bars</tle><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_65hRV2Qwn" class="css-1fxvzwo" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_ILVvi2tqx" class="css-1wnday1" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC"><rect x="34" width="6" height="36" id="el_qw_T_tngXw"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_p_9Pm85Ac" class="css-fwki7z" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_WxG3R40yd" class="css-t3i5e6" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU"><rect x="22.67" width="6" height="36" id="el_lf9GrROk6j"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_kYNRGDfcw" class="css-t9te0w" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_3c3bzSjOJ" class="css-1r5375t" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw"><rect x="11.33" width="6" height="36" id="el_-iueO8klO0"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_y_fKcpSxn" class="css-qknaag" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_R6bNB6_Ys" class="css-1vd04" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC"><rect width="6" height="36" id="el_dS5TKNZZ5w"></rect></g></g></g></svg></div><div><div class="css-1t7yl1y">0:00<!-- -->/<!-- -->43:21</div><div class="css-og85jy">-<!-- -->43:21</div></div></div></div></hear><div class="css-uzyn7p"><div class="css-1vxyw"><p class="css-1nng8z9">transcript</p><h2 class="css-9wqu2x">Why Katie Couric Owned Up to Her Regrets</h2><h4 class="css-qsd3hm">The former news anchor opens up about why she opened up.</h4><time dateTime="2021-10-28T09:00:10.000Z" class="css-1e605">2021-10-28T05:00:10-04:00</time></div><dl class="css-p98d0w"><dt class="css-xx7kwh"></dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[THEME MUSIC]</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">(SINGING) When you walk the room, do you have sway?</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m Kara Swisher, and you’re listeng to “Sway.” My gut today is Katie Couric. She spent more than a on the “Today” show greetg Amerins on weekday morngs.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (katie uric)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">A new rock group lled Hanson is makg teenage hearts beat a ltle faster the days. Three brothers om Tulsa, Oklahoma, Isaac, Zac, and Taylor, are here. They’re part of the group, Hanson.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">In 2006, she ma history as the natn’s first solo female nightly news anchor on a major work.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">This is the ‘CBS Eveng News wh Katie Couric.’</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (katie uric)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hi, everyone. I’m very happy to be wh you tonight.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The days, she has a new book out. It’s a memoir that tails her own rise, the seemgly zero-sum game she found herself wh other female news anchors, and of urse, her relatnship wh her “Today” show -anchor, Matt Ler, who, you may rell, was fired 2017 after multiple allegatns of sexual misnduct. The book also expos Couric to some criqu. In particular, she’s drawn heat for edg her 2016 terview wh Ruth Bar Gsburg an effort to protect the late Supreme Court jtice. So I wanted to ask Couric about her reer, her regrets, and why the world she cid to wre such a ntroversial book. Katie Couric, wele to “Sway.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thank you, Kara Swisher.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I want to start wh the reactn to this book. The memoir is lled “Gog There.” It’s been makg a ton of headl every day. And everyone seems to have a py and is mentg on .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, I don’t thk everyone do, actually. I thk they’re jt mentg on the ments.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right, so you’ve taken the ia of wrg a tell-all pretty far. There’s stuff here about your slave-owng anctry, your prsn, your bulimia. There’s also harsh cricism of TV broadstg A-listers, even admissns about your own edorial mistak. So talk about why you did this way. And what was the impet for dog that?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, I never thought of tellg my story any other way. I mean, what’s the pot of wrg a book that’s jt your greatt hs or a victory lap or a sanized versn of your life? I thought that was sort of a waste of time and not particularly eful. So I even feel unfortable wh the tell-all bee I thk that nnot, Kara, this certa salac qualy that actually, I don’t thk is the book. I thk ’s been willfully misreprented.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">For every funny, kd of cheeky or wry observatn I make, there are 11 posive observatns I make about someone. And so I thk there has been this kd of weird narrative, really based sort of this tabloid clickba mentaly, that do not reprent the book at all. I mean, what do the people want? Do they want this “My Ltle Pony” book? I don’t que unrstand. The are my life experienc. I’m tellg them as they happened and as I perceive them om my pot of view, clearly.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So tell me why you thk that is. Were you surprised by the reactn?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m not that surprised bee I’m not naive about how the culture has changed and sort of the environment we’re . Would I have preferred to have someone who actually read the whole book who uld give a fuller perspective on ? Yeah, of urse.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But the other thg someone publishg told me, good reviews don’t sell books. I thought that was such a sad statement about where we are as a culture. Good reviews don’t sell books. That’s sort of sick. But I thk is what is. I really love my book. I’m proud of my book. It’s really hont. It’s very self-cril. As Frank Rich wrote me, I’m so happy you didn’t wre some unctuo B.S. What is the pot?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right, what is the pot? All right, so you’re gettg some heat for not beg as genero as you uld be wh your female lleagu, although you’re statg you weren’t. But my perspective is that the qutns are fair to ask, but the sh to judgment is not particularly fair. Nobody really go after, say, Chris Cuomo askg if he’s mentorg Don Lemon, et cetera, or thgs like that.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I even wre about that. I wre about that. I wre about the fact that I like all the people, but ’s a petive dtry. I wre about Gee Stephanopoulos and David Muir havg a real e to J about who got to anchor special reports, so much so that Bob Iger had to fly to New York to broker some kd of agreement. But that’s sort of a one-day story. And the kd of very ep-seated implic bias that we all, I thk, have, we jt, I thk, regrs and fall back on the sexist trop.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And ’s funny. I gus, I thought I uld talk hontly about that bee I always feel like thgs have changed. And then I wonr, have they really? So I do thk — I hate to say bee sounds so hackneyed, but there ntu to be this very tense double standard when to judgg men vers women.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Vers women. Well, one of the thgs I’m gog to quote back to you. You wre, “Have you ever nsired maybe not everyone is gog to like you?” When you were wrg this, did you worry about that ia?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Not really. That wasn’t my prevailg sentiment. It was really to speak my tth, to talk about somethg om my pot of view. So I wasn’t like, oh, is this person gog to be mad at me? And hontly, I thought the people who might be mad at me are people who serve to be lled out for their behavr, like the Jeff Fagers of the world, you know?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Like the L Moonv of the world. I fd fascatg that that stuff hasn’t been picked up, really.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Mm-hmm, you lled L Moonv a close talker wh bad breath. Havg experienced that, I would agree. I would say that is accurate.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk Howard Stern said he never noticed that, and I wanted to say bee you’re too tall, Howard.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right, right, that’s te. Fair pot. All right, but let’s talk about where the foc really has been, which is other female news rrponnts, eher anchors or other thgs. You spent some time dissectg your rivalry wh Diane Sawyer, which I thk is normal bee really was que a rivalry. You wre that her voice was, quote, “full of money.” You were once fierce rivals.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That was a “Great Gatsby” quote.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, “Great Gatsby” quote. That’s right, exactly, for Daisy Buchanan. She was anchorg “Good Morng Ameri.” You were dog the “Today” show. Talk about that rivalry and the reactn to you talkg about . Quote, “It got back to that on the set of ‘Good Morng Ameri.’ She always has an eye on the monor tuned to our show. Apparently, one day, while watchg me, she said to no one particular, ‘That woman mt be stopped.’”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, I thought that was so funny. Hontly, I kd of wrote about that whole thg a way that — was so ridiculo. And I actually wrote credibly nice thgs about Diane, how much I admired her, how I really watched her when she was the State Department rrponnt, verg thgs on “60 Mut.” I thk that I’m very tongue--cheek a lot of this stuff and, as I said, sort of more wry observatns than snarks and jt lghg at the whole suatn. So, yeah, I thk that was jt a very funny moment time when the big gets, there were all the women, Barbara Walters, Diane, Connie —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Connie Chung.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Jane Pley — yeah, Connie Chung — Jane Pley, to a lser extent. Jt how feroc was to get the terviews and the lengths that people went to, to get them. For that moment time, was jt nutty and funny. And I’m kd of makg fun of the whole thg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Now, another one was the rivalry you explore wh Deborah Norville, who you replaced as -anchor on the “Today” show. You wre about her, quote, “relentls perfectn” and her lack of rapport wh Bryant Gumbel. Did you have a ntent relatnship wh her?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Not at all. In fact, if you also read, I say she was thst to the homewrecker narrative through no flt of her own.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Between her and Jane Pley.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly, exactly. I thk basilly was the bonehead cisns of the mal charge that put her this posn. I talk about how smart she was and how awful this mt have been for her. It was a cisn that was ma. It was handled clumsily that was about phg Jane out bee she was 39, and they wanted someone who appealed to younger mos. But I say really nice thgs about Deborah, too, but somehow, aga, good reviews don’t sell books. Nice ments don’t get clicks.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right, no, she said she was stunned by and hurt by your ments. Has she reached out to her or vice versa?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, but I actually am sendg a book to her and tellg her that I’ve always admired her gracns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So read . Read , Deborah, before you—</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I was sad bee I don’t want her to feel that way.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, another one was Ashleigh Banfield. You wrote your book, which I thought was que a sentence, “For a mute there, Ashleigh Banfield was the next big thg. I’d heard through the grapeve her father was tellg anyone who listened that she was gog to replace me. In that environment, mentorship seemed like self-sabotage.” That’s a really important thg to adm to yourself, that you don’t want to help someone bee the way they have set up, is sort of woman-on-woman pro wrtlg, sentially.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, aga, I thk that’s kd of a ttament how hont I am and how self-cril I am the book. I thk I start that paragraph by sayg, I wonr about my part all of this and the fact that at tim I thk when an executive is lookg at someone — this isn’t Ashleigh, but bee of her bee-stung lips and the way she would potentially look a flap jacket verg a war. And I thk somebody gettg phed out for a younger mol, I don’t want people to thk this was a fg attu that I rried wh me all the time. But there were tim when I thk I was secure and protective of my job.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Banfield did rpond to the passage om the book. Let’s play a clip om her.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-xx7kwh">archived rerdg (ashleigh banfield)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">There’s so much that I learned om Katie Couric. And I’ll be hont wh you. It sadns me that we uldn’t llaborate. It sadns me that she didn’t want to mentor me. I wasn’t that much younger than Katie, que ankly. I thk we uld have had a really good workg relatnship together. I wished I’d had that. And que ankly, I thk of mentorg women this bs as one of the bt vtments. It’s not jt TV. It’s everythg.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">When you hear that, what do you say to yourself as a younger person? What would you wish you had done?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, I thk that if probably women — if there had been more posns and women hadn’t been almost pted agast each other, that’s really flatterg. I’m glad that she thks that. And she never reached out to me. I probably should have taken upon myself to reach out to her. But I thk when you hear someone openly sayg they’re gog to replace you, that’s hard.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Did Ashleigh Banfield actually say she was gog to replace you?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, was her dad. It was several people sayg her dad was walkg around tellg people that. And I gus — I don’t know.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What did you thk would st you at the time to mentor them, even if they were sayg, I’m gog to replace Katie Couric, and even if there was srcy? I thk a lot of the executiv above you play on the ia of srcy.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Y, I thk so, too, and I thk to make people feel secure a weird way, bee I thk that’s a way they exert power, makg you feel slightly stabilized. I gus, who knows? Who knows? I thk, obvly, I liked my job, and I wanted to stay . So what would have st me? I gus, potentially, I thought at the time, my job, right?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What about now? Beg more genero now, do you thk really would have st you your job? Or is that the way they jt make you feel?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk, possibly, ’s the way they ma me feel at the time. But you know, I thk ’s really important to pot out, Kara, I mean, there were sr of women that I supported throughout my reer, you know, who I mentored. I went to bat for them.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, I thk this has taken an outsized role the narrative bee I was hont about sometim feelg secure and terrorial. But certaly don’t reprent the bulk of my reer or my relatnships wh so many women wh whom I worked.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Do you thk this ia of zero-sum game for women broadstg is over? You said you didn’t possibly — or do some works want more genr diversy on mera?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk they absolutely do. I thk the viewers are mandg . The culture is mandg . So y, I thk thgs have changed dramatilly. And you know, listen, even the ia of two women as the two ma hosts on the “Today” show, I tried to ph as much as I uld wh the male-female dynamic when I got the job, sayg I didn’t want to do if there wasn’t a 50-50 divisn of labor.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That was pretty radil back then 1991 to say, I don’t want to be wdow drsg on this show. I vered the Pentagon. I worked lol news. This is who I want to reprent when people see the imag every morng. So you know, we’ve e a long way, I thk.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, speakg of that 50-50, when you were hired to replace Deborah Norville, you wanted to spl the hostg duti 50-50 wh Bryant Gumbel. Instead, you agreed to spltg 49-51. I don’t even unrstand this. Can you talk a ltle b about dog that? I get why you would. But talk about havg to settle for 49-51.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. I mean, I thk that was a term of art. I thk was sayg that every effort would be ma to make sure that I was an equal partner. There were some thgs that they uldn’t really promise on. Bryant had to open every show. He had to throw to mercial breaks, throw to weather.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I thk was important for him to be “ charge.” But the fact that I even got people thkg about this and nsirg, you know, we’re gog to make sure some of the tougher terviews and hard news terviews go to Katie and the tomatic flt isn’t to the male anchor —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Was actually kd of a big al.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Do you — when you thk about , when you’re tryg to ph for that, one of the thgs you wrote the book is, “My se and the ebullience that me wh had bee my fg feature. At a certa pot, reporters cid the word for me was perky. The adjective stuck like powred sugar to a jelly donut. I hated . I thought ma me sound unser.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s a narrative that tak hold about you when you’re tryg to be the ser journalist. Did you thk about how, obvly, dogged you. And at the same time, you were aware of the posive parts of .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right, right. I mean, I wre a lot about that, Kara, about that was sort of a flt le throughout my reer. You know, I thk if I hadn’t been on a morng show, I thk that would have been ls of a dilemma for me.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But I thk when you’re on a morng show, you are required to have this really tertg mix of beg fun and lighthearted, enjoyg the okg segments, drsg up on Halloween, dog all those thgs, and yet, also verg ser news stori.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So was a tight wire. And I thk that bee I am kd of a playful and sometim funny person, that that that stuff me very naturally to me. The other stuff, though, was another really important si of me. And so I thk that, pecially for a woman, pecially for a dimutive woman wh a big gummy se and a lot of enthiasm, and you know, outgog and iendly, I was always tryg to square those two sis of my personaly.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Did you ever feel you had to move to a different narrative?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, certaly, I had to when I went to CBS. I mean, that was a clear example of I had to show only my ser si. And I thk people had bee so acctomed to both sis on the “Today” show. And perhaps, those who didn’t watched the “Today” show only knew me for the lighter moments. I thk that that’s one of the reasons I had so much difficulty transng to the eveng news.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All right. So one of the thgs, obvly, you had to wre about was Matt Ler, and ncel culture, et cetera. When he was acced of sexual misnduct the workplace and was fired 2017, talk about what you knew and what you didn’t know about what was happeng there.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, sure. I thk that there’s one thg to know a nebulo way that someone is kd of a d, right? And we had all the phemisms for people like, they were a player. You’ve got a sense that, even though we never discsed , that Matt had an unhappy marriage, and he liked women. But you never knew specifics about that.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I thk I was jt really surprised — perhaps I shouldn’t have been — that this kd of behavr was gog on wh unrlgs. You know, ’s one thg to be like, oh, she’s so hot, or talkg about a movie star. And ’s another thg when you hear someone is really takg advantage of people.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And was jt this really lasciv si that I didn’t know existed. I mean, I didn’t the extent of this behavr and that was gog on si the halls of NBC.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So one of the thgs is, a lot of people ask, why didn’t you ask that qutn? Do you thk about that? When you said was — your silence was afeng, maybe even crimatg, maybe I should have ntacted the people.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. You know, I thk hdsight, possibly. But you have to nsir the culture at the time. There were a lot of extramaral affairs gog on that were gossiped about. And there were mors about boss havg relatnships wh assistants. And was all the ether.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I thk, uld I have gone around and done a survey? Possibly. I mean, uld I have been like, what’s gog on here? You know, maybe. But was so part and parcel of the culture. And I was this weird posn. And maybe was wrong for me to thk that that felt very gossipy. And I never wanted to partake this gossipy aspect of where I was workg. You know what I mean? I kd of — felt appropriate.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Should I have maybe taken more serly and said, hey, to the print of the news divisn, maybe you shouldn’t be dog this?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Possibly. But that would have been a very difficult posn for me to be put . And were there tim where I uld have? You know, that’s hard to say.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. You discsed this the book. One story you did clu was how he sent an email to a producer apparently by mistake, askg her to spread butter on his thighs.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Or on hers or somethg. It was jt —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Her thighs or whatever. Butter, thighs.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. I remember feelg like, what the world is gog on and thkg, should I approach this woman who was the tend recipient of that. Or would she be mortified, right? And at the time, I thk our unrstandg of what was a nsensual relatnship is extremely different than is now.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I do say I should have approached her and said, is everythg OK? But I thk at the time, she didn’t e to me. And I wasn’t sure about was this a nsensual enunter, and would I embarrass her?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Did you say anythg to him?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I didn’t.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You didn’t.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I didn’t. I jt remember thkg, what?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What and then nothg, and then not llg him. Correct?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, yeah.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So also your book, you clud a msage you sent to Ler three weeks before the sexual misnduct allegatns me out, which retrospect, wow, I’m amazed you put here. Quote, “OMG. What the hell did you put my drk? Phenobarbal??? Thanks for beg such a good iend. I treasure you. xo.” That was a joke, rrect? He’s never been appropriate wh you, right?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, no. Never. Never, never. I thk was — I thk I wrote about that dner where I felt closer to Matt, you know, like, where I actually talked to him about thgs and a way that I had never really talked to him.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so I thk that was a reflectn of me allowg myself to be ndid, but that was . No. He was never ever, ever appropriate wh me, ever. He was always very rpectful. Yeah. Ever. I n say that wh plete certaty.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK. So you wrote also about how great your on-air chemistry was wh Matt Ler, which absolutely was, but you don’t speak to him anymore. Do you miss him?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You know, listen. I thk the whole thg is really sad that he was really so — so llo and so abive to women he worked wh. I feel really disappoted him. I felt terrible bee I thk he did a lot of damage to women.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">There are others I reached out to, and they wouldn’t talk to me, who I spect might have had this happen to them, you know. I probably miss the si of Matt that I thought I knew. But wh this new rmatn and a clearer, more holistic picture, do I? No.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Can I ask you? You and I have talked about this. “The Morng Show” is back aga. It’s on Apple TV Pl. It’s spired by morng show wars. And ’s clearly about you and Matt Ler. It jt is. I don’t know how else to say . I actually like a lot. And I know you do not. Is that rrect or not?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, early on, I was sayg that I don’t thk they pture a lot of thgs. I’ve never said I don’t like actually. I thk ’s tertg. I thk ’s — some of rgs te. I thk this sort of dualy of how the Matt Ler character is portrayed like, when he walks to the big celebratn the stud, you know, that seemed very real bee I was fillg for Savannah when Matt had his 20th anniversary on the “Today” show.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And there was a si of Matt that people really liked, you know, that adoratn that was exprsed on that day. And then this other kd of si that, when he is Las Vegas wh this young woman. That to me, that kd of strange way he sced her and the nfn that ensued after that enunter and the llons I saw of him walkg past her the hallway jt kd of like, this was jt a nqut.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And her kd of takg this on her shoulrs, I thought that rang very te om everythg I learned about what was gog on behd the scen.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I thought they did that very ftly.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What about Jennifer Aniston portrayg you?</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">A versn of you.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, she says she was portrayg Diane Sawyer, which I thought was tertg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, no. Maybe an amalgam of the two of you.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. I thk is an amalgam of que a lot of people.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. So when you thk about what happened to Matt Ler and others, this book, you wre a lot of thgs. You talked about attendg a at party llege UVA where pledg — as waers were wearg blackface. Do you worry about, I don’t know, this ia of gettg nceled. I have lots of var and plex and nuanced thoughts on the issue. But is somethg you thk about at all?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No. Not really. I mean, I thk I’m very clear eyed about the culture that existed and my role . And the way we vered news stori back the early ‘90s, the way we vered Rodney Kg, I thk we’d be better off if people openly talked about the thgs and the forc that were at work at a given time.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">You know, I wanted to be hont about the environment I was . And ’s very easy, I thk, to look at some of the suatns through the lens of 2021. And that’s what I tried to do actually the book, sayg this was really fucked up.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I raised the fact that — I talked about missg whe woman syndrome. But seems to be much more the nversatn now wh the way people vered Gabby Peto and her murr. I talked about askg Matthew Shepard’s parents if they were disappoted when they found out he was gay.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. I remember that qutn, Katie. Katie, I did not like that qutn, I remember, at the time when you asked . I was like, why is she askg that.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Like, why? Why is his flt?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. And then all the way to verg #MeToo and terviewg Jim Obergefell, the platiff the Supreme Court same-sex marriage se. So you know, I thk I am very open and hont about my own shortgs.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And mistak you’ve ma.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. And bld spots.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So one big ntroversy the book so far has been around your 2016 terview wh Ruth Bar Gsburg and your disclosure the book that you whheld some rmatn, specifilly that you admted her opn that kneelg durg the natnal anthem showed “a ntempt for ernment that has ma possible for their parents and grandparents to live a cent life, which they probably would not have lived plac they me om.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Talk about that. And do you regret whholdg that uld be newsmakg. I know you went to two people, and they gave you oppose opns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, yeah. And I thk ’s really important to make sure that we talk about what I did clu, which she said, specifilly about Col Kaepernick, that was dumb and disrpectful and that people who kneel durg the natnal anthem, while was wh their nstutnal rights, was stupid and arrogant.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And y, I do regret . I do regret . I was lled and told that she misspoke and didn’t really unrstand the qutn, hadn’t been followg the story. But I wish I had jt clud all of . She clarified later and said she misspoke and her ments were harsh and dismissive</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk that I was — I remember thkg what was she talkg about exactly. You know, what did she mean exactly? And I should have asked a follow-up. But I thk ultimately, y, I should have clud and let people make their own cisns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Or let clean up herself.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly, exactly. I don’t thk I wrote about that as -pth as I uld have. But I was jt tryg to expla, sometim we have a dilemma. And maybe I’m the only journalist Ameri who has ever had this happen to them. And I thk that yeah, I thk I ma a mistake there.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You said you’re a big RBG fan.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Obvly, Brian Stelter said he worri the admissn hurts the media’s reputatn. Your rponse?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, I’m sure Brian Stelter is pure as the driven snow. And he’s never given an opn that is — reeks of partisanship.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">How do you rpond to people say this is proof of the left-wg media bias they’ve been plag about all along?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, all I know is I’ve been cricized throughout my reer by liberals. had a w when I said that the surge seemed to be workg. I was a propagandist for the U.S ary at that pot. They got mad that I wasn’t tougher on Condi Rice, although I thk I asked her some really tough qutns. Republins certaly have cricized me. So I thk that you get om all sis.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And when Walter Cronke took me out to dner before I went to CBS, he said, I know I’m dog my job when everybody’s mad at me. I thk ’s — I mean, I thk this has really been tted the current landspe the era of Donald Tmp. Everybody has picked a si. And is there any media that’s nsired not one or the other?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Is there?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I would say, possibly, the work news shows and PBS, probably Judy Woodff. But ’s creasgly difficult when people are perpetuatg this notn that the electn was rigged. And what is , sixty urts have said that’s not te. There was no malfeasance gog on the electn. Or that the vacce don’t work.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, now is this fact vers fictn. It’s not left, right. It’s right, wrong. So if you’re potg out that the electn wasn’t rigged, you’re tomatilly a member of the liberal media. So if you’re tellg the tth, that’s now nsired a polil statement.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be back a mute. If you like this terview and want to hear others, follow on your favore podst app. You’ll be able to tch up on “Sway” episos you may have missed, like my nversatn wh CNN anchor Jake Tapper. And you’ll get new on livered directly to you. More wh Katie Couric after the break.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I’d love to fish up talkg about the future of news then. You obvly worked for Yahoo. You were Yahoo’s global news anchor until 2017. You wanted to make meangful ntent.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And you wrote the book, the Yahoo folks were untg on me to brg the big nam that drove traffic, particularly Tmp, who is the clickit of clickba, and I wasn’t liverg. Marissa, meanwhile, seemed pletely unaware, disengaged. You’re talkg about Marissa Mayer, who was the C.E.O. at the time. Where do you image news gog?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. I mean, gosh. I was thkg about the Yahoo stuff. This was before, I thk, algorhms had really, really taken over bee this was more about the home page wh sktop puters before everythg beme mobile. But I’m really worried about . I worry about where people are gettg their news and rmatn. I worry about algorhms. I worry about misrmatn. It’s spreadg like wildfire.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And what do they say? Li make around the world before the tth has time to tie s shoelac or whatever is I thk we’re jt gog through this massive transformatn. I do feel really good about The Washgton Post and The New York Tim. The Washgton Post is nsired too liberal. I mean, I people who don’t tst that. The New York Tim, of urse, there are people that feel ’s gone too far.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I thk we’re jt this perd of transn that everybody is able to create their own tths, right? Their own silos, their own rmatn bubbl. And bee there is so much g at you, and I thk that pendg on your predisposn terms of your hatred for the ernment or the Democratic party or whatever is, jt gets, I thk, subsumed by people who agree wh you.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So how would you redo then? Viewership has been clg for all three major morng shows today, “CBS This Morng” and “Good Morng Ameri.” What would you do to fix ?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Are you talkg about the morng shows?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. For example, pickg one thg where a lot of people get their rmatn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. I mean, I thk that’s very, very tricky. Bee while I thk MSNBC and CNN vers Fox, they picked their dience, right? They are speakg to a certa dience that pretty much holds those pots of view.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">In the morng, I thk people are tryg to appeal to everyone. So ’s very difficult to, I thk, ver a lot of the ser stori that are so divisive, right, bee the anchors are gog to be acced of beg one si or the other. And so I thk ’s tricky bee they don’t want to lose any more viewers than they’re already losg om people gog to other plac for their news and rmatn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What would you do there? Would be onle? Would be —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk they uld take a lot more advantage of dog thgs onle. But I don’t know if ’s gog to solve polarizatn or this whole kd of distst the media. But terms of jt keepg them vibrant and important, I thk I would do a lot more onle.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But you also don’t want to nnibalize the viewers who are turng on the televisn, right? But I do thk that I thk I’ve seen a lot more transparency om news anizatns. Like, The Washgton Post will give bs of their reporters, where they worked. And so you know where they’re g om.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk there needs to be a better sense of the reporters who are sharg that rmatn. But I would fely emphasize more onle material. People get up and they turn on their phon, right? They ed to get up and turn on their televisns.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Phon are never turned off, Katie, jt so you know.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. But you know what I mean.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I turn off my phone.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Do you?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sometim. Yeah, I try to.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You’re the only person Ameri who do. Yeah.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. I try to. And I try to get out of the bedroom. But —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So you don’t have a solutn to how you would make ?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I don’t. I’d like to ask you, though, what would you do, Kara?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I would stop dog them. I don’t thk people — I thk they’re a clg asset. I would do them until I stop makg money. I don’t thk —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They’re still makg a lot of money,</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They are.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You know as —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Make them silly then. Make them silly. I don’t —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Fragmentatn is happeng. And they’re — but they’re still one of those plac that gets a big dience, as do the eveng newssts. But their dience is gettg olr and olr.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Would you ever go back to eher of those two thgs?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, no. I mean, I was really lucky. I really appreciate the opportuni I had. But no, I don’t thk so. Sometim, I miss the mararie. You know, sometim I miss beg an anizatn where you n talk to smart people and n thgs by them, and you’re tryg to figure thgs out and what should we ver, and how about lookg at this story this way.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">You know, I love that kd of thg. But I n do that wh my team at my pany and say, hey, why don’t we do somethg on the fact that Gabby Peto is gettg so much attentn, you know. I raised that —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">More attentn to Gabby Peto by talkg about —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, no, no, no, no. But no. But let’s talk about what’s really happeng other rners of the untry, right? So I’m still always readg thgs and thkg about thgs and how n we explore them, how n we look at them a documentary.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Would you go back to the ter?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. I thk unr the rporate masthead, that people are jt as powerful as dividual brands. You don’t really need to work at a place that has a big — a masthead or a big bronze number on the door. I really do like what I’m dog now. I have a lot of flexibily. And the public square has bee so vic that ’s really hard to have a nversatn about anythg, I thk, whout gettg slghtered.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I like what I’m dog now. And I thk I’m speakg to an dience that’s terted some of the thgs we’re talkg about. I love dog podsts and talkg to tertg people. So you know, I thk I’m dog what I’m dog and really likg .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What was your proust moment an terview?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I wouldn’t say Sarah Pal was my proust moment. Bee I thk, as I said, was hard to watch her stgglg. But I thought was very revelatory, that terview.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That was a perfect terview.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Why?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Bee you were not unfair. But you asked exactly — I don’t thk a lot of people sort of pile on. Like, that you took advantage — you didn’t take advantage of her any way.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It was tertg bee ially, everyone thought was very fair. And then I beme like, once aga, I’m the liberal media. And was unfair.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So the Pal terview.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Probably.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk you changed the electn.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I thk I rmed a certa part of the electorate that probably thought they felt more fortable wh her ndidacy than they did afterwards. Yeah.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Who would you want to terview today? Marjorie Taylor Greene, Steve Bannon, Donald Tmp?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, God. Oh, God. I don’t know.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Zuckerberg?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, yeah. I would like to terview Zuckerberg. That’s a good one.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">He’s not talkg to me so maybe you’ll get —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah. I don’t thk he’s talkg to me eher. I thk probably I’d fd tertg to talk to Kamala Harris. But I don’t know how hont she would be.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What would be your first qutn?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Are they settg you up for failure?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What do you thk her answer would be? No, Katie.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No. I thk would be — I don’t know. I’m tryg to thk of somebody else who I thk would be really tertg. Right now I thk Ted Sarandos would be really tertg. Ted Sarandos and Dave Chappelle.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Together?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Maybe together and maybe have Roxane Gay there too.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">She would be fantastic. In your book, you wrote about this dualy of yourself, “You’re one way or the other, you’re eher a cute girl who do featur or a ser one who vers the Pentagon. You’re eher Katie or Kathere.” Have you cid which one you are?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You know, I’m fortable wh Katie. I really am. I thk Kathere was a flt for not beg taken serly. I thk I am taken serly. And so Katie’s ol.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK, then. Thank you, Katie.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">katie uric</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thank you, Kara. [MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">kara swisher</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">“Sway” is a productn of New York Tim Opn. It’s produced by Nayeema Raza, Blakeney Schick, Matt Kwong, Daphne Chen, and Cal O’Keefe. Eded by Nayeema Raza, wh origal mic by Isaac Jon. Mixg by Sonia Herrero and Carole Sabourd, and fact checkg by Kate Sclair. Special thanks to Shannon Bta and Mahima Chablani</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">If you’re a podst app already, you know how to get your podsts so follow this one. If you’re listeng on The Tim webse and want to get each new episo of “Sway” livered to you wh a breath mt for L Moonv, download any podsts app then search for “Sway” and follow the show. We release every Monday and Thursday. Thanks for listeng.</p></dd></dl></div></div></div></div><div style="posn:absolute;width:0;height:0;visibily:hidn;display:none"></div><hear class="css-1vwfk9f" data-breakpot=""><div style="width:100%" data-ttid="flt-layout"><div style="background-image:url()" class="css-18qqsen e1llfg0"><div class="css-1hmsypo e1llfg2"><div class="css-131hid3 e1llfg3"><div class="css-1uhi299 e1llfg1"></div><div class="css-1tloyb6"><div class="css-1kltdsh ehra6vc0"><a href=" class="css-2ne0py"><span class="css-1f76qa2"><img alt="Sway logo" src="><span>Sway</span></span></a></div></div><div class="css-1r0dpua e1llfg4"><div class="css-1gu519p edye5kn0"><div><h1 class="css-1xbyom1 edye5kn2">Why Katie Couric Owned Up to Her Regrets</h1><h2 class="css-rlih edye5kn3">The former news anchor opens up about why she opened up.</h2></div><span class="css-lsnb14 edye5kn4"></span><button type="button" class="css-w62hzm" aria-haspopup="te" aria-label="Show Aud Transcript"><div class="css-1vd84sn"><svg xmlns=" width="24" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 20" fill="#F8F8F8"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M0 0H24V20H0V0ZM3 7H21V9H3V7ZM21 11H3V13H21V11ZM3 15H21V17H3V15ZM11 3H3V5H11V3Z" fill="#F8F8F8"></path></svg><span class="css-16bt4xd">Transcript</span></div></button></div><div class="css-1g7y0i5 e1drnplw0"><button tabx="100" class="css-1rtlxy" type="button" aria-label="close"><svg width="60" height="60" viewBox="0 0 60 60" fill="none"><circle cx="30" cy="30" r="30" fill="whe" fill-opacy="0.9"></circle><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M38.4844 20.1006L39.8986 21.5148L21.5138 39.8996L20.0996 38.4854L38.4844 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M21.5156 20.1006L20.1014 21.5148L38.4862 39.8996L39.9004 38.4854L21.5156 20.1006Z" fill="black"></path></svg></button><div class="css-rdbib0 e1drnplw1"></div><div class="css-18ow4sz e1drnplw2"><div aria-labelledby="modal-tle" role="regn"><hear class="css-1bzlfz"><div class="css-mln36k" id="modal-tle">transcript</div><button type="button" class="css-1igvuto"><div class="css-f40pzg"></div><span>Back to Sway</span></button><div class="css-f6lhej" data-ttid="transcript-playback-ntrols"><div class="css-1ialerq"><button tabx="99" type="button" class="css-1t9gw" aria-label="play"><svg xmlns=" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none"><path fill-le="evenodd" clip-le="evenodd" d="M8 13.7683V6L14.5 9.88415L8 13.7683Z" fill="var(--lor-ntent-sendary,#363636)"></path><circle cx="10" cy="10" r="9.25" stroke="var(--lor-stroke-primary,#121212)" stroke-width="1.5"></circle></svg></button><div class="css-1701swk"><svg xmlns=" viewBox="0 0 40 36" id="el_0kpS9qL_S"><tle>bars

gay kara