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*BEAR-MAGAZINE.COM* IS TOM GAY IN THE GREAT GATSBY

bars</tle><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_65hRV2Qwn" class="css-1fxvzwo" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC_ILVvi2tqx" class="css-1wnday1" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_oZ84Hna1GC"><rect x="34" width="6" height="36" id="el_qw_T_tngXw"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_p_9Pm85Ac" class="css-fwki7z" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU_WxG3R40yd" class="css-t3i5e6" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_mYVjkduhMU"><rect x="22.67" width="6" height="36" id="el_lf9GrROk6j"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_kYNRGDfcw" class="css-t9te0w" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw_3c3bzSjOJ" class="css-1r5375t" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_o-EuxhgoAw"><rect x="11.33" width="6" height="36" id="el_-iueO8klO0"></rect></g></g></g><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_y_fKcpSxn" class="css-qknaag" data-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="0"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC_R6bNB6_Ys" class="css-1vd04" ata-animator-group="te" data-animator-type="2"><g id="el_F7mSMPhqpC"><rect width="6" height="36" id="el_dS5TKNZZ5w"></rect></g></g></g></svg></div><div><div class="css-1t7yl1y">0:00<!-- -->/<!-- -->31:54</div><div class="css-og85jy">-<!-- -->31:54</div></div></div></div></hear><div class="css-uzyn7p"><div class="css-1vxyw"><p class="css-1nng8z9">transcript</p><h2 class="css-9wqu2x">Ameri, Shall I Compare Thee to a Chevy Volt?</h2><h4 class="css-qsd3hm">Move over, apple pie. We’re pickg new Amerin symbols.</h4><time dateTime="2023-07-06T09:00:13.000Z" class="css-1e605">2023-07-06T05:00:13-04:00</time></div><dl class="css-p98d0w"><dt class="css-xx7kwh"></dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">This transcript was created g speech regnn software. While has been reviewed by human transcribers, may nta errors. Please review the episo d before quotg om this transcript and email wh any qutns.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">From New York Tim Opn, I’m Michelle Cottle.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m Ross Douthat.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m Carlos Lozada.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m Lydia Polgreen, and this is “Matter of Opn.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today, we’re gog to do somethg a ltle b different. We are gog to try to fe Ameri via cultural objects and artifacts. Do anyone want to expla what this is all about?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Sure. So basilly, the edors at New York Tim Opn reached out partmentwi and asked everyone to wre about a cultural artifact that, our view, explas the Uned Stat of Ameri. Now is that right? Is that what you guys got out of the assignment?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We were given no other poters. The ia is that It n be anythg. It n be a movie. It n be a book. It n be —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">A song?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">A song.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Could be like a leral object? Could be a Roomba? Could you say — or the Chevy Volt?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Ooh.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">How the Chevy Volt explas Ameri.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I sort of assumed had to be a work of art, but maybe I read the assignment wrong.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">This sounds like you didn’t actually pay attentn to what you were asked to do.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, they sent a lot of emails, and I read one of them, I gus.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I hear that’s how you al wh edors. Yeah.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">OK, who wants to go first?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’ll go first. I picked “The Great Gatsby,” which is a book that I image a large percentage of our listeners were, at least, assigned high school, or afterward, which is probably a better time to read . It’s a slightly odd book, actually, when you thk about to hand to a 13 or 14-year-old and say, here you go. This is your untry. But I thk there’s a lot of ways which the reason “The Great Gatsby” is nsired a great Amerin novel, is that sort of is associated wh var ias of what Ameri is.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But when I wrote about , I sort of zeroed on this ia of that Ameri is a society very much love wh our own nocence, wh the ia that we are sort of startg over, sort of a blank slate on this new ntent. And Ameri also really lik money. We like a lot. And rencilg those two impuls, one sort of relig and ialistic and one crass and jt, well, jt crass, right, is sort of a key challenge our culture.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And what’s strikg about Gatsby is that he’s a rich, on-the-make crimal, who’s tryg to cuckold his neighbor across the water. That don’t sound like he’s the hero of the story. And obvly, you n bate about whether Gatsby is technilly a hero or not. But I thk the book very effectively prents Gatsby as an nocent relative to all of the more sophistited and worldly figur that he’s up agast.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And dog that, I thk do this thg that Amerin culture do a lot of, which is Ameri don’t tst people who have money, but we really like people who are gettg money. There’s sort of a romance of acquisn Ameri where the acquisn of money is this sort of both admirable, but also somehow nocent pursu. And then once people have money, we’re like, oh, you’re rich and therefore untstworthy. And this is, I thk, one way that we try to rencile this impulse towards nocence and the sort of realy of acquisn. And we love characters who get a lot of money and then sort of lose stantly, the same way that we love Jay Gatsby.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I do thk we also have this affectn for people who get rich but still clg to kd of a kid’s ia of what rich is. So ’s not like Jay Gatsby got all this money and then set himself up as some kd of — some buildg at Harvard is named after him, and he’s very ede and go to the opera. Like, the du’s dog to get a girl. He buys all the fancy cloth. He throws all the ragg parti. And he’s still behavg like a lot of when we were kids. We’d be like, oh, my god, if I had all that money, I’d buy me a sports r and jt party all the time.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But ’s also a rejectn of where Ameri me om, the sort of ep, cultural nservatism of the old world, right, and this like remakg of somethg new and somethg different that rejects the sort of pomp and circumstance and is really about recreatg yourself as somethg pletely different om what me before.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I didn’t go to high school the Uned Stat. And so I didn’t read “Gatsby” till llege. And I knew was supposed to be sort of like the novel. But then I read this past summer wh my kids out loud. We read books together out loud.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They are three and five. So you were startg them early.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They are 15, 12, and now 10. And first of all, was great to read out loud, bee you absorb the bety of Fzgerald’s prose I thk more acutely when you’re readg out loud. But I’m tryg to thk of the reactns that my kids had to Gatsby. I thk that they were more ncerned about Gatsby’s greed than taken by his nocence. It seemed much harsher than had seemed to me on first readg. The kd of btaly of the story leapt out to my children. I mean, they’re young. That’s a generatnal divi, perhaps. But for them, was a much darker story.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Fzgerald’s my favore thor, so I read “Gatsby” every 4th of July weekend, as a matter of fact, bee ’s jt so short. You n s down and do . And a lot of is about the btaly of the Amerin myth. I mean, there’s a lot of blood and vlence and all kds of ugly thgs that we still have our mythology. And I thk that your kids have h upon an important pot there.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">See, ’s tertg bee, yeah, I had sort of the oppose approach om the Lozada children, which is that as a teenage rear, obvly, you don’t read the book and e away, thkg, oh, Jay Gatsby, role mol for the young, right? Thgs obvly end very badly. But yeah, I felt this sort of ep affy for the absurd aspiratns. And as a rear, I felt like I had to sort of work. I mean, ’s all there, all the btaly you’re talkg about, Michelle.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But I had to sort of work to bee aware of bee I was ught up the ia that y, OK, this was a tragedy, but ’s a story where the myth and the aspiratn is somethg that I fd eply relatable. So I gus I’m the last te Amerin. And so we beat on, boats agast the current, borne back ceaselsly to Lydia Polgreen. Lydia, what is your Amerin artifact?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, I’m glad you mentned boats bee boats actually feature que promently my Amerin artifact. And I feel like me is a ltle down market, which perhaps is on brand for me. I cid to wre about “Survivor.” It is a realy televisn show, and I thk that the basic stcture of is really well known by now. You have a group of strangers who are thrown together an exotic lole and wh very ltle to help them make their life. And the goal is that they’re gog to sentially create this new society.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And over the urse of the petn, they vote each other off. And the great sort of brilliant twist of the show is at the end, the wner is chosen by the people that the nttants have voted off. So ’s this kd of brilliant enpsulatn of Amerin society this weird way that you’d thk, OK, the people go to an island, and they do all the physil challeng. Therefore, big, strong guys are always gog to w this petn. But no, the big, strong guys bee targets bee people talk amongst themselv, and they say, that guy is too powerful physilly. We need to get rid of him. And they vote him off.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Or bee there are all the puzzl and different challeng, there’ll be somebody who’s like a rocket scientist, and they’ll say, well, that guy is fely gog to be awome at all of the puzzl and challeng, so let’s vote him off. That’s sort of the Amerinns of this show, is this ia that you w by not drawg too much attentn to yourself. And then at the end, you manage to somehow get the people who you have ejected om the show and prived of that ln dollar prize to see that you are the savvy, smart person who outwted them, outplayed them, and outlasted them, but that they n’t help but admire for the skill wh which you’ve played the game.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So that feels very — I don’t know — feels very Amerin. And I’ll nfs, I started watchg aga durg the panmic, part bee I thk my wife and I reached the very end of every premium streamg service. And so, out of speratn, we reached back to this show. But watchg the seasons, you really also get this sense of how Amerin society has transformed. And ’s not a kd of sanized versn of . There are seasons of “Survivor” where they lerally p people of different rac agast one another, right? So there’s the Asian-Amerins, the Latos, the Blacks, and the wh.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Like explicly?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Explicly! No, and so ’s the cdy of how this unfolds that I thk you get this credible portra of how people actually live. Anyway, ’s jt a fascatg document. And for me, as a person who spent a good chunk of my life outsi of the Uned Stat, and particularly the perd that “Survivor” was on, right? Like, I went abroad 2004 and me back 2014, I gus. And so I missed a lot. And this was a really tertg way to tch up on the thgs that I missed. Yeah, so “Survivor.” Check out.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I never saw . I’ve never seen a sgle episo of “Survivor.” And I didn’t know until this moment the kd of built- retributn of the show, which strik me as extraordary, right?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s brilliant.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I knew people that got voted off the island bee gettg voted off the island beme an exprsn popular culture outsi of the show. And so the notn that the people who got kicked off first then make the ultimate cisn the show strik me as this extraordary form of vengeance that now mak me wish I had seen this more.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And feels very Amerin.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right, well, you uld say ’s jt a very, very dark crique of mocracy self, that on the one hand, the way Lydia was sayg ’s like you w a mocracy by explog everyone else whout actually maniftg your own greatns, right? You need to pretend to be jt an ordary, simple everyman or everywoman.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And then at a certa pot, even though is apparent that you have exploed everyone, nohels, their choice is between two exploers at the end, and they’re jt sort of sayg, this is the exploer who I want to have a beer wh, right?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, and yeah —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What is this? This is the first season, right? The snake and the rat?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, so there’s this legendary moment where Sue Hawk, who’s like the third nner-up, I gus, has to choose between the two fal nttants. And she giv this stem-wr of a speech durg the tribal uncil, where she basilly says, I have to choose between a snake and a rat. But nature —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Wow.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— the snake eats the rat, and so she chose Richard Hatch, who went on to be a real super villa a lot of different ways. He was kd of a master manipulator and on the show, I thk very quickly picked up on the strategic possibili and the ways to be very nasty.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But he’s also really tertg bee, I mean, this show me out 2000. He was an openly gay man. And one of the other nttants was a former Navy SEAL named Rudy, who was really sort of openly homophobic, who, over the urse of the season, really me to be close wh Richard Hatch and admire him. And so that’s kd of what I mean about this like slow social transformatn Ameri, that was happeng a way that feels anic and te to the way that we, as a society, have slowly and elegantly wined the circle of cln. And so ’s a really fascatg mirror of those trends.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">“Survivor” was a forenner of a lot of btally petive realy shows, right?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, no, absolutely. And I thk that really shaped the future of realy televisn so many different ways. And of urse, Mark Burt, who was the executive producer of “Survivor,” would later create “The Apprentice,” which was, as we all know —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">There’s no Tmp princy whout “The Apprentice.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">There’s no Tmp princy whout “The Apprentice.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, and so much about — I mean, this is to strengthen Lydia’s se. So much about our polics om Tmp onward is really better explaed if you had spent the 2000s watchg “Survivor,” “The Real Hoewiv” anchise, and “The Apprentice” than if you had been like most sort of ele journalists watchg prtige shows on HBO or somethg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Absolutely, and I would say that realy televisn was actually a great — really softened the ground for the anti-hero as hero, right? Bee ’s no fun to watch a realy petn where the nict guy ws, you know?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I mean, that’s the whole basis for the “Hoewiv” shows. You know what part you’re supposed to play. Oh, you’re gog to be the nasty one. You’re gog to be the sweet one. You’re gog to be the nrotic one. And —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s also how they pched the show to , so tread refully, Michelle.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I have the memo, Ross. I know who you’re supposed to be. So ’s absolutely one of those thgs where the nastit villas are the most fun to watch.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, and you’re always placg yourself the game, right? And havg your fantasy versn of playg “Survivor,” and ’s fun to remember that ’s fundamentally a game. And who don’t love gam? All right, let’s take a break, and when we e back, Carlos, I want to hear om you.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">You got .</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Hey, “Matter of Opn” listeners. Last week, we asked you to send a voicemail wh your summer readg remendatns. If you didn’t get to , ’s not too late. Maybe ’s a favore book you reread each year or ’s the new book you’re most exced to read on the beach. Tell what you remend for a great summer read and why by leavg a voicemail at 212-556-7470. We may share your remendatn an upg episo.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And we’re back. Carlos, your turn. Tell what f Ameri for you.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I wrote about a seri of children’s books that I read when I was probably like the fourth gra lled “The Great Bra.” They were stori of the one Catholic fay growg up this small Mormon town, kd of a mg town, Utah. And the thor, JD Fzgerald, another Fzgerald for today, is kd of the adorg younger brother this fay, who looks up to the middle brother, Tom, known as TD Fzgerald. TD, he had a great bra. He was smarter than all the kids and most of the adults, and he would never stop tellg you about . He also had a money lovg heart.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And when you be a great bra and a money lovg heart, you get the youngt n man the state of Utah. And for me, TD was Ameri. I was like — I was JD. I was the youngt of three an immigrant fay, feelg like outsirs where we were growg up Northern California.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And TD was the mol of what this place was supposed to be. He was greedy. He would swdle the kids town out of their money and their posssns, but he would also save the day. He would e his great bra to solve a bank robbery the town. He would exact vengeance on a really nasty schoolteacher, Mr. Standish. And so he’s always kd of nflicted between his pletely self-servg impuls, and yet his impulse toward a kd of llective solidary, which I thk is the Amerin dilemma.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">When the kids Anville fally have enough — they’re sick of all the swdl — they’re sick of all the tricks TD’s pullg — they do the most Amerin thg — they put him on trial. They put him on trial the Fzgerald barn. It’s book 5 of the seri. And TD realiz for the first time how people felt about him. And he’s like, I thought I was jt g my great bra to kd of outsmart people. But I never realized that kd of ma you hate me. And he tells the judge, who’s a kid high school who wants to go to law school, that I hope that the thgs I’ve done that you all are puttg me on trial for n be balanced by the other si of the ledger the way that I’ve also helped this muny.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I thk when I read this wh my children now, I hope that they don’t jt see the hilar stori of life late 19th century Utah. I hope they also see that TD’s dilemma is theirs, is the natn’s dilemma. And somehow, when this assignment me up my email, I stantaneoly knew I had to wre about “The Great Bra.”</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That is a tremendo choice bee I read those books as a kid. Those books are amazg. I actually jt got two of them for our olst dghter —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[LAUGHS]: Wow.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— who proceed to swdle me out of somethg, I thk, the urse of the transactn. But I don’t have a lot to add, except a strong endorsement and also to note that between Jay Gatsby, Richard Hatch, and TD Fzgerald, we have tablished a clear pattern that they’re not all n artists exactly, but the ia of the nfince man, the figure who is swdlg you, but you like them some way. You’re sympathetic to what they’re dog. Like, that jt seems really, really Amerin.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And obvly, TD is a more sympathetic versn than the once and future print of the Uned Stat, Donald Tmp. But I thk if we had Donald Tmp on this podst and put him on trial, he would want to talk about all the good thgs that he did, too.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Book 6 of “The Great Bra” seri ends wh JD, the younger brother, sayg, I’m sure that someday our fay will eher vis Tom the Whe Hoe or prison.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And why not both?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Or both? Yeah.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly. Why choose? Y.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I like that, though, as a msage for kids bee I do thk one thg that is important is to get the msage across early that people are plited. They’re not all good or all bad. And this is somethg that grownups have a real problem wh, pecially my field when you’re verg polics, the ia that they’re not jt the one-dimensnal villas that aren’t on your si, that there is somethg reemg people even that you have real problems wh. So I actually kd of like that the are plited characters.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">One of the drivg stori and qutns of the whole seri is, will TD fally make good? Will he end up beg a good guy, you know? And Book 5 is lled “The Great Bra Reforms.” But I love that starts when Utah officially jos the natn, right, as a state bee I felt that was like TD steppg and kd of makg this whole place his. All right, that was me and “The Great Bra.” Michelle, take home.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">All right. See, I’m not gog for an anti-hero or anybody super ntroversial. I wanted to pick somethg, or rather someone, who reprents the sunny and optimistic versn of Ameri. You know I grew up the South, so I had to go wh Dolly Parton. Mil legend.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Legend.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So most basilly, she is the embodiment of the Amerin dream — smart, savvy, self-ma. She’s got one of those scrappy, up-om-nothg backstori that Ameri jt lov to tell about self. And then she transformed herself to this over-the-top character wh the towerg platum wigs and stum and lots of ge and spangl. She went all on the extremely Amerin ia that bigger is better, whether you’re talkg about boobs or hair.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And that one way, she’s like Donald Tmp, but no other, she’s not aggrieved or fensive. She don’t make anyone feel ls than her. Her work speaks to the people who feel they don’t f . And she’s long been this towerg queer in. And she mostly aims to be largely apolil.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And she fds partisan squabblg, she don’t like that, which is really what most Amerins thk about partisan squabblg. But she sts as like this matter of down home, mon sense, and cency. Like when she took the word “Dixie” out of the name of one of her supper theaters, she’s like, as soon as you realize there’s a problem, you need to fix . Quote, “Don’t be a dumbass.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So, and the heat of the vacce wars, she ma a vio of herself gettg the shot and sgg this pro-vacce dty to the tune of like her h song, “Jolene.” And I’m gog to butcher this, but she went like, (SINGING) vacce, vacce, vacce, vacce. I’m beggg of you. Please don’t hate. All right, so [INAUDIBLE].</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So, OK. OK.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[LAUGHING]:</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What, Ross?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So I —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Don’t you be hatg on her.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, I mean, you have created this tense ternal nflict me bee I agree wh everythg you said about Dolly, except that I thought all vacce-related pop culture ksch was horrible. But then I was so imprsed by your rendn —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">See?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">See? So I’m torn. I’m torn so many directns at once.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But culturally, she’s a red state phenomena, but the last several years, blue state Ameri has fallen totally love wh her by promptg all the stori about how she’s bee a livg sat. I don’t thk we need to go that far, but she is the bt versn of Ameri, like Ameri as fanci self to be.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s funny. When dog this project, I almost pched wrg about Dolly Parton, but om a very different angle. And that angle was that untry mic, I believe, is the sort of universal mic, jt like Bollywood cema is the universal cema. Like taps to sort of like the re atomic un of human feelg. And I have seen Dolly Parton’s songs performed untri all around the world the most random, random suatns. I mean, at a refugee mp, a band together and is playg “Jolene.”</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so I thk that there is somethg not jt Amerin, but kd of like universally jt wonrful about Dolly Parton and about untry mic general, but specifilly about Dolly Parton. And I do thk that her abily to uch the thgs that she believ and the thgs that she r about as mon sense is also like really, really eply Amerin. And we have a lot of nversatns and arguments and bat about polil rrectns and what you n and n’t say.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But I thk a lot of the disput are really jt about what we ed to ll manners, that you ll people by the name that they ask to be lled and you treat people wh rpect. And manners n be ed lots of different ways. They n also be ed to enforce social s and keep change om happeng. But ’s good to be remd by a figure like Dolly Parton of what really matters how we treat one another and what we celebrate.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I love the sort of serendipo orr which we discs the bee if “The Great Gatsby” and “Survivor” and “The Great Bra” do such a good job of pturg the tensns of Ameri, which is I thk why we chose them, Dolly Parton is an example of what n try to une Ameri and try to not pretend those tensns don’t exist, but kd of put them their proper perspective place. And we got to hear Michelle sg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m gog to be here all week, folks. Tip your waers.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Tip your waers. [MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">All right, folks, let’s take another break. And when we’re back, Lydia has this week’s hot, ld.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And we’re back. Lydia, what’s your hot, ld?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s actually a batn of somethg I’m very hot on and also another thg that I’m extremely ld on, but they’re related. So I have been readg a book. It’s lled “Paved Paradise.” It’s by —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Oh, ’s really good! Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— Henry Grabar. Oh, that’s OK. I love the enthiasm, Carlos. And ’s a book about parkg, which do not necsarily sound like a page turner, but what I realized, readg this book, was jt how much parkg is g our liv and g Ameri. It’s full of amazg facts about how much space parkg tak up, how many rourc parkg tak up.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">There are thgs like we build more three-r garag than one-bedroom apartments. Every r spends 95 percent of s lifpan parked. There are also funny anecdot, like there was a man Park Cy, Utah who lled 911 bee he uldn’t fd a parkg space. I mean, we’ve all been there. You know, ’s tratg. And no one is immune to vetg parkg. Apparently, Mother Tera asked Cy Hall to dite two parkg spots for her and her sisters at the AIDS hospice that she had the Wt Village.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So turns out that parkg is a huge, powerful force that we don’t thk about that much, but is actually g our liv. So I am very pro this book, very hot on “Paved Paradise” by Henry Grabar, and I am very down on parkg.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">My fay recently moved back om the suburbs to DC proper. And our hoe wh parkg. But of urse, people are always parkg our parkg plac. And so I will jt stand at my back door and glare at their rs and image all the thgs I’m gog to throw at them. And if they happen to e out while I’m outsi, I’m like, you! You nnot park there! That is my parkg space!</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And to that, I say quad erat monstratum. I mean, you’ve proved the pot of that book.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I am that person right there.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I am not ashamed to adm .</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I will only say that any crique of parkg for those of wh somewhat substantial numbers of children unr the age of 12 has to e wh some kd of mivan rve-out bee all theori of the rls utopia where the r is only there the 5 percent of the time when you actually need and so on have to reckon wh the realy that when you have a lot of kids, your mivan is effectively an extensn of your home, a sort of mobile reprentative —</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Storage un.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">— field and a central storage un, the only way you n possibly go certa plac and do certa thgs. And so, while I accept the crique, still is the se that I got to park my mivan somewhere.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">rlos lozada</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Ross, we’re a Toyota Sienna fay. What are you?</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, we’re Sienna’s.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No, we’re Honda.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Well, will surprise no one that I drive a Suba Outback.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">No ment, Lydia.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">lydia polgreen</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Livg up to the cliché.</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">michelle ttle</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">I’m not takg that ba. Jt not.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd><dt class="css-xx7kwh">ross douthat</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thanks for listeng. We shared our cultural artifacts on today’s episo. If you want to read what other New York Tim lumnists selected for their cultural artifacts, go to “Matter of Opn” is produced by Derek Arthur, Phoebe Lett, and Sophia Alvarez Boyd. It is eded by Stephanie Joyce. Our fact check team is Kate Sclair, Mary Marge Locker, and Michelle Harris. Origal mic by Isaac Jon, Efim Shapiro, Carole Sabourd, and Pat McCker. Mixg by Pat McCker. Audience strategy by Shannon Bta and Krista Samulewski. Our executive producer is Annie-Rose Strasser.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p></dd></dl></div></div></div></div><div style="posn:absolute;width:0;height:0;visibily:hidn;display:none"></div><hear class="css-1vwfk9f" data-breakpot=""><div style="width:100%" data-ttid="flt-layout"><div style="background-image:url()" class="css-197zlhc e1llfg0"><div class="css-1hmsypo e1llfg2"><div class="css-131hid3 e1llfg3"><div class="css-1uhi299 e1llfg1"></div><div class="css-1tloyb6"><div class="css-ah35qo ehra6vc0"><a href=" class="css-2ne0py"><span class="css-1f76qa2"><img alt="Matter of Opn logo" src="><span>Matter of Opn</span></span></a></div></div><div class="css-1r0dpua e1llfg4"><div class="css-wfiq9c edye5kn0"><div><h1 class="css-15oz550 edye5kn2">Ameri, Shall I Compare Thee to a Chevy Volt?</h1><h2 class="css-syyj5g edye5kn3">Move over, apple pie. 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