The HBO doceri Last Call digs to the hunt for a serial killer who targeted gay men New York the early '90s—and why the victims were almost lost to history.
Contents:
- STREAM IT OR SKIP IT: ‘LAST CALL: WHEN A SERIAL KILLER STALKED QUEER NEW YORK’ ON HBO, A DOCERI THAT TAK A LOOK AT 1990S POLICE INDIFFERENCE IN THE FACE OF GAY MEN GETTG MURRED
- THE SERIAL KILLER WHO PREYED UPON GAY NEW YORKERSMONSTROUSHBO’S DOCERI “LAST CALL” TELLS THE CHILLG STORY OF A STRG OF ANTI-LGBT MURRS ’90S NYC—AND MANAG TO HONOR THE VICTIMS THE PROCS.NICK SCHAGERENTERTAMENT CRICUPDATED JUL. 08, 2023 3:16AM EDT / PUBLISHED JUL. 07, 2023 8:30PM EDT COURTY OF HBOLAST CALL: WHEN A SERIAL KILLER STALKED QUEER NEW YORK IS YET ANOTHER DISTURBG TE-CRIME DOCUMENTARY ABOUT A FIEND PREYG UPON A MARGALIZED MUNY. HOWEVER, THE PELLG HOOK OF ANTHONY CARONNA AND HOWARD GERTLER’S FOUR-PART HBO VTIGATN (JULY 9) IS THAT ’S BOTH A WHODUN AND A SOCLOGIL CRIQUE OF THE ERA AND ENVIRONMENT WHICH S TALE TOOK PLACE: EARLY 1990S NEW YORK CY, WHOSE CLIMATE OF HOMOPHOBIA FACILATED S VILLA’S HOMICIS. WH ANTI-GAY AND TRANS LEGISLATN CURRENTLY SWEEPG THE NATN, ’S AN ALL-TOO-RELEVANT STORY ABOUT PERSECUTN AND VLENCE, AND THE WAY WHICH PUBLIC RHETORIC—AND ACTN—FOSTERS FURTHER HATE.DIRECTOR CARONNA’S SERI BEGS WH THE 1992 DISVERY BY MATENANCE WORKERS OF A DISMEMBERED BODY BURLGTON COUNTY, NEW JERSEY. CUT TO SEVEN PIEC, EACH OF THEM WRAPPED NEWSPAPER (AND A SHOWER CURTA) AND PACKED TO DIFFERENT TRASH BAGS, THIS DIVIDUAL WAS—VIA HIS BRIEFSE AND PERSONAL BELONGGS—SWIFTLY INTIFIED AS THOMAS MULHY, A 57-YEAR-OLD HBAND AND FATHER WHO WAS THE AREA FOR A BS MEETG. DETECTIV ALSO FOUND LATEX GLOV, A PASS SAW, AND A LEN SHEET THE PLASTIC BAGS, ONE OF WHICH WAS EVENTUALLY TRACED BACK TO STATEN ISLAND’S LONE CVS. OTHERWISE, HOWEVER, THERE WAS LTLE EFUL PHYSIL EVINCE PROCURED OM THE EMS, SO PS SHIFTED THEIR ATTENTN TO MULHY’S MOVEMENTS THE DAYS AND HOURS LEADG UP TO HIS MURR. AS THEY SOON LEARNED, MULHY HAD LAST BEEN SEEN ON JULY 8, 1992, AT MIDTOWN MANHATTAN’S TOWNHOE BAR, AN UPSLE GAY WATERG HOLE WHERE OLR WELL-TO-DO GENTLEMEN OFTEN MET YOUNGER SUORS. DOUGLAS GIBSON REMEMBERS TALKG TO MULHY THAT EVENG AND SPYG AN UNKNOWN MAN HIS VICY, BUT HE DIDN’T GET A GOOD ENOUGH LOOK AT THIS STRANGER TO PROVI AN ACTUAL SCRIPTN. COPS, MEANWHILE, FOUND DIFFICULT TO NVCE PEOPLE AND AROUND THIS TABLISHMENT TO TALK TO THEM, SCE 1992, THE RELATNSHIP BETWEEN THE POLICE AND THE GAY MUNY WAS FED BY DISTST, IF NOT OUTRIGHT ANTIPATHY, MUCH OF BORN OM THE FORMER’S HISTORY OF PREJUDICED HARASSMENT AND HOSTILY. IF THAT PROVED A SIGNIFINT HURDLE THE SE, SO TOO WAS LAW ENFORCEMENT’S STILL-LACKG TERPARTMENTAL MUNITNS, AND WAS THIS FAILURE THAT LAYED THEIR REALIZATN THAT MULHY’S MURR WAS PART OF A GHASTLY PATTERN.A YEAR EARLIER LANSTER COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA, THE SIARLY DISMEMBERED BODY OF PETER ANRSON HAD BEEN FOUND. LIKE MULHY, ANRSON WAS A CLOSETED GAY MAN, AND ON THE NIGHT OF HIS DISAPPEARANCE ON MAY 5, 1991, HE TOO HAD VISED THE TOWNHOE. WHEN VTIGATORS TO MULHY’S SLAYG HEARD ABOUT THIS, THEY KNEW THE TWO MURRS WERE LKED. WORSE, THEY WERE FOLLOWED BY THE NEARLY INTIL MURRS OF 44-YEAR-OLD PROSTUTE ANTHONY MARRERO ( MAY 1993) AND OF 55-YEAR-OLD GREENWICH VILLAGE RINT MICHAEL SAKARA ( JULY 1993), THE LATTER OF WHOM WAS A REGULAR AND WELL-KNOWN STAPLE AT THE FIVE OAKS BAR. CLEARLY, SOMEONE WAS KILLG GAY MEN AFTER MEETG THEM AT CLUBS, AND BEE OF HIS MOD OPERANDI, THE ASSAILANT WAS DUBBED BY THE NEW YORK DAILY NEWS AS THE “LAST CALL KILLER.” STILL OM LAST CALL: WHEN A SERIAL KILLER STALKED QUEER NEW YORKHBO LAST CALL IS, ON THE ONE HAND, A TRADNAL SPENSEFUL MYSTERY, WH VAR POLICE OFFICERS DISCSG THEIR EFFORTS TO PIECE TOGETHER CLU AND UNRSTAND THEIR VICTIMS’ BACKSTORI ORR TO LOTE A SPECT. JT AS PTIVATG, THOUGH, ’S A VIVID SNAPSHOT OF S PARTICULAR MOMENT, NARRATED LARGE PART BY TWO DIVIDUALS WHO WERE ON THE ONTL OF THE FIGHT FOR EQUAL LGTBQ+ RIGHTS: THE NEW YORK GAY & LBIAN ANTI-VLENCE PROJECT’S BEA HANSON AND MATT FOREMAN. RELLG A TIME WHEN GAY AMERINS WERE BOTH EMERGG OM THE SHADOWS FORCE (PECIALLY NYC) AND FACG CREASED ANTAGONISM AND THREATS (CLUDG OM THE RAGG AIDS EPIMIC), HANSON AND FOREMAN OFFER TIMATE AND PASSNATE FIRST-HAND ACUNTS OF THE CULTURAL AND POLIL ATMOSPHERE OF THE EARLY ’90S. IN DOG SO, THEY HELP NTEXTUALIZE THE MURRS AS AN OUTGROWTH OF THE LONG-STANDG BTALY THAT GAY (AND TRANS) MEN AND WOMEN FACED ON A DAILY BASIS. EMPLOYG PLENTIFUL ARCHIVAL MATERIAL, LAST CALL IS A SIMULTANEOLY VIBRANT AND SORROWFUL LOOK BACKWARDS, S NOSTALGIA FOR THE BURGEONG GAY MOVEMENT LORED BY THE FEAR THAT SO MANY FELT BEE OF HOMOPHOBIA AND THE MORTAL DANGER POSED—AS WELL AS THE ANGER THAT WAS A DIRECT BYPRODUCT OF BEG IGNORED, SLANRED, AND OPPRSED. DIRECTOR CARONNA’S SERI HONTLY AND PASSNATELY REVISS THE PAST, PUTTG A NUANCED FACE ON PEOPLE WHO WERE SO OFTEN DISMISSED, DISRD, AND RCED TO UNFLATTERG STEREOTYP, CLUDG MULHY, ANRSON, MARRERO, AND SAKARA. FEATURG TERVIEWS WH IENDS, LOVERS, AND RELATIV OF THE FOUR MEN WHOSE LIV WERE HORRIFILLY CUT SHORT BY A MADMAN, REMEMBERS—AND CELEBRAT—THEM NOT AS STATISTICS, BUT AS FLH-AND-BLOOD DIVIDUALS. STILL OM LAST CALL: WHEN A SERIAL KILLER STALKED QUEER NEW YORKHBO IN SEPARATE TERVIEWS WH DIFFERENT TECTIV, LAST CALL HIGHLIGHTS POLICE OFFICERS’ IGNORANCE ABOUT THE GAY MUNY AND THEIR RETICENCE TO RELATE TO THE MURRS. SUCH BLDNS, WHETHER WILLFUL OR NOT, FEELS AT LEAST SOMEWHAT NNECTED TO THE SERI’ OWN LIBERATE DISMISSAL OF THE FACT THAT THE KILLER—WHO, THROUGH MORN FGERPRT ANALYSIS, WAS INTIFIED AS MOUNT SAI NURSE RICHARD ROGERS JR.—WAS ALSO A GAY MAN. THERE’S A PERSISTENT SENSE, OM ALL ANGL, THAT TOLERANCE (AND FEAR OF VILIFITN) HAS REPEATEDLY TRATED ATTEMPTS TO SOLVE, AND PREHEND, THIS TRAGEDY, AND THE FACT THAT ROGERS NEVER OPENED UP ABOUT HIS MOTIVATNS ONLY FURTHER LEAV THGS FEELG PRSGLY MURKY.WHAT REMAS CLEAR, THOUGH, IS ROGERS’ GUILT. HAVG BEEN PREVLY ACQUTED OF KILLG HIS LLEGE ROOMMATE AND, YEARS LATER, OF ASSLTG ANOTHER MAN, THE QUIET AND SOFT-SPOKEN MEDIL PROFSNAL WAS UNDOUBTEDLY THE SERIAL CULPR THORI HAD SOUGHT. NO MATTER THE QUTNS ABOUT JURISDICTN THAT AROSE AT TRIAL, HE WAS JTLY SENTENCED TO TWO NSECUTIVE LIFE SENTENC, ENDG A REIGN OF TERROR THAT—DUE TO HIS HAB OF TAKG ROUTE TRIPS AROUND THE UNTRY—MAY HAVE CLUD MANY MORE UNKNOWN VICTIMS. HE WAS, BY ALL ACUNTS, A MONSTER SEEMGLY WHOUT REMORSE, AND LAST CALL IS SHARPT WHEN POSS HIM AS THE RULT OF A SOCIETY THAT MONIZ WH MALIC TENT (BE ANA BRYANT THE ’70S OR RON DESANTIS TODAY) AND, THE PROCS, SPIR EVABLE CELTY. NICK SCHAGER
- SERIAL KILLER DOCERI 'LAST CALL' RECKONS WH NYC'S HISTORY OF ANTI-GAY VLENCE
- MY SON WAS MURRED BY GAY SERIAL KILLER – I SHOULD HAVE SAVED HIS OTHER VICTIMS, SAYS MUM WHO SPIRED ‘FOUR LIV’
STREAM IT OR SKIP IT: ‘LAST CALL: WHEN A SERIAL KILLER STALKED QUEER NEW YORK’ ON HBO, A DOCERI THAT TAK A LOOK AT 1990S POLICE INDIFFERENCE IN THE FACE OF GAY MEN GETTG MURRED
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Directed by Anthony Caronna and executive produced by Howard Gertler om Elon Green’s 2021 nonfictn book, “Last Call” pulls back the curta on the killg spree of Richard Rogers, a male nurse who, as far back as the 1980s and until 2001 when he was eventually ught by thori, targeted gay men New York and New Jersey. (Prr, 1973, he was acquted of killg his llege hoemate what he alleged was a f of gay panic.
Beneath the grislier aspects tailed the seri — Rogers’ mod operandi volved dismemberment and strewg body parts around the Tri-State Area — is also an evotive snapshot of gay New York the early 1990s. Rogers also picked up and murred Thomas Richard Mulhy, a married father of four who lived an unrver gay life and whose dghter reunts touchg memori of him.
THE SERIAL KILLER WHO PREYED UPON GAY NEW YORKERSMONSTROUSHBO’S DOCERI “LAST CALL” TELLS THE CHILLG STORY OF A STRG OF ANTI-LGBT MURRS ’90S NYC—AND MANAG TO HONOR THE VICTIMS THE PROCS.NICK SCHAGERENTERTAMENT CRICUPDATED JUL. 08, 2023 3:16AM EDT / PUBLISHED JUL. 07, 2023 8:30PM EDT COURTY OF HBOLAST CALL: WHEN A SERIAL KILLER STALKED QUEER NEW YORK IS YET ANOTHER DISTURBG TE-CRIME DOCUMENTARY ABOUT A FIEND PREYG UPON A MARGALIZED MUNY. HOWEVER, THE PELLG HOOK OF ANTHONY CARONNA AND HOWARD GERTLER’S FOUR-PART HBO VTIGATN (JULY 9) IS THAT ’S BOTH A WHODUN AND A SOCLOGIL CRIQUE OF THE ERA AND ENVIRONMENT WHICH S TALE TOOK PLACE: EARLY 1990S NEW YORK CY, WHOSE CLIMATE OF HOMOPHOBIA FACILATED S VILLA’S HOMICIS. WH ANTI-GAY AND TRANS LEGISLATN CURRENTLY SWEEPG THE NATN, ’S AN ALL-TOO-RELEVANT STORY ABOUT PERSECUTN AND VLENCE, AND THE WAY WHICH PUBLIC RHETORIC—AND ACTN—FOSTERS FURTHER HATE.DIRECTOR CARONNA’S SERI BEGS WH THE 1992 DISVERY BY MATENANCE WORKERS OF A DISMEMBERED BODY BURLGTON COUNTY, NEW JERSEY. CUT TO SEVEN PIEC, EACH OF THEM WRAPPED NEWSPAPER (AND A SHOWER CURTA) AND PACKED TO DIFFERENT TRASH BAGS, THIS DIVIDUAL WAS—VIA HIS BRIEFSE AND PERSONAL BELONGGS—SWIFTLY INTIFIED AS THOMAS MULHY, A 57-YEAR-OLD HBAND AND FATHER WHO WAS THE AREA FOR A BS MEETG. DETECTIV ALSO FOUND LATEX GLOV, A PASS SAW, AND A LEN SHEET THE PLASTIC BAGS, ONE OF WHICH WAS EVENTUALLY TRACED BACK TO STATEN ISLAND’S LONE CVS. OTHERWISE, HOWEVER, THERE WAS LTLE EFUL PHYSIL EVINCE PROCURED OM THE EMS, SO PS SHIFTED THEIR ATTENTN TO MULHY’S MOVEMENTS THE DAYS AND HOURS LEADG UP TO HIS MURR. AS THEY SOON LEARNED, MULHY HAD LAST BEEN SEEN ON JULY 8, 1992, AT MIDTOWN MANHATTAN’S TOWNHOE BAR, AN UPSLE GAY WATERG HOLE WHERE OLR WELL-TO-DO GENTLEMEN OFTEN MET YOUNGER SUORS. DOUGLAS GIBSON REMEMBERS TALKG TO MULHY THAT EVENG AND SPYG AN UNKNOWN MAN HIS VICY, BUT HE DIDN’T GET A GOOD ENOUGH LOOK AT THIS STRANGER TO PROVI AN ACTUAL SCRIPTN. COPS, MEANWHILE, FOUND DIFFICULT TO NVCE PEOPLE AND AROUND THIS TABLISHMENT TO TALK TO THEM, SCE 1992, THE RELATNSHIP BETWEEN THE POLICE AND THE GAY MUNY WAS FED BY DISTST, IF NOT OUTRIGHT ANTIPATHY, MUCH OF BORN OM THE FORMER’S HISTORY OF PREJUDICED HARASSMENT AND HOSTILY. IF THAT PROVED A SIGNIFINT HURDLE THE SE, SO TOO WAS LAW ENFORCEMENT’S STILL-LACKG TERPARTMENTAL MUNITNS, AND WAS THIS FAILURE THAT LAYED THEIR REALIZATN THAT MULHY’S MURR WAS PART OF A GHASTLY PATTERN.A YEAR EARLIER LANSTER COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA, THE SIARLY DISMEMBERED BODY OF PETER ANRSON HAD BEEN FOUND. LIKE MULHY, ANRSON WAS A CLOSETED GAY MAN, AND ON THE NIGHT OF HIS DISAPPEARANCE ON MAY 5, 1991, HE TOO HAD VISED THE TOWNHOE. WHEN VTIGATORS TO MULHY’S SLAYG HEARD ABOUT THIS, THEY KNEW THE TWO MURRS WERE LKED. WORSE, THEY WERE FOLLOWED BY THE NEARLY INTIL MURRS OF 44-YEAR-OLD PROSTUTE ANTHONY MARRERO ( MAY 1993) AND OF 55-YEAR-OLD GREENWICH VILLAGE RINT MICHAEL SAKARA ( JULY 1993), THE LATTER OF WHOM WAS A REGULAR AND WELL-KNOWN STAPLE AT THE FIVE OAKS BAR. CLEARLY, SOMEONE WAS KILLG GAY MEN AFTER MEETG THEM AT CLUBS, AND BEE OF HIS MOD OPERANDI, THE ASSAILANT WAS DUBBED BY THE NEW YORK DAILY NEWS AS THE “LAST CALL KILLER.” STILL OM LAST CALL: WHEN A SERIAL KILLER STALKED QUEER NEW YORKHBO LAST CALL IS, ON THE ONE HAND, A TRADNAL SPENSEFUL MYSTERY, WH VAR POLICE OFFICERS DISCSG THEIR EFFORTS TO PIECE TOGETHER CLU AND UNRSTAND THEIR VICTIMS’ BACKSTORI ORR TO LOTE A SPECT. JT AS PTIVATG, THOUGH, ’S A VIVID SNAPSHOT OF S PARTICULAR MOMENT, NARRATED LARGE PART BY TWO DIVIDUALS WHO WERE ON THE ONTL OF THE FIGHT FOR EQUAL LGTBQ+ RIGHTS: THE NEW YORK GAY & LBIAN ANTI-VLENCE PROJECT’S BEA HANSON AND MATT FOREMAN. RELLG A TIME WHEN GAY AMERINS WERE BOTH EMERGG OM THE SHADOWS FORCE (PECIALLY NYC) AND FACG CREASED ANTAGONISM AND THREATS (CLUDG OM THE RAGG AIDS EPIMIC), HANSON AND FOREMAN OFFER TIMATE AND PASSNATE FIRST-HAND ACUNTS OF THE CULTURAL AND POLIL ATMOSPHERE OF THE EARLY ’90S. IN DOG SO, THEY HELP NTEXTUALIZE THE MURRS AS AN OUTGROWTH OF THE LONG-STANDG BTALY THAT GAY (AND TRANS) MEN AND WOMEN FACED ON A DAILY BASIS. EMPLOYG PLENTIFUL ARCHIVAL MATERIAL, LAST CALL IS A SIMULTANEOLY VIBRANT AND SORROWFUL LOOK BACKWARDS, S NOSTALGIA FOR THE BURGEONG GAY MOVEMENT LORED BY THE FEAR THAT SO MANY FELT BEE OF HOMOPHOBIA AND THE MORTAL DANGER POSED—AS WELL AS THE ANGER THAT WAS A DIRECT BYPRODUCT OF BEG IGNORED, SLANRED, AND OPPRSED. DIRECTOR CARONNA’S SERI HONTLY AND PASSNATELY REVISS THE PAST, PUTTG A NUANCED FACE ON PEOPLE WHO WERE SO OFTEN DISMISSED, DISRD, AND RCED TO UNFLATTERG STEREOTYP, CLUDG MULHY, ANRSON, MARRERO, AND SAKARA. FEATURG TERVIEWS WH IENDS, LOVERS, AND RELATIV OF THE FOUR MEN WHOSE LIV WERE HORRIFILLY CUT SHORT BY A MADMAN, REMEMBERS—AND CELEBRAT—THEM NOT AS STATISTICS, BUT AS FLH-AND-BLOOD DIVIDUALS. STILL OM LAST CALL: WHEN A SERIAL KILLER STALKED QUEER NEW YORKHBO IN SEPARATE TERVIEWS WH DIFFERENT TECTIV, LAST CALL HIGHLIGHTS POLICE OFFICERS’ IGNORANCE ABOUT THE GAY MUNY AND THEIR RETICENCE TO RELATE TO THE MURRS. SUCH BLDNS, WHETHER WILLFUL OR NOT, FEELS AT LEAST SOMEWHAT NNECTED TO THE SERI’ OWN LIBERATE DISMISSAL OF THE FACT THAT THE KILLER—WHO, THROUGH MORN FGERPRT ANALYSIS, WAS INTIFIED AS MOUNT SAI NURSE RICHARD ROGERS JR.—WAS ALSO A GAY MAN. THERE’S A PERSISTENT SENSE, OM ALL ANGL, THAT TOLERANCE (AND FEAR OF VILIFITN) HAS REPEATEDLY TRATED ATTEMPTS TO SOLVE, AND PREHEND, THIS TRAGEDY, AND THE FACT THAT ROGERS NEVER OPENED UP ABOUT HIS MOTIVATNS ONLY FURTHER LEAV THGS FEELG PRSGLY MURKY.WHAT REMAS CLEAR, THOUGH, IS ROGERS’ GUILT. HAVG BEEN PREVLY ACQUTED OF KILLG HIS LLEGE ROOMMATE AND, YEARS LATER, OF ASSLTG ANOTHER MAN, THE QUIET AND SOFT-SPOKEN MEDIL PROFSNAL WAS UNDOUBTEDLY THE SERIAL CULPR THORI HAD SOUGHT. NO MATTER THE QUTNS ABOUT JURISDICTN THAT AROSE AT TRIAL, HE WAS JTLY SENTENCED TO TWO NSECUTIVE LIFE SENTENC, ENDG A REIGN OF TERROR THAT—DUE TO HIS HAB OF TAKG ROUTE TRIPS AROUND THE UNTRY—MAY HAVE CLUD MANY MORE UNKNOWN VICTIMS. HE WAS, BY ALL ACUNTS, A MONSTER SEEMGLY WHOUT REMORSE, AND LAST CALL IS SHARPT WHEN POSS HIM AS THE RULT OF A SOCIETY THAT MONIZ WH MALIC TENT (BE ANA BRYANT THE ’70S OR RON DESANTIS TODAY) AND, THE PROCS, SPIR EVABLE CELTY. NICK SCHAGER
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There was also Michael Sakara, the mayor of Townhoe, who is warmly remembered by former employe of the bar and by his sister, who is also gay. In the harrowg send episo of “Last Call, ” which is primarily foced on Marrero and the fallout wh the unrground gay muny of his murr, one of Rogers’ alleged attempted victims speaks anonymoly about his bsh wh someone whose MO sounds closely like the killer’s.
SERIAL KILLER DOCERI 'LAST CALL' RECKONS WH NYC'S HISTORY OF ANTI-GAY VLENCE
The NYPD’s often futile pursu of him across the years turns the seri to a documentary thriller s fal stag — futile also bee of the police’s own seemgly homophobic refal to take the murrs more serly. In a timely harkeng to recent ntroversi surroundg The New York Tim’ verage of trans people, “Last Call” touch on the bias at the Tim and other New York media outlets that emed Rogers (before his inty was known) as the “gay-slay” killer obvly bee had a tchy, if--bleeds--leads rhyme to .
It turns out that the last place anyone saw Mulhy was an Upper East Si gay bar named The Townhoe, where olr, sophistited men met each other, or met younger men attracted to their type. Through extensive archival footage and terviews wh people who participated the AVP particular and New York’s gay scene general, we are remd of jt how dangero was for people who were jt beg themselv, ually via vlence perpetrated by people who ma a practice out of queer-bashg.
MY SON WAS MURRED BY GAY SERIAL KILLER – I SHOULD HAVE SAVED HIS OTHER VICTIMS, SAYS MUM WHO SPIRED ‘FOUR LIV’
But the realy is brought home by the members of AVP and Edgar Rodriguez, a former NYPD sergeant and a member of the Gay Officers Actn League, who discsed the rampant and open homophobia the partment, which was so severe that Rodriguez knew was unsafe for him to e out while he was a p.
This is illtrated a really tellg scene durg the terview wh the two Pennsylvania State Police, when the director asks them if he missed anythg durg the terview and one of them potedly says, “Why is the emphasis [of the terview] on the gay part?
” To them, the fact that Anrson was gay was irrelevant, but ’s important for a lot of reasons that they jt n’t wrap their mds around.