed.</p><p class="paywall">I recently spoke by phone wh Issenberg, who has prevly wrten about the science behd polil mpaigns and electns. Durg our nversatn, which has been eded for length and clary, we discsed what ma the stggle for gay marriage distct om other civil-rights movements, how Tmp’s electn shifted the foc of social nservatism away om sexual polics, and what this fight n tell about future civil-rights battl.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>How is the stggle for gay marriage Ameri different om other stggl for civil rights Amerin history?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I thk the obv thgs that we want to pare to are the movements for racial equaly and for women’s rights. And one sential element is that, unlike race and genr, people generally have the abily to ntrol the circumstanc unr which they acknowledge and disclose the fact that they are gay or lbian. And so the procs of g out, which is the unrlyg social enge of a lot of the opn change that leads to polil and legal victori, is somethg that’s available to members of the gay and lbian muny that is not available to Ain-Amerins or to women, their .</p><p class="paywall">And I still n’t ci whether this is a profound observatn or a banal one, but most gay people are born to straight people—which means that they are, one prum, evenly distributed across the populatn, which is to say that they’re not geographilly ncentrated, that the likelihood of anybody the untry g to know somebody as a neighbor or a fay member or a classmate who’s gay or lbian is probably more or ls equally distributed. And we’ve seen across gay-rights issu, not jt marriage, that the bt predictor of liberal attus has always been how somebody answers the qutn “Do you have a iend, fay member, or -worker who’s gay or lbian?”</p><p class="paywall"><strong>What do your first observatn—that people n choose when they e out—mean practice?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-1 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">That people get some gree of cultural or social acceptance, then feel fortable g out, and then the people around them regnize that they know somebody who’s gay or lbian. I thk ’s ls likely that you’re, like, “Oh, voilà, my neighbor’s Black.” Or, “I jt learned that my kid’s schoolteacher’s a woman. Now I’m gog to revis how I thk about issu that perta to them.” One of the thgs that make very easy for people to grow more liberal on the marriage qutn—as basilly forty per cent of the Amerin populatn has, over a generatn—is that don’t ask the majory to give up much to the mory, which has been a central source of polil ictn around a lot of other civil-rights or social-jtice movements.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>You cid to ver both activists and big polil actors like the Supreme Court. Was there a reason you felt you had to do the si stggle and the outsi stggle?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Yeah. I mean, I thk that this is someplace where wrg about marriage is different than wrg about the entirety of the gay-rights movement. There was a much longer perd of the broar qut for equal rights for gays and lbians, when activists were operatg whout much acknowledgment om, reactn om, and teractn wh the polil class or stutns. And so I thk when people have wrten histori of gay activism the neteen-fifti or sixti or seventi, there are far fewer policians or judg there. The story I tell starts 1990. And at that pot there was hardly anybody who was an activist for same-sex-marriage rights. No signifint gay-rights group the untry had endorsed marriage as an objective. And end up the hands of the Hawaii Supreme Court. And, by 1996, this was ont of Congrs and the Print. Marriage was an issue that ma the jump. Activists did not spend s toilg obscury at the periphery of our polics tryg to get people to pay attentn to this. It land the laps of powerful people pretty quickly after emerged as a kd of viable policy objective.</p><div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--article-mid-ntent" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--article-mid-ntent nsumer-marketg-un__slot---ntent"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><p class="paywall"><strong>The way we normally tell stori about civil rights this untry is that there’s a ph for civil rights, and then there’s a reactnary backlash to that—which has effects of s own. But one of the tertg thgs about your book, I thought, was that a way you’re sayg that the backlash to gay marriage helped the gay-marriage e, or phed along. And the normal story we tell is reversed some way.</strong></p><div class="Contaer-bkChBi byNLHx"></div><p class="paywall">Yeah. So, this big victory at the Hawaii Supreme Court leads to the Defense of Marriage Act, which is clearly a form of backlash agast this signifint, but lol, victory Hawaii. Then all of a sudn Congrs and the Print are preëmptively fg marriage for one of the first tim feral law. And we see a slight h to the pollg support for gay marriage. Somethg siar happens 2003 after the Massachetts Supreme Court l favor of marriage: public opn dips aga, and you get an active ph for a feral marriage amendment eventually supported by the Bh Whe Hoe, and a blossomg of the state-level nstutnal bans. And I thk you n look at what happened California 2008, where the California Supreme Court orrs that same-sex upl have the right to marry and, wh six months, Proposn 8 has passed at the ballot box, takg away that right.</p><p class="paywall">So there were exampl of backlash all over this story, but, over the longer arc of this, the backlash end up provg unterproductive. So, the mid-neteen-neti, anti-gay activists on the maland who rpond to this urt cisn Hawaii end up unifyg a gay-rights movement that had been unvted marriage as a e and actured iologilly over as a strategic proposn—over the tra-offs, terms of cremental gas that would have to be put asi the qut for marriage rights. And, all of a sudn, some gay-rights activists who had been prcipled opponents of seekg marriage ci that, bee their opponents want to ny them that right, they feel basilly obliged to fight for .</p><p class="paywall"><strong>It’s not a bad argument, right? It’s, like, people want to take somethg away om you, you should damn well want to fight for </strong>.</p><p class="paywall">Yeah. It’s also the nature of aln polics. And gays and lbians and bisexuals and transgenr people were a aln, and their opponents cid that what was wh that aln had been a niche issue but was now gog to be the primary area which they were gog to fight. They basilly end up advertently bag the whole aln to fendg somethg they hadn’t wanted to fend. Then the level at which this nflict uld be rolved changed.</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><asi class="PersistentAsiWrapper-VGrR daRVRt persistent-asi" style="posn:absolute;top:to;height:to" data-ttid="PersistentAsiWrapper"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="dbhpfj"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></asi></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="rqxsg"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">And that’s bee marriage had been, wh very few exceptns Amerin history—like when Congrs banned polygamy, or when the Supreme Court overturned state laws banng terracial marriage—somethg that had been left to the stat. And there’s a unterfactual where, if nservativ had not natnalized this issue, would have played out very slowly, state by state. This go om beg a qutn that uld have played out fifty state judiciari and state legislatur, and stead be somethg that ne Jtic n le on. And tak a while to see , but that ends up beg a huge strategic miscue by same-sex-marriage opponents that mak really easy for same-sex-marriage supporters to w natnally.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-2 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>The marriage movement advanced a fairly nservative objective—and did so the midst of the <em class="small">AIDS</em> crisis. I know that the ia spl more radil activists, such as Larry Kramer, whom you scribe as an early supporter of marriage equaly. How did divis the gay-rights movement manift themselv the marriage fight?</strong></p><p class="paywall">There were fely cleavag wh the movement over marriage. To the extent that people were batg same-sex marriage the neteen-eighti, was a circle of gay and lbian lawyers and legal theorists. The folks dog what we would ll L.G.B.T. fay law then were at the time overwhelmgly lbian lawyers reprentg lbian clients, who were ually women who had had children a heterosexual marriage, e out of the closet, left their hbands, and had to go to urt to fight for their own blogil children. And some of those lawyers had gone to llege and law school and been shaped by send-wave femism, and they saw marriage as an stutn that was tablished to subjugate women. And so there was this crique of marriage as an sentially patriarchal, heteronormative stutn.</p><p class="paywall">The objective for many of the fay-law typ was a legal regime that valued what they lled multiple fai—which was to say, a legal regime which the law treated equally a broad spectm of faial arrangements, so not jt pairgs of any genr batn but sgle parents and unmarried people habatg, and munal livg, and they saw the goal of gay and lbian fai as openg up the range of relatnships the ernment regnized.</p><p class="paywall">And there was also a related but separate ph, which grew out of the liberatnist impuls of gay polics the neteen-seventi—which argued that gays and lbians had adopted their own sexual valu and mor, and would be fundamentally regrsive to make a polil goal seekg acceptance what they saw as this middle-class, Amerin stutn, and the goal of gays and lbians should be to remake relatnships their own image, and not mand acceptance or assiatn.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>How central was the <em class="small">AIDS</em> movement to the cleavag</strong>?</p><p class="paywall">It magnified the extent to which gays and lbians were themselv a polil aln. <em class="small">AIDS</em> was overwhelmgly a problem for men the neteen-eighti more than women. Gay men were stantly forced to al wh all of the ath issu that had not really been prent—and certaly not part of the gay polil agenda. “Can I vis my partner the hospal?” “What happens to my property when I die?” That was not somethg lbians were facg the same way. But a lot of lbians were focsed on the life qutns. A lot of them had had children heterosexual marriag, and had to fight to adopt their own children, and saw that the urts held their sexualy agast them. And so, as the neteen-eighti end, they had divergent sets of material ncerns volvg the law.</p><p class="paywall">There is an important se that go to the New York Court of Appeals lled Braschi, where two men were livg a rent-stabilized apartment: one of them di, almost certaly of <em class="small">AIDS</em>, and the landlord tri to evict the survivg partner, and they challenge unr New York’s stabilizatn statute, and the urt l that two men who live together qualify as close fay members. That was a ncern that was clearly motivated by <em class="small">AIDS</em> that would not have been a legal e years earlier.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I thk, generally, when people thk of the stggle for gay marriage, they often thk about the relative speed wh which was acplished pared wh other stggl Amerin history. Do you thk that n be replited other movements?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-3 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">I thk there are certaly some stctural, tactil cisns that same-sex-marriage supporters ma that helped lead them to victory. And that, broadly, there are lsons that other mpaigners or social movements n adopt. But the ia that there’s a kd of off-the-shelf manual for twenty-five years of social change. . . .</p><p class="paywall">One important thg is there’s an anizatn lled Freedom to Marry, which was a sgle-issue mpaign anizatn wh one goal: equal marriage rights across fifty stat and the District of Columbia. And, up until this pot, the major players L.G.B.T. polics, the Human Rights Campaign, the Natnal Gay and Lbian Task Force, and a lot of state-level anizatns, have a really broad panoply of issu that they are vted . They reprent a aln that is fairly broad, basilly sexual mori, and have a whole lot of issu that they’re workg on: they’re tryg to stop hate crim, they’re tryg to get regnn for fai, they’re tryg to allow gays and lbians to serve the ary, a whole bunch of thgs. It’s been a recurrg trope among gay-rights activists that the Human Rights Campaign, the most wealthy and proment of the gay-rights groups, is too focsed on the si game, too focsed on wng accs, raisg money. Some activists believe that the gay-rights movement as a whole did not fight strongly enough agast the Defense of Marriage Act or agast the feral marriage amendment bee the Human Rights Campaign wasn’t ready to fight and that this was evince of their acmodatnist sort of approach to polics.</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="sqqro9"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">It’s clear that the H.R.C. was always actg, I thk, que ratnally, that they had had a broad set of issu that they red about, and they tend to e fluence Washgton stutns to get . And they had to weigh the mers of fightg over marriage wh the mers of tryg to get progrs on other issu. When Freedom to Marry along, they don’t have to make those promis. And so they are able to velop a strategy that’s not based on tra-offs between “If we ph for marriage this state, will step back our efforts to get a nondiscrimatn ordance passed?” And Freedom to Marry said, “We’re gog to put ourselv out of bs after we meet our goal,” which they did after the Supreme Court led 2015. And that is not the way that most tert groups are set up. They’re set up basilly to perpetuate themselv. And that means that they are havg to weigh not jt their policy objectiv, but their donors and their members and their long-term stabily.</p><p class="paywall">And I thk rais a lot of qutns. Where would gun laws be if, stead of havg the broad gun-ntrol anizatns, a group is focsed solely on background checks?</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Probably the same place, but your pot may still be rrect.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Yeah. But I thk that the natural physics of tert-group polics and alns is to make them bigger. And if you really are focsed on one discrete policy objective, the bigns and broadns of those groups n be self-featg.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Well, this also go to your earlier pot, that the relig right did the e of gay rights a favor by makg more about one specific thg.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Yeah. They helped set up the terms of a bate, and then, later, gay-rights activists wh big donors built an astcture that uld fight the nflict on those terms.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-4 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>We were talkg about backlash earlier, and you mentn near the end of the book that a backlash to gay marriage hasn’t really happened the way one often expects. How do you unrstand that?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I thk there are a few elements here. One is that anti-gay activists were not surprised when the Obergefell cisn me down 2015. It looked almost fated, based on the urt’s earlier lg and the way that had handled appeals to circu-urt cisns. So I don’t thk that there was the emotnal letdown on the day of the cisn that would’ve galvanized some opposn. And, bee of that, many of those activists had already begun to move to an area where they still had strength, where the public opn looked a lot more like did around gay marriage twenty years ago—which is trans issu. And so they basilly said, “We have lost the gay-marriage fight, but we have this nearby place where we n manufacture nflict om a posn of strength.” And many of the same stutns that had been fightg over gay marriage all of a sudn jt started fightg over issu related to transgenr people.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>That was gog to be my next qutn—to what gree is a cince that trans issu have bee more proment the past five years?</strong></p><p class="paywall">There was all this pacy that had been built. I mean, part of the story of how we end up fightg about gay marriage the neteen-neti is that the gay-rights movement and the relig right grew up more or ls parallel the late seventi and beme profsnalized and well fund through the eighti. By the neti, the gay-rights movement was a central part of the Democratic-left aln, and the relig right was a central player Republin polics. And they had veloped pacy for nflict. They were basilly on a llisn urse. And the only qutn was: What were they gog to fight over? And this popped up on the radar as the thg that they started to fight over.</p><p class="paywall">I thk what happened twenty years later, around the time of the 2015 Supreme Court lg, was that the alns were bigger and stronger many rpects, more entrenched, and still need somethg to fight over. Relig nservativ had lost their posn of strength for a variety of reasons—opn change, mographic chang. And then they cid that they were gog to go to trans issu stead.</p><p class="paywall">The other part of is the smology of relig nservativ shifted wh the feat over same-sex marriage, where they may have ced the broar culture wars. There’s a reason Jerry Falwell lled his anizatn the Moral Majory. The kd of motivatg nce of relig-nservative activism through the eighti and neti, and much of the two-thoands, was based on the ia that there’s a Juo-Christian majory the untry and the laws of the Uned Stat should reflect s valu. And losg the nflict over gay marriage, I thk, persuad many of those relig nservativ that they were not, fact, the majory—that now you don’t have to watch more than ten mut of Fox News to unrstand that the smology of the current Amerin right is that they are a bieged mory, unr siege by the urts, and amia, and Hollywood. And, once they began to thk of themselv as a bieged mory, they started dog what bieged mori do our nstutnal system, which is to ask the urts for protectn. And that tak the form of the relig-liberty exemptns, which is basilly an acknowledgment of the ncsn of feat the broar stggle.</p></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="u6tj4"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="889cz"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bjczjj grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">The third part of the puzzle is Donald Tmp. In June, 2015, the two thgs happened. June 16th is when Donald Tmp announc his mpaign for Print. On the 26th of June, the Obergefell cisn down. If you had told me advance that a major civil-rights cisn was gog to land that overturned state laws that had been mocratilly enacted by the rints of Alabama the same month that one of the most talented magogu Amerin history was gog to announce his mpaign for Print, I would have assumed that those two thgs would bee terrelated some really dangero, sry ways, and they didn’t.</p><p class="paywall">Donald Tmp had an stct and a tremendo gift for ptg Amerins agast one another, and he cis he’s gog to n for Print and talk about Mexins and Mlims and women and immigrants, but he has no natural bile for gays and lbians. There are a lot of ways which his Admistratn later set back gay rights, but he did not want to talk about those issu. I thk, jt given the way that that primary played out, ndidat like Ted Cz or Rick Santom or Mike Huckabee or Bobby Jdal—who otherwise would have been highly cled to cheerlead a backlash to marriage sce the Obergefell cisn—regnized pretty quickly that that’s not where the news was the summer of 2015.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-5 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>You wrote an <a href=">op-ed</a> last weekend the <em>Tim</em> which was headled “Cancel Culture Works: We Wouldn’t Have Marriage Equaly Whout It.” For the book, you went back and looked at the different ways that gay-rights anizatns and gay-rights activists shamed, shunned, and boytted opponents of same-sex marriage. Do you feel that you’re seeg some of the same tactics that are today labelled “ncel culture,” or do you feel like those activists avoid what crics of ncel culture fd so damagg today?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Yeah. Well, I’m glad we’re not gog to have a nversatn about what ncel culture means or don’t, bee I actually don’t really know. I thk that one of the big chang that take place the marriage bate is how the money dynamic shifts the years between 2008, when gay-marriage supporters suffered this massive setback when Proposn 8 passed California, and four years later, 2012, the first time they sweep four ballot measur. One of the big thgs is the extent to which the pro-gay-marriage si of the bate opened up a major fancial advantage over opponents. You had a clter of exceedgly wealthy gay donors, mostly gay whe men who had ma their money through tech or hered , who the two-thoands had bee uniquely terted marriage among all the issu on the agenda. By 2012, Mike Bloomberg was givg major ntributns. Jeff Bezos was givg major ntributns. You had a whole lot of Wall Street donors, cludg Republins, who were givg generoly as well.</p><p class="paywall">The other thg that’s happeng is big donors basilly abandon the other si of the fight: by 2012, ’s clear that the folks nng the effort to ban same-sex marriage are jt havg trouble gog to their normal donors, cludg archdc. There’s somethg about beg associated wh this issue that people don’t want to al wh, terms of media scty and acceptance among their peers the bs world. I thk so often this ncel-culture nversatn is played out over the propriety of , or the place of the tactics a liberal mocracy, and here’s this really important recent se study that shows actually works. Srg away proposns’ fancial backers through shame is somethg that n have a dramatic effect on the trajectory of a particular polil bate, and the Inter has ma much easier for dividuals to lnch and anize the typ of attacks.</p><le-embed name="" attrs="[object Object]" childTyp="" hasProducts="false" ntentType="llout:"><hr class="paywall"/><h2 class="paywall">More New Yorker Conversatns</h2><ul class="paywall"><li><a href=">Pam Grier</a> on the needs of Hollywood, and her own.</li><li><a href=">Alexey Navalny</a> has the proof of his poisong.</li><li><a href=">Chance the Rapper</a> is still figurg thgs out.</li><li>How <a href=">Ben Stiller</a> will remember his father.</li><li><a href=">Esther Perel</a> says that love is not a permanent state of enthiasm.</li><li><a href=">Ad-Rock</a> jt wants to be iends.</li><li><a href=">Fran Lebowz</a> is never leavg New York.</li><li>Sign up for our <a href=">newsletter</a> and never miss another New Yorker Interview.</li></ul></le-embed></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fVLMby grid--em grid-layout__asi"><div class="StickyBoxWrapper-jfYB jxBcTH sticky-box"><div class="StickyBoxPrimary-dzWDWL cdhYoN sticky-box__primary"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--rail"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--rail" data-no-id="4fe0jn"></div></div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--display-rail" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--display-rail"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><div class="StickyBoxPlaceholr-grPmrg dxAvXx"></div></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 PaywallInleBarrierWhWrapperGrid-fyrGfS kLQIUk grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="body body__le-barrier article__body"><div class="ntaer ntaer--body"><div 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grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div class="ContributorsWrapper-eNpWFu GWFsc ntributors" data-ttid="Contributors"><div class="ContributorBWrapper-bnVHbt gMon"><div class="ContributorBAvatar-bIGTqf eMWbvj"><a href="/ntributors/isaac-choter"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW jvZaPI rponsive-asset"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa rponsive-image"><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></picture></span></a></div><div class="ContributorBContent-ubQdr jZTSSi"><div class="ContributorBHear-ledood XOIEx"></div><div class="ContributorBB-fBolsO giFhKz"><a href="/ntributors/isaac-choter">Isaac Choter</a> is a staff wrer at The New Yorker, where he is the prcipal ntributor to Q. & A., a seri of terviews wh public figur polics, media, books, bs, technology, and more.</div><div class="ContributorBFooter-brqDlv ezUmSv"></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK kHBDeH grid grid-margs grid-ems-2 grid-layout--adrail narrow wi-adrail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM stRKV grid--em grid-layout__ntent"><div data-ttid="TagCloudWrapper" class="TagCloudWrapper-gGgndx ctyZyK ContentFooterTagCloud-krQmRG ZLGh"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudSectnHear-cOforY iUEiRd bPyAoD kQQRmu">More:</span><a href="/tag/civil-rights" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">Civil 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Why did reluctant acceptance turn to vlence?</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Louis Menand</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff ewgXAt summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm dqlGhv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="How Oh Voters Defeated an Effort to Thwart Abortn Rights" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl bcywvc summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Daily Comment</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">How Oh Voters Defeated an Effort to Thwart Abortn Rights</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="How Oh Voters Defeated an Effort to Thwart Abortn Rights" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">Opponents of the measure palized on fears of a Republin power grab.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Peter Slev</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff ewgXAt summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm dqlGhv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Voice-Overs om “Sex and the Space Statn”" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl bcywvc summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Shouts & Murmurs</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Voice-Overs om “Sex and the Space Statn”</div></a><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Teddy Wayne</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff ewgXAt summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm dqlGhv" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Sam Kerr and the Dream of an Atralian World Cup Tle" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl bcywvc summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">The Sportg Scene</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Sam Kerr and the Dream of an Atralian World Cup Tle</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Sam Kerr and the Dream of an Atralian World Cup Tle" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">The twenty-ne-year-old striker, one of the world’s great srers, has raised hop a untry where soccer was once an afterthought.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi cuRXdL summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ 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