The move by the inic natnal youth anizatn e two years after lifted a ban on openly gay youth. But lol troops and uncils will be allowed to ci for themselv whether to perm openly-gay volunteer lears
Contents:
- BOY SUTS LOST 2 LN MEMBERS SCE LIFTG BAN ON GAY YOUTH; NOW MIRED SEX ABE CLAIMS
- BOY SUTS OF AMERI ENDS BAN ON GAY AND LBIAN TROOP LEARS
- BOY SUTS OF AMERI VOT TO ALLOW GAY SUT LEARS
- BOY SUTS TO REPEAL BAN ON GAY LEARS, WH LIMATNS
- GAY BOY SUTS? WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR BOYS?
- BOY SUTS VOTE TO END BAN ON GAY SUTS; GAY ADULTS STILL BARRED
- BOY SUTS OF AMERI ENDS BAN ON GAY ADULT LEARS
- BOY SUTS END LONGTIME BAN ON OPENLY GAY YOUTHS
- WHAT DROPPG THE BAN ON GAY LEARS MEANS FOR THE BOY SUTS
- BOY SUTS TO ALLOW GAY YOUTHS TO JO
- BOY SUTS GAY BAN CONTROVERSY HIGHLIGHTS GROWG TUG-OF-WAR BETWEEN RIGHT AND LEFT
- BOY SUTS VOTE TO LIFT BAN ON GAY YOUTH
- BOY SUTS' REPEAL OF GAY BAN MIRRORS ITS APPROACH TO RACIAL INTEGRATN
- BOY SUTS TO ALLOW GAY YOUTHS, RULE TO ELIMATE SEXUAL ORIENTATN AS YOUTH MEMBERSHIP CRERN
- BOY SUTS OF AMERI VOT TO END NTROVERSIAL BAN ON OPENLY-GAY SUT LEARS
- BOY SUTS BEG ALLOWG GAY YOUTH SUTS
- BOY SUTS GAY LEAR BAN LIFTED, BUT ANTI-LGBT CULTURE REMAS AS FEWER CHILDREN JO HISTORIC YOUTH ORGANIZATN
- THE BOY SUTS: STILL ANTI-GAY AND SENDG A DANGERO MSAGE TO YOUTH
BOY SUTS LOST 2 LN MEMBERS SCE LIFTG BAN ON GAY YOUTH; NOW MIRED SEX ABE CLAIMS
On the heels of gay marriage legalizatn, the anizatn’s new policy allows lol uns to select their lears to appease both liberal and relig groups * boy scouts gay ban *
The reasons ced by the AP for the recent drop membership is petn om sports leagu, a perceptn that the BSA is old fashned and the BSA, however, has been steadily losg members, particularly om nservative Christian fai, sce 2013, when adopted an amendment that effectively lifts the ban on homosexual youth the an terview wh The Christian Post that year, Elizabeth Prchard, the pack mtee chair for Pack 928 Southlake, Texas, warned that the vote would acture the anizatn and sre away members who disagreed wh the lg. The natnal erng body of the Boy Suts of Ameri has end a blanket ban on gay adult lears while allowg church-sponsored Sut uns to mata the excln bee of their new policy, aimed at easg a ntroversy that embroiled the Boy Suts for years and threatened the anizatn wh lawsus, tak effect immediately. ”On 13 July, the anizatn’s executive mtee, head by print and former fense secretary Robert Gat, unanimoly approved the rolutn, sayg there had been a “sea change the law wh rpect to gay rights”.
”The vote took place only a month and a day after the US supreme urt legalized same-sex marriage throughout the US, strikg down state bans and punctuatg the swift progrs of gay rights wh s 5-4 board’s vote also follows only two years after a long and bter bate at the anizatn’s 2013 meetg Texas, where 60% of some 1, 400 sut lears voted to end the ban. The anizatn said at the time that had no tentns of revisg the earlier this year the New York Cy chapter hired a gay mp unsellor, and said would force the issue urt if necsary to keep the unsellor Boy Suts has about 2.
The erng body of the Boy Suts of Ameri voted Monday to end s s-long ban on gay sut anizatn's natnal executive board, meetg Texas, nclud that the policy of excludg gay adults "was no longer legally fensible.
BOY SUTS OF AMERI ENDS BAN ON GAY AND LBIAN TROOP LEARS
The erng body of the Boy Suts of Ameri voted Monday to end s s-long ban on gay sut lears. * boy scouts gay ban *
" The cisn was approved by 79 percent of the the natnal ban is gone, effective immediately, lol sutg uns reta the abily to reject gay applints for learship posns if hirg them would vlate the un's relig Boy Suts natnal anizatn said would fend any lol sutg group's "good fah refal" to adm a sutg lear based upon the group's relig prcipl.
"The vote reprents a remarkably fast turnaround for the Boy Suts, which only two years ago voted to adm gay young people as suts but kept the ban on adult gay sut then, sutg officials have said, rapidly movg legal velopments forced a told the anizatn May that mt brace for change.
"The vote allowg lol uns to turn away gay lears was nmned by some former Sut lears as a timid measure that would allow discrimatn to McGrah, a gay adult lear om wh the Transatlantic Council of Boy Suts of Ameri, lled the vote "an expedient move to preempt legal actn agast BSA natnal, rather than a genue attempt to make BSA clive.
BOY SUTS OF AMERI VOT TO ALLOW GAY SUT LEARS
The Boy Suts of Ameri is expected to end s ban on openly gay lears a limed manner Monday, a historic cisn for one of the natn's largt youth anizatns, whose s-long stggle over whether to clu gays s ranks has both mirrored and fueled the broar natnal bate over LGBT rights. * boy scouts gay ban *
"John Stemberger, a Florida lawyer who started a breakaway anizatn lled Trail Life USA after the 2013 vote to adm gay Suts, said by endg the natnal ban on gay sut lears, the Boy Suts "plac the church and relig stutns who sponsor BSA troops at greater legal risk.
BOY SUTS TO REPEAL BAN ON GAY LEARS, WH LIMATNS
Some gay rights advot ll the move a step forward, but others say the 103-year-old anizatn has sent the wrong msage to youth if ni membership to gay lears. * boy scouts gay ban *
"Today’s vote by the Boy Suts of Ameri to allow gay, lbian and bisexual adults to work and volunteer is a wele step toward erasg a sta on this important anizatn, " said Human Rights Campaign Print Chad Griff a statement after the vote. The Boy Suts of Ameri is expected to end s ban on openly gay lears a limed manner Monday, a historic cisn for one of the natn’s largt youth anizatns, whose s-long stggle over whether to clu gays s ranks has both mirrored and fueled the broar natnal bate over LGBT rights. Over the past two s, the anizatn has been creasgly embroiled by battl over whether to ntue excludg gays, a stance that has threatened the Suts wh the specter of stly ligatn and ed some rporate sponsors, cludg Merck, UPS, Uned Way and Intel to whdraw support.
In his speech, Gat said that a number of factors, cludg potential discrimatn lawsus, ternal disput over the policy and the impendg Supreme Court gay marriage cisn had nvced him that the le was untenable.
GAY BOY SUTS? WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR BOYS?
But church-sponsored sut uns will be able to mata the excln of gay adult lears bee of their fah * boy scouts gay ban *
May 23, 2013 — -- The Boy Suts of Ameri today voted to lift s longtime natnal ban on admtg openly gay Suts but will ntue to exclu openly gay adults om learship vote by s 1, 400 natnal membership me as no surprise to gay rights advot, who hailed as a first step to endg discrimatory practic the 103-year-old Boy Suts said that had pleted s "most prehensive listeng exercise Sutg's history" on the issue and will change s policy Jan. Still, she applds what she nsirs a "temporary" Oh Cub Sut Lear Fired for Beg Gay"I am enuraged, bee we fely are for the long hl, " Tyrrell, a 33-year-old mother of four told "Once the ban is lifted on youth, they will see their fears are unfound. "She said she would ntue to fight for other gay fai who wanted to be part of the others, such as former former Eagle Sut Jam Dale, who brought the lawsu agast the Boy Suts that ma all the way to the Supreme Court 2000, said the partial liftg of the ban mak the anizatn "ls relevant.
The Natnal Jewish Commtee on Sutg, the Epispal Church, the Uned Church of Christ, the Unarian Universalist Associatn and the Metropolan Communy Church all urged full repeal of the many other Christian groups stood firm prott, cg relig eedom and the prev Supreme Court 19, 000 past or current members of the Suts signed a petn om Alliance Defendg Freedom, which was livered to the Boy Suts this week, urgg to keep the Stemberger founr of, a group of former Suts, lears and parents who oppose liftg the ban, said the anizatn worried ls about sexual inty than gay activism. Stemberger said his group's attempts to distribute buttons and 1, 000 pi of a newspaper ad the Dallas Morng News to legat were thwarted by the Boy Suts secury guards who asked them to leave the hotel group had hoped to unter Boy Suts of Ameri Print Wayne Perry's op-ed piece USA Today urgg the legat to allow gay youth to be part of Sutg.
BOY SUTS VOTE TO END BAN ON GAY SUTS; GAY ADULTS STILL BARRED
The Boy Suts of Ameri voted to allow openly gay youths as members, while ntug s policy of excludg openly gay adult lears. * boy scouts gay ban *
At least a half dozen other stat are nsirg legislative Supreme Court is currently nsirg repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act and a challenge to the California ban on same-sex marriage, known as Proposn 's evince the gay ban has hurt the anizatn.
NEW YORK -- The Boy Suts of Ameri on Monday end s blanket ban on gay adult lears while allowg church-sponsored Sut uns to mata the excln for relig new policy, aimed at easg a ntroversy that has embroiled the Boy Suts for years, tak effect immediately. Several nomatns that llectively sponsor close to half of all Sut uns -- cludg the Roman Catholic church, the Mormon church and the Southern Baptist Conventn -- have been apprehensive about endg the ban on gay BSA's top lears have pledged to fend the right of any church-sponsored uns to ntue excludg gays as adult volunteers. -If otherwise qualified, a gay adult would be eligible to serve as a Sutmaster or un, who beme the BSA's print May 2014, said at the time that he personally would have favored endg the ban on gay adults, but he opposed any further bate after the Suts' policymakg body upheld the ban.
BOY SUTS OF AMERI ENDS BAN ON GAY ADULT LEARS
Jt over one year after liftg s ban on gay employe, the Boy Suts of Ameri announced would accept transgenr suts. * boy scouts gay ban *
Sce then, the exclnary policy has prompted numero major rporatns to spend charable donatns to the Suts, and has straed relatns wh some municipali that ver gays their non-discrimatn Upton, a lawyer for the LGBT-rights group Lambda Legal, qutned whether the BSA's new policy to let church-sponsored uns ntue to exclu gay adults would be staable.
The Boy Suts has lifted s ban on openly gay lears and employe, but has allowed relig chartered anizatns, which operate more than 70 percent of the Boy Suts Sutg uns, “to e relig beliefs as creria for selectg adult lears, cludg matters of sexualy, ” acrdg to their announcement. But the vote put the Suts more le wh the swift rise public acceptance of homosexualy, pecially among younger parents who are sential to the future of an stutn that has been losg members for policy change, effective January 2014, is unlikely to brg peace to the Boy Suts as they stggle to keep a foothold a swirlg cultural landspe, wh renewed lobbyg and bate already startg Thursday Suts did not nsir the even more divisive qutn of whether to allow openly gay adults and lears.
BOY SUTS END LONGTIME BAN ON OPENLY GAY YOUTHS
Last night, the Boy Suts of Ameri voted to end a ban on lears who are openly gay. The policy would allow exceptns for church-sponsored sut uns, but several relig anizatns are eher apprehensive or opposn. Gwen Ifill discs the change wh Zach Wahls, executive director of Suts for Equaly. * boy scouts gay ban *
This drew cricism om advot for gay rights, who lled the cisn a breakthrough but vowed to ntue prsg the Suts to allow gay members of all nservative church and parents said the Suts were vlatg their oath to be “morally straight” and said they would drop out. ”“This great stutn is gog to be viated by the tsn of a polil agenda, ” he the cisn was announced Thursday, John Stemberger, an evangelil lear om Florida who anized a mpaign to block the change, said that like-md groups and parents would meet next month Louisville, Ky., to discs creatg what he lled a new “character velopment anizatn for boys, ” an alternative to Gutierrez/Associated PrsGlaad, a gay-rights group that has mpaigned for change over the last year, said would keep prsure on the Boy Suts over the learship issue.
Several sponsors, cludg the UPS Foundatn, Merck, the Intel Foundatn, and many lol Uned Ways and cy agenci had already end fancg for the Suts bee the group’s polici vlated their own nondiscrimatn a closed meetg of the assembled legat here Wednday night, the top three lears of the Boy Suts — Wayne Brock, the paid chief executive; Wayne Perry, the volunteer print who is a rporate lear om Washgton State; and Ti Perez, the volunteer missner and a nsultant Florida — ma a strong plea to legat and dissentg board members to allow gay youths, sayg the goal of sutg was to reach as many boys as possible, acrdg to people who attend. But surveys this sprg, many parents and volunteers around the untry said they were agast the ia of openly gay sut Makela for The New York TimThe vote was a btersweet one for David Knapp, 86, who spent much of his life sutg as a boy, as a profsnal staff member and later as a volunteer wh a uncil Connecticut. Allison Mackey of Hanover, Pa., has five sons — one an Eagle Sut, three now active sutg and an 8-year-old who had planned to fay has discsed the issue and reached a cisn, she said: All the sons were willg to abandon the Boy Suts if openly gay members are allowed.
”A rrectn was ma onMay 25, 2013: An article on Friday about a cisn by the Boy Suts of Ameri to end a policy of forbiddg openly gay youths to participate s activi misstated the surname of a man who spent much of his life Sutg but said he was forced out bee of his sexual orientatn.
WHAT DROPPG THE BAN ON GAY LEARS MEANS FOR THE BOY SUTS
Openly gay youths will be allowed to jo sutg, a historic cisn the Boy Suts of Ameri says will keep uncloud by “a sgle, divisive, and unrolved societal issue.” * boy scouts gay ban *
"The Human Rights Campaign appld the cisn but lled on BSA to extend to “full LGBTQ cln for both employe and volunteers, ” notg that the policy change allowg gay employe and volunteers did not extend to transgenr adults.
“The rolutn also rerc that Sutg is a youth program, and any sexual nduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Sutg age is ntrary to the virtu of Sutg, ” the 103-year-old anizatn said a statement after the vote. When the Boy Suts of Ameri announced this week that was layg a cisn to end a ban on openly gay troops and lears, some noted that the anizatn seemed to be walkg a treachero Suts have long had a policy forbiddg openly gay children and adults om participatg the program, and more than a ago, the Supreme Court upheld s right to the ban.
BOY SUTS TO ALLOW GAY YOUTHS TO JO
Boy Suts Gay Ban Controversy Highlights Growg Tug-Of-War Between Right And Left * boy scouts gay ban *
But recent months, prsure om gay rights activists, rporate donors and relig anizatns has creased, and the Suts' cisn to lay a vote on endg the ban reveals the difficulty anizatns wh anti-gay polici face as gay rights bee creasgly mastream. Much of the prsure is g om rporate Ameri, which has shifted dramatilly over the last several years, creatg ternal polici that protect gay and lbian employe and publicly supportg same-sex marriage. " The Human Rights Campaign, a gay rights group, put out a prs release makg clear that pani who gave to the Suts would still not be eligible for a top sre on HRC's Corporate Equaly a statement announcg the cisn to lay a vote on the matter, the Boy Suts acknowledged the flood of ments received sce suggtg a change: "In the past two weeks, Sutg has received an outpourg of feedback om the Amerin public.
Michael Prengler / RtersGRAPEVINE, Texas -- The Boy Suts of Ameri voted Thursday to end s ntroversial policy banng gay kids and teens om jog one of the natn's most popular youth anizatns, dchg membership guil that had roiled the group recent 61 percent of Sutg's Natnal Council of 1, 232 legat om across the untry voted to lift the ban, BSA officials said.
BOY SUTS GAY BAN CONTROVERSY HIGHLIGHTS GROWG TUG-OF-WAR BETWEEN RIGHT AND LEFT
GRAPEVINE, Texas -- The Boy Suts of Ameri voted Thursday to end s ntroversial policy banng gay kids and teens om jog one of the natn's most popular youth anizatns, dchg membership guil that had roiled the group recent 61 percent of Sutg's Natnal Council of 1,232 legat om across the untry voted to lift the ban, BSA officials said. The f * boy scouts gay ban *
1, 2014, "allowg the Boy Suts of Ameri the transn time need to munite and implement this policy to s approximately 116, 000 Sutg uns, " the BSA said a the oute of the historic ballot is not gog to end the bate: Some opponents on the right said they would pull their sponsorships of packs and troops, and parents threatened to take their boys out of Sutg; LGBT activists said the policy change don't go far enough bee gay adults still wouldn't be allowed to mom Jennifer Tyrrell, who was oted April 2012 as n lear of her son's Tiger Cub pack bee she is a lbian, said was a step forward even though she wouldn't benef om the change. “Even though I thk that there will probably still be a few folks who choose to walk away … I thk this is the begng of the rebound of Sutg Ameri, ” he ban on gay Suts has been the subject of much soul-searchg the century-old anizatn – om lol troops and uncils to natnal board meetgs. The dispute was even heard by the Supreme Court, which said 13 years ago that as a private membership anizatn, the BSA was ee to ci who would summer, the Boy Suts reaffirmed their anti-gay policy after a two-year examatn by a mtee.
Web reacts to Suts liftg ban on gaysBoy Suts vote on gays: What's at stakeSuts propose allowg gay suts, but banng learsMormon church OK wh endg Suts' ban on gay youthMiranda Lesger and Jason Whe, NBC News. As Boy Suts of Ameri mull over whether to allow gay members to openly jo, their approach might mirror the leave--to-the-lols tack the anizatn once took cidg how to tackle the issue of segregatg s Sut troops.
BOY SUTS VOTE TO LIFT BAN ON GAY YOUTH
The Boy Suts are set to let lol troops ci on l for admtg gay members and lears, a policy siar to s approach to racial tegratn that many fd unsatisfactory. * boy scouts gay ban *
More om the Associated Prs: By DAVID CRARY and NOMAAN MERCHANT, The Associated PrsGRAPEVINE, Texas — The Boy Suts of Ameri's Natnal Council has voted to ease a long-standg ban and allow openly gay boys to be accepted as the lol Sut lears votg at their annual meetg Texas, more than 60 percent supported the the proposal drafted by the Suts' erng board, gay adults will rema barred om servg as Sut oute is unlikely to end a bter bate over the Suts' membership nservative church that sponsor Sut uns wanted to ntue excludg gay youths, some s threateng to fect if the ban were lifted.
More liberal Sut lears – while supportg the proposal to accept gay youth – have ma clear they want the ban on gay adults lifted as You GoKey Events In The Boy Suts' Gay BanPopular the CommunyYou May Like.
BOY SUTS' REPEAL OF GAY BAN MIRRORS ITS APPROACH TO RACIAL INTEGRATN
Boy Suts To Allow Gay Youths * boy scouts gay ban *
The Boy Suts of Ameri, facg ligatn, shrkg membership and sweepg acceptance of gay rights, voted Monday to lift s ban on openly gay troop lears and natnal anizatn will no longer allow discrimatn agast s paid workers or at BSA-owned facili.
”The executive board’s vote was taken at the suggtn of the group’s print, former fense secretary Robert Gat, who noted that the Suts are facg potential lawsus by gay adults who were shut out of posns. Some 70 percent of Boy Sut troops are n by fah-based groups, many om orthodox muni cludg Mormons, Catholics, Southern Baptists and Mlims who do not accept gay the march toward full equaly for gay and lbian Amerins has unfold wh unual speed, wh 25 stat acceptg gay marriage 2013 and 2014 before the U.
BOY SUTS TO ALLOW GAY YOUTHS, RULE TO ELIMATE SEXUAL ORIENTATN AS YOUTH MEMBERSHIP CRERN
* boy scouts gay ban *
Meanwhile, the Boy Suts experienced a 7 percent drop membership sce liftg s ban on openly gay Suts’ smaller executive mtee, whose members serve on the larger executive board, voted unanimoly earlier this month to perm openly gay adults to serve as new l approved Monday allow troops chartered by a relig anizatn — cludg church, mosqu and synagogu — to “ntue to choose adult lears whose beliefs are nsistent wh their own.
”Wahls, who is an Eagle Sut and executive director of the advocy group Suts for Equaly, said Monday’s vote will mean a “sigh of relief” for gay summer mp unselors or other adult volunteers who want to work wh, however, lled the fact that so many fah-based troops may ntue to ban openly-gay lears “disncertg … Sutg is a place to hone important life skills and a moral pass.
BOY SUTS OF AMERI VOT TO END NTROVERSIAL BAN ON OPENLY-GAY SUT LEARS
Boy Suts Opens Up To Gay Youth, But 'Change Won't Happen Overnight' * boy scouts gay ban *
We want to ntue to exist the future and orr to do that, people like me need to be at the table, ” he Boy Suts of Ameri is expected to lift s ban on openly gay youth lears amid what lls a "sea of change" on gay rights issu sweepg across the natn. 1, wh the century-old group facg nservative dissent om wh for makg the change and cricism om rights groups for not gog far of those upset by the change have joed socially nservative groups such as start-up Trail Life USA, which says "any sexual activy outsi the ntext of the venant of marriage between one man and one woman is sful before God" and ns unter to s re Boy Suts of Ameri (BSA) has also taken a fancial h, wh some proment rporate sponsors whdrawg support over the group's cisn to keep place a ban on homosexuals om servg as adult month, Lockheed Mart Corp, the top U. "We're pleased that the overwhelmg majory of our members, fai and chartered anizatns rema mted to the Boy Suts of Ameri, " Smh told of the change, BSA set up new guil on matters such as matag privacy when to showerg, drsg and sleepg policy change was adopted May 2013 by a majory vote of the BSA's Natnal Council, liftg the ban on openly gay suts the face of tense social left place a prohibn on gays servg as adult Sut Boy Suts have a natnal membership of about 2.
"Sutg is a youth program, and any sexual nduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Sutg age is ntrary to the virtu of Sutg, " n jo the Cub suts om the time they enter first gra, or about 7 years old and n advance through the Boy Suts up until they reach their 18th birthday, the BSA says on s policy change was weled by some gay rights advot as an important first step toward endg discrimatn.
BOY SUTS BEG ALLOWG GAY YOUTH SUTS
After s of upholdg an anti-gay policy, the Boy Suts of Ameri ma a historic shift Monday and voted to officially lift a blanket ban on gay lears, but a strong anti-LGBT culture * boy scouts gay ban *
"As fense secretary, Gat supported Print Barack Obama's whdrawal of the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy that prevented gays and lbians om servg openly the removal of the ban on gays uld not happen soon enough for Pasl Tsier of Bethda, Maryland, a 17-year-old high school senr who said he was nied his Eagle Sut Award bee he is gay. "After s of upholdg their anti-gay policy, the Boy Suts of Ameri ma a historic shift Monday and voted to officially lift a blanket ban on gay lears, stead leavg up to each charter to set s dividual standards.
Until now, open or avowed gay men were not allowed, although the ban on gay Suts unr 18 was lifted a few years walkg the le between relig affiliatn and mpg skills has bee creasgly difficult recent years as public support for LGBT rights has expand across the natn.
Dpe the growg backlash recent years agast the Boy Sut's anti-gay ban, many Suts remaed steadfast agast allowg openly gay lears until the BSA's print, Robert Gat, ma his annual addrs May. Fense secretary who phed through the repeal of the anti-gay ary law known as "Don't Ask, Don't Tell, " said the anizatn uld no longer "put our hands the sand and pretend this challenge will go away.
BOY SUTS GAY LEAR BAN LIFTED, BUT ANTI-LGBT CULTURE REMAS AS FEWER CHILDREN JO HISTORIC YOUTH ORGANIZATN
"If you are gog to be the pre-ement youth anizatn Ameri, you're gog to have to be able to move wh the tim, " she 's unclear if the new policy go far enough to help the Boy Suts makeover their image and appeal to an creasgly diverse and tolerant natn after years of anti-gay tradns. And how n a boy who out as gay, or is simply known to be gay bee of his other associatns and iendships, feel that he is not stigmatized by the BSA when the anizatn is still discrimatg agast gay adults? That the BSA ed s recent survey of members as a ver, claimg that a majory of s members wanted this way, only heightens the ugls of the I wrote last July, when the BSA cid to keep the ban on both gay suts and gay sutmasters, still holds: The BSA is sendg a dangero msage to young people across Ameri, tellg them to keep gays away bee they are not like the rt of Boy Suts had a chance, aga, to reem self, but has blown big-time.