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You n try<!-- --> <a href="/newsletters">subscribg here</a> or try aga later.</span></div></div></div></div></hear><article class="article" data-rid="773804" data-rtype="story"><div id="gtm-visibily-50" class="gtm-pixel"></div><div id="gtm-visibily-75" class="gtm-pixel"></div><div id="gtm-visibily-100" class="gtm-pixel"></div><sectn class="sectn--bo sectn--bp sectn--first sectn--learboard"><div class="uw bp--rponsive"><div class="bp-ner"><p class="bp-label">Advertisement</p><div class="bp-ntent bp-ntent--centered"><div></div><div id="adslot-791636"></div></div></div></div></sectn><hear class="article-sectn--tle article-sectn--island article-sectn--has-d"><div class="article-actn"><h1 class="article-hdr">In 'Secret Cy,' thor Jam Kirchick trac the unknown history of gay Washgton</h1><span class="d-meta"><span class="article-d-duratn" aria-label="Aud Duratn">47:01</span><div class="article-d-opts"><a href=" class="article-d-dl" tle="Download the d" download="" role="button" tabx="0"><svg class="in in-download" viewBox="0 0 24 24" aria-labelledby="tle"><tle id="tle">Download Aud</tle><path class="path1" d="M15 2q1.828 0 3.496 0.715t2.871 1.918 1.918 2.871 0.715 3.496q0 1.992-0.82 3.766t-2.266 3.027-3.281 1.816l0.492-0.484q0.422-0.43 0.656-1 0.219-0.531 0.219-1.156 0-0.156-0.008-0.219 1.391-0.969 2.199-2.48t0.809-3.27q0-1.422-0.555-2.719t-1.492-2.234-2.234-1.492-2.719-0.555q-1.297 0-2.496 0.465t-2.109 1.262-1.523 1.906-0.793 2.367h-2.078q-1.656 0-2.828 1.172t-1.172 2.828q0 0.906 0.355 1.68t0.934 1.27 1.285 0.773 1.426 0.277h1.172q0.273 0.687 0.703 1.125l0.883 0.875h-2.758q-1.633 0-3.012-0.805t-2.184-2.184-0.805-3.012 0.805-3.012 2.184-2.184 3.012-0.805h0.516q0.617-1.742 1.859-3.098t2.973-2.129 3.652-0.773zM13 10q0.414 0 0.707 0.293t0.293 0.707v6.586l1.289-1.297q0.289-0.289 0.711-0.289 0.43 0 0.715 0.285t0.285 0.715q0 0.422-0.289 0.711l-3 3q-0.289 0.289-0.711 0.289t-0.711-0.289l-3-3q-0.289-0.305-0.289-0.711 0-0.414 0.293-0.707t0.707-0.293q0.422 0 0.711 0.289l1.289 1.297v-6.586q0-0.414 0.293-0.707t0.707-0.293z"></path></svg></a><button class="d-embed modal--toggle" tle="Embed on your webse"><svg class="in in-embed" viewBox="0 0 108 108" aria-labelledby="tle"><tle id="tle">Embed on your webse</tle><g><path d="M0,57.6l31,13.8v-9L9.6,54.3l-0.7-0.1v-0.2l0.7-0.1L31,45.6v-9L0,50.4V57.6z M37.3,87.5h8.3l24.1-67h-8.3L37.3,87.5z M75.9,36.6v8.9l22.4,8.2l0.7,0.2l0,0.2l-0.7,0.1l-22.4,8.4v8.9L108,57.6v-7.2L75.9,36.6z"></path></g></svg></button><div id="embed-player-modal" class="modal"><button class="modal-close modal--toggle" type="button"><span class="sr-only">Close</span><span aria-hidn="te">×</span></button><div class="modal-ner"><h3>Copy the below to embed the WBUR d player on your se</h3><p><textarea id="embed-player-"><iame width="100%" height="124" scrollg="no" ameborr="no" src=";</textarea></p><button class="modal-btn-py">Copy embed </button></div></div></div></span><a class="rd-actn playable" style="text-ratn:none" tle="Rume" tabx="0"><i class="in-play in-play--article"><span class="in-play-shape"><span class="in-label" data-note="for-screen-rears">Rume</span></span></i></a></div><div class="article-meta"><span class="article-meta-em--date"><span tle="Thursday, June 2nd 2022, 12:30:51 am">June 02, 2022</span></span><ul class="article-meta-em--thorlist article-meta-group"><li class="article-meta-em article-meta-em--thor"><a class="article-meta-lk article-meta-em--thor" href="/si/staff/paige-sutherland">Paige Sutherland</a></li><li class="article-meta-em article-meta-em--thor"><a class="article-meta-lk article-meta-em--thor" href="/si/staff/meghna-chakrabarti">Meghna Chakrabarti</a></li></ul><div class="article-share article-share-ins"><a href=" & target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="article-share-lk" tle="Share on Facebook"><svg class="in in-facebook" viewBox="0 0 128 128" role="img" width="24" aria-labelledby="tle"><tle id="tle">facebook</tle><path display="le" d="M120.1,0H8.2c-4.4,0-8,3.6-8,8v112c0,4.4,3.6,8,8,8h60.4V78.2h-16V59.8h16V43.9 c0-14.6,8.9-24.3,26.4-24.3c7.7,0,13.1,0.9,13.1,0.9V37h-12c-5.3,0-8,3-8,8.2v14.5h18.7l-2.7,18.4h-16v49.7h32c4.4,0,8-3.6,8-8V8 C128.1,3.6,124.5,0,120.1,0z"></path></svg></a><a href="mailto:?body=In 'Secret Cy,' thor Jam Kirchick trac the unknown history of gay In 'Secret Cy,' thor Jam Kirchick trac the unknown history of gay Washgton" class="article-share-lk" tle="Share by email"><svg class="in in-email" viewBox="0 0 128 128" width="20" aria-labelledby="tle"><tle id="tle">Email</tle><path display="le" d="M64.2,86.3l-64-48V104c0,4.4,3.6,8,8,8h112c4.4,0,8-3.6,8-8V38.4L64.2,86.3z M64.2,72l64-48 c0-4.4-3.6-8-8-8H8.2c-4.4,0-8,3.6-8,8L64.2,72z"></path></svg></a></div></div></hear><sectn class="article-sectn--lead-image article-sectn--lead-image--standard"><figure class="article-fig" style="aspect-rat:1000 / 666"><picture class="article-fig-ner"><img class="article-image" src=" alt="In 1979, thoands s march down Pennsylvania Avenue to dramatize their plea for equal rights. "/></picture><figptn class="article-fig-ptn">In 1979, thoands s march down Pennsylvania Avenue to dramatize their plea for equal rights. </figptn></figure></sectn><sectn class="article-sectn--ntent hang-punctuatn article-sectn--first article-sectn--centered article-sectns"><p class="">Post-World War II, there was somethg seen as even worse than beg a munist U.S. polics: <a href=">beg gay</a>.</p><p class="nt-medium">"Beg gay was the <a href=">worst possible thg</a> you uld be Amerin polics. It was worse than beg a munist," thor Jam Kirchick says.</p><p class="">As a rult, some high rankg members of ernment were nied natnal secury clearanc.</p><p class="nt-medium">"The belief was that bee this was so terrible ... the homosexual would go to any lengths to keep his secret a secret, and if that meant betrayg his untry ... he would do ," Kirchick says.</p><p class="">But history shows the fears were unfound.</p><p class="nt-medium">"The Defense Department did a study the 1990s where they looked at over 100 s of pnage, of people givg ernment secrets to foreign powers," he adds.</p><p class="nt-medium">"There's not a sgle example of a gay person dog bee they were blackmailed to dog ."</p><p class="">Today, <em>On Pot</em>: How reers and liv were lost through s of bipartisan homophobia.</p><span><h3>Gut</h3></span><p class=""><a href="><strong>Jam Kirchick</strong></a>, thor of <a href=">Secret Cy: The Hidn History of Gay Washgton</a>. He's also a lumnist for Tablet magaze, wrer-at-large for Air Mail, and a nonrint senr fellow at the Atlantic Council. (<a href=">@jkirchick</a>)</p><span><h3>Interview Highlights</h3></span><p class=""><strong>On the unknown history of gay Washgton</strong></p><p class="nt-medium">“The skills or the tras that make you succsful Washgton, thgs like discretn, beg able to keep secrets, beg able to work long hours for a boss. Maybe to pick up that phone ll at 2 a.m. and, you know, sh over to the Capol to attend to whatever he needs. The are the sorts of thgs that durg this era of the '40s to the '90s, I thk that gay people and really gay men particular, bee let's not fet, this was an era when men led Washgton. There were very few women any sort of posns of fluence. The are the sorts of jobs that that gay people, I thk were sort of uniquely able to do, bee when you're livg the closet, you have to be able to master the sorts of tras.</p><p class="nt-medium">"You also don't have a fay to take re of. And so you n vote more time. You n work longer hours. And so particularly wh the New Deal and the rise of the feral burecracy, you had lots of gay people movg to Washgton, particularly om ral areas, tryg to pe perhaps more nservative small town life, and seekg a life the big cy, which really is the story of gay people 20th century Ameri, leavg small towns and g to big ci.</p><p class="nt-medium">"So that's why I would say was often the gayt place Ameri, the gayt cy Ameri. But there's this paradox. It is also the most anti-gay cy Ameri bee the feral ernment don't allow gay people to work the jobs officially. And so you have lots of gay people hidg. They're forced to nstct the closets that they live . And sets a very high amount of tensn for them workg Washgton.”</p><p class=""><strong>On Washgton D.C.’s gay history, om FDR to Bill Clton</strong></p><p class="nt-medium">“Homosexualy has been nmned sort of Wtern civilizatn or Juo-Christian civilizatn and certaly Ameri for hundreds of years. And you n jt go back and read the laws that were imposed by the Amerin loni. And homosexualy was illegal all 50 stat, and was nsired a medil ndn. But I thk what happens around the World War II or around the late FDR perd, is that homosexualy go om beg jt a s or a medil ndn to beg a natnal secury threat. And the reason is bee of secrecy, really, the tle of my book, and that the Uned Stat needs to build a natnal secury burecracy for managg secret rmatn, nfintial rmatn.</p><p class="nt-medium">“And this notn of natnal secury be a primary ncern Washgton. And the fears that gay people or, you know, homosexuals wh the term that was ed at the time are really sexual viants or perverts, that they have the worst possible secret imagable and that they would go to any length to keep . And that therefore, that mak them very sceptible to blackmail. And so 's not until the Roosevelt admistratn that we see a ernment official beg hound out of office, a high rankg one, actually. Sumner Wells, the Unr-Secretary of State. This is the openg chapters of my book.</p><p class="nt-medium">"He's a very talented diplomat, a iend of the Roosevelt fay. But his enemi, his rivals wh the admistratn, obta rmatn that he's gay. And they try to e this and they e succsfully to get him out of ernment. And I don't thk that if this had happened the 1920s or 1930s, I'm not sure that would have risen to the level that did. But wh Ameri enterg the world as a global superpower, they uld e this argument that, well, Wells is a homosexual. He's therefore sceptible to blackmail by foreign powers. So that's why the book begs wh World War II.”</p><p class=""><strong>On unverg Washgton D.C.’s hidn gay history</strong></p><p class="nt-medium">“I'm gay, and I thk as a gay person, we don't have a way of learng our history through, you know, olr relativ or fay. It's not like if you're Ain Amerin and you n learn the history of slavery through your anctors, or if you're Jewish, you learn the history of your people at the Passover Ser table. If you're gay, you don't have that generatnal nnectn to other gay people. You have to disver for yourself. And so that's what really motivated me to pursue this project.”</p><p class=""><strong>On the Reagan admistratn and the AIDS crisis</strong></p><p class="nt-medium">“One of the thgs, or I would say them that I disvered this book, is that there's a real sense of trangement and fear around the Reagan people. Ronald Reagan himself, his wife, Nancy, his top advisers, of beg seen as gay. And then there's the sense that bee he om Hollywood, he's an actor who om an actor's background, that he may himself be perceived as gay. And there's actually a le one of his top ai, Lyn Nofziger's books, his memoir, that they were ncerned when he was nng for ernor 1966. That bee of his Hollywood associatn, he might be perceived as gay.</p><p class="nt-medium">"And Reagan's memoir that he published 1965, before announcg his n for ernor, he's talkg about one of the films that he was makg 1939, Dark Victory wh the actrs Bette Davis. And he's basilly playg her gay bt iend. And of urse, they uldn't be explic about this. Bee you uld not portray homosexualy explicly the movi. There was a , the MPAA agast s portrayals of homosexualy. But the director was givg Reagan stctns. And this is the way that Reagan reunts . He says, he wanted me to play the role as if I was the sort of fellow who uld s the girls drsg room and dish wh the ladi while they were gettg drsed. Which is a very long, sort of phemistic way of scribg a gay man.</p><p class="nt-medium">"And he's very put off by this and offend and upset of havg to play a role this way. And so even beg an actor and even portrayg a gay character on screen mak him unfortable. And then 1967, the first year of his ernorship, he's rocked by a gay sndal. When a newspaper lumnist alleg that there was a rg of gay men workg his gubernatorial office Sacramento, and that they had had an y at a timhare hoe Lake Tahoe.</p><p class="nt-medium">"And this is published newspapers across the untry. And Reagan is fur about this. He's fur that this be public. And then 1980, one of the thgs that I unvered, really one of the big sops the book, is that a group of Republins, actually morate Republins, brg new accatns of gay advisers surroundg Ronald Reagan to the Washgton Post.</p><p class="nt-medium">"They allege that there's a work of right-wg homosexuals basilly ntrollg Ronald Reagan as if he were a manchurian ndidate. This is actually, you know, a memo that one of the ngrsmen wrote. And I found . And they brought to Ben Bradlee, the legendary executive edor of the Washgton Post. And he gets his bt team of reporters to vtigate this. And then, of urse [Ronald and Nancy Reagan] had a lot of gay iends. I mean, Nancy, particular, there's a a page my book. And the serts, the photo serts, over the entire page lled All the First Lady's Men. And 's photos of Nancy wh all her gay urtiers and hairdrsers and fashn signers. So there's this ra of gayns around the Reagans.</p><p class="nt-medium">"I don't know how else to scribe . And I thk that, upled wh the fact that he had this new block of voters who were supportg him, evangelil Christians, they're a new force Amerin polics. They don't emerge until the late 1970s, and they really propel him to office. And I thk there's jt this hancy and this fear of beg seen too close to anythg gay. And so when you play that tape of that prs nference, and you hear the lghter and the sense of distancg and jt, you know, there's no one here this buildg that has this disease. I thk reflects that. I would also pot out, by the way, 's not jt ... the Reagan admistratn that's treatg this disease as sort of a joke.</p><p class="nt-medium">"You n listen to all those reporters lghg about . You know, the entire prs room was lghg, was lghg at this qutn. And fact, the reporter who asked the qutn about AIDS, tells you a lot about the tim. It was a man named Lter Ksolvg who was a kd of crank, right wg nspiracy theorist. And so he was the guy askg about AIDS. No mastream journalist was even botherg to ask about this disease that was killg, you know, disproportnately gay men. That was the state of the nversatn Ameri at that time.”</p><p class=""><strong>On lsons om Washgton D.C.'s hidn gay history</strong></p><p class="nt-medium">“I fely thk that to be a powerful person Washgton this perd, was impossible to be gay or to be openly gay. And so that's certaly te. And therefore, was very rare or almost impossible to see an openly gay official, you know, posively phg for change. But I do thk that you have to look a ltle b lower down the burecratic ladr durg the power stcture. And you have to unrstand that 1975, the Civil Service Commissn lifted s ban on gay people beg able to work the civil service.</p><p class="nt-medium">"And this actually puts Washgton, D.C., far ahead most other stat the untry, which would take many years for the rt of the untry to adopt anti-discrimatn statut. And so this mak Washgton, D.C., mak the feral burecracy actually que advanced on the issue of gay cln. And so the end of my book, I say, you know, there are all the people whose nam we don't know bee they were ngrsnal staffers. They were people who worked at the Department of Labor or, you know, any of the ernment partments, you know, jt kd of regular burecrats.</p><p class="nt-medium">"I mean, that word has a lot of negative nnotatns, but they're jt thoands of gay men and women who got up every day and went to work. And that put Washgton actually far ahead of other stat and ci. And I thk that was actually really, really important. And they might not have been chiefs of staff. They might not have been senators. They might not have been the most important, powerful people Washgton. But you had this openns and this visibily Washgton among regular, normal people that was far ahead of s time.”</p><span><h3>Book Excerpt</h3></span><div id="iame-embed-1" class="article-sectn--embed article-sectn--scribd"><iame class="scribd_iame_embed" src=" data-to-height="te" data-aspect-rat="" scrollg="no" width="100%" height="600" ameBorr="0"></iame></div><p class=""><em>Excerpt om 'Secret Cy: The Hidn History of Gay Washgton' by Jam Kirchick. Reprted wh permissn. All rights rerved.</em></p><span><h3>Related Readg</h3></span><p class=""><strong>New York Magaze</strong>: "<a href=">The Long, Sordid History of the Gay Conspiracy Theory</a>" — "A specter is hntg Ameri — the specter of sexual generacy."</p><p class=""><strong>POLITICO</strong>: "<a href=">The Plot to Out Ronald Reagan</a>" — "A group of Republins tried to stymie what they alleged was a nefar homosexual work wh the mpaign of their own party’s standard-bearer. More than 40 years later, the story n fally be told."</p></sectn><sectn class="article-sectn--story-group article-sectn--centered"><p class=""><em>This program aired on June 2, 2022.</em></p></sectn></article><sectn class="article-sectn--story-group article-sectn--centered"><hear class="zone"><div class="zone-ner"><h2 class="zone-hdr">Related:</h2></div></hear><ul class="article-story-group"><li class="story-group-em"><a data-ec="Article Related Lks" data-el="Pop-Up Polics Podst: Same-Sex Marriage Before The Supreme Court" data-ea="Click" class="story-group-lk" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href=">Pop-Up Polics Podst: Same-Sex Marriage Before The Supreme Court</a></li><li class="story-group-em"><a data-ec="Article Related Lks" data-el="How Print Bin's Views On LGBTQ Rights Have Evolved Over His Polil Career" data-ea="Click" class="story-group-lk" href=">How Print Bin's Views On LGBTQ Rights Have Evolved Over His Polil Career</a></li><li class="story-group-em"><a data-ec="Article Related Lks" data-el="Supreme Court: 1964 Civil Rights Act Bars LGBTQ Discrimatn : The NPR Polics Podst" data-ea="Click" class="story-group-lk" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href=">Supreme Court: 1964 Civil Rights Act Bars LGBTQ Discrimatn : The NPR Polics Podst</a></li><li class="story-group-em"><a data-ec="Article Related Lks" data-el="Host of 'Makg Gay History' reflects on g of age durg the AIDS crisis" data-ea="Click" class="story-group-lk" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href=">Host of 'Makg Gay History' reflects on g of age durg the AIDS crisis</a></li></ul></sectn><sectn class="article-sectn--story-group article-sectn--centered"><div class="ntributor has-photo"><div class="ntributor-profile"><figure class="ntributor-profile-em ntributor-photo"><a href="/si/staff/paige-sutherland"><picture><img src=" class="lazy rd-image" alt=""/></picture></a></figure><p class="ntributor-profile-em ntributor-b"><a class="ntributor-name" href="/si/staff/paige-sutherland">Paige Sutherland</a> <span class="ntributor-tle">Producer, On Pot</span><br/>Paige Sutherland is a producer for On Pot.</p><p class="ntributor-more"><a class="ntributor-lk ntributor-b-lk" href="/si/staff/paige-sutherland">More…</a></p></div></div><div class="ntributor has-photo"><div class="ntributor-profile"><figure class="ntributor-profile-em ntributor-photo"><a href="/si/staff/meghna-chakrabarti"><picture><img src=" class="lazy rd-image" alt=""/></picture></a></figure><p class="ntributor-profile-em ntributor-b"><a class="ntributor-name" href="/si/staff/meghna-chakrabarti">Meghna Chakrabarti</a> <span class="ntributor-tle">Host, On Pot</span><br/>Meghna Chakrabarti is the host of On Pot.</p><p class="ntributor-more"><a class="ntributor-lk ntributor-b-lk" href="/si/staff/meghna-chakrabarti">More…</a></p></div></div></sectn><sectn class="sectn--bo sectn--bp"><div class="uw bp--rponsive"><div class="bp-ner"><p class="bp-label">Advertisement</p><div class="bp-ntent bp-ntent--centered"><div></div><div id="adslot-791637"></div></div></div></div></sectn><div></div><div class="global-d-ponents onmand--is-playg"><div class="global-player"><d preload="to"></d><div class="global-player-bar"><div class="global-player-bar-left"><button class="global-player-bar-ntrol"><i class="in-play in-play--global-player-bar in-play--psed"><span class="in-play-shape"><span class="in-label" data-note="for-screen-rears">Rume</span></span></i></button><div class="global-player-label global-player-label--live"><div class="global-player-channel"><span>Listen Live</span></div><div class="global-player-tle"><a class="global-player-label-lk" href="/">Loadg...</a></div></div></div><div class="global-player-bar-right"><div class="global-player-x"><svg class="in in-close" viewBox="0 0 24 24" aria-labelledby="tle"><tle id="tle">Close

secrets of gay washington

Secret Cy: The Hidn History of Gay Washgton [Kirchick, Jam] on *FREE* shippg on qualifyg offers. Secret Cy: The Hidn History of Gay Washgton

Contents:

A HISTORY OF GAY WASHGTON THAT LETS HOMOPHOBIA STEAL THE SPOTLIGHT

Secret Cy: The Hidn History of Gay Washgton - Kdle edn by Kirchick, Jam. Download once and read on your Kdle vice, PC, phon or tablets. Use featur like bookmarks, note takg and highlightg while readg Secret Cy: The Hidn History of Gay Washgton. * secrets of gay washington *

Wh his new book, “Secret Cy: The Hidn History of Gay Washgton, ” Jam Kirchick tri to retrof the trope to a very specific subset of the District’s famoly diverse LGBTQ muny, ultimately verg a bewilrg amount of old ground whout offerg the rear much that n be lled new.

SECRET CY: THE HIDN HISTORY OF GAY WASHGTON KDLE EDN

* secrets of gay washington *

Apart om notable appearanc by a handful of otherwise unrexplored gay and lbian polis — scrappy CIA officer Carmel Offie, Office of Strategic Servic trailblazer Cora Du Bois and Kennedy nfidant Lem Billgs, among others — “Secret Cy” largely foc on the pa experienced by, and at the hands of, faiar gay men like FBI Director J. Most gay voic, however, are drowned out by, even treated as ls credible than, those of homophobic straight people: Gossip lumnists, yellow journalists, embattled prints, nnivg senators, obsequ FBI agents and a rotatg st of ais all are relied upon as primary sourc a history that is not primarily theirs to tell. Prs rps, how such homophobia has long manifted as mor and nuendo (pag and pag of which are here reproduced), the fluence of such homophobia on an enormo st of almost exclively Whe gay men, and how more than a few of those men played not-signifint rol the GOP’s long march to the far are not unimportant topics.

At one pot, for example, Kirchick attribut a “lack of Black participatn” an early gay rights anizatn, at least part, “to the fact that Washgton’s Black rints were mostly lols … and associatg wh a gay anizatn was signifintly harr while livg the cy where one’s fay rid. Siarly, while “Secret Cy” has ltle to say about lbians, the thor attempts to expla the silence away wh qutnable, and ultimately unstaable, claratns of how “persecutn generally targeted male homosexuals more severely than female on, a nsequence, part, of patriarchal attus privilegg men over women.

Equally troublg is the book’s uneven approach to the plited polics of “the closet, ” lurchg whout warng om requise portrayals of survival-by-secrecy to scribg, language both hackneyed and harmful, the ne gay victims of D. Riemer is a -thor of “We Are Everywhere: Prott, Power, and Pri the History of Queer Liberatn” and a -creator of the onle rource CyThe Hidn History of Gay WashgtonBy Jam KirchickHenry Holt. )And yet the very skills gay people had to velop to survive — studns, partmentalizatn, discretn, erancy — ma them uniquely skilled, Kirchick pots out, to sensive tasks like pnage or high-level advisg.

SECRET CY: THE HIDN HISTORY OF GAY WASHGTON PAPERBACK – MAY 16, 2023

Kev Maxen, an associate strength ach wh the Jacksonville Jaguars, has bee the first male ach a major U.S.-based profsnal league to e out as gay. * secrets of gay washington *

Fil, rrponnce, terview transcripts and prs clippgs — you n almost hear the old microfiche sheets tickg by — Kirchick holds the most dited persecutors, some of whom were themselv the closet, to sthg Morigi“Even at the height of the Cold War, was safer to be a Communist than a homosexual, ” he wr. ” Later, as tolerance grew (thanks part to the efforts of the Mattache Society, the gay rights anizatn whose evolutn is traced here), some nfirmed bachelors took the important seat once occupied by Perle Mta, the cy’s famed “hosts wh the mosts. Kirchick wr of Nancy Reagan: “Her own persona is pably, irreprsibly gay, embodied by the retue that signed, drsed, rted, entertaed, flattered, hoed, humored, pampered, styled and tillated her.

WASHGTON, D.C.'S HIDN GAY HISTORY IS UNVERED 'SECRET CY'

Uniquely Nasty, a Yahoo News documentary om 2015, explored the ltle known story of the US Government’s relentls persecutn of gays the Cold War era, focg part on how the FBI unr Hoover’s directn, tracked the nam of tens of thoands of spected gays and lbians workg for t * secrets of gay washington *

It would be bt read at the vlet hour wh a snifter of brandy a wood-paneled library, one of those wh a rollg ladr to brg down some of the fad midcentury bt-sellers rurfaced the pag, like Vidal’s “The Cy and the Pillar” — the narrative perks up nsirably whenever this ntent, urbane wrer arriv on the premis — “Washgton Confintial, ” by Jack La and Lee Mortimer (1951), wh s fabled “Garn of Pansi”; and “Advise and Consent, ” by Allen Dry (1959), which won a Pulzer and was ma to a movie by Otto ’s also a Baeker of important plac (map clud): the rollickg Chicken Hut bar where Teboe met his murrers; the “F Loop” of the Dupont Circle pickup scene that veloped the 1960s; the Cema Folli, the pornographic theater where ne men died a 1977 fire; the “gay rner” of the Congrsnal Cemetery; and, more hopefully, the Lambda Risg is overwhelmgly a gallery of the whe male gaytriarchy, wh lbians and people of lor mostly on the sil. ”―TIME“Throughout Secret Cy, Kirchick do a masterful job of nveyg the flavor of homophobia each historil era, while g impecble rearch to vividly characterize the dozens of var dividuals at play the stori. Much like the gay muny self, the book ntas people om every social class, lor, personaly, and profsn, om disabled and impoverished veterans to the untry's send most powerful preachy, self-nsc, or borg, Secret Cy has raised the bar for the genre, portrayg s subjects and their cy all s ntradictns.

SECRET CY: THE HIDN HISTORY OF GAY WASHGTON HARDVER – MAY 31, 2022

“Secret Cy: The Hidn History of Gay Washgton” tails the brave and sometim salac characters of Washgton D.C.’s gay culture durg the 20th century. * secrets of gay washington *

In this spellbdg journey om the New Deal to the end of the Cold War, Jam Kirchick draws to the mimon of Gay Washgton: a dangero world swirlg wh rmers, sndal sheets, blacklists, clanste works, and brave fighters for equaly.

JAGUARS ACH OUT AS GAY A FIRST FOR U.S.-BASED PRO LEAGU

"Secret Cy," isn’t so much a gay history of D.C. as is a history of Washgton as experienced by s gay power players. * secrets of gay washington *

”―Gee Stephanopoulos"In Secret Cy, Jam Kirchick tells a Washgton DC Cold War story that few have heard: How the polil obssn wh secrecy together wh the fear of munist fluence distorted perceptns not only of gay people, but of realy self. Lovers of Washgton lore will enjoy the pictn of gay life the natn's pal when was entirely unrground, and lovers of jtice will take pleasure the fact that some of the most repulsive characters morn polil history who ed so many liv and reers are brought to jtice the only way they n be now: the historil rerd. Farrell, thor of Richard Nixon: The Life“Kirchick has wrten a mmerizg and movg acunt of gay proximy to power, and the shockg ristance to , Ameri's pal cy long before the morn gay-rights movement began.

“Secret Cy: The Hidn History of Gay Washgton, " by Jam Kirchick, is a 654-page tome that took years of rearch and an exhstive vtigatn to printial archiv, historil terviews and once-classified ernment rerds. “I realized that all the stori I was readg, and the personali and phenomena, whether was McCarthyism or the Reagans, FDR or JFK, that there were the gay stori lurkg the background, ” Kirchick said. “It was the specter of homosexualy that provoked the first and only suici by a member of Congrs his Capol Hill office, ed Lyndon Johnson to et that his historil lead would evaporate, and seized the paranoid md of Richard Nixon send only to the plots of his ever-expandg enemi list, ” Kirchick wr.

” Rumors of homosexualy were tastrophic to those who were acced of , but Kirchick also asks the rear to nsir the broar human and societal impact of such wch hunts on gay Amerins workg ernment. “To asss the full sle of the damage that the fear of homosexualy wrought on the Amerin polil landspe, one mt take to acunt not only the reers ed and the liv cut short, but somethg vaster and unquantifiable: the possibili thwarted, ” Kirchick wr. Although openly LGBTQ people have ma their way to the hight ranks of ernment today, was not long ago that spected homosexuals workg for the feral ernment were hunted down, publicly huiated and termated wh the full force of the ernment.

FIRG OF GAY CATHOLIC SCHOOL TEACHER ULD TT LATT SUPREME COURT LG

Post-World War II, there was somethg seen as even worse than beg a munist U.S. polics: beg gay. We discs how liv and reers were lost through s of bipartisan homophobia. * secrets of gay washington *

The possibily that Kemp uld jo the ticket was evince that there was a “homosexual rg” around Reagan and that he was “the ventriloquized pawn of shadowy and sister forc, ” Kirchick wr.

” Wh those words, Clton would do somethg that would have seemed unfathomable to most, if not all, of his precsors: make an explic appeal to gay Amerins for their support a printial electn. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circu Richmond is an early tt of how that major Supreme Court cisn ptg ee speech agast anti-discrimatn laws will play out beyond the hypothetil suatn that se, which volved a platiff who had never actually ma weddg webs or been asked to do so by a gay person.

“The Court rejected the dissent’s assertn that s cisn opened the door to discrimatn employment, ” ACLU attorney Josh Block wrote a reply to Becket’s the exampl raised the Supreme Court did not clu a relig anizatn or a gay employee, and Gorsuch repeatedly voked a 2000 cisn allowg the Boy Suts to expel a gay volunteer on “exprsive associatn” grounds. “We all said that thoands of relig anizatns all across the untry ask their employe to uphold their tradnal view of marriage word and ed, and if you terpret the statute that way, ’s gog to unleash lots of lawsus agast them, ” Goodrich the Supreme Court has specifilly said preventg racial discrimatn is a pellg ernment tert that jtifi rtrictg First Amendment eedoms, he noted that the Supreme Court has rejected such a fdg on discrimatn agast gay or transgenr people. Blick arrived to share telligence about a new threat, one that, he suggted, uld stabilize Amerin natnal secury om wh: the existence of gay staffers at the hight levels of began by explag that “a well-known pnage tactic” entailed lurg female ernment staffers “to the munist unrground by volvg them lbian practic.

WHAT MA WASHGTON, D.C., THE “GAYT AND MOST ANTIGAY CY AMERI”

Blick kept the list locked a metal safe at police ’s gay list quickly took on mythic stat, a now largely fotten rollary to Joseph McCarthy’s famo “list of nam” of Communists the State Department.

Ngrspeople, eager to stop Ronald Reagan om wng the Republin Printial nomatn, gathered to discs whether a “homosexual rg” ntrolled the “Secret Cy: The Hidn History of Gay Washgton” (Henry Holt & Co. (Relayg the fear exprsed by the Republin senator Bob Livgston 1980 that a “bal of right-wg gay hmen” was on s way to assassate him, for stance, Kirchick not that this “may seem far-fetched” to the ntemporary rear. C., was “simultaneoly the gayt and most antigay cy Ameri, ” a place which queer people were omniprent—but so, too, was the risk of you went lookg for the prototypil queer staffer among the book’s st of characters—Kirchick helpfully lists the dramatis personae at the ont of the book—you might settle on Carmel Offie, who, spe a most background, got a job wh the Ambassador to Honduras when he was jt twenty-two, the early neteen-thirti.

A lleague of Offie’s once lled him “as homosexual as you n get, ” and Kirchick reunts mors that Offie, who reportedly scribed his bedroom as “the playg fields of Eton, ” had a romantic relatnship wh William Bullt, the Ambassador to the Soviet Unn, for whom he eventually went to work. Though not que to the level of a “homosexual rg, ” a notable ntgent of high-level gay iends and staffers worked for Reagan, for stance, and queer people ma up a signifint share of other Admistratns throughout the middle and latter parts of the twentieth century.

SECRETS OF GAY WASHGTON (W/ JAM KIRCHICK)

Roosevelt vociferoly fend his iend and the Unr-Secretary of State, Sumner Well, followg revelatns that Well was a homosexual, askg for Well’s rignatn only unr mountg prsure om his Republin rivals.

For years, the prs went along wh this discretn, but that mutually assured silence began to unravel durg Roosevelt’s third term, when a New York Post article that acced the Massachetts senator David Walsh of visg a “hoe of gradatn”—the Post never ed the word “homosexual”—gurated outg as a polil weapon. Kirchick posns “Secret Cy” as a lightly revisnist work, notg that “most narrativ of the movement for gay equaly” emphasize the Stonewall uprisg, the assassatn of Harvey Milk, and the mpaign agast the antigay activist Ana Bryant before sistg that “the spark for the revolutn was l, and s flame was tend, Washgton, DC.

BEG GAY WAS DC’S MOST SHAMEFUL SECRET DURG 20TH CENTURY

Kameny subsequently built up the cy’s first staed gay anizatn and is rightly regard as a pneer for equal the tth most clearly revealed by Kirchick’s foc on Washgton is one that queer historians have emphasized for years: that change was prompted not by those the halls of power but by activists workg well outsi of them.

And almost no one “Secret Cy” who had a job a Printial Admistratn phed for equal rights, quietly or otherwise, while still employed—even after activists had succeed makg gay rights a natnal story.

The high pot of his si fightg seems to have arrived 1982, when Dolan wrote to the Admistratn to cricize the Fay Protectn Act, which banned any anizatn that st homosexualy as an “acceptable life style” om receivg feral fundg, and a month later, when he apologized for g antigay language his N. Uniquely Nasty, a Yahoo News documentary om 2015, explored the ltle known story of the US Government’s relentls persecutn of gays the Cold War era, focg part on how the FBI unr Hoover’s directn, tracked the nam of tens of thoands of spected gays and lbians workg for t. Uniquely Nasty, a Yahoo News documentary om 2015, explored the ltle known story of the US Government’s relentls persecutn of gays the Cold War era, focg part on how the FBI unr Hoover’s directn, tracked the nam of tens of thoands of spected gays and lbians workg for the Feral Government.

‘THE REAL VILLA IS THE CLOSET’: A NEW HISTORY OF GAY WASHGTON DEALS WH SOCIETY AS IT TLY WAS

GUESTS:Jam Kirchick, (@jkirchick), Author of the book Isikoff (@Isikoff), Chief Invtigative Corrponnt, Yahoo NewsDaniel Klaidman (@dklaidman), Edor Chief, Yahoo NewsVictoria Bassetti (@VBass), fellow, Brennan Center for Jtice (ntributg -host)RESOURCES:Pick up Jam Kirchick's book The Secret Cy: The Hidn History of Gay Washgton - the groundbreakg Yahoo News documentary "Uniquely Nasty: The U. Government's War on Gays - on Twter: @SkullduggeryPodListen and subscribe to "Skullduggery" on Apple Podsts, Spotify, Google Podsts or wherever you get your wh feedback, qutns or tips: See for privacy and opt-out rmatn. “Beg a bachelor was a somewhat easier stat to mata, and you might draw ls attentn to yourself as a bachelor Washgton than you might other ci, certaly the small towns and many gay people were fleeg, ” Kirchick explas.

As is a history of Washgton as experienced by s gay power players—figur who were workg alongsi their straight lleagu to put the untry on a post-World War II footg, addrs the risg Civil Rights Movement, and ntend wh a Cold War that left everyone paranoid.

SECRET CY: THE HIDN HISTORY OF GAY WASHGTON

So he was the first person to e out, whereas leadg up to him, there were untold hundreds or maybe thoands of gay people who lost their jobs, who jt sort of melted away back to obscury.

I was aware of the whole gay OSS [Office of Strategic Servic, an early eratn of the CIA] thg bee there’s a chapter on a book about the early years of the OSS, and there’s a chapter about Donald Down that kd of refers to him as beg gay. Begng wh the tragic story of Sumner Well, Frankl Delano Roosevelt’s brilliant diplomatic advisor and the man at the center of “the greatt natnal sndal sce the existence of the Uned Stat, ” Jam Kirchick illumat how homosexualy shaped each succsive printial admistratn through the end of the twentieth century.

Cultural and polil anxiety over gay people sparked a s-long wch hunt, impactg everythg om the rivalry between the CIA and the FBI to the ascent of Joseph McCarthy, the stggle for Black civil rights, and the rise of the nservative movement. Among other revelatns, Kirchick tells of the World War II–era gay spymaster who pneered sctn as a tool of Amerin pnage, the voted ai whom Lyndon Johnson treated as a son yet abandoned once his homosexualy was disvered, and how allegatns of a “homosexual rg” ntrollg Ronald Reagan nearly railed his 1980 electn victory.

IN 'SECRET CY,' THOR JAM KIRCHICK TRAC THE UNKNOWN HISTORY OF GAY WASHGTON

(@jkirchick)Interview HighlightsOn the unknown history of gay Washgton“The skills or the tras that make you succsful Washgton, thgs like discretn, beg able to keep secrets, beg able to work long hours for a boss. And so particularly wh the New Deal and the rise of the feral burecracy, you had lots of gay people movg to Washgton, particularly om ral areas, tryg to pe perhaps more nservative small town life, and seekg a life the big cy, which really is the story of gay people 20th century Ameri, leavg small towns and g to big ci. And the fears that gay people or, you know, homosexuals wh the term that was ed at the time are really sexual viants or perverts, that they have the worst possible secret imagable and that they would go to any length to keep .

And then 1980, one of the thgs that I unvered, really one of the big sops the book, is that a group of Republins, actually morate Republins, brg new accatns of gay advisers surroundg Ronald Reagan to the Washgton Post. Jo Kirchick as he illumat how the midcentury ia of homosexualy shaped succsive printial admistratns, impactg everythg om the creatn of Ameri’s earlit civilian telligence agency to the rise and fall of McCarthyism, the stggle for Ain Amerin civil rights, and the nservative movement. From World War II until the end of the Cold War, untold thoands of gay men and women were eher purged om ernment service or nied employment altogether, solely bee of their sexual the same time, some of the most important prerequis for succs the natn’s pal—the abily to work long hours on a low ernment salary, a willgns to travel at a moment’s notice, prrizg reer over fay—are more easily attaed by those whout a fay to support, a set of circumstanc that ma Washgton an pecially attractive place for gay people, gay men particular.

The cy has long attracted the archetypil “bt ltle boy the world, ” the thor Andrew Tobias’s term for a certa type of gay young man who diligently channels the adversy engenred by his secret to amic pursus, so many of whom have ma their way to Washgton bee of s peculiar appete for the skills that secret Kirchick: The stggle for gay rights is overBob Waldron was one such man.

BEG GAY WAS THE GRAVT S WASHGTON

Waldron’s experience, ptured now-classified ernment rerds and told full here for the first time, reveals jt how much the gay Amerins sacrificed—and how even someone unwavergly loyal to one of the untry’s most skillful policians was vulnerable to the fall of 1963, Johnson had cid to brg Waldron onto his executive-branch staff. Phillips seemed to take the matter stri, as evinced by his cisn to stay at Waldron’s home, and sleep Waldron’s bed, for the rt of the A glimpse to 1970s gay activismIn reuntg the experienc to the ernment vtigator, though, Phillips imbued them wh a forebodg he had not seemed to feel when they occurred.

*BEAR-MAGAZINE.COM* SECRETS OF GAY WASHINGTON

bars</tle><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_65hRV2Qwn" class="css-1fxvzwo" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_ILVvi2tqx" class="css-1wnday1" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC"><rect x="34" width="6" height="36" id="el_qw_T_tngXw"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_p_9Pm85Ac" class="css-fwki7z" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_WxG3R40yd" class="css-t3i5e6" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU"><rect x="22.67" width="6" height="36" id="el_lf9GrROk6j"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_kYNRGDfcw" class="css-t9te0w" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_3c3bzSjOJ" class="css-1r5375t" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw"><rect x="11.33" width="6" height="36" id="el_-iueO8klO0"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_y_fKcpSxn" class="css-qknaag" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_R6bNB6_Ys" class="css-1vd04" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC"><rect width="6" height="36" id="el_dS5TKNZZ5w"></rect></g></g></g></svg></div><div><div class="css-1t7yl1y">0:00<!-- -->/<!-- -->28:47</div><div class="css-og85jy">-<!-- -->28:47</div></div></div></div></hear><div class="css-uzyn7p"><div class="css-1vxyw"><p class="css-1nng8z9">transcript</p><h2 class="css-9wqu2x">The Wrers’ Revolt Agast A.I. Compani</h2><h4 class="css-qsd3hm">Tech bs have been g onle wrg to velop their chatbots — whout permissn.</h4><time dateTime="2023-07-18T10:00:12.000Z" class="css-1e605">2023-07-18T06:00:12-04:00</time></div><dl class="css-p98d0w"><dt class="css-xx7kwh"></dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">This transcript was created g speech regnn software. While has been reviewed by human transcribers, may nta errors. Please review the episo d before quotg om this transcript and email wh any qutns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">From “The New York Tim,” I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today, to refe their popular technology, new artificial telligence platforms, like ChatGPT, are gobblg up the work of thors, poets, edians and actors, whout their nsent. As my lleague, Sheera Frenkel, found, a rebelln is brewg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s Tuday, July 18.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sheera, is really nice to have you back. It has been far too long.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I agree. It’s great to be back here.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We are turng to you our ongog and very diligent efforts to unrstand this new era artificial telligence and the bate that is ragg over s like ChatGPT, which have put artificial telligence really at everyone’s fgertips.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And rrect me if I’m wrong, but really feels like this is shapg up as a clash between those who are really exced about the pabili of s like ChatGPT — you know, what n do next? This is so tertg. And this huge group of people who are jt eaked out about , right? And ’s gog too far, ’s too sry. And we’ve done a lot of episos about this. A recent one looked at stunts who love ChatGPT, bee n do their homework for them, and their teachers and profsors who are like, wa a mute, you’re basilly cheatg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And you have been reportg on the latt chapter of this clash between human and mache. So tell about that.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, what I’ve been foced on is really jt all the battl over what go to the AI mach. And what mak them powerful, what mak them able to imate human voice is all of the ntent that we’ve put onle over all the years. It’s the poems, and the blogs, and the photographs, and the illtratns that are then pied, and scraped, and fed to the AI mach. It’s what teach them to imate human behavr.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mm-hmm.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And the past six months, as this software has bee really powerful and very popular, more and more people have started askg qutns about whether they want their ntent fed to AI mach. And if they don’t want there, if there’s really anythg they n do about .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So tell who exactly the people are who are askg the qutns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They kd of fall to two groups. There are the people who are dog so bee ’s their livelihood. They have a pyright on their material, and they have some kd of legal protectn agast their work.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The other group are the hobbyists. They’re the people who are wrg stori for the fun of , that are jt creatg art bee they’re passnate about somethg. And they’re puttg stuff out to the ether of the ter. They love . They want to share wh the world. This is jt a te moment of human creativy.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But, you know, both of the groups are seeg ChatGPT, they’re seeg the AI pani valued at hundreds of lns of dollars, and they’re realizg that their creativy is makg someone else a lot of money. And they’re feelg exploed. They’re feelg like their creativy, their moment of spiratn is beg ed.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So let’s start wh this first group of creativ who sound like they are the big fish bee they have pyright protectn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. The are people like actors, animators, wrers, people who make their livelihood by uploadg what they’re dog to the ter. And so they’ve been really alarmed when a ChatGPT along and n produce art their style or n wre a paragraph their style.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (sarah silverman)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I go — I go to the hotel. Super fancy hotel —</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Take, for stance, Sarah Silverman.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (sarah silverman)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— and I go to check . Oh, and the lady at the ont sk regnized me. And she was like, oh, my god, I love you. You are my top four all time favore edians.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">She is a edian, an actor, a wrer, who has honed an credibly distctive style over s of workg.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (sarah silverman)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I was like, you know that I know that means I’m fourth, right?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Not walkg away om this like, ooh, maybe I’m send, you know? No.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And if you go to ChatGPT and say, “Tell me a joke the style of Sarah Silverman”— which is somethg I tried out — really gets her spot on. And she argu that not only has read her jok and read her other onle edy, but that ’s even read this book that she wrote “Betwetter,” which has been upload onle and exists onle versns.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">She appears pretty nvced that ’s sentially learned who she is and what her edic style is. It n mimic her to the gree that you thk is her wrg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I’m gusg ChatGPT likely did that whout askg her permissn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. There is no permissns beg asked here bee there are sentially — image the giant mach that are crawlg the ter at all tim. And any data they e across, they llect. They scrape . They don’t know what they’re dog. They’re nvertg to numbers. It’s basilly bee math the systems. And so anythg onle is nstantly beg hoovered up by the mach and fed to AI systems.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so for a creative profsnal like Sarah Silverman, that feels credibly threateng terms of their livelihood, their abily to make a livg off of beg an artist wh an pennt voice that’s been honed over s. If a mache n do that, why would you need to pay Sarah Silverman to e and wre your script or pen a edy special?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mm-hmm. But how n you be so sure that ChatGPT is really stealg om you if you’re someone like Sarah Silverman, or if you’re anybody, really, whose work has been upload by ChatGPT? Bee my gus is that this gets a ltle b sticky. How much of is jt guswork and how much of is really beg rived om sentially borrowed or stolen material?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Defely. I mean, well, to beg wh, there are the reposori where you n go and check and see if your work has been scraped. A lot of artists do this. A lot of wrers do . And they’ll see there that your name will appear or your piece of art will appear. And so for someone like Sarah Silverman, she n go and see, OK, right, my book has been scraped.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But more specifilly, ’s really jt playg wh this, and ttg out for yourself and toyg wh . I was cur as I was reportg this story, so I went onle and I typed my name. And I said, “Can you wre a paragraph about the danger of onle extremism the voice of Sheera Frenkel?”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Which is the subject you ver, of urse —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— over and over and over aga for “The Tim.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Y, exactly. And I’ve wrten books. I’ve been wrg about for over a . It’s out there. My material is out there. And when I tell you that even after knowg about AI for a year, even after verg this topic for a year, I was creeped out at how close got my voice. I uld have easily wrten this sentence.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Expla that. I mean, I’m not on ChatGPT right now, so I n’t replite the search. But what happened when you said, you know, “Wre a paragraph about the subject I know bt, Sheera Frenkel,” and sp out the rults. What about felt so distctively Sheera Frenkel-que?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I will read to you. So wr this one openg sentence, which is “Onle platforms once hailed as bastns of ee exprsn have bee breedg grounds for hate, radilizatn, and the propagatn of dangero iologi.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That exprsn, “the bastns of ee exprsn,” I’ve ed that. I googled . I ed that an article ls than a year ago and aga an article three years ago. I didn’t even realize that that was a phrase or a turn of phrase that I often ed until ChatGPT repeated back to me.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. It’s kd of a distctive set of words you’re sayg that you turn to. And jt borrowed om you replitg your work.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, knew my bra better than I did. I didn’t realize that that was phrasg I equently ed.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">[lghs]</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I had to go to “The New York Tim” archiv to figure out, oh, yeah, ’s right, I do e that. And, oh, my god, I probably ed too often bee this mache has learned about me.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. And suffice to say, you were not, like Sarah Silverman, nsulted about your work beg scraped by ChatGPT.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Nope. We were never nsulted. And no one at “The New York Tim” was nsulted.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Got . So Sarah Silverman did not like that experience. You scribed as a ltle b eerie. I’m wonrg if ’s a touch flatterg to have ChatGPT borrow your stuff?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Or if you worry about the long-term enomic nsequenc of all, which is to say that someday ChatGPT might be able to replite your journalism so brilliantly, that maybe “The Tim” don’t need you on the beat anymore.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, you know, I’ve actually spent so much time thkg about this. And there’s a part of me that was thkg, oh, god, kd of would be nice when I was done wh reportg to plug my not to a mache and have — there are days where would be nice to have a mache wre my article for me.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But no, no, I thought about more, and then I was like, yeah, n imate what I’ve already done. But the whole pot of news is that what we’re brgg you is h and based on new reportg. So the nclns we’re drawg for rears are nstantly changg.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And AI n’t do that. It n only repeat and regurgate what’s already been given to , what’s already the system. And so whatever answer giv you might be what Sheera Frenkel thought about somethg two years ago or five years ago. But won’t be what the newt ia is or the ht reportg has brought rears.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. It might jt keep tellg the world that you thk somethg’s a bastn of ee exprsn when you thk ’s a bastn of not ee exprsn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">[lghs]</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">If ’s bee a bastn of hate speech and extremism.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK, so what n creativ do about, sentially, this theft, right? What n the Sheera Frenkels and the Sarah Silvermans of the world do, and what are they dog about this problem?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So the creativ wh the pyright, the creativ wh the legal protectn of a pyright n file lawsus. And that’s exactly what we’re seeg happen. There’s been nearly a dozen lawsus that have been filed agast AI pani by everybody om book publishers to dividuals who have pyright protectns.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And one of them was Sarah Silverman, who got together wh another two thors to sue several AI pani, cludg Meta, which is the parent pany of Facebook, and OpenAI, which is the parent pany of ChatGPT, to say that their work was illegally scraped, and download, and upload to the AI systems.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And Sheera, what do legal experts thk are the chanc that this kd of a lawsu om a Sarah Silverman will prevail agast a pany like ChatGPT?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, you know, this is all brand new. It’s brand new se law. But they know they have to tablish some kd of law or precent gog forward bee this is material wh a pyright. For a lot of artists, books they wrote 10 years ago or 15 years ago, that’s gog to ntue to make them money throughout their liv.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And y, they’re evolvg nstantly as artists. They want to thk about their material gog forward. They don’t want ChatGPT to wre their jok for them gog forward. But they also want to be paid for the books that have already been published and are already out there.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so is the feelg that old school pyright law will provi someone like Sarah Silverman wh the legal protectns that she’s seekg?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, the legal experts seem credibly hopeful that there is some kd of pyright protectn here, and that, sentially, some kd of fancial damag will be award, and that some kd of moary value will be placed on the very strong pyright protectns that creative profsnals get.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The problem is that even if they get that money, even if Meta or OpenAI are forced to pay some kd of damag to Sarah Silverman, the ntent, the data, n never be retrieved. It’s out there. It’s bee numbers and on and zeros fed to a mache. There’s no way to go to , to that mache, and get that data back out. Once ’s , ’s forever.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so ultimately, even if they do get that fancial reward through the urt system, and they get the pyright protectn to their material affirmed by the urts, their data is gone. Their data is there forever.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">In other words, the horse is out of the stable. I assume that’s te, Sheera, for , for “The Tim,” for the work of people like you. We n’t retrieve your journalism back om a ChatGPT. So is “The Tim,” like Sarah Silverman, thkg of sug the AI pani?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So “The New York Tim,” to the bt of our knowledge, is not lookg at a lawsu. What we’ve seen “The New York Tim” and other news publishers do is start to thk about how to start chargg for this data gog forward. I mean, “The New York Tim” is creatg tons of ntent every sgle day that the mach want to stay up to date.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so they’re really tryg to figure out if there’s some kd of fancial arrangement that n be put to place where the AI pani pay . And ’s not jt news publishers. Webs, like Redd, they’re lookg at licensg their data as well. They’re sayg, this data is herently valuable and we want you to pay for .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But look, that’s gog to take a long time for them to e to an agreement. This is a brand new mol. This is a brand new technology. And the meantime, the data is still beg scraped. In the meantime, the systems have all the articl that have already been published. They probably are beg updated on new articl as they e out. And so all this material is still beg fed to the mach as the talks are ongog.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. And will be for some time. So you’re sayg the pyright protected creators, who would seem to have the strongt posn this equatn, are not really mountg that forceful a phback spe the anger that you’re scribg here.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. I mean, they are g the urts. They are g the legal system. But as we know, that’s slow. Wag for the urts to take actn, wag for lawyers to hammer out a fancial agreement between a massive news anizatn and an AI pany is a slow procs.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And what’s tertg for me is that this other group of people that I mentned, those that don’t have a pyright protectn, the hobbyists, the enthiasts, the people that are postg to the ter for the fun of , they’re the on that are leadg the most creative rebelln or revolt agast AI.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be right back.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Sheera, tell more about this send group of creators who are fightg back agast AI platforms — the hobbyists and amatrs, as you’ve scribed them, who lack the legal pyright protectns of people like you and Sarah Silverman.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So actually a group I spent a lot of time terviewg and thkg about was fan fictn wrers. And for anyone who’s not faiar — bee before I reported this story, I’d never actually read any fanfic, there are —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Fanfic? Now you’re an thory.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m now ep the fandoms. The are people who watch a movie like “Star Wars” and love , but walk away om thkg, what would happen if the ma characters at the end, Kylo Ren and Rey didn’t die? What if they fell love and got married? And I’m really sorry if I’m havg movie spoilers my answers here.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">What would happen if “Buffy the Vampire Slayer,” two of the vampir met high school and had a gay romance? I mean, they take the popular movi and TV shows, and they let their imagatns roam. And they publish the credible — I mean, book-length piec of ntent — about their favore movi and TV shows.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And, you know, this is not stuff they have any kd of pyright to. If anythg, they’re borrowg om ias and characters that are already out there. But they’re dog for the love of those characters and the storyl that they want to explore their own wrg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And how did wrers of fanfictn disver that their work was beg sucked up by platforms like ChatGPT?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So they actually disvered this a really, really funny way, which is that fan fictn, you create your own characters. And some of them have nam like Bucky, which is a batn of several characters om “Buffy the Vampire Slayer.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. [LAUGHS]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so they go to ChatGPT and they type , “Wre me a story about Bucky fallg love wh a vampire. Wre me a story about Bucky on a summer day eatg a popsicle.” And ChatGPT knew who that character was wh great specificy.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Another example that was actually given to me — and this was the most outrageo example as far as the fanfictn wrers were ncerned — is that there’s this sexual trope, lled the omegaverse, which fan fictn wrers really like to explore. And ’s very, very specific to fanfictn. And ChatGPT knew all about .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You’re not gog to tell any more about ?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m very nfed about myself.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">[lghs]</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I’m pretty new to fanfictn. From what I’ve read, there’s like tentacl volved. And ’s —</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">— I don’t thk ’s appropriate for the podst.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sure, sure, sure, sure.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But the pot is there’s no reason an AI mache would know about unls had read and gted their fanfictn wrg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Why would ChatGPT know anythg about this unls was scrapg fanfictn? But Sheera, aren’t the fanfictn wrers postg stuff that’s fair game, right? They don’t have pyright.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, they know they don’t have pyright protectns. But they still feel really, you know, wound. They’re afonted at the ia that the mach have scraped what is, for them, very much a labor of love.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Some of the fan fictn wrers I spoke to had spent s dog this. They had done as a form of therapy. They had done as an act of love towards the movi and televisn shows that they felt creatively spired by. And they felt like the mach are sentially attackg the very spir of human creativy that they had been prolific about onle.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hmm. Right. This is not necsarily their full time job. This is not how they make money. But you’re sayg taps to, some ways, who they are. It’s part of their inty. And so, on a moral level, they n’t tolerate ChatGPT jt stealg .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Many of them have day jobs where they make money. But their love, their passn is gog to this fan fictn. And they’ve tablished the really tertg ternal l on the foms where they post, where if one person imat another or borrows om another whout attributn, ’s nsired outrageo. They are booted om the muny. They are exmunited.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">They really have a lot of honor how they operate onle. And they want that to be rpected by the mach. And so li of that, they’ve had to get really, really creative about how they rebel or how they revolt agast the AI systems.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And how creative have they gotten? What are they dog?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. So I mean, for stance, one of the first protts they lnched is they got together and started feedg jt absolute nonsense to ChatGPT. They figured if you’re gog to scrape our material, we’re gog to give you total irreverent nonsense to nfe you so you don’t unrstand our characters, you don’t unrstand our storyle, and you nnot mimic what we do.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So they n’t sue, but they n gum up the works. They n basilly jt shove sticks and ston to this mache and try to grd out the gears.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly. I mean, they had to thk creatively. And so they thought, if you want our material, here’s our material. We’re gog to give you nonsense.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And do that tactic work?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, n if they do enough of . And they seem pretty mted and passnate about dog this. But they haven’t stopped there. A lot of them have also started makg their ntent private or removg om the web entirely. And so their thkg is, you know, until now they’ve shared all this eely, but if the mach are gog to e and scrape what they do, they’re gog to start lockg down.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK. Both of the techniqu, though, would seem to be pretty unterproductive if you’re the bs of creatg fan fictn. The first one jt creat a bunch of gibberish, which no one wants to read if you like fan fictn. The send one would lim who n view the fan fictn you wre. So aren’t the rebellns agast plac like ChatGPT jt hurtg the fan fictn muny? Aren’t they jt shootg themselv the foot?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, to a certa gree. And a lot of them say they kd of feel like they are, the short-term, dog somethg that go agast the entire spir of fan fictn. But they feel helpls. And so I thk, at this pot, they’re jt throwg darts at the wall to see what sticks and what works.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">A lot of them have been the muni for a long time, and so their thkg is, well, I might only get to share my wrg wh a uple dozen people, stead of a uple thoand, but at least the mach won’t get me.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So don’t really feel like eher of the two groups, Sheera, that we’ve been talkg about here — the group wh pyright protectns and the amatrs who don’t have pyright protectns — neher of them seem to be much of a match for the AI platforms and stoppg them om scrapg their work.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So that mak me thk that if you’re one of the wrers, the better solutn would be for the US ernment to step wh some simple regulatn that says, ChatGPT, for example, you n’t upload this work unls you pay for . And I know the ernment is havg the nversatns. There have been lots of ngrsnal heargs. So is that a possibily? The ernment says, no uploadg unls you pay the wrers and the creators.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, ’s te that the US ernment is havg talks wh all of the AI pani. But we have to remember that we’re still wag for the US ernment to take actn and e up wh some kd of regulatn about social media that’s been around for over a .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mhm.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The US ernment is very, very slow-actg. And the vast majory of members of Congrs are still wrappg their head around how this technology even works. And so whatever they do is years ahead. And ’s gog to be tempered by the fact that they don’t want to hold back the pani too much.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mhm. Expla that.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The US ernment se self an arms race, at the moment, agast Cha when to AI. Both Cha and the Uned Stat have a lot of scientists that are vted this. They have a lot of tert beg the world lears artificial telligence.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so they know that every b of regulatn they put place potentially holds back those US pani, as opposed to Cha, where there’s very ltle regulatn on data and where there’s a ton of data onle that the Che ernment n easily accs and even give to Che AI pani if they want to speed ahead what’s nsired the AI arms race between the US and Cha.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So the US ernment might have an tert actually sidg wh the AI platforms over the creators bee mak more petive agast our rivals.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. I mean, they don’t want to hamper US AI pani to the pot where they fall behd Cha.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hmm. In which se, feels like the only way for creative typ and for publishg platforms, like “The Tim,” to fight back is to fight back really on their own, for the next however many years. And I’m cur, Sheera, if, your reportg, you thk the plats of the Sarah Silvermans and the publishg platforms is actually gog to make the general public sympathetic and lead to a larger sle phback agast the ChatGPT-like platforms, or if the realy is jt that people like the thgs, they’re exced about them, and that’s gog to overri any of the worri that we’re talkg about.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, look, right now the people that are angry are the people that n see that their work has been pied or scraped and regurgated. It’s people who are already seeg that the mach have gted their work and n py their voic a really realistic way. And we don’t know what’s gog to happen gog forward.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, pani like Google and Facebook are still cidg on how they’re gog to tra their AI. And what happens if Facebook’s AI cis to tra on your data, and n fd posts that you wrote 10 years ago when you were llege and sound jt like you, or if Google cis to read your email and your Google docs, and n say, hey, this is what Michael sounds like when he’s planng a vatn wh his fay? Is the creeps factor then that much more that all of feel like our souls are beg replited by mach?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. And do that mean that sudnly we are all the fan fictn wrer? We are all Sarah Silverman. We are all sudnly seeg the platforms slowly suckg a versn of out and and givg to the world a way that is very weird.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Do bee a “Black Mirror” episo? It’s unclear. But uld be that the AI systems are so extremely eful and beneficial for our liv that none of re. Bee at one pot, people were really mad about Facebook suckg up their data and servg them ads and Google dog the same. And then we ultimately cid that they provid such a eful service that was OK wh that they sucked up our data. And we’re really jt the begng of this technology. And so we don’t know yet.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">You know, one of the fanfic wrers I spoke to actually put a really lovely way that — she was the middle of wrg this new piece of fictn, and happened to be about AI robots vers humans. And she stopped midway through wrg bee she didn’t want to post onle and feed more to the mache.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But she said that where she’s stuck and the thought she’s really stuck on is that this piece of fictn she was wrg, not every AI robot was bad. Some of them were helpful. Some of them were nice. Some of them were good. And some of them were evil. And was really about how the rporatns behd those robots e them that cid whether they were good or evil.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so she felt like she jt had so many qutns about the pani nng the AI, and how they’re g the data, and how they’re gog to license , and what value is gog to be — all the qutns are swirlg around her head. And ’s like, are the robots good or bad? We don’t know yet, and so we don’t feel fortable wh them.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so did she end up postg any of the story onle?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, she has not posted yet. I thk she still has too many qutns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, Sheera, thank you very much. We appreciate .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">sheera enkel</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thank you for havg me. [MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be right back.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Here’s what else you need to know today — on Monday, Rsia said would end an agreement that had allowed Ukrae to export lns of tons of gra to the rt of the world, threateng global food pric and the food supply dozens of untri that rely on the gra.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">The year-old agreement, known as the “Black Sea Gra Iniative,” was a succsful attempt to lim the global repercsns of Rsia’s war on Ukrae. But Rsia has repeatedly plaed that the agreement favored Ukrae over s own people.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg 1</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I eply regret the cisn by the Rsian Feratn to termate the implementatn of the “Black Sea Iniative.”</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Durg a news nference, the head of the Uned Natns said that Rsia’s cisn would e unnecsary sufferg across the world.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg 1</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today’s cisn by the Rsian Feratn will strike a blow to people need everywhere.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michael barbaro</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And smoke om wildfir Canada is returng to the US this week. By Monday afternoon, was affectg about 72 ln Amerins across 29 stat, om the Dakotas to New York. Nearly 900 wildfir are burng across Canada. Of those, the Canadian ernment says that more than 500 of them are burng out of s ntrol.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today’s episo was produced by Clare Toeniskoetter, Rob Szypko and Mooj Zadie. It was eded by Devon Taylor wh help om Lisa Chow, ntas origal mic by Elisheba Ittoop, and was engeered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme mic is by Jim Bnberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonrly.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s for “The Daily.” I’m Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd></dl></div></div></div></div><div style="posn:absolute;width:0;height:0;visibily:hidn;display:none"></div><hear class="css-1vwfk9f" data-breakpot=""><div style="width:100%" data-ttid="flt-layout"><div style="background-image:url()" class="css-18qqsen e1llfg0"><div class="css-1hmsypo e1llfg2"><div class="css-131hid3 e1llfg3"><div class="css-1uhi299 e1llfg1"></div><div class="css-1tloyb6"><div class="css-1kltdsh ehra6vc0"><a href=" class="css-2ne0py"><span class="css-1f76qa2"><img alt="The Daily logo" src="><span>The Daily</span></span></a><span class="css-1lhttlg ehra6vc1"><span class="css-sj5ozi ehra6vc2">Subscribe:</span><ul class="css-hx5n"><li><a href=" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Apple Podsts</a></li><li><a href=" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Google Podsts</a></li></ul></span></div></div><div class="css-1r0dpua e1llfg4"><div class="css-1gu519p edye5kn0"><div><h1 class="css-1xbyom1 edye5kn2">The Wrers’ Revolt Agast A.I. 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